superlaser question...

[His Divine Shadow]

Uh-huh. You cling to your Official material and theories, I'll go with Canon data. As for the effects of such, it will impart part of the energy even on a miss. Which is better than nothing at all.

Excuse me, but where do you go with canon data, and I do not?
Flakbursting is a theory on canon data, just as bolt/shield interaction is.

[Connor MacLeod]

The explosions I meant were the ones we see when Luke is watching from the Death Star. Some of the explosions are occuring in between the fleets (where there were no ships apparent).

Who said they werent ships if they weren't apparent? By that same logic we didnt see the bolts themselves - why would we assume they flak bursted (as opposed to some sort of warhead?)

But you're still right, these flak bursts can easily be described as maybe fighter missiles- like the thermonuclear explosion outside the bridge of Home One.

They could conceivably be capital missiles. The Executor, if no other ship, has concussion missiles remember.

[Connor MacLeod]

Connor you do realize that they still move at STL velocities and a good deal of energy isn't transfered until impact right? ICS, VD, etc all state that plasma is involved and several other sources link the coherenceof the plasma bolt to the effective range of the weapon. I don't want to spark up too much here but it isn't an untennable theory.

Yes, but that isnt directly me speaking either. Apparently there are some severe "logical" problems with the plasma-based model anyhow (least of all the magic bottle aspect.) At best, we might call them a kind of charged particle beam I think, or relegate them to strictly personal weapons being plasma ones (its not neccearily required for capital weapons to be plasma, at least by the DWR VD definitions - which incidentally is the only source I know of directly linking blasters to being plasma weapons.) And nothing in the ICS's to my memory have ever hinted at a plasma-beam weapon. And other sources (EGW&T, SWTJ, etc.) have gone more with a particle-beam theory than anything.

[Connor MacLeod]

The flak burst theory may work for the Death Star, as firing 1E38 J of energy at a planet would be more likely to simply tunnel through the planet, rather than detonating it. If the superlaser burrowed into the core and then "exploded" in a flak burst, that would cause the effects we saw.

Good point. I may have to mention that to Saxton and see what he says.

[Connor MacLeod]

*just sorta peers*

Okay. You people have seen the ESB chase scene, and don't believe TL's can explode flak style?

How do the visuals neccesarily argue only THAT definition as opposed to any other explanation, pray tell?

[Connor MacLeod]

Uh-huh. You cling to your Official material and theories, I'll go with Canon data. As for the effects of such, it will impart part of the energy even on a miss. Which is better than nothing at all.

What canon data?

For that matter, have you even considered the logic of such a "mode" on what is essentiall a dumb-fired beam weapon? You're inferring that the weapon has some magical ability to detonate like a physical warhead, lose all forward velocity and momentum, and then generate an omnidirectional burst of energy.

[Connor MacLeod]

The ESB novel specifically mentions 'flak bursts rocketing towards' the Falcon from the Avenger

Yes, and how does Flak neccesarily equal a "spherical explosion generated from a forward-moving, dumb fired beam weapon?"

[Ender]

The flak burst theory may work for the Death Star, as firing 1E38 J of energy at a planet would be more likely to simply tunnel through the planet, rather than detonating it. If the superlaser burrowed into the core and then "exploded" in a flak burst, that would cause the effects we saw.

Good point. I may have to mention that to Saxton and see what he says.

And depending on how that works, it could also explain the ring. Every time we saw it the DS had fired/was preparing to fire, so if that was plasma that goes off in a manner similar to the siesmic charge, we'd have an answer.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

What canon data?

For that matter, have you even considered the logic of such a "mode" on what is essentiall a dumb-fired beam weapon? You're inferring that the weapon has some magical ability to detonate like a physical warhead, lose all forward velocity and momentum, and then generate an omnidirectional burst of energy.

Well since all a turbolaser blast is is light (although to be fair, there are many theories on thesi idea), and light has no mass, thus no momentum. It is still unkown how they are able to detonate mid-flight. It is possible some element of the beam is controlled to 'detonate' after it travels X distance.

As for canonocity, guess what? An ISD has no physical weapons so a flak burst would mean a "spherical explosion generated from a forward-moving, dumb fired beam weapon." Unless you'd like to give another definition of the term 'flak burst' That I am unaware of.

[Connor MacLeod]

And depending on how that works, it could also explain the ring. Every time we saw it the DS had fired/was preparing to fire, so if that was plasma that goes off in a manner similar to the siesmic charge, we'd have an answer.

Perhaps, but then you'd still have to sort of figure out what kind of mechanism an energy weapon would possess to make that sort of effect.

