Imperial Racism, EU Brain bug?

[GrandAdmiral]

Though some of the those specific points are actually valid, that statement essentially embodies a main aspect of Social Darwinism; ie, that other races (or in this case, species) are incapable of functioning as well as a caucasian (or human) can. Though there may be some instances where that is the case (of course, there are many human groups can't always work together things effeciently as well), using it as a blanket excuse is completely unacceptable.

I'm not saying that they cant function as well as humans, just that they cant function well together. And I think that with the gammorrean example Veers (and the author) were showing that some species are idiots.

[AK_Jedi]

I'm going to have to agree with 18 here.

The original post also asked if it was Lucas' intent to portray the imperials as racist. Considering the limitations of alien prosthetics/puppets when he was making the movies, he indeed makes the rebellion very diverse while making the empire all white males.

It's also interesting then that among the first Rebel fighter pilots to be thrown into the meat grinder and die in RotJ was a black man and an asian man.

Considering that most of the pilots we see (excluding Wedge and Lando) in that battle are in the process of getting blown up, I think these characters support rebellion diversity rather than saying that they are putting minorities into the greatest danger.

[18-Till-I-Die]

I think there was some contempt of aliens from the movies and some from EU. But I don't think it was racism. There was an ebook (I forgot the name) about General Veers where he gave the reason. He said something about the other species being too diverse and then gave an example. He said 'would a Trandoshan ensign take an order that he didn't like from a Wookie captain? Would a Gammorrean captain allow someone to surrender? Would he know when the odds were stacked against him and pull out? Would an Ishori take orders from a Diamalan? I don't think so!' So, it may not have actually been racism but caution.

Because...

Assuming someone will mindlessly act like a predictable sterotype is not racist at all.

Nope. No sir.

[Noble Ire]

Though some of the those specific points are actually valid, that statement essentially embodies a main aspect of Social Darwinism; ie, that other races (or in this case, species) are incapable of functioning as well as a caucasian (or human) can. Though there may be some instances where that is the case (of course, there are many human groups can't always work together things effeciently as well), using it as a blanket excuse is completely unacceptable.

I'm not saying that they cant function as well as humans, just that they cant function well together. And I think that with the gammorrean example Veers (and the author) were showing that some species are idiots.

Again, both points are true, but you can't use the physical or cultural deficiencies of a few to declare most or all aliens inferior to human interests and positions, as the Empire would invariably do to achieve its own ends. A Gammorrean may inherently lack the cognative abilties necessary to captain a starship, but Mon Calamari, Wookiees, Twi'lek, Duros, Verpine, etc. certainly do.

[Knife]

As in, can we point to the Mon Cals as proof of Rebellion diversity and Imperial xenophobia?
Or are the Mon Cals merely being used for the ships they built which are valuable to the Rebellion and kept only crewing those ships, far away from xenophobic Rebel humans? Coming from an EU brain bug mentality, of course.

Where do you get the idea that Mon Calamari were restricted to their own ships only (which, actually, could be justifiable, if it were the case, considering the layout of their vessels are specifically suited for their visual and physical needs)? We only see the interior of a single non-Mon Cal ship for a few moments, a single med chamber, no less. I don't see where your gettign the idea that they were kept away.

simple no Mon calmaries where shown anywhere but MonCal ships (the fact the that see little to nothing of interiors of non Mon Cal ships is irrelevant).

There is at least one Mon Cal down on Endor at the musical at the end of RotJ.

[Knife]

Well i said this before, so just my thought but i think, yes the Empire is racist.

Look through the OT, i defy you to find one non human Imperial officer, one woman, one minority.

Your going to have a hard time justifying Mas Ameda (or what ever his name is) as Palpy's VP all through the PT. He was with Palpy/Sidious when Yoda walked in and slammed the red guards. Palpy walked out of it and Yoda didn't, even if MA didn't know the Sithness.

Compare this to the Alliance, where you see women, men, aliens, etc all together and with aliens and women and minorities even in places of power.

The problem with the OT, is that we see a cell organization. With VI and V, you have mainly the Alderaanian cell and Alderaan was a human planet/colony/place. It's really no wonder that we see mainly humans with them.

This cant be a coincidence. If humans were merely 'dominant' why so many aliens in the Rebel alliance? Why no WOMEN if its only humans being dominant? The EU has some few examples, but then even its a crapshoot.

