Clonetroopers vs Stormtroopers

[Boba Fett]

Have you seen the new black and red coloured senate guard-stormtroopers? They will be in Episode III.

They are cool!!!

[Alyeska]

Question:

Those big guns that were used to take down the Trade Fed ships, could they be used against AT-ATs?

[Vympel]

Have you seen the new black and red coloured senate guard-stormtroopers? They will be in Episode III.

They are cool!!!

WTF?!?!?!?!?! WHERE!!?!!

[Vympel]

Question:

Those big guns that were used to take down the Trade Fed ships, could they be used against AT-ATs?

I would think so- of course we have no exact calcs but if they can carve up a non shielded starship like they did, I'm not confident of the ability of AT-ATs to withstand it.

My subjective non-calc based opinion is that they'd be carved up like a hot knife through butter. But, the AT-ATs should easily be able to blast them apart as well.

[Kurgan]

Boba Fett wrote:

Have you seen the new black and red coloured senate guard-stormtroopers? They will be in Episode III.

They are cool!!!



WTF?!?!?!?!?! WHERE!!?!!

I believe he's referring to the red suited "Imperial guards" (the guys with teh spears) that we see briefly in AOTC (to replace the dark blue suited Senate guards in TPM).

We first saw these crimson guys in Return of the Jedi (guarding the Emperor's throne room).

[Vympel]

I believe he's referring to the red suited "Imperial guards" (the guys with teh spears) that we see briefly in AOTC (to replace the dark blue suited Senate guards in TPM).

We first saw these crimson guys in Return of the Jedi (guarding the Emperor's throne room).

Ok ... if that's the case .... Boba Fett ... are you BLIND?!

For some reason I think Boba Fett was referring to something else- for one thing- the Imperial Royal Guard do not wear any black. And you'll notice that the Senate retains the blue suited open helmet guards in AOTC.

[Alyeska]

Question:

Those big guns that were used to take down the Trade Fed ships, could they be used against AT-ATs?

I would think so- of course we have no exact calcs but if they can carve up a non shielded starship like they did, I'm not confident of the ability of AT-ATs to withstand it.

My subjective non-calc based opinion is that they'd be carved up like a hot knife through butter. But, the AT-ATs should easily be able to blast them apart as well.

Yes, however these are anti-capital ship weapons. I should think that they have much greater range and firepower then an AT-AT.

With these weapons, I do not see how the Clonetrooper force can loose. They can blast apart AT-ATs with ease. AT-TEs will tear apart AT-STs and Clonetroopers will own the Stormtroopers.

[Vympel]

Yes, however these are anti-capital ship weapons. I should think that they have much greater range and firepower then an AT-AT.

Just because we saw them being used on capital ships doesn't mean that's their purpose- they're artillery pieces.

The AT-AT performed the same role at Hoth- except its height gave it superior LOS over these big guns (can't remember what they're called)

They can blast apart AT-ATs with ease

And AT-ATs can blast them apart in return. These weapons are also not exactly the main combat unit of the Clonetroopers. AT-TEs are. Which are matched by AT-ATs.

AT-TEs will tear apart AT-STs

As I pointed out, you've assumed artillery pieces that don't carry troops are equivalent to AT-ATs, when its quite obvious that the AT-TE=AT-AT

Clonetroopers will own the Stormtroopers

No reason to think that. Clonetrooper armor while looking cooler has many more gaps in the body glove than stormtrooper armor, and there's no difference in weaponry. We have no less than four different examples of stormtrooper weapons of the same size as the Clonetrooper DC-17 rifle (as I've pointed out many times, the Clonetroopers are also shown to have a DC-17 carbine in their inventory in the Visual Dictionary) in A New Hope- there's no reason to think that these are rare.

[Alyeska]

Yes, those artilery pieces are indeed without troops like an AT-AT. And yes, an AT-TE is more comparable. However in a combat situation such as this, it is entirely logical that they would pit their most powerful weapon against an AT-AT rather then loose the TEs. And I highly doubt that the troops inside of the AT-AT will do it much good if its blasted away by the Clonetrooper artillery piece.

BTW, where did the thread creator say that no air vehicles were allowed? It seems that sir support is organic to the Clonetrooper forces. They can move their armor and troops around the battlefield with ease and the Gunships are commonly used for ground support.

[Vympel]

However in a combat situation such as this, it is entirely logical that they would pit their most powerful weapon against an AT-AT rather then loose the TEs.

Except we don't know the position of these weapons in the TO&E- how many per Acclamator, for example (actually I might be able to check but it's almost 4am and I'm real tired- will see if there's anything tommorow)- it's highly likely that AT-ATs will outnumber them.

This is outside of the scope of the debate however.

And I highly doubt that the troops inside of the AT-AT will do it much good if its blasted away by the Clonetrooper artillery piece.

For the purposes of this scenario, we're assuming that the troopers are outside their mounts and are engaged. I was just pointing out the difference in role.

