Clonetrooper tactics at Geonosis

[Isolder74]

One of the main problems with the battle of the Somme was the fact that Generals on both sides assumed that artillery wouls destroy all defenses that would slow down their troops. The Charges had fixed bayonets but they also were expected to make use of their rifles. In taking a trench the only weapon really good for doing so was the bayonet. The Sub machine gun was only the other real alternitive.

Sadly the only way to take a trench was to get men into it.

Or use grenades.

The trenches had side bunkers where men could find cover from the grenades but they do help

[Stuart Mackey]

One of the main problems with the battle of the Somme was the fact that Generals on both sides assumed that artillery wouls destroy all defenses that would slow down their troops. The Charges had fixed bayonets but they also were expected to make use of their rifles. In taking a trench the only weapon really good for doing so was the bayonet. The Sub machine gun was only the other real alternitive.

Sadly the only way to take a trench was to get men into it.

Or use grenades.

The trenches had side bunkers where men could find cover from the grenades but they do help

Our lot, and the Aussies had a way to deal with that. Open the door/old blanket and throw in the grenade as you say "Any one in there?"
Trick is getting there and a rolling barrage is effective if terain is 'good'.

[ray245]

Another possibility is that the terrain between the clones and the droid army was slightly crowned, so they had to stand up in order to get a clear line of sight to the enemy. But then you'd expect them to get down when the enemy closes the distance.

I keep thinking of the Kashyyk battle, however. In that case, they set up elevated firing positions, trenches, and were bringing their armour to the beach, so it seems that they understand what to do. But when the wookies get up and start charging like demented Zulus, the clones follow them. That's why I wonder about the "Spartan warrior code" possibility.

I got a feeling that certain squads are led by wookies, just as they were led by jedi or it can be the wookie was leding them to another position as they knew the terrain better

[Lord Sander]

Another possibility is that the terrain between the clones and the droid army was slightly crowned, so they had to stand up in order to get a clear line of sight to the enemy. But then you'd expect them to get down when the enemy closes the distance.

I keep thinking of the Kashyyk battle, however. In that case, they set up elevated firing positions, trenches, and were bringing their armour to the beach, so it seems that they understand what to do. But when the wookies get up and start charging like demented Zulus, the clones follow them. That's why I wonder about the "Spartan warrior code" possibility.

I got a feeling that certain squads are led by wookies, just as they were led by jedi or it can be the wookie was leding them to another position as they knew the terrain better

Or the clones somehow felt they had to go along with the Wookiee charge despite better judgment. IIRC the charging Wookiees weren't particularly well armed, so they didn't want them to get wholesale slaughtered maybe?

[Darksider]

Perhaps Yoda ordered the clones to keep as many wookies alive as possible?

I could see Yoda doing that, given his "good relations" with the wookies, and the fact that it certainly wouldn't help them if all the wookies charged and died and the clonetroopers hung back and used them as meat shields

[Isolder74]

Or use grenades.

The trenches had side bunkers where men could find cover from the grenades but they do help

Our lot, and the Aussies had a way to deal with that. Open the door/old blanket and throw in the grenade as you say "Any one in there?"
Trick is getting there and a rolling barrage is effective if terain is 'good'.

The trick is gettiong into the trenches and not getting skewered by the defenders. You can't just sit there throwing grenades into the trench. once in the trenches anything ends up becoming a weapon from shovels to just about anything you can imagine. WWI was an infantryman's nightmare with even their own Generals throwing them away. The main problem was neither side understood how the machine gun had changed warfare.

[ntstlkr]

Cheers All,

The most important point will be held to last but firstly I have always been amazed at how much the formations(?) resembled Soviet style tactics used to advance the infantry when they were 100-50 meters from the objective to be assaulted.

The men stay mounted until they were well up on the objective then dismounted to close with the enemy. Like a "marching advance". Kinda of a quick range walk with weapons (usually fired from the hip no less) oriented and firing at a constant rate (which was perplexing because the standard issue for Soviet infantry was only 3 magazines, you can burn through 3 mags mighty quick). You couldn't come across any old copy of the Red Army Times and not see pictures of their folks "always marching valiently foward, weapons firing into the ranks of soldiers defending the Imperialist West". lol, Ok, that was a loooong time ago back in the '80s.

Back then I was assigned to the 1st Bde, 3rd Armored and our AOR was astride the "GAP". From about Bad Hersfeld and down. Anyways even then we could see various changes in Soviet tactics. They went from the classic "marching advance" that I described above, to something a little more-or-less might be called the bounding overwatch technique common to the west.

It was a complete failure for them (from the briefing photos and videos we were able to view, and the fact that they eventually went back to the "old" way). Apparently with the personnel and training practices in place (extremely centralised c-n-c, rigid adherence to doctrine, rote memorization of tactics, no room for individual initiative, etc...), the Soviets couldn't pull off the kind of fire & manouver techniques we took for granted in the West. So they fell back on what they considered tried and true, discipline and numbers.

