ISD II vs MC 90

IceHawk-151 · Post by **IceHawk-151** » 2003-01-04 09:46pm

"...and from beneath the Chimaera's bow a tight column of torpedo trails appeared, five groups of three torpedoes each..."

5x3=15
8x15=120

Each cluster, of which their are atleast 8 of, can fire a total of 15 Torpedoes in varying patterns. If all of those clusters fired in this pattern of 5x3 then 120 torpedoes would be loosed. So Ender, how do you figure there are not 120 torpedoes? Also the "fire all fifteen torpedoes" kinda give credance to the number.

DG_Cal_Wright, where did you see that??

Kazuaki Shimazaki, no computer game that I know of has an Mc90 featured. There are 75 Batteries on the Mc90. Since you seem to have kowledge of WEG could you tell us how long it would take for an ISD II to break down the shields of the Mc90 and vice versa? I'd like to know the game's interpretation of it.

Luke Starkiller · Post by **Luke Starkiller** » 2003-01-04 09:52pm

IceHawk-151 wrote:"...and from beneath the Chimaera's bow a tight column of torpedo trails appeared, five groups of three torpedoes each..."

5x3=15
8x15=120

Each cluster, of which their are atleast 8 of, can fire a total of 15 Torpedoes in varying patterns. If all of those clusters fired in this pattern of 5x3 then 120 torpedoes would be loosed. So Ender, how do you figure there are not 120 torpedoes? Also the "fire all fifteen torpedoes" kinda give credance to the number.

You are assuming that all 15 torps came from 1 cluster, what if there were 5 clusters that were loaded/had firing solutions? It has been a while since I read Spectre of the Past so it may back up what you say.

IceHawk-151 · Post by **IceHawk-151** » 2003-01-04 09:58pm

Luke Starkiller wrote: You are assuming that all 15 torps came from 1 cluster, what if there were 5 clusters that were loaded/had firing solutions? It has been a while since I read Spectre of the Past so it may back up what you say.

The quote is at the top of the page. Pellaeon ordered only Cluster #8 to open fire.

IceHawk-151 · Post by **IceHawk-151** » 2003-01-04 10:02pm

...or not.

Apparently I listed the quote in another thread. I though it was here.

The exact quote is..."Stand by Number Eight Proton Torpedo Cluster, All fifteen torpedoes to fire in a three-by-five sequence along vector two-three by seven"

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-01-04 10:06pm

IceHawk-151 wrote:"...and from beneath the Chimaera's bow a tight column of torpedo trails appeared, five groups of three torpedoes each..."

5x3=15
8x15=120

Each cluster, of which their are atleast 8 of, can fire a total of 15 Torpedoes in varying patterns. If all of those clusters fired in this pattern of 5x3 then 120 torpedoes would be loosed. So Ender, how do you figure there are not 120 torpedoes? Also the "fire all fifteen torpedoes" kinda give credance to the number.

Read the fucking quote. 5 groups of 3 torpedoes. 5 volleys of three. As in three tubes launched 5 torpedoes each. So 8 x 3 = 24.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-01-04 10:07pm

IceHawk-151 wrote:...or not.

Apparently I listed the quote in another thread. I though it was here.

The exact quote is..."Stand by Number Eight Proton Torpedo Cluster, All fifteen torpedoes to fire in a three-by-five sequence along vector two-three by seven"

Which establishes a magazine for the tubes of 5 torps.

IceHawk-151 · Post by **IceHawk-151** » 2003-01-04 11:00pm

I can't believe you're fighting against arming an ISD with an 120 Proton Torpedoes Ender. We must be more alike then I thought.

If there were only 3 tubes Pelleaon would not have had to specify a firing pattern. He could have easily stated ..."Stand by Number Eight Proton Torpedo Cluster, All fifteen torpedoes to fire along vector two-three by seven"

If Clusters only have 3 tubes each and only 15 Torpedoes as ammo the default would for each tube to fire it's magazine of 5, creating the 5x3 pattern. Zahn stressed the fact there was a firing pattern.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2003-01-05 12:22am

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Your assumption. Wedge has commanded small forces w/ a light frigate as commandship.

Saxton estimates the Mediator is of Mon Calamari build and of battlecruiser size IIRC. Furthermore it Mon Cal-build means it is probably chock-full of inconviences and Mon Cal customizations that make it shit for stock-humans and near-humans to understand and to command large fleet presences from. It was ok when the heart of the Rebel/NR fleets consisted of almost entirely higher-end Mon Cal ships, but where you have large Corellian vessels; and Republic/Nebula-classes of SD, you're looking for that C3I capability. ISDs are fast and have excellent range and survivability as well as long-range communications and versatility. The Mediator was going to be spearheading against a still largely-unfamiliar foe with which they didn't have much luck with. I understand why they made the likely smaller, weaker ISD as a commandship. Of course this is just a theory, I could be wrong.