BTW, where did the thread creator say that no air vehicles were allowed? It seems that sir support is organic to the Clonetrooper forces. They can move their armor and troops around the battlefield with ease and the Gunships are commonly used for ground support.

The original post said:

AOTC era clonetroops with AT-TE backup vs ESB era stormtroopers with AT-AT backup

Hence no LAATs and no arty.

[Stravo]

True; the clone army has better air support. Mind you, we didn't see air support at Hoth because of the theatre shield, although I suppose they could have dragged them in on the ground and then lifted off once inside the perimeter.

But then why didn't the Empire simply fly down the air support outside the shield, as they did the AT ATs and have the air cover come in low as the AT ATs did to get under the shield?

[Alyeska]

Hence no LAATs and no arty.

No nothing hardly. That means no AT-STs or even Chariots for the Stormie side.

A more realistic debate would be a standard compliment of one Acclamator vs that of an ISD. Ah well, the Stormies win, but their infantry take rather high losses from the Clonetroopers. Yes, I know they got bigger rifles, but the Clonetroopers seemed to be armed ONLY with the bigger rifles. That does make for a nice advantage.

[Alyeska]

True; the clone army has better air support. Mind you, we didn't see air support at Hoth because of the theatre shield, although I suppose they could have dragged them in on the ground and then lifted off once inside the perimeter.

But then why didn't the Empire simply fly down the air support outside the shield, as they did the AT ATs and have the air cover come in low as the AT ATs did to get under the shield?

Probably because the Empire has no organic air support weaponry attached to their ground units. They occassionaly used Ties or Gunboats, but not to often. It seems the Empire designed its ground forces for dealing with the biggest threats they had. That was the Rebellion and weaker forces. Before landing, most enemy fighters would already be dead having tried to attack the Imperial space craft.

In the case of Hoth, the Empire didn't bring in support because they didn't expect the Rebels to have good air support nor did they have any attached air support. Just a half dozen Gunships (fit for cold air and humidity) would have helped the Empire tremendously.

[Vympel]

Yes, I know they got bigger rifles, but the Clonetroopers seemed to be armed ONLY with the bigger rifles.

There's no reason to think that stormtrooper forces arrayed for a Geonosis style battle wouldn't all or predominantly be armed with the larger rifles- IMO it's purely a question of mission.

The stormies also have a variety of big rifles- at least one of these, the T-21, is an LMG like the MG-42 (actually it's based off the Lewis but I'm talking about role now)- more flexibility.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

The Stormtroopers aren't limited to just the E11... I know that its become something of a brain bug, but check out ANH (Tatooine scenes and on the DeathStar), and all the variety of guns they have, including big ones like you'd expect to see Clonetroopers using.

I think an even bigger brain bug is their lacking of holsters. In all OT movies they had holsters for their E-11's, but they are nowhere to be seen in video games, books, art, on the action figures, etc. I always thought those were cool, but they just disappear. WTF? But you're right. I think the brain bug comes from the fact that all Stormtroopers past ANH don't use those heavy weapons anymore. Unless you count the E-WEB in TESB used by the Snowtroopers, they haven't used anything heavier than their E-11's at all.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

Well, a big advantage the AT-TE has over the AT-AT is MUCH better anti-infantry weapondry. It has six anti-infantry turrets. Four on the front, two on the rear. The AT-AT lacks this amount of coverage, meaning the Clonetroopers could outflank the AT-ATs while Stormtroopers couldn't outflank the AT-TEs and would probably be committing suicide by doing so. Once the Clonetroopers are behind or even on the sides of the AT-ATs, they could devise some way of taking them out. I'm sure they could shoot up the AT-AT's mechanical components from underneath. However, let's not underestimate the AT-AT. While the AT-TE might have much more anti-infantry weapons and much better coverage than the AT-AT, the AT-AT would probably destroy the thing in one well-placed shot. If they started out at long range, the Clonetroopers could kiss their asses good-bye. If, however, the AT-TEs were close enough to be able to maneuver out of the AT-ATs' gun arcs, they could very well win by flanking them, dropping off their 20 Clonetroopers, and then blasting the hell out of the AT-AT's mechanical components underneath it.

And the arty used on Geonosis were the SPHA-Ts-Self Propelled Heavy Artillery-Turbolasers. TURBOLASERS! They'd utterly destroy AT-ATs. http://www.starwars.com/databank/vehicl ... index.html

[Kurgan]

Ok ... if that's the case .... Boba Fett ... are you BLIND?!

For some reason I think Boba Fett was referring to something else- for one thing- the Imperial Royal Guard do not wear any black. And you'll notice that the Senate retains the blue suited open helmet guards in AOTC.

I guess I'll have to watch AOTC again, because I honestly don't remember seeing any of the old guards, but perhaps you're right. Maybe in that scene where Jar Jar addresses the Senate and Mace/Yoda are talking in a booth.