We also saw changes in other ways, like they started off with tanks and ifv's leading the infantry but eventually ended up with the tanks and ifv's trailing. Just goes to show you mixing mech and foot is a pain in the ass to coordinate, not withstanding the different speeds between the two. Trying to advance and keep everything together, the vehicles from leaving the infantry behind, takes constant practice and training.

Things changed when I got to the 160th SOAG, we were taught CQ stuff, bounding overwatches were out and "space dominance" was in. Of course the tactical setting was far different of course. Orient on threats, quick but not rushed, leaning forward with a slight crouch, but not bent over, weapon at the positive ready position.

When I got to the CAV, it was something else again. So tactical considerations aside, I would expect doctrine and training to have the greatest impact on clone tactics and techniques. There was nothing way out of the ordinary onscreen, which brings up my last point.

The whole SW epic was filmed with an eye towards just that, epic storytelling. The use of broad imagery and symbolism to depict dramatic events. One example of this is the massive clash of great armies on Geonosis, where the screen is filled with massive formations of troops gathering together and advancing, rushing into battle with an evil foe, heroic Jedi at the front. Kinda like those shots of troops you can find in old copies of the Red Army Times, lol. The Soviets were nothing if not accomplished users and manipulators of imagery. GL was giving us a great depiction of an epic struggle getting underway on the parched plain of Geonosis through the use of the same kind of imagery.

Damn, sorry for the rant guys!

[Tychu]

It pretty much comes down to the regular Clone Troopers being used as Droids. The only ones that get training to not be just bantha fodder are the ARC troopers and the Commandos. And for anyone who played Republic Commando or read the book knows that they took cover when fired upon, worked as a team not just some huge moving wall.

[Stuart Mackey]

snip

The trick is gettiong into the trenches and not getting skewered by the defenders. You can't just sit there throwing grenades into the trench.

I never said that they did. I did say that one way was to go in behind a rolling barrage. It was a technique that worked reasonably well.

once in the trenches anything ends up becoming a weapon from shovels to just about anything you can imagine.

Once in the trench you used what you were issued with and carried in, be that rifle and bayonet, or pistols etc.

WWI was an infantryman's nightmare with even their own Generals throwing them away. The main problem was neither side understood how the machine gun had changed warfare.

Oh, they knew how it had changed things, what they had trouble with was truly effective ways of overcoming the well sited machine gun and mud and wire etc.

[NRS Guardian]

Yes, the Generals did know how the the industrialization of warfare had changed things, it's just that the standard tactic to defeat an entrenched enemy at the time was to outflank him. This is what we see at the beginning of WWI, each side trying to outflank the other with the other guy extending his lines in response until you ended up with trenches running from the English Channel to neutral Switzerland. Thus the standard tactic was exhausted and the war entered a stalemate period with generals falling back on throwing masses of men a weak point hoping enough men get through to do the job.

Three things that might mitigate the clonetrooper rush are:
1. Electronic sights, with targeting data coming to your helmet you don't need to raise the weapon to your shoulder to see through the sights.
2. The clone rifle could have enough recoil and be heavy enough that it is just as accurate and more comfortable to fire it from the hip with the use of electronic sights.
3. The clones could have been depending on their vehicles, with their dedicated anti-personnel weaponry, to provide most of the suppressing fire.

[Centurian99]

There are troops who are trained to constantly advance while laying down fire...currently, I believe its mostly a spec-ops type thing. I've heard that Delta is trained to advance while maintaining accurate fire. There's some other depictions of this...Tears of the Sun comes to mind.

[weemadando]

From Bravo Two Zero, its detailed that the SAS tactics involved moving forward and taking the fight to the enemy, even when heavily outnumbered - to give the SAS troops the initiative and exploit superior training and moral.

[Edward Yee]

After reading Darth Wong's take on the technology of AOTC (see Episode II at the homepage), as well as ruminations on the depth of Palpatine's strength, could he have such a capacity for detail (or possibly micromanagement) as to have deliberately chosen or ensure (whether through him or through Count Dooku) that the clonetroopers were capable of performing their mission as far as seen in the movie, but not too successful for the Separatists to remain viable?

Or am I reading too much into this?

(That is, successful enough to rescue the Jedi -- so that they could be successful, but not too successful -- and deal "sufficient" damage to the Separatists on the ground, but not so much as to actually secure the High-Value Targets and cripple the Separatists from the get-go, too early?)

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

After reading Darth Wong's take on the technology of AOTC (see Episode II at the homepage), as well as ruminations on the depth of Palpatine's strength, could he have such a capacity for detail (or possibly micromanagement) as to have deliberately chosen or ensure (whether through him or through Count Dooku) that the clonetroopers were capable of performing their mission as far as seen in the movie, but not too successful for the Separatists to remain viable?

According to the latest numbers, the Clonetroopers are ridiculously outnumbered to high heaven. They need every nanogram of competence they can get.

[nightmare]

Human wave tactics is not popular in the west due to the casualty rates, but it remains an effective tactic which is still considered viable by serveral countries.

[Edward Yee]

Kazuaki, that's certainly true, but as for the Battle of Geonosis itself? (That is, for the particular troops assigned to that battle.)