Yes, but the force I was remembering was about the strength of a NR Task Force or an old Imperial Squadron. If the biggest ship you have is some light frigate, then of course your flag goes there.

Saxton estimates, but he doesn't really have a picture, video or stat, and ship designations in SW in GENERAL are loose as all hell. In fact, I've heard of a Kaloth-class "battlecruiser" that's obsolete, small, and will be annihilated within a minute by a ISD-II. By the time of the MC90, the Mon Cals were already moving away from the Mon Cal customizations, and in fact on Mon Remonda, a MC-80B, we already have a human sensor officer named Golorno on the bridge.

MC-90s were supposed to be fit for commanding large fleet elements, as judged by the fact Ackbar transferred onto one of them, and I would think that since MC-90 sized ships (1200-1600m size bracket) were becoming the largest ships in the NR fleet, the Mediator will preserve that excellent C3I ability.

Generally, you put an advance guard ahead of your most powerful ship to take the blows, to reconnoiter. Of course, maybe we're reading too much into it, but this is my read of the situation if it has any meaning.

Also, a Star Destroyer is generally more powerful offensively, while the Mon Cal designs tend to be superior defensively. If you really want to play safe, you should put the staff in the safest place - the Mediator. The enemy will try to suppress their strongest threat first, which is based on offensive power, and shoot at the ISD.

And Ender, I was most definitely not thinking of the Mon Mothma. In fact, I don't even know a ship of that name until just now. What I do remember is the Erinnic. It was a battle with no main characters, but Han was in that station the Vong were trying to get at.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-01-05 12:40am

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote: And Ender, I was most definitely not thinking of the Mon Mothma. In fact, I don't even know a ship of that name until just now. What I do remember is the Erinnic. It was a battle with no main characters, but Han was in that station the Vong were trying to get at.

Battle of Ord Mantel. Wedge was not there, but it was an ISD2

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-01-05 12:45am

IceHawk-151 wrote:I can't believe you're fighting against arming an ISD with an 120 Proton Torpedoes Ender. We must be more alike then I thought.

I'd rather be right and weak then wrong and strong

If there were only 3 tubes Pelleaon would not have had to specify a firing pattern. He could have easily stated ..."Stand by Number Eight Proton Torpedo Cluster, All fifteen torpedoes to fire along vector two-three by seven"

If Clusters only have 3 tubes each and only 15 Torpedoes as ammo the default would for each tube to fire it's magazine of 5, creating the 5x3 pattern. Zahn stressed the fact there was a firing pattern.

I think the problem here is that I read it as a claim of 120 tubes, not 120 torps

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-01-05 12:46am

Ender wrote:
Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote: And Ender, I was most definitely not thinking of the Mon Mothma. In fact, I don't even know a ship of that name until just now. What I do remember is the Erinnic. It was a battle with no main characters, but Han was in that station the Vong were trying to get at.
Battle of Ord Mantel. Wedge was not there, but it was an ISD2

OK, looking back I totally Fubar'ed everyones position here. Disregard the above post

Cal Wright · Post by **Cal Wright** » 2003-01-05 02:23am

You also double posted.

MC-90 wins hands down. Alright people let's pack it up and head home.

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2003-01-07 01:04pm

DG_Cal_Wright wrote:You also double posted.

MC-90 wins hands down. Alright people let's pack it up and head home.

Hands down? I'm going to have to resort to WEG scales here, since there's so little evidence available.

MC90
Turbolaser Batteries = 75 x 4D = 300 hit dice.
Missile Tubes = 6 x 6d+1 = 35+6 hit dice.
Ion cannons = 30 x 3D = 90 hit dice.
Fire control
Shields = 12 hit dice.
Hull = 7 hit dice.

ISDII
Turbolaser Batteries = 50 x 10D = 500 hit dice.
Turbolaser Cannons = 50 x 7D = 350 hit dice.
Ion cannons = 20 x 4D = 80 hit dice.
Shields = 2 hit dice + 2.
Hull 7 hit dice +1.

If those numbers display anywhere near the relative strenght of the two types of ships, the battle is far from one-sided in favour of the MC90.

Andras · Post by **Andras** » 2003-01-08 01:20pm

Actually, according to the WEG scaling rules, the I2 cannot easily harm the M90, while the M90 has a decent chance of putting down the I2. The reason is, the shields and hull dice combine to resist the incoming damage- M90- 19d, I2heavy battery 10d. There is almost no chance of a single battery harming a M90. To combine battery's, 2=+1die, 4=+2d, 6=+3d, 10=+4d, 15=+5d, 25=+6die. I can't remember the next steps, but even if the next step was all 50=+7d, the I2 is still 2d short of an even chance of harming the m90 with the 50 heavy batteries, and zero chance with the single heavy turbos. Otoh, it only takes 25 of the 75 batterys on the M90 for an even chance of harming the I2. I am ignoring the designated firing arcs, which means that all batterys can't bear on one target anyway.