I mean realistically, it would make more sense to assume its something like a concussion missile or proton torpedo: a physical or semi-physical warhead projectile sheathed inside some sort of energy/plasma field.

[Connor MacLeod]

Well since all a turbolaser blast is is light (although to be fair, there are many theories on thesi idea), and light has no mass, thus no momentum.

TL/blaster particles (or at least some kinds of blasters) may be comprised of massless particles, but remember that they cannot be purely photons (since photons don't "overlap" the way superlasers do).

It is still unkown how they are able to detonate mid-flight. It is possible some element of the beam is controlled to 'detonate' after it travels X distance.

It would be hard to visualize any sort of practical mechanism that could do so. This still is assuming that "energy weapons generate spherical explosions" is the only answer at all, however.

As for canonocity, guess what? An ISD has no physical weapons so a flak burst would mean a "spherical explosion generated from a forward-moving, dumb fired beam weapon." Unless you'd like to give another definition of the term 'flak burst' That I am unaware of.

How do we know they have no physical weapons? The DS had missile tubes and matter weapons (canon novelization AND radio drama) WEG credited the VSD and Executor-class with missile tubes, a large number of STar Destroyers have been oufitted with missile launchers (you think they were custom modifications, and if so, where the hell did they find the space in them to mount them?) I find it hard to believe the claim "ISD's have no physical weapons."

I might also add that teh known weapons complments of ISD's have been progressively incomplete and revised - (points to absence of the octets on the ISD2, the heavy turrets and brim TLs, etc.) Its not that difficult to imagine they might be missing missile launchers. (Hell, WOTC even gave ISD's "laser cannons" recently!)

[Connor MacLeod]

For that matter, now I'm thinking of it..

The asteroid vaporization incidents in TESB may explain how the DS destroyed Alderaan - there's no reason to believe it would have to vaporize the ENTIRE planet... and TLs have demonstraeted a tremendous lack of momentum so they wouldn't likely "shoot through" the planet or targets (even flimsy obstacles like glass or Ewok glider hides do not really get "punched through.")

And even then, spherical detonation of an object (like a planet) would not neccesarily translate to "flak bursting" in a vaccuum...

[Darth Yoshi]

flak also flack ( fl²k) n. 1. a. Antiaircraft artillery. b. The bursting shells fired from such artillery.

This definition doesn't say that flak must be projectile.

[Connor MacLeod]

flak also flack ( fl²k) n. 1. a. Antiaircraft artillery. b. The bursting shells fired from such artillery.

This definition doesn't say that flak must be projectile.

for the first definition, no, and in that case I agree. For the second definition, it does.


http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/ ... arch=shell

11. arms large explosive projectile: an explosive projectile fired from a large-bore gun such as a field gun or tank gun


12. arms gun cartridge: a piece of ammunition fired by a gun, especially a shotgun cartridge, which holds the shot and explosive powder

[His Divine Shadow]

At best, we might call them a kind of charged particle beam I think, or relegate them to strictly personal weapons being plasma ones (its not neccearily required for capital weapons to be plasma, at least by the DWR VD definitions - which incidentally is the only source I know of directly linking blasters to being plasma weapons.) And nothing in the ICS's to my memory have ever hinted at a plasma-beam weapon. And other sources (EGW&T, SWTJ, etc.) have gone more with a particle-beam theory than anything.

Well I think that the VD quotes and EGWT quotes and so on can be incorporated, particle beam yes, infact Star by Star explicitly mentions the word particle beam in reference to Han's blaster when he is shooting stuff up.

Anyhow blasters have more components than we know, it's possible that the charged tibanna gas is turned into this particle beam somehow:
"Common blaster weapons use high-energy gas for ammunition, activated by a power cell and converted into plasma. The plasma is released from a magnetic bottle effect to fire through collimating componets as a coherent energy bolt."

These collimating components might turn the plasma into said particle beam, or whatever it is, the damaging bolt is clearly invisible and the light is probably just parts of the bolt's quanta degenerating into light(and the invisible bolt and light does not have to be positionally accurate either), and when the bolt intercepts an opaque object, the decay into light is stimulated in a "runaway cascade"(to quote Saxton on the subject) that turns the bolt's internal energy to light, which is absorbed as heat at the impact point.

Superheated target material may explode as a puff of vapour from that site, and this provides the secondary "blast" effect that helps to knock some men off their feet.

There might even be another invisible ranging beam, or component that explains the varying speeds of blaster bolts.

This can also relate to my turbolaser theory, if not override it, since the two are rather different.

[omegaLancer]

I am alway like to assume that theTL and super laser bolt are actually Soliton or Light Bullets ( see link below). Soliton are self focusing packet of energy and in special case they can be made to decay and explode like we see in so call flak burst.

