[Possible Spoilers] How powerful was Revan ?

[Trogdor]

So Revan IMO was not a powerhouse, he was a schemer of the nth degree that could put Palpy to shame.

Revan always struck me as more of a charismatic military genius than a schemer. Those under his command typically became fanatically loyal to him to the point that they'd wage civil war against the country they'd just fought to protect (the convertion of the Jedi who joined him can perhaps be attributed to whatever Revan learned about turning Jedi at the Trayus Academy, but the conversion of rest of his fleet's personel certainly can't).

Was he as persuasive as Palpatine? Hell yes, maybe more so. But I never got the sense that Revan was manipulating everyone like Palpy did.

[FOG3]

After how Paragus was taken down and other things revealed in KOTOR2 my personal thoughts are if Revan had to deal with Palpatine and his Empire Sidious and Vader would find HK-47 and some of his most elite Jedi take out squads to arrange a few accidents.

Imagine for example:
"I'm sorry sir, we just discovered your latest concubine was infected with a lethal STD."

Or perhaps Vader's medbot (after some hacking) making some modifications to his breathing unit that would cause it to fail. Or his _protocol_ droid shooting him in the back.

Do Sion's and Nihilus's abilities figure into this? Seems as how Kreia trained both all three of them, and Sion seems to have something of an inferiority complex in regards to her first student ie Revan. It sound like Kun's regeneration trick was inferior to the walking corpse's is the main reason I bring it up.

[Darth Fanboy]

FOG3 What the Fuck are you smoking? Please tell me you are being sarcastic with "Revan defeats Palpatine because Revan infects him an STD". And why would Sion and Nilhlus(sp?) factor into it at all?

[FOG3]

Please tell me you didn't interpret that as Revan acting as a concubine. Not to mention that one was meant as something of a joke. The point was Revan is willing to use dirty tactics and had the elements developed to operate using dirty tactics.

Nihilus and Sion are contemporary Sith Lords trained by the same master as Revan. As such it might be able to come up with a way to benchmark power somehow off of them.

[Darth Quorthon]

I read somewhere, I believe it was in the Star Wars Timeline Gold that about 1,000 years before Vader and Sidious, Darth Bane decided to reduce the Sith down to the one master/one apprentice structure because he felt that the dark side of the Force was "being stretched too thin" amongst the various Sith/Dark Jedi. Therefore, instead of having thousands of dark force users, there would be only a handful at the most. This would definitely be a vote in Palpatine's favor, since there were a great deal more dark force users around in time of Revan and Qel-Droma(sp?).

As an aside, how do you think Revan, Qel-Droma, or Palpatine would fare against the likes of Marka Ragnos or Ajunta Pall(sp?). I remember Kreia saying something in KOTOR 2 about how if a contemporary force user were to face an "ancient master" he/she would seem to be a "child playing with toys".

(By the way, if you haven't heard of it, the Timelong Gold is this huge .pdf file that lists the chronology of Star Wars using information from the Movies, Books, and Video Games, just so I didn't appear to be talking out of my ass.)

[FOG3]

I noticed among the listed feats for Palpatine was basically reinforcing Byss as a Force well. The technique involved sounded very similar to that which created the Valley of the Jedi. Realizing this I’ve decided to try to temporarily play devils advocate here.

“The Force of thousands of Jedi is trapped here. If Jerec captures this power, he will be a creature such as the universe has never seen. The supernova of stars in a fleeting thought - the eradication of life from a star system in a whisper - will be within his power.”-Rahn on the Valley of the Jedi

A force sensitive overgrown monkey-lizard will later use this Force well to grant the Force to his followers that otherwise could not use it.

I am to understand that Naga Sadow used a Meditation Sphere onboard his battleship to rip stars in half. A feat I am to understand was topped when it was salvaged and used later, although it resulted in the destruction of said device.

The Jedi Temple is also supposed to have some sort of Force well as I understand it.

So by the time of Dark Empire you know that Palpatine has to have scrounged up every Sith artifact he could get his grubby little paws on, and he’s apparently sitting on a Force Well. Taking these two things into account and that he didn’t care about burning out bodies, what he was able to accomplish in comparison to what others have done with similar resources isn’t that impressive.

With the Lusankya refresh my memory was it just the Rebels scratching their skulls and trying to figure it out, or explicit for an authoritative figure? In order to physically get the ship in there and bury it you’d need to remove the buildings on top. Unless someone wants to tell me how it got there otherwise? This means *drumroll* Palpatine had to evacuate the area and have some structures ripped down. So if he widened the evacuation a little bit, had the Lusankya come in while it was nightime in that area via one of those secret hyperspace routes the Invisible Hand used would he even need to do the mental control thing? Even if he does what’s to stop him from having used the local Force well to give him a boost to pull it off? Additionally I’ve gotten the impression from previous discussions that the shroud is more of a trick of manipulating events as much or more so then an actual use of the Force. Unlike Kreia’s or Jerec’s abilities in that area.

So in terms of personal power I do believe that leaves us with the films pretty much. While it’s hard to do anything conclusive between to eras with such a long time between them I do have something for you to chew on. Sidious was not able to flat out overwhelm any of the Jedi Masters he fought with his use of the Force. If you go with the light side for KOTOR2 (which I suspect will be the official one) Kreia took out three Jedi Masters, who managed to survive the Jedi Civil War, using the same basic trick that consumed Darth Nihilus. Kreia did not have access to things that Revan did not except for perhaps her apprentices.

I do believe that narrows the potential gap quite a bit.

Furthermore:
Assumption: Darth Bandon = ~above average Jedi
Revan>brain-damaged Revan>>Darth Malak>>Darth Bandon

If you select Revan as dark side in KOTOR2 you will be able to view the recording on a Sith Holocron on Korriban. In is Bastila talks about how she’s seen Sith who’ve tried to control the Star Forge in Revan’s absence flat out consumed. She further speculates that knowing what Revan did of Rakatan history and the Star Forge he meant this to happen. Thus we can benchmark off the Star Forge which we knew from talking to the Rakata in KOTOR1 was not easy to control. Malak was able to control the Star Forge, as well as Revan and Revan dominates Malak even when Malak drew on the power of the Forge and Jedi he had captured.

Wasn’t the move on Revan’s flagship one of desperation meaning that one can no more use Bastila and her squad as reasonable to take Revan down then the Rebel fleet at Endor versus a fully operational DS2 and support fleet. That Malak orders his army of droid followed by deploying all his troops and apprentices on you as you try to board the Starforge, and even says so in cutscene would seem to further imply if Malak hadn’t ordered that salvo on Revan’s bridge Revan would not have had any problems.

Clearly Revan is high upper echelon in the same way Sidous is. Direct comparison beyond that however becomes more difficult. Certain implications could swing it one way or the other on what who with their own personal power would come out on top. Besides which Obi-wan Kenobi clearly showed that pure power isn’t the only factor in a confrontation.

On completing the Sith goals:

[Revan:]
-Kill the Jedi-
KOTOR2 heavily implies that even if you go pure lightside only the Exile, those the Exile trained, and Atris survive the eventual fallout. Of these Atris fell to the darkside, the Exile wasn’t exactly a Jedi anymore, and the rest weren’t Jedi. That’s about as close as the Sith have really ever gotten to winning. The actual Jedi Civil War reduced the surviving Jedi to under one hundred. Furthermore Revan managed to convert many, many Jedi to see the rightness of the Sith way.

-Kick the Republics butt-
Even with Revan going lightside the Republic is barely managing to stay alive after Revan and his apprentice brought the Republic to its knees. They aren't dead mainly because Revan chose to not crush them, but to stop Malak. Revan has now went into the Unknown Regions to likely confront the remnants of the Ancient Sith Empire.

[Sidious]
-Kill the Jedi-
Sets up a trap via playing events that kills the Jedi via Order 66 by stabbing them in the back. At least two Jedi Masters survive this. A grand total of two Jedi were convinced the Sith were right.

-Kicking the Republics butt-
Sidious has the satisfying irony of turning the Republic into basically a new Sith Empire. Just one with only two Sith Lords.

[Tiriol]

I noticed among the listed feats for Palpatine was basically reinforcing Byss as a Force well. The technique involved sounded very similar to that which created the Valley of the Jedi. Realizing this I’ve decided to try to temporarily play devils advocate here.

“The Force of thousands of Jedi is trapped here. If Jerec captures this power, he will be a creature such as the universe has never seen. The supernova of stars in a fleeting thought - the eradication of life from a star system in a whisper - will be within his power.”-Rahn on the Valley of the Jedi

A force sensitive overgrown monkey-lizard will later use this Force well to grant the Force to his followers that otherwise could not use it.

I am to understand that Naga Sadow used a Meditation Sphere onboard his battleship to rip stars in half. A feat I am to understand was topped when it was salvaged and used later, although it resulted in the destruction of said device.

Nitpick: Aleema Keto, lover of Ulic Qel-Droma and one of the original leaders of Teta system's Krath sect, used Naga Sadow's device to rip out a star's core to destroy her Jedi assailants and their Republic aid - but she had been tricked by Exar Kun and Ulic to do it in a place where there was not only one star, but many, in close proximity. The unstable star detonated and the waves of destruction also caused the other stars to detonate, destroying Aleema and Naga Sadow's old ship - and sending a gigantic wave of destruction all around it, which also reached the Jedi library world of Ossus - the real reason why Exar had wanted to destroy those stars. Ossus's vast libraries would be quickly evacuated and Exar Kun could land there while everyone was occupied with evacuation and steal whatever he'd want. It was not the Sith device that topped Naga Sadow's achievement - it was a matter of circumanstances.

The Jedi Temple is also supposed to have some sort of Force well as I understand it.

So by the time of Dark Empire you know that Palpatine has to have scrounged up every Sith artifact he could get his grubby little paws on, and he’s apparently sitting on a Force Well. Taking these two things into account and that he didn’t care about burning out bodies, what he was able to accomplish in comparison to what others have done with similar resources isn’t that impressive.

Excuse me - Palpatine just happened to snuff out millions of life forms to create personal citadel of Force energies. Not impressive? Lord Kaan was the one responsible for the existence of the Valley of the Jedi and he had not intended that - he had rallied almost all of the remaining Sith Lords (with the exception of Lord Bane) around him to use a deadly Force power called thought bomb to destroy Master Hoth's Jedi Army of Light. But something failed and both the Jedi and the Sith were trapped in that accursed valley. Palpatine didn't make such a botch out of his work and most certainly was not trapped on Byss (and he did that energy entrapping thing to millions of beings). And he was never shown to wear any Sith devices - Exar had his Sith amulet, Naga Sadow had a bunch of Sith artifacts, even Revan wore that strange armour and robe.

With the Lusankya refresh my memory was it just the Rebels scratching their skulls and trying to figure it out, or explicit for an authoritative figure? In order to physically get the ship in there and bury it you’d need to remove the buildings on top. Unless someone wants to tell me how it got there otherwise? This means *drumroll* Palpatine had to evacuate the area and have some structures ripped down. So if he widened the evacuation a little bit, had the Lusankya come in while it was nightime in that area via one of those secret hyperspace routes the Invisible Hand used would he even need to do the mental control thing? Even if he does what’s to stop him from having used the local Force well to give him a boost to pull it off? Additionally I’ve gotten the impression from previous discussions that the shroud is more of a trick of manipulating events as much or more so then an actual use of the Force. Unlike Kreia’s or Jerec’s abilities in that area.

So, what Palpatine would say to the populace that an area of at least 17.6 kilometres long and many kilometres wide has to be evacuated during the Galactic Civil War, when Coruscant was most likely the safest place in the galaxy? And nobody would notice that there's some heavy construction going on there while they have been evacuated? And nobody would notice how a goddamned Executor-class command ship enters the atmosphere, lands and is covered with new buildings?

And it wouldn't matter much if Lusankya would be brought to Coruscant via a secret hyperspace route - it's a huge craft and had to land in order for it to be covered. It would involve some pretty heavy propaganda to tell the people that everything is normal and that the honking huge battleship is not currently entering the atmosphere. But you are right that Palpatine could have used Jedi Temple's Force well (but I was under the impression that the Force well was unknown even to the old Jedi Order?).

So in terms of personal power I do believe that leaves us with the films pretty much. While it’s hard to do anything conclusive between to eras with such a long time between them I do have something for you to chew on. Sidious was not able to flat out overwhelm any of the Jedi Masters he fought with his use of the Force. If you go with the light side for KOTOR2 (which I suspect will be the official one) Kreia took out three Jedi Masters, who managed to survive the Jedi Civil War, using the same basic trick that consumed Darth Nihilus. Kreia did not have access to things that Revan did not except for perhaps her apprentices.

I do believe that narrows the potential gap quite a bit.

Sidious killed three experienced Jedi Masters almost immediately the fight had started in RotS, remember? Dooku clearly considered him to be superior even despite Dooku's known pride and vanity about his importance and value to the galaxy and to the Force. We're talking about someone who battled Yoda both with the Force and in lightsabre duel. And Sidious did fight Yoda to standstill. The novel states that Yoda understood that he was losing, while the film is more vague about it. And do you happen to remember what Kreia did to those Jedi Masters? Somehow she had learned to strip people from the connection with the Force, most likely after having observed the Exile for a long time. And how the fuck would Revan know of such power? It has never been recorded that he would have done anything like that. He didn't do it to his Jedi assailants before Malak fired on his ship - in fact, Revan decided to wield a lightsabre against them.

Furthermore:
Assumption: Darth Bandon = ~above average Jedi
Revan>brain-damaged Revan>>Darth Malak>>Darth Bandon

If you select Revan as dark side in KOTOR2 you will be able to view the recording on a Sith Holocron on Korriban. In is Bastila talks about how she’s seen Sith who’ve tried to control the Star Forge in Revan’s absence flat out consumed. She further speculates that knowing what Revan did of Rakatan history and the Star Forge he meant this to happen. Thus we can benchmark off the Star Forge which we knew from talking to the Rakata in KOTOR1 was not easy to control. Malak was able to control the Star Forge, as well as Revan and Revan dominates Malak even when Malak drew on the power of the Forge and Jedi he had captured.

Wasn’t the move on Revan’s flagship one of desperation meaning that one can no more use Bastila and her squad as reasonable to take Revan down then the Rebel fleet at Endor versus a fully operational DS2 and support fleet. That Malak orders his army of droid followed by deploying all his troops and apprentices on you as you try to board the Starforge, and even says so in cutscene would seem to further imply if Malak hadn’t ordered that salvo on Revan’s bridge Revan would not have had any problems.

Do you happen to remember how shit hard that final fight was? Revan most certainly did not just "dominate" Malak, he fought for his life (well, that was me - I had not chosen any life draining powers when I played as a lightsider and none of my Force powers seemed to affect the floating Jedi corpses).

The cutscene was rather vague. It certainly gave impression that Revan was self-assured, but the Jedi are not actually known for throwing everything into play out of desperation. Yoda deemed Luke ready to face Vader in RotJ, remember? He and Obi-Wan warned against Luke doing so in ESB, though, so they were not randomly throwing him against the Dark Lord and why the hell should the Jedi Order of old with many more followers and the support of the Republic be more desperate?

Clearly Revan is high upper echelon in the same way Sidous is. Direct comparison beyond that however becomes more difficult. Certain implications could swing it one way or the other on what who with their own personal power would come out on top. Besides which Obi-wan Kenobi clearly showed that pure power isn’t the only factor in a confrontation.

On completing the Sith goals:

[Revan:]
-Kill the Jedi-
KOTOR2 heavily implies that even if you go pure lightside only the Exile, those the Exile trained, and Atris survive the eventual fallout. Of these Atris fell to the darkside, the Exile wasn’t exactly a Jedi anymore, and the rest weren’t Jedi. That’s about as close as the Sith have really ever gotten to winning. The actual Jedi Civil War reduced the surviving Jedi to under one hundred. Furthermore Revan managed to convert many, many Jedi to see the rightness of the Sith way.

-Kick the Republics butt-
Even with Revan going lightside the Republic is barely managing to stay alive after Revan and his apprentice brought the Republic to its knees. They aren't dead mainly because Revan chose to not crush them, but to stop Malak. Revan has now went into the Unknown Regions to likely confront the remnants of the Ancient Sith Empire.

[Sidious]
-Kill the Jedi-
Sets up a trap via playing events that kills the Jedi via Order 66 by stabbing them in the back. At least two Jedi Masters survive this. A grand total of two Jedi were convinced the Sith were right.

-Kicking the Republics butt-
Sidious has the satisfying irony of turning the Republic into basically a new Sith Empire. Just one with only two Sith Lords.

A grand total of two Jedi? Hah. What about Jerec, Tremayne, Kadann and many of the Imperial Inquisitors? And remember, KotOR 2 also has other Jedi to survive - the three Jedi Masters survived from Revan's purge and it was implied that the Jedi had just gone underground - many of them had left their Order, but those who remained chose to disappear so that the Sith would reveal themselves. So it evens out - but it appears that the Jedi lore survived mostly through Revan's reign, while Power of the Jedi said that the Empire's reign snuffed out much of the ancient lore. So, which one had more repercussions? A Jedi fallen to the dark side who managed to kill a lot of Jedi and whose actions drove the remaining into hiding? Or someone who destroyed the Jedi Order, almost succeeded in killing all the Jedi and whose regime ruthlessly annihilated every bit of Jedi lore they came across?

The Republic was already in weakened state before Revan started the Jedi Civil War. The Mandalorian Wars, remember? The Republic had barely time to try to recover from it and in comes Revan and his Sith fleet. And it was noted that Malak was no Revan - he didn't have his former master's tactical and strategical brilliance, he relied on brute force and on the Star Forge's ability to churn out more and more ships. And even still the Sith had to recruit mercenaries (as witnessed on Manaan).

OK, I should probably end this right here, since I'm not at all convinced that my first attempt at debate was succesful or intelligent at all. Thanks for your patience and time.

[Darth Fanboy]

Please tell me you didn't interpret that as Revan acting as a concubine.

Christ you're dense.

Not to mention that one was meant as something of a joke. The point was Revan is willing to use dirty tactics and had the elements developed to operate using dirty tactics.

And Sidious doesn't use dirty tactics? Sidious doesn't manipulate? We're just going to assume that based on your word (without much in the way of anything quantifiable to back it up) that Revan would just sit back and own everyone as he wished?

Nihilus and Sion are contemporary Sith Lords trained by the same master as Revan. As such it might be able to come up with a way to benchmark power somehow off of them.

Do you even realize what you're saying? Isn't that sort of like saying that a football player is only as good as his coach and that natural talent has nothing to do with it?

[Trogdor]

Revan>brain-damaged Revan

That's not true. Revan did have to regain his powers, but before the final fight starts, Malak specifically says that Revan is even more powerful than he was during his reign as the dark lord.

[Aquatain]

Actually since revan is a RPG Charecter why not use the SW-roleplaying rules as reference,in KOTOR Revan will be around level 16 when you finnish the game,acording to SW-roleplaying rules Palpatine is a level 20 charecter and exar-kun is a level 17,and vader is level 18.
( i have no idea what malak level was but it seems like most people belive that it was lower than revans.)

[The Grim Squeaker]

Malak is 20 according to the rpg supplement, and the rpg is not canon especially for power- ever heard of game balance?
According to it many on screen powers would not be possible and a jedi would hurt himself by using his force powers.

[Tiriol]

Actually since revan is a RPG Charecter why not use the SW-roleplaying rules as reference,in KOTOR Revan will be around level 16 when you finnish the game,acording to SW-roleplaying rules Palpatine is a level 20 charecter and exar-kun is a level 17,and vader is level 18.
( i have no idea what malak level was but it seems like most people belive that it was lower than revans.)

According to the official WotC's Star Wars d20 stats, Darth Malak is level 20. Although the guy who did his stats gave him some incredible and unreasonable power boosts (and it appears that he did only to make Malak the victor of the week's "badass motherfucker" award, since not even Palpatine got any special powers besides what his classes would have given him). Revan does not have official stats, but most fan-made stats place him as the Dark Lord at level 19 and Revan who beat the shit out of Malak at level 20.

[Illuminatus Primus]

No way of knowing based on game mechanics and his various possible builds.
We do know that Exar Kun maked him look like a pansy, but Kun would snot beat Palpatine in a straight fight so it's not much agaisnt him.

According to official data, Lord Darth Sidious is the most powerful Dark Lord of the Sith in history.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Actually since revan is a RPG Charecter why not use the SW-roleplaying rules as reference,in KOTOR Revan will be around level 16 when you finnish the game,acording to SW-roleplaying rules Palpatine is a level 20 charecter and exar-kun is a level 17,and vader is level 18.
( i have no idea what malak level was but it seems like most people belive that it was lower than revans.)

According to the official WotC's Star Wars d20 stats, Darth Malak is level 20. Although the guy who did his stats gave him some incredible and unreasonable power boosts (and it appears that he did only to make Malak the victor of the week's "badass motherfucker" award, since not even Palpatine got any special powers besides what his classes would have given him). Revan does not have official stats, but most fan-made stats place him as the Dark Lord at level 19 and Revan who beat the shit out of Malak at level 20.

Fuck that wank. Neither were ever as powerful as Palpatine, and there's no way Jedi Revan was more powerful than Luke Skywalker when he defeated Palpatine in single combat aboard HIMS Eclipse.

[Tiriol]

Malak is 20 according to the rpg supplement, and the rpg is not canon especially for power- ever heard of game balance?
According to it many on screen powers would not be possible and a jedi would hurt himself by using his force powers.

Blast, you beat me.