The PTs on the I2 are anti-fighter PTs, not anti-capship. The M90s and VSDs silos _are_ anti-capship tubes

IceHawk-151 · Post by **IceHawk-151** » 2003-01-08 04:03pm

According to Spectre of the Past the Proton Torpedoes on an ISD Mark II are meant to blast through capital ship hulls.

Thanks for the WEG info btw.

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2003-01-08 10:37pm

Andras wrote:Actually, according to the WEG scaling rules, the I2 cannot easily harm the M90, while the M90 has a decent chance of putting down the I2. The reason is, the shields and hull dice combine to resist the incoming damage- M90- 19d, I2heavy battery 10d. There is almost no chance of a single battery harming a M90. To combine battery's, 2=+1die, 4=+2d, 6=+3d, 10=+4d, 15=+5d, 25=+6die. I can't remember the next steps, but even if the next step was all 50=+7d, the I2 is still 2d short of an even chance of harming the m90 with the 50 heavy batteries, and zero chance with the single heavy turbos. Otoh, it only takes 25 of the 75 batterys on the M90 for an even chance of harming the I2. I am ignoring the designated firing arcs, which means that all batterys can't bear on one target anyway.

The PTs on the I2 are anti-fighter PTs, not anti-capship. The M90s and VSDs silos _are_ anti-capship tubes

That doesn't work. Even if you don't combine batteries, the ISDII will have 52% chance of penetration, while the MC90 gets 40%.

But in all fairness, there's also slightly better fire control for the MC90s TLs which may even things out a bit. After all, I'm only giving penetration here, not hit chances. Still, you'll never convince me it's a walkover.

Andras · Post by **Andras** » 2003-01-09 11:53am

nightmare wrote:
Andras wrote:Actually, according to the WEG scaling rules, the I2 cannot easily harm the M90, while the M90 has a decent chance of putting down the I2. The reason is, the shields and hull dice combine to resist the incoming damage- M90- 19d, I2heavy battery 10d. There is almost no chance of a single battery harming a M90. To combine battery's, 2=+1die, 4=+2d, 6=+3d, 10=+4d, 15=+5d, 25=+6die. I can't remember the next steps, but even if the next step was all 50=+7d, the I2 is still 2d short of an even chance of harming the m90 with the 50 heavy batteries, and zero chance with the single heavy turbos. Otoh, it only takes 25 of the 75 batterys on the M90 for an even chance of harming the I2. I am ignoring the designated firing arcs, which means that all batterys can't bear on one target anyway.

That doesn't work. Even if you don't combine batteries, the ISDII will have 52% chance of penetration, while the MC90 gets 40%.

Huh?
Without combined fire I2 heavy battery=10d damage(avg35), M90= 19d defense (avg66.5) resistance. How do you get a 52% chance of damage there?

Remember, shields and hull are combined for the purposes of damage resistance, and WEG's system is not ablative.

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2003-01-09 01:56pm

10/19, or 35/66,5 if you prefer.

Andras · Post by **Andras** » 2003-01-09 04:02pm

Dude, they are both bell curves. Those are the averages yes, but you can't say the I2 has a 35/66.5 of doing damage. It's damn near impossible at 10d vs 19d. Besides, the damage has to exceed the resistance, so even at 19d vs 19d, it's still about a 50/50 ( any damage under is totally ignored)

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2003-01-09 04:54pm

Statistically it's a bell curve. But in any one flip of a dice, each number has equal chances. I wouldn't call it hard to beat 19 dice with 10, I've done it many more times than I can remember.

Besides, it doesn't effect the point even if you use a thousand ships on either side. The MC90 still has a lower chance of doing damage. Come to think of it, is there any d20 stats for the ships in the WOTC game?

Draco Starcloud · Post by **Draco Starcloud** » 2003-01-11 11:46pm

Wedge had 30 ships in his fleet in New Rebellion? I must have missed something.

Anyways, I think the Impstar II would win, because it looks to me like the Impstar II could bring more guns to bear (just aim everything foward and shoot!) than the MC-90.

This is all based on appearance and the #s for armaments I've heard each ship has. Nothing fancy like card games and sourcebooks (okay, so I did read the Essential Guide to Ships even though the time it mentions the MC-90 it just says it's more powerful than the MC-80 and insinuates that's it's more powerful than the MC-80b.)