Now the problem is how do you make a soliton and why do we have a slower than light bolt following the invisible potion.

Well I have found several references to the uses of Relavititic plasma that would allow a laser in a vacuum to behave like a soliton.

http://www.mpq.mpg.de/lpg/research/selffoc/selffoc.html

http://www.aps.org/BAPSDPP98/abs/S4100024.html

http://www.eps.org/aps/meet/DPP01/baps/abs/S400162.html

So the purpose of plasma would be to focus the invisible potion of the bolt to increase it range. Such bolts would behave like light bullets. See

http://www.eps.org/aps/meet/DPP01/baps/abs/S400162.html

On this page you can see a host of properties that Such as the way several TL bolt can combine to form a super laser and the exploding flak mode, and the trailing bolt of plasma would explains the glowing bolt that we see following the laser..

Now if the Super laser would miss we would expert it to decay and break apart like an explosion, whether this is usable as an attack is another matter, but suck a blast would have been very useful at Endor and could have most likely destroy a large potion of the rebel fleet with the first shot.

[His Divine Shadow]

Personally, thats unlikely, just because it has plasma in it it's liable to go down the drain, because the bolt is massless gauging from the visuals, no arcing whatsoever.
I think the bolt is instead the invisible bolt's energies degenrating into light.

Also the combining phenomenon and such are more like wave like phenomena, not puffs of gas.

Also, if this plasma had any energies whatsoever it should be white hot, with a glare like a sun, not green, and it should be very rapidly expanding.

Oh and your links doesn't help me the slightest, what do they say?

[His Divine Shadow]

Also, how does it work with bolt's that just dissapear and those that accelerate?

[Darth Garden Gnome]

TL/blaster particles (or at least some kinds of blasters) may be comprised of massless particles, but remember that they cannot be purely photons (since photons don't "overlap" the way superlasers do).

Point taken, concession granted.

It would be hard to visualize any sort of practical mechanism that could do so. This still is assuming that "energy weapons generate spherical explosions" is the only answer at all, however.

Perhaps some "particle" that decays rapidly, and once it is finished it causes an explosion?

How do we know they have no physical weapons? The DS had missile tubes and matter weapons (canon novelization AND radio drama) WEG credited the VSD and Executor-class with missile tubes, a large number of STar Destroyers have been oufitted with missile launchers (you think they were custom modifications, and if so, where the hell did they find the space in them to mount them?) I find it hard to believe the claim "ISD's have no physical weapons."

I might also add that teh known weapons complments of ISD's have been progressively incomplete and revised - (points to absence of the octets on the ISD2, the heavy turrets and brim TLs, etc.) Its not that difficult to imagine they might be missing missile launchers. (Hell, WOTC even gave ISD's "laser cannons" recently!)

Well there is no canon evidence I am aware of that suggests an ISD has any sort of physical weaponry. you seem to be, so please post a quote verifying this.

As for "revisons," they're can be as many as they like, until they actually put the physical armaments on there, they don't exsist!

[His Divine Shadow]

Pg. 156: Soon a web of annihilation began to envelop the station as energy weapons, electrical bolts, and explosive solids ripped out at the oncoming rebel craft.

(ref: Star Wars IV: A New Hope Novellization)

[Darth Garden Gnome]

Pg. 156: Soon a web of annihilation began to envelop the station as energy weapons, electrical bolts, and explosive solids ripped out at the oncoming rebel craft.

(ref: Star Wars IV: A New Hope Novellization)

That would appear to be about the Death Star. I am only interested in ISDs. Unless of course there were ISDs at the Battle of Yavin in the novelization. Please specify if this is so.

[His Divine Shadow]

Thats not the point, the point is that such weapons systems exists, they are not listed on the DS either, only turbolasers and larger weapons systems are listed, why not the same for ISD's?

[His Divine Shadow]

Also, here's a page I just created:
http://hisshadow.123hostnow.com/misc/es ... rbolasers/

[Darth Garden Gnome]

Thats not the point, the point is that such weapons systems exists, they are not listed on the DS either, only turbolasers and larger weapons systems are listed, why not the same for ISD's?

Theres no reason that it wouldn't be the same for ISDs. BUT! Your missing an important note, it's not canon. If the DS has missles and such, that's great. But until I have explicit canon evidence of ISD missles, I aint buying it.

[His Divine Shadow]

The novellizations are canon, and wheter you're buying it or not is irrelevant to LFL policy, if official material even says so, and there's not an explicit conflict, then it dictates that the ISD does have missiles and thats it, it's the law as Judge dredd would say.