Again, since we're dealing with a cell organization and mainly with the Alderaanian (human world) cell in two of the three movies, it shouldn't be that hard to figure out. In RotJ, a shit load of cells come together for a major assult. Mon Cal cells, Sullestian cells, etc.

It's not that hard to figure than on a world primarily comprised of one species, would have a cell made up of that one species.

Its logical to me that Palpatine is just a racist and likes people who are: male, human, caucasian when he posts them in positions of authority.

Mas Amedda
Sly Moore

Its interesting he chooses a minority for the template of his Clone Warriors who are effectively throw away lives that he could expend as he saw fit,

I'm not sure how to take this? Are you saying that Fett was some sort of minority or than Temuera Morrison is a minority? We have no idea how many 'Fett like' people there are in the SW universe. The best we can get is that indeed Fett is a minority as far as Mandalorians are concerned (being the last one).

and add to this his enslavement of the Wookies and attempts to call them 'nonsentient' when this is blatantly false even at a cursory glance...

RotS and Dark Lord puts this down more as revenge for helping save Yoda and using that as a excuse for a slave labor group.

So yes i think, it seems to me, we can add racist asshole to Palpatine's list of personality flaws along with: murderer, war profiteer, sociopath and warmonger.

Palpy seems more of an oppertunist and powermonger than a racist. If a racist attitude serves his purpose, then he's ok with it but I don't see any evidence that it's his default setting, as his aides in the PT show.

[Noble Ire]

Palpy seems more of an oppertunist and powermonger than a racist. If a racist attitude serves his purpose, then he's ok with it but I don't see any evidence that it's his default setting, as his aides in the PT show.

Exactly; he elevates who gains him the greatest advantage.
Later on, it seems, many of the people most useful, to Palpatine were themselves xenophobes, sometimes genocidally so, and he simply rarely saw fit to repress these tendancies, as long as his purposes were still served.

RotS and Dark Lord puts this down more as revenge for helping save Yoda and using that as a excuse for a slave labor group.

Oddly, the Mon Calamari and the Talz are also classified as such. It would appear to be a general Imperial tactic to justify enslavement of species, at least later on (keep in mind, Ackbar was once himself a slave).

[Srynerson]

If it wasn't Lucas' original intent to portray the Empire as discriminating against aliens, I think it certainly became his intent by the time of RotJ. The Rebellion's forces become more diverse over the course of the OT, with no corresponding change in Imperial forces. I also recall Irvin Kershner stating in an interview that Imperial uniforms and the atmosphere of Imperial ships were supposed to bring to mind Nazis (not to mention the use of the word "stormtroopers"), which seems like an odd choice if one doesn't intend to convey the impression of an organization being xenophobic. (And, of course, the RotS novel has a discussion of how the CIS was set up to create anti-alien sentiment. While EU, it's something Lucas had more involvement in than typical, and it seems unlikely he would have approved that material if he disagreed with it.)

[Knife]

If it wasn't Lucas' original intent to portray the Empire as discriminating against aliens, I think it certainly became his intent by the time of RotJ. The Rebellion's forces become more diverse over the course of the OT, with no corresponding change in Imperial forces.

I might point out that we never really see a large cross section of Imperial personel. Vader's handpicked taskforce is the primary group in the OT.

I also recall Irvin Kershner stating in an interview that Imperial uniforms and the atmosphere of Imperial ships were supposed to bring to mind Nazis (not to mention the use of the word "stormtroopers"), which seems like an odd choice if one doesn't intend to convey the impression of an organization being xenophobic.

*shrug*

(And, of course, the RotS novel has a discussion of how the CIS was set up to create anti-alien sentiment. While EU, it's something Lucas had more involvement in than typical, and it seems unlikely he would have approved that material if he disagreed with it.)

IIRC, that was Dooku's intent and he was a racist. But he was also a pawn and patsy for Sidious as well.

[SCVN 2812]

Out of universe: Lucas hadn't created the characters yet but..

In universe: What fate Sly Moore and Mas Amedda? They certainly aren't as omnipresent by ROTJ as they were in AOTC and ROTS.

[Stark]

So people like the idea that Palpatine is a racist. That's neat, and worthless.

Palpatine dissolved the Senate in ANH. There's no reason to show his political backers anymore... even if they hadn't been invented yet.

Moncals being around in ROTJ is totally worthless as evidence: the ROTJ-era rebellion was leaning almost entirely on their spacefleet. No shit they'd be there. One or two different aliens = tolerance now? What the fuck ever.

[AK_Jedi]

Out of universe: Lucas hadn't created the characters yet but..

In universe: What fate Sly Moore and Mas Amedda? They certainly aren't as omnipresent by ROTJ as they were in AOTC and ROTS.

Which was more than 20 years after ROTS. Remember, these characters were there with Chancellor Valorum. This means by the time of ANH, if they were still in politics, they would have held those positions for over 32 years. The fact that they were still with him after 10 years in AOTC speaks to Palpatine's tolerance towards aliens.

This, of course, does not rule out the possibility of the Empire as a whole being racist, while the Emperor is not. Perhaps he uses that racism as a means of control over the populace.

[Darth Fanboy]

And where are you getting the impression that humans supposedly make up a vast majority of the Imperial population? ?

Imperial military population, not the entire population of the Empire itself, excuse me. Sorry for the lack of calrification.

[Tiriol]

Palpatine himself wasn't racist or xenophobe, he even took time to learn many different alien languages; however, several Imperial authorities (Grand Moff Tarkin and Proculator of Justice Hethrir comes to my mind) were racist (Palpatine relied on that fact to keep Thrawn in check - so many members of the political and military circles were xenophobes that Thrawn would have a hard time to advance in ranks and to prove himself). It was application of "Divide and Conquer" - Palpatine allowed his high-ranking advisors, military personnel and politicians to express anti-alien sentiments and even pass out laws that classified some species as slave species (Wookiees) or non-sentient. There was already a background of mistrust towards aliens because of the Confederacy of Independent Systems and its alien leadership; it was hardly a difficult task to allow and encourage that way of thinking gain strength and popularity after the war when Palpatine could simply declare that Wookiees were rebelling against the society, the Empire AND hiding Jedi assassins etc. How many other species felt the same fate, I don't know. And even before these events alien mistrust was high in several circles - for example, Tarkin, while still a commander, had already noted how humans were gaining power and more important places in the Senate and political circles by the time of Rogue Planet; and in Labyrinth of Evil Senator Organa notices how COMPOR - the forerunner of the infamous COMPNOR - states in its advertisement that nonhumans need not to apply.

However, it still also apparent that the Imperial society and military did allow aliens, as well: General Gauer in Empire comics seemed to be not human (at least, not entirely) and Grand Admiral Thrawn is a well-known case. Governor Bin Essada was thought to have some alien blood in him (as his background info in Rebellion PC game indicates) and the Empire had no scrupples about employing alien bounty hunters and assassins. Also some members of Jerec's Dark Jedi were nonhuman and the current version of Jerec's background states that he was a Miraluka. Very possibly they had to work twice as hard as humans, but that had to do with their superiors' attitudes (unless, of course, one happened to belong to a designated slave species).

[Gunhead]

I've always thought Imperial racism is an EU brainbug.
Yes. Putting chicks in imperial uniforms would be extremely good and hot.
But if you look at the militaries on earth, women make up a relatively small percentage of the total.

We only see glimpses of the whole Imperial military machine. So just because we don't see any women in the imperial forces, it doesn't mean there aren't any. Just because idiot EU writers decide to run with it and go "ZOMG! T3h Emp1r3 i5 t3h sexist!" it just proves they're capable of leaps in.... well... wouldn't say logic really... I guess they can leap.. maybe.

As to the aliens... well. Most aliens would propably join whatever military/paramilitary forces they have for protecting their homeplanet/system(s). Imperial protection is all fine and nice, but many races still have their own defence forces. I don't see all that many aliens even wanting to join the Imperial army. Even if the Imp. army recruited all humanoid aliens that can use standard Imp. gear. Aliens would still be a tiny minority. Just from a logistics point of view it would be a nightmare trying to accomodate all the various alien species in the SW galaxy.

This of course doesn't stop EU writers from thinking that there's this huge line of aliens behind every imperial recruiting stations door, hammering at it, beggin to let them join. "And zen zie evil imperial officer in charge will zell zem that zey can't join and will laugh and oppress zem."

-Gunhead

[Stark]

Yeah, Tarkin is established as a racist. That doesn't extend to the entire Empire.

