Question - Why all the Thrawn love?

[Thanas]

Terrible sorry for neglecting the debate, I had to do some university work which required archive duty and the study of some sources for some weeks.

Quite clearly, the Rebel breakthrough is a significant action, and even the usually calm Grand Admiral sees just how costly it could be. The Rebel fleet had been hopelessly pinned down, but they now have an avenue of attack into the unprotected shipyards, which they are taking full advantage of. Its effect is seen in the following.

Quite right - they can attack the shipyards at will, and cause significant damage, even possibly its complete destruction.

However, this has no effect on the overall situation of the rebel fleet, which was still pinned down and getting pounded. As long as the imperial bowl-shaped formation was holding they could pummel the rebel ships at will, which is precisely what Corran is saying. What he, wedge and ackbar are all saying is that their attack would not have succeeded in freeing the rebel ships if the imperials would not have breaken up their attack and fled. Note that the rebel forces who manage to slip past the imp formation do not try to turn the imperial flank, but charge into the shipyards, trying to draw away the imps. (An indication that they were not strong enough to do so, which is further enhanced by the tactical description of the Imperial formation continuing to contract around the rebel formation and thereby enhancing their pressure.

'Pellaeon looked up at the viewports. At the chaos that had erupted behind the defenses of the supposedly secure shipyards; at the unexpected need to split his forces to its defense; at the Rebel fleet taking full advantage of the diversion. In the blink of an eye, the universe had suddenly turned against them. Thrawn could still have pulled an Imperial victory out of it. But he, Pellaeon, was not Thrawn.'
This from the now de-facto commander of the fleet, who is all too aware of the fact that the Imperials have lost the initiative, and he will not be able to regain it. Corran Horn's quote is of a lesser validity than that from the bridge of the Chimaera: Thrawn is in command of the Imperial fleet, it is his operation, and only he and his officers can fully appreciate how the actions of the enemy change the state of affair.

Pellaeon, who has just witnessed his idol being murdered, has spent the last period of time recovering from a stunning noghri blow to the throat and is now besieged by calls from officers while still gasping for air is supposed to be somehow able to form an objective judgement? But lets assume that he is. He is clearly trying to achieve two objectives: a) defense of the shipyards and b) destruction of the rebel fleet.

A) is not possible at the moment, unless he splits his force, which would then enable the rebel fleet to break through. So, instead of concentrating his forces on b), he recognizes he cannot do both and throws the fight.

There is nothing in TLC which disproves Corrans (Stackpoles) assessment that the IN could have destroyed the rebel forces while sacrificing the shipyards. Heck, not even Ackbar believed it had the power to be decisive.
Which was my main point. I would therefore suggest that Pellaeon made his decision at least partly on the stress he was under. Note that this is the same guy who may have ordered an retreat at Endor despite two superior officers still fighting. (I said may have, because the debate about that incident was inconclusive, IMO) Pellaeon also does not acknowledge the fact that the rebel fleet is still barrelled up by the IN.

I'm sorry, but how does this show any counter-measures to Rogue flank attack? The problem was never about whether Rogue and the cap ships following would had defeated the fleet. It was about the need to protect the shipyards.

I do not dispute the fact that the rebels may have destroyed the entire Bilbringi shipyard (If the two Golans were the entire defense of the biggest imperial shipyard, which seems unlikely). However, this huge loss would have been balanced out by the fact that the rebels would have lost a huge portion of their fleet, including their highest-ranking admiral, several elite ships and squadrons as well as the severe moral blow.

I further do not believe that the rebels have gained the initiative. Maybe they are shooting up the shipyards, but this would not have changed the tactical situation regarding the main portions of the rebel fleet. If Pellaeon had sacrificed the shipyards and pressed the attack...but he did not. He, suffering from a nervous shock as well as a the effects of a physical attack looked at the shipyards, thought that he could not protect them, and ordered a retreat.

Note that the rebel fleet does in no way disturb the Imperial retreat. Hardly the behavior of a fleet that has gained the initiative. An imperial force, which is shockingly slow in retreat due to being forced to recover their non-hyperspace capable fighters, would have been a perfect target.But the rebel fleet did not attack, signifying that they either were in no condition to do so or did not gain the initiative.

[GrandAdmiralJello]

The fact that Pelly's assessment of the situation dramatically differs from the Rogues' and Ackbar's assessment should be indicative that, once again, Pelly is having his usual attack of cowardice.

[Lord Pounder]

The fact that Pelly's assessment of the situation dramatically differs from the Rogues' and Ackbar's assessment should be indicative that, once again, Pelly is having his usual attack of cowardice.

Are you retarded? Pellaeon is no Ackbar, very few Imps except Thrawn where on his level of skill. Pellaeon rightly ordered the Fleet to withdraw becuase he knew he couldn't pull a victory, better to lose a shipyard rather than the last active element of the Imperial Fleet. He preserved his assets and didn't throw them away in anger as Thrawn taught him to do, as Thrawn himself had done at Billbringi(sp?). As for the Rogues WTF dies a bunch of fighter jocks know about fleet engagments that a Fleet Captain in the Imperial Fleet dosn't know.

[Lazarus]

As for the Rogues WTