Battle of Endor (Space) analysis

frogcurry · Post by **frogcurry** » 2005-08-07 04:04pm

One point regarding Endor: the shield generator can't be put in too easily guarded a location or defended with any competence, or the Rebels wouldn't have attempted an attack. So in the woods, with poor local security, is the only option where the plan is going to work and tempt the rebels in to destroy it. Same as needing to have the Emperor in danger - to tempt the Rebels in attempting to kill him and his new weapon. No Palpatine might mean no Endor as the Rebel fleet might choose not to fight without that double prize for grabs.

The real mistake is not having a back-up shield generator that can take over if the first one was destroyed by the Rebel commandos the Emperor knew was coming. After all he wrote the script the rebel leadership was reading from, a second hidden generator wouldn't have been that hard to set up.

My personal preference though would be to let the shield be destroyed, switch the Death Star off and build lots of small reactors instead. And a fake power source in the centre.

result is that the rebel fleet is destroyed while smashing up the outside of the death star in a gunfight with the defense guns, while the fighters are flying round the inner structures wondering what to do when they discover there's no easily destroyed reactor in the core. Theres no need to use the superlaser, normal guns will kill them just as fast, as long as the fleet gets behind the rebels and pins them in. The rebels will let themselves be herded as long as it lets them attack the Death Star - after all they think its operational and the imperials are leaving the path wide open to strike its reactor...

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2005-08-07 05:40pm

RThurmont wrote:Even if the Imperial forces were not consciously or subconsciously aware of The Emperor's demise, they would have been hugely demoralized when the Death Star's planetary shield was eliminated. That in itself would likely induce a massive panic. The Executor crashing into the Death Star would escalate this, but honestly, I would be far more unnerved by the first event than the second. Without the planetary shield to protect it, the unfinished DS2 was a sitting duck.

I always thought this was the case. Once that shield went down, the Death Star was toast and Sidious with it -unless he could get out in time. The Falcon and her escorts were well on their merry way to the reactor while the Emperor was still alive. Only the most absurd level of Palp-wanking would even have a chance of saving the station.

RThurmont wrote:The main mistake on the part of the Empire clearly had nothing to do wiht the space battle, which was still badly mismanaged in typical Imperial Navy fashion, but rather had to do with the security measures at the planetary station. Hindsight is 20/20, but why didn't they locate the station out in the Yuzzum-infested savannas of Endor? Yuzzums are described in the EU as being a heck of a lot stupider than Ewoks, and there would be substantially less cover out in the grasslands for Rebel troops to hide in and plan ambushes.

Considering that Palpatine wanted the Rebels to find the generators, where they were placed didn't make much difference. The use of a tiny Rebel commando team was based on the forest cover. In the open plains, they might have tried some other scheme. Imperial security was also doomed thanks to Vader's attempts to win over Luke. Letting a squad of enemy commandoes anywhere near your base is utterly insane, even if you think you can squash them before they can do anything. If you don't kill them off immediately, they can and will tear you a new one. As with the space battle, the Empire took an all-or-nothing approach. They obviously didn't even think of a Plan B, let alone have one.

RThurmont wrote:Going back to the space battle, my big problem with the Imperial defence there, was why was the Executor allowed to maneuver so close to the Death Star? That was pretty dumb...they should have made a point of keeping the Imperial fleet as far away from the DS2 as possible to obviate the risk of either Rebel or Imperial ships colliding with it in the event of a shield failure. Also, keeping the fleet further away would probably make it easier for the superlaser to target a ship (that said, the Rebel's tactic of using Star Destroyers as shields against the superlaser was highly effective and would have negated that advantage).

They should have simply ordered their ships to close on the Rebels and use the Death Star's main gun to herd the Rebel ships toward the fleet, instead of the other way around. The Empire's decision to piss away its fighters was another huge blunder.

RThurmont wrote:In closing, hindsight really is 20/20, but one wonders how different things would be if the Emperor had focused more on destroying the Rebels and less on acting out his sadistic fantasies. I mean, why the fuck couldn't he have waited until after the battle to turn Luke Skywalker to the dark side?