[NecronLord]

While it may not have been the original intent, it is clearly stated in the RotS novel and LoE, both developed with input from Lucas, to have been the reason Palpatine stacked the CIS with 'aliens.' I think it's fairly clear that the inention in those books, and presumably therefore of the modern G-level canon, to show that Palpatine is interested in using human predjudice as a tool.

There's never been any dipiction of Imperials, with the exception of Palpatine himself (who, being evil, can be as hypocritical as he likes) not being discriminatory. "Where are you taking this... thing" rings a little alarm bell.

Of course, some of the aliens no doubt, are inferior to humans. And some superior. Given the relative achievements that humans seem to have made (dominating Galactic politics for a start) perhaps there's some justification behind their smugness. It's quite possible that many Star Wars aliens just aren't as clever as humans.

[nightmare]

We've had the discussion of women in Empire before. They are few compared to the males, but they are there.

Armed Forces:
Admiral Daala
Admiral Betl Oxtroe
Shuttle pilots (Force Commander)

Intel:
Director Ysanne Isard

Other:
Emperor's Hand Mara Jade
Emperor's Hand Shira Elan Colla Brie
Emperor's Hand Roganda Ismaren
Emperor's Hand Arden Lyn

I probably forgot some.

[Lazarus]

It is actually stated in the Jedi Academy books that the Empire had a policy of anti-female, anti-alien in its recruitment, but I can't quite remember the name of it, although I think it was an acronym. However, it wasn't a NO females and aliens, it was a bias against them.

To add to the list above, there was an Imperial army major in the fake mini-DS facility in Isard's Revenge, and the Captain of the Interdictor cruiser in Rogue Squadron which was later renamed Corusca Rainbow when it defected was female. There was also Gara Petothel from Imperial Intelligence in the Wraith squadron books, and Captain Varrscha of the Virulence in The Bacta War.

[Aquatain]

Edit: removed

[RedImperator]

I'm going to add here that regardless of the Empire's alleged xenophobia and sexism, it's completely retarded to assume Earth's intrahuman racial categories are valid in another galaxy. Human racial distinctions are completely artificial, socially constructed, and didn't even exist on Earth in the minds of the Europeans who invented them until the 16th century. The in-universe reason why most SW humans resemble Earth Caucasians is almost certainly because for whatever reason, the vast majority of humans in that galaxy have Caucasian features, not because Palpatine is channeling David Duke with his evil Sith magic.

[consequences]

It is actually stated in the Jedi Academy books that the Empire had a policy of anti-female, anti-alien in its recruitment, but I can't quite remember the name of it, although I think it was an acronym. However, it wasn't a NO females and aliens, it was a bias against them.

To be more specific, Daala whines about it. An incompetent promoted for sleeping with a Grand Moff and then shuffled off to a nowhere post where she'll never be noticed. She does not make for the most unbiased source.

[Aaron]

How many Rebel aliens do we see working together with Rebel humans in ANH and ESB? 0 How many in RotJ? 1 (for the purposes of being recruited as a Rebel AND seen working together with humans, only Nien Nubb fits the bill). How many female Rebel fighter pilots and/or soldiers do we see in the whole trilogy? 0

Historically and on present day Earth woman have a hard time functioning in certain military roles IE: the infantry. That could be why we never see them among certain Rebel troops, like those on Hoth in the trenchs.

[Noble Ire]

How many Rebel aliens do we see working together with Rebel humans in ANH and ESB? 0 How many in RotJ? 1 (for the purposes of being recruited as a Rebel AND seen working together with humans, only Nien Nubb fits the bill). How many female Rebel fighter pilots and/or soldiers do we see in the whole trilogy? 0

Historically and on present day Earth woman have a hard time functioning in certain military roles IE: the infantry. That could be why we never see them among certain Rebel troops, like those on Hoth in the trenchs.

And, of course, there were several female officers working Echo Base's comm and control centers. There was also at least one female rebel pilot filmed for ROTJ, although she was cut from the final release.

[Aaron]

And, of course, there were several female officers working Echo Base's comm and control centers.

Of course, and frankly given the OT's focus on Luke and gang we were lucky to get a look at them. And one of them was the ion cannon fire control officer, hardly a menial position.

There was also at least one female rebel pilot filmed for ROTJ, although she was cut from the final release.

That I was unaware of.