Well, Vitality points don't actually mean that you are hurting yourself when you lose them while using Force powers. The idea behind them, I think, is that calling upon the Force requires some concentration and usually is somewhat taxing, so you slowly lose your stamina while using your Force powers. You also get winded if you just and just avoid incoming blaster fire (meaning: your opponent succeeded in hitting you but you only lost VPs, since you still had them and the opponent did not score a critical hit). Only after you've run out of vitality points you're in one merry shell, since now when you use your powers, it actually does "hurt" you (by taking away some Wound Points every time you use your powers). And better hope that nobody is shooting at you, since one hit from a blaster and you're toast.

Anyway, the point stands - many of KotOR's powers are not replicated in the official RPG rules and KotOR also heavily favours Jedi characters, while RPG tries to be more balanced (it's not fun if your fellow player happens to play a Jedi and gets to outshine everybody in the group all the time, that's why Force powers cost vitality - there's only one instance in the movies when Force-using has made someone winded and that's Luke trying to move his X-Wing on Dagobah and that's how they explain the vitality cost outside of game terms).

[Lord Revan]

We know that even Darth Revan is more powerfull then Darth Malak

of the two Revan was always the more powerfull

or words to that effect.

[FOG3]

Excuse me - Palpatine just happened to snuff out millions of life forms to create personal citadel of Force energies. Not impressive? Lord Kaan was the one responsible for the existence of the Valley of the Jedi and he had not intended that - he had rallied almost all of the remaining Sith Lords (with the exception of Lord Bane) around him to use a deadly Force power called thought bomb to destroy Master Hoth's Jedi Army of Light. But something failed and both the Jedi and the Sith were trapped in that accursed valley. Palpatine didn't make such a botch out of his work and most certainly was not trapped on Byss (and he did that energy entrapping thing to millions of beings). And he was never shown to wear any Sith devices - Exar had his Sith amulet, Naga Sadow had a bunch of Sith artifacts, even Revan wore that strange armour and robe.

Sith devices and Force wells were mentioned, unless you want to show that Jerec, Kreia, and Desann were packing some serious Sith artifacts. The comment on it resembling the creation of the Valley of the Jedi is in part to counter the resembling Nihilus's trick, which it doesn't at all.

So, what Palpatine would say to the populace that an area of at least 17.6 kilometres long and many kilometres wide has to be evacuated during the Galactic Civil War, when Coruscant was most likely the safest place in the galaxy? And nobody would notice that there's some heavy construction going on there while they have been evacuated? And nobody would notice how a goddamned Executor-class command ship enters the atmosphere, lands and is covered with new buildings?

Because of course he could never have a BS thing like a radiation leak needing to be fixed to get them out of there. No it must be more parsimonious that he squished them all and all the people and their records that died plus a 11 mile area being now uninhabited is easier to pull off, I call BS. Those people have records I might remind you, and what would be the point of doing it your way other then "ME BEAT CHEST, ME ROCK" nonsense. Mr. I'm going to play things from the shadows is going to take on that kind of streak? Plus it's not like everyone is going to notice a black shape letting off no exhaust (repulsors) on a rapid descent in the middle of the night in a evacuated area?

Sidious killed three experienced Jedi Masters almost immediately the fight had started in RotS, remember?

He strikes down three Jedi Masters under the effect of the Shroud of the Dark Side, while they're still going "Golly Gee he's a Sith?!" Did you even play KOTOR2? Yeah Kreia must have just picked that up in the past week because the Masters talking about the technique born of Malachor V (guess on the steps of what Sith Academy the Revan unmasking scene happened), the Sith Assasins using the same basic technique, and Darth Nihilus who was consumed by the technique aren't there, right? Plus you're forgetting the lead up to her sucking them dry. Considering Force Lightning is supposed to involve draining life force from what I've heard I'd stop short of calling the lesson of Malachor a trick in order to imply Force Lightning isn't.

The Jedi Masters were: Master Kavar who was the Jedi Guardian and the Mandalorians thought would lead the war (ie that eras Mace Windu equivalent), Master Vrook, and Master Zez-Kai Ell. They paralyze your character in order to strip you of the Force. Kreia walks in and cancels that. The Masters go "the Sith they've finally revealled themselve, charge" or in other words ingnite their lightsabers and prepare to attack. Kreia bitchslaps the trio of them with the Force, bitchslaps Master Vrook when he gets up to try it again, informs them of what idiots they are, and then leaves them drained husks that can't even be felt in the Force.

Palpatine lost his duel with Mace Windu, and only did anything significant with his force powers on him when Mace had his arm taken off and was still basically in shock. He had only a measily little edge on Yoda. As I said he never _overwhelmed_ them with his power. Eventually likely to, and did, win is a different ball game from just bitchslapping them around like no one's business.

As for why Revan would know it, gee lesson of Malachor, who first found out about Malachor and its secrets? Who apparently concealed even its existence for his apprentice while using it? Who had things like a device of Kasshyk designed to reinforce his true personality? Who did the Exile serve under? The only thing Revan didn't have that Kreia did was possibly access to her apprentices. Additionally what Malak did with his contraption sound amazing familiar to the "learned hunger" associated with the lesson of Malachor.

Do you happen to remember how shit hard that final fight was? Revan most certainly did not just "dominate" Malak, he fought for his life (well, that was me - I had not chosen any life draining powers when I played as a lightsider and none of my Force powers seemed to affect the floating Jedi corpses).