Palpatine was hoping to needle Luke into lashing out. Picking apart the Rebel fleet seemed perfect for what he had in mind. Ewoks, Mon Calamaris, a Wookiee, some plucky Rebels, and a disgruntled, guilt-tripped Sith lord made him pay.

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-08-07 09:12pm

Elfdart wrote: I always thought this was the case. Once that shield went down, the Death Star was toast and Sidious with it -unless he could get out in time. The Falcon and her escorts were well on their merry way to the reactor while the Emperor was still alive. Only the most absurd level of Palp-wanking would even have a chance of saving the station.

See the novelization- it's possible that if he hadn't died the TIE response to the attack might've been better organized- the relevant part of the novel takes place after the Emperor's demise. Probably wouldn't have worked, but the notion that Palpatine wouldn't be able to escape in time, when Luke made it all the way to the hangar toting an immobile Darth Vader, is silly.

RThurmont · Post by **RThurmont** » 2005-08-07 11:06pm

Wow, this thread has become a really great discussion.

I personally like the suggestion of having backup shield generators...however, if memory serves the shield generator that was destroyed was a fairly large affair, towering above the forest. It would probably be difficult to conceal such a system.

Also, how closely was the Rebel attack predicated on the vulnerability of the shield system? We know that Han and company were not aware of the back door until they found it. I am not at all sure that a lower vulnerability of the shield generator would dissuade the rebels from attacking. In fact, one could argue that they would have to attack regardless of how heavily guarded the planetary station was, because if the Death Star II was completed, the Rebel Alliance's goals would be seriously comprimised.

That said, Palpatine being responsible for the weak defences of the shielding system would be logical, considering that the Imperial Army throughout the series tends not to make nearly as many major blunders as the Navy, and clearly, the guarding of the shield station could be viewed as a major blunder.

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2005-08-07 11:20pm

The shield was down and Red and Gold groups had already turned toward the Death Star before Sidious had even started zapping Luke. Palpatine's chance to turn things around outside had come and gone. It was only a matter of seconds before Wedge, Lando and the other Rebels entered the chute, rendering the surface guns useless against them. With the Falcon effectively screening the fighters chasing them away from Wedge, the TIEs couldn't do much, either.

Sure, Palps most likely would have escaped -only to have lost the Death Star, and with it, the battle.

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-08-08 01:21am

Elfdart wrote:The shield was down and Red and Gold groups had already turned toward the Death Star before Sidious had even started zapping Luke.

The novelization places the comment about the disorganized Imperial fighter response after the Emperor's death. Considering that they hadn't even entered the superstructure before Palpatine was dead (and we don't know how long after that was- between the "all fighters follow me" and the sequence of them about to enter the superstructure, that "horde" of Rebel fighters because a handful, and the novelization describes the Rebel fighters traversing from the finished to the unfinished side of the Death Star to even enter.

Palpatine's chance to turn things around outside had come and gone.

Palpatine doesn't have to actively do anything- it's his death that caused the problem, not some active action on his part.

It was only a matter of seconds before Wedge, Lando and the other Rebels entered the chute, rendering the surface guns useless against them. With the Falcon effectively screening the fighters chasing them away from Wedge, the TIEs couldn't do much, either.

The pursuing TIEs mostly didn't even fire. The majority of them in fact foolishly chased the wrong fighters on the way back to the surface instead of continuing the pursuit against the real threat (Wedge and Lando).

Sure, Palps most likely would have escaped -only to have lost the Death Star, and with it, the battle.

Not really. Even with the Death Star lost, the Imperial fleet could still have won, but a very high price.

el blanco · Post by **el blanco** » 2005-08-09 09:01pm

Is there any reliable reference to the size of the two fleets. I thought the novel mentioned that the Rebels held the actual numbers advantage, but I don't have it with me.

Anyway, what I think Palpy should have done is put his arrival off for a week so the DS II could have its own shield generator installed. This way, once the Endor base was destroyed, you could let the Rebel fleet get closer and then turn on the reserve sheild. What kind of kick to the gut would that be to the Rebel fleet?