The Red guards don't have any black on their uniforms except the little "cowl" type thing they see out of, if that's what you mean. But I don't know what else he could be referring to in the movie.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

No, no, no. The guards are in Palpatine's office, along with a familiar-looking chair of his...





















Aw, screw subtlety. The Imperial Royal Guards and the chair are both in his throne room on the Death Star II. Or at least the chair is very similar to the one in the throne room. I wonder if the IRG were really first assigned to protect Palpatine or if Supreme Chancellor Valorum had them as well in Episode I and they just shift over to Palpatine?

[Kurgan]

; ) So the early scenes where he's talking with the Jedi then.

Thanks for pointing that out. So I guess they just complement the regular guard (or are they his personal guard?), rather than replace them.

[Boba Fett]

I believe he's referring to the red suited "Imperial guards" (the guys with teh spears) that we see briefly in AOTC (to replace the dark blue suited Senate guards in TPM).

We first saw these crimson guys in Return of the Jedi (guarding the Emperor's throne room).

Ok ... if that's the case .... Boba Fett ... are you BLIND?!

For some reason I think Boba Fett was referring to something else- for one thing- the Imperial Royal Guard do not wear any black. And you'll notice that the Senate retains the blue suited open helmet guards in AOTC.

Sorry for the late answer!

Yes dudes, I was referring to something else!

You really think that I'm so blind?

A month ago I saw a picture on www.starwars.com
The picture was somewhere in the episode III section. (Shot of the day?)

On that picture you can see a stormtrooper armor but painted in red and black colour and the text said they will be the new senate guard.

Look for it if you don't believe it!

[Boba Fett]

Ok ... if that's the case .... Boba Fett ... are you BLIND?!

For some reason I think Boba Fett was referring to something else- for one thing- the Imperial Royal Guard do not wear any black. And you'll notice that the Senate retains the blue suited open helmet guards in AOTC.

I guess I'll have to watch AOTC again, because I honestly don't remember seeing any of the old guards, but perhaps you're right. Maybe in that scene where Jar Jar addresses the Senate and Mace/Yoda are talking in a booth.

The Red guards don't have any black on their uniforms except the little "cowl" type thing they see out of, if that's what you mean. But I don't know what else he could be referring to in the movie.

Hey I never told you they were in AOTC!!!

They will be in Episode III...

[Vympel]

Well, a big advantage the AT-TE has over the AT-AT is MUCH better anti-infantry weapondry.

Yup, that's true, some of the ball turrets we see on the AT-TE would be good on an AT-AT.

It has six anti-infantry turrets. Four on the front, two on the rear. The AT-AT lacks this amount of coverage, meaning the Clonetroopers could outflank the AT-ATs while Stormtroopers couldn't outflank the AT-TEs and would probably be committing suicide by doing so.

How do you mean outflank? The battlefield is geonosis (flat plain basically)- firepower would be the most advantageous and the AT-AT has it down.

Once the Clonetroopers are behind or even on the sides of the AT-ATs, they could devise some way of taking them out. I'm sure they could shoot up the AT-AT's mechanical components from underneath.

You're putting them in a perfect position without dealing with the problem of how they got there. See above.

However, let's not underestimate the AT-AT. While the AT-TE might have much more anti-infantry weapons and much better coverage than the AT-AT, the AT-AT would probably destroy the thing in one well-placed shot.

Yup.

If they started out at long range, the Clonetroopers could kiss their asses good-bye. If, however, the AT-TEs were close enough to be able to maneuver out of the AT-ATs' gun arcs, they could very well win by flanking them, dropping off their 20 Clonetroopers, and then blasting the hell out of the AT-AT's mechanical components underneath it.

Yeah what I said above- this is Geonosis however so there's no point in talking about what if scenarios where the clonetroopers are in a more advantageous position.

And the arty used on Geonosis were the SPHA-Ts-Self Propelled Heavy Artillery-Turbolasers. TURBOLASERS! They'd utterly destroy AT-ATs.

True- however they aren't equivalent to AT-ATs- the most numerous is the AT-TE, and there's no reason to think the AT-ATs couldn't blast them in return. 17.28km was the range in ESB.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The Imperials have heavy turbolaser artillery on massive repulsorlift siege engine units that IMHO is heavier then the AOTC turbolaser artillery. I'd say the AOTC clone army is a far more mobile and agile strike for then the stormtrooper/Imperial Army attack force which I'd say is geared toward more heavy firepower but lower agility.

Force Commander would indicate that TIE and some airspeeder support would be norm--but it does seem they lack a real equivalent to the Republic gunships.

I think the Empire's attack force could take the clone force. Their specialized AT-AAs would cut-apart the air-support of the clones...and I have my doubts that the AT-TE's heavy weapons would be able to effectively and reliably kill the AT-AT's armor.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

But they would be able to destroy AT-STs and the SPHA-Ts would take care of the AT-ATs.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The Loronar turbolaser artillery is "quite affective" against low-altitude capital ships. Do you really think the Empire wouldn't have a modernized version? The SPAT-Ts are toast.