I used pure RP Lightsider Sentinel Class and curb stomped him on the Leviathan and on the Forge on Hard level. I patiently waited for him to drain his captives before giving him a another lesson. That however isn't relevant as it's game mechanics. Malak delusions about you being weaker earlier, followed by his BS about you being stronger then Darth Revan later I personally discount. His little speach before his death in which he admits he is a loser compared to you on the other hand I take seriously. At that point the Dark Guardian (he's Force Jumped me on the Star Forge) is clearly reflecting on the error of his ways and finally dropped the bravado, denial, and comforting lies he's been telling himself.

The cutscene was rather vague. It certainly gave impression that Revan was self-assured, but the Jedi are not actually known for throwing everything into play out of desperation. Yoda deemed Luke ready to face Vader in RotJ, remember? He and Obi-Wan warned against Luke doing so in ESB, though, so they were not randomly throwing him against the Dark Lord and why the hell should the Jedi Order of old with many more followers and the support of the Republic be more desperate?

Perhaps you missed they were flat out losing the war and Bastila was just managing to slow them down. Perhaps you missed that Revan was exterminating or converting the Jedi in droves such that even though Revan's idiot apprentice was in charge for the last year at wars end the Jedi's number was under a hundred. Perhaps you missed the part of the plan where they thought if they got Revan the Sith war machine would fall apart. Perhaps you missed that they sent no Masters with the brain washed Revan and why. Perhaps I should stop ribbing you on this because we don't know what Revan was up to. Given the device on Kasshyk there's even the possibility Revan planned what happened. What we saw was him crushing a Republic troopers throat, the Jedi run up, Revan flourished with the saber, and then was backstabbed.

And remember, KotOR 2 also has other Jedi to survive - the three Jedi Masters survived from Revan's purge and it was implied that the Jedi had just gone underground - many of them had left their Order, but those who remained chose to disappear so that the Sith would reveal themselves.

Find dictionary. Look up "fallout" then proceed to smack yourself one. Revan set the events in motion with the Mandalorian Wars, with Malachor V, and the fallout even as he left with the apparent intention for his Sith followers to destory themselves if the dark side ending had been canon is clearly the result of Revan's actions. Revan's intentions and all however are still not clear.

So, which one had more repercussions? A Jedi fallen to the dark side who managed to kill a lot of Jedi and whose actions drove the remaining into hiding? Or someone who destroyed the Jedi Order, almost succeeded in killing all the Jedi and whose regime ruthlessly annihilated every bit of Jedi lore they came across?

If Palpatine destroyed the Order then so did Revan. Not that Revan can cleanly be said to have truly fallen or not. The temple and enclaves were abandoned, and many believed the Jedi extinct in the beginning of KOTOR2. When Kreia says of those that survive that they're Jedi no longer, it isn't just bluster. From Kreia at the end you know a new Order was established at a later date, and that the Disciple will sit on the new Council.

When people aren't even bothering to pay decent attention to what you're saying I guess there's no reason to continue to try to play devil's advocate on this. Fine I'm done.

[Tiriol]

Excuse me - Palpatine just happened to snuff out millions of life forms to create personal citadel of Force energies. Not impressive? Lord Kaan was the one responsible for the existence of the Valley of the Jedi and he had not intended that - he had rallied almost all of the remaining Sith Lords (with the exception of Lord Bane) around him to use a deadly Force power called thought bomb to destroy Master Hoth's Jedi Army of Light. But something failed and both the Jedi and the Sith were trapped in that accursed valley. Palpatine didn't make such a botch out of his work and most certainly was not trapped on Byss (and he did that energy entrapping thing to millions of beings). And he was never shown to wear any Sith devices - Exar had his Sith amulet, Naga Sadow had a bunch of Sith artifacts, even Revan wore that strange armour and robe.

Sith devices and Force wells were mentioned, unless you want to show that Jerec, Kreia, and Desann were packing some serious Sith artifacts. The comment on it resembling the creation of the Valley of the Jedi is in part to counter the resembling Nihilus's trick, which it doesn't at all.

True on the Sith artifact account; but our dear Kreia had spent some considerable time near the Exile whose special nature should be apparent to anyone playing KotOR 2. And how, how how the fuck does Palpatine's creation of Byss's Force-enhancing effect (I'm not actually sure what it really did, the Essential Guide to Planets and Moons suggested that enhancing effect) resemble Lord Kaan's poorly planned, half-mad and poorly performed thought bomb trick which happened to destroy Kaan also? True, Palpatine didn't devour those life forces like Nihilus - but he had not intended that life-trapping effect to be a weapon, either and he most certainly was not trapped by it himself.

So, what Palpatine would say to the populace that an area of at least 17.6 kilometres long and many kilometres wide has to be evacuated during the Galactic Civil War, when Coruscant was most likely the safest place in the galaxy? And nobody would notice that there's some heavy construction going on there while they have been evacuated? And nobody would notice how a goddamned Executor-class command ship enters the atmosphere, lands and is covered with new buildings?

Because of course he could never have a BS thing like a radiation leak needing to be fixed to get them out of there. No it must be more parsimonious that he squished them all and all the people and their records that died plus a 11 mile area being now uninhabited is easier to pull off, I call BS. Those people have records I might remind you, and what would be the point of doing it your way other then "ME BEAT CHEST, ME ROCK" nonsense. Mr. I'm going to play things from the shadows is going to take on that kind of streak? Plus it's not like everyone is going to notice a black shape letting off no exhaust (repulsors) on a rapid descent in the middle of the night in a evacuated area?

Perhaps you'd like to explain to me, then, how nobody in that area and in the areas directly adjacent to it noticed any kind of deep-seated problems with having a) the goverment telling that there is something big and bad going on and that they must move out and b) no evidence whatsoever that there actually is anything bad? The radiation example you gave is quite poor: there would be a huge outcry in the whole galaxy if a large part of Coruscant would be said to suffer from radiation, dangerous enough to evacuate populace? Perhaps some massive refugee outbreak when Coruscant's populace is trying to move away just to make sure that they don't have to suffer. Admittedly, it is also far-fetched to think that Palpatine would have used some massive Force mind trick on everyone and my personal opinion is that he combined both methods (bullshitting and Force powers). But Palpatine has snuffed out millions of lifeforms through the Force, as evidenced by Byss, and has enhanced/given Force-sensitivity in/to others while OUTSIDE of Byss (meaning that he would not be in direct contact with the said Force well - even Kedann's Reborn had to enter the Valley of the Jedi, unless I'm mistaken), so there's not much reason to believe that he could not achieve something similar on Coruscant.

Sidious killed three experienced Jedi Masters almost immediately the fight had started in RotS, remember?

He strikes down three Jedi Masters under the effect of the Shroud of the Dark Side, while they're still going "Golly Gee he's a Sith?!" Did you even play KOTOR2? Yeah Kreia must have just picked that up in the past week because the Masters talking about the technique born of Malachor V (guess on the steps of what Sith Academy the Revan unmasking scene happened), the Sith Assasins using the same basic technique, and Darth Nihilus who was consumed by the technique aren't there, right? Plus you're forgetting the lead up to her sucking them dry. Considering Force Lightning is supposed to involve draining life force from what I've heard I'd stop short of calling the lesson of Malachor a trick in order to imply Force Lightning isn't.

The Jedi Masters were: Master Kavar who was the Jedi Guardian and the Mandalorians thought would lead the war (ie that eras Mace Windu equivalent), Master Vrook, and Master Zez-Kai Ell. They paralyze your character in order to strip you of the Force. Kreia walks in and cancels that. The Masters go "the Sith they've finally revealled themselve, charge" or in other words ingnite their lightsabers and prepare to attack. Kreia bitchslaps the trio of them with the Force, bitchslaps Master Vrook when he gets up to try it again, informs them of what idiots they are, and then leaves them drained husks that can't even be felt in the Force.

Palpatine lost his duel with Mace Windu, and only did anything significant with his force powers on him when Mace had his arm taken off and was still basically in shock. He had only a measily little edge on Yoda. As I said he never _overwhelmed_ them with his power. Eventually likely to, and did, win is a different ball game from just bitchslapping them around like no one's business.

As for why Revan would know it, gee lesson of Malachor, who first found out about Malachor and its secrets? Who apparently concealed even its existence for his apprentice while using it? Who had things like a device of Kasshyk designed to reinforce his true personality? Who did the Exile serve under? The only thing Revan didn't have that Kreia did was possibly access to her apprentices. Additionally what Malak did with his contraption sound amazing familiar to the "learned hunger" associated with the lesson of Malachor.

So somehow it's a different thing for Kreia to first use Force Push and then some kind of a life-draining Force lightning on those Jedi Masters than for Palpatine to use the shroud of the dark side (notice: shroud that affects EVERYONE in one big fucking galaxy, not just those four Jedi Masters - and novel appears to suggest that Palpatine could control the shroud to a high extend, allowing Obi-Wan to act freely on Invisible Hand's bridge and later against General Grievous on Utapau) against four experienced Jedi Masters and kill three of them in a quick order? These Jedi Masters had all participated in the Clone Wars and survived and they had their lightsabres ignited and they knew/suspected Palpatine's true allegiance AND they were fucking ready to overthrow him for the sake of the Republic. How the hell is it different from Kreia's situation? Oh, Mace Windu, one of the most powerful Jedi of his time, did not fall so easily. Well, guess what - neither did Darth Sion, or Darth Nihilus, or the Exile when Kreia had to face them (remember Kreia's memory sequence where she was all but beaten to a glory pulp? Or when Exile fucking kicks her ass in the end?).

And Kreia - she lost her hand to Darth Sion in the beginning of the game, but considering that Lord Sion called her once again his master later on and didn't try to kill her would suggest that Kreia gained some powers while with the Exile. Or are you so thick that you suggest that Kreia intentionally lost that hand? That she could have bitchslapped and Force-raped Sion from here to Christmas but chose not to? The Sith Assassins were said to gain strength according to their opponents' Force potential. And how the hell is Darth Nihilus same thing as Darth Revan? Nihilus was consumed by the hunger for more Force, yes, but Revan was never shown to suffer from that or even to drain someone of the Force. He used Malachor's secrets to corrupt those goddamn Jedi and pervert them into Sith assassins and warriors for him, but the Exile was a fucking aberration - someone who did not exist in the Force, an open wound in the Force. Revan was certainly NOT a wound in the Force.

And overwhelming power? Like, I don't know, a fucking Force storm conjured straight from the dark side of the Force and able to consume and destroy capital ships the size that would make Revan and his peers in his time piss in their pants and call for mama? If that's not overwhelming power, I don't know what it is.

Do you happen to remember how shit hard that final fight was? Revan most certainly did not just "dominate" Malak, he fought for his life (well, that was me - I had not chosen any life draining powers when I played as a lightsider and none of my Force powers seemed to affect the floating Jedi corpses).

I used pure RP Lightsider Sentinel Class and curb stomped him on the Leviathan and on the Forge on Hard level. I patiently waited for him to drain his captives before giving him a another lesson. That however isn't relevant as it's game mechanics. Malak delusions about you being weaker earlier, followed by his BS about you being stronger then Darth Revan later I personally discount. His little speach before his death in which he admits he is a loser compared to you on the other hand I take seriously. At that point the Dark Guardian (he's Force Jumped me on the Star Forge) is clearly reflecting on the error of his ways and finally dropped the bravado, denial, and comforting lies he's been telling himself.

So Darth Malak somehow is unable to deduct how powerful his former master is in his own place of power? And you said it yourself - you "patiently" awaited him to go through those captives. Yes, game mechanics, but they happen to have some correlation, since Malak tells Revan what he is doing with those bodies. Revan had to run all around Malak and hit him repeatedly and avoid getting hit, since the bastard could just steal an another life force (and don't say that it proves how powerful Revan must have been - remember Palpatine's little trick on Byss?).

The cutscene was rather vague. It certainly gave impression that Revan was self-assured, but the Jedi are not actually known for throwing everything into play out of desperation. Yoda deemed Luke ready to face Vader in RotJ, remember? He and Obi-Wan warned against Luke doing so in ESB, though, so they were not randomly throwing him against the Dark Lord and why the hell should the Jedi Order of old with many more followers and the support of the Republic be more desperate?

Perhaps you missed they were flat out losing the war and Bastila was just managing to slow them down. Perhaps you missed that Revan was exterminating or converting the Jedi in droves such that even though Revan's idiot apprentice was in charge for the last year at wars end the Jedi's number was under a hundred. Perhaps you missed the part of the plan where they thought if they got Revan the Sith war machine would fall apart. Perhaps you missed that they sent no Masters with the brain washed Revan and why. Perhaps I should stop ribbing you on this because we don't know what Revan was up to. Given the device on Kasshyk there's even the possibility Revan planned what happened. What we saw was him crushing a Republic troopers throat, the Jedi run up, Revan flourished with the saber, and then was backstabbed.

Out of interest, where it was mentioned that the number of the Jedi had dropped below one hundred? And if Revan did that, remember what Palpatine did. The number of the Jedi who did not convert dropped below ten and even non-affiliated Force-users were hunted down like rats. Perhaps you missed the part in the Galactic Civil War where the Empire fell apart only upon Palpatine's death and was actually on the verge of total victory with their new Death Star? Perhaps you missed the part in the opening scene of RotJ where it is clearly stated that the second Death Star would spell a certain doom for the rebellion? And perhaps you missed the part where Palpatine too was essentially backstabbed by Vader, just like Revan had been backstabbed by Malak? Yeah, thought so. If Luke managed to escape even after getting near-full treatment of Force lightning, then sure as hell Palpatine could have escaped his health fully intact and thus the Empire does not fall apart, the Rebellion gets its ass handed to it since the Emperor does not die and the Empire stays intact and there's no last minute Imperial incompetence thanks to the sudden loss of Palpatine's version of battle meditation's positive influence.

Revan planned for the Jedi to wipe his memories, to reduce him nearly to a mere private in the Republic army? KotOR made it quite clear that Revan had not been prepared for Malak's betrayal, so he could not have planned the memory-losing thing in advance, don't you think? He had no fucking clue that he was Revan in the game and was entirely shocked to learn it, one way or another - yeah, sounds like great planning. Especially the part in KotOR II where it is mentioned that he just disappeared, apparently alarmed by some memory of some terrible menace outside the known galaxy. So... He decided to plan ahead and make sure that he'd remember a huge threat outside the known galaxy perhaps all too late to be of any real use? Yes, what a genius.

And remember, KotOR 2 also has other Jedi to survive - the three Jedi Masters survived from Revan's purge and it was implied that the Jedi had just gone underground - many of them had left their Order, but those who remained chose to disappear so that the Sith would reveal themselves.

Find dictionary. Look up "fallout" then proceed to smack yourself one. Revan set the events in motion with the Mandalorian Wars, with Malachor V, and the fallout even as he left with the apparent intention for his Sith followers to destory themselves if the dark side ending had been canon is clearly the result of Revan's actions. Revan's intentions and all however are still not clear.

I don't have any clue as to what you mean with that "if the dark side ending had been canon" part. I didn't say that the entire Jedi Order survived, I said that some survived. There's a difference, don't you think?

So, which one had more repercussions? A Jedi fallen to the dark side who managed to kill a lot of Jedi and whose actions drove the remaining into hiding? Or someone who destroyed the Jedi Order, almost succeeded in killing all the Jedi and whose regime ruthlessly annihilated every bit of Jedi lore they came across?

If Palpatine destroyed the Order then so did Revan. Not that Revan can cleanly be said to have truly fallen or not. The temple and enclaves were abandoned, and many believed the Jedi extinct in the beginning of KOTOR2. When Kreia says of those that survive that they're Jedi no longer, it isn't just bluster. From Kreia at the end you know a new Order was established at a later date, and that the Disciple will sit on the new Council.

Not clearly fallen or not? He used Malachor V's secrets to pervert unwilling subjects to be his pawns! He set up a Sith academy on Korriban to train new Sith warriors to him - and he bloody well knew that they'd use the dark side. He also happened to use the Star Forge which was said to be tainted with the Builders' greed and lust for power. And as you said yourself, he killed that Republic soldier with Force grip. So tell me, how it is unclear has he or has he not fallen?

About the Jedi back then. I actually have a memory that the Jedi Masters (who most likely were better informed than our dear, dear Kreia) would have said that the remaining Jedi went into hiding to await the time when the Sith would reveal themselves. And according to your logic, the Jedi Masters which Exile met in the game were not, in fact, Jedi any more since "Kreia said so, yes she did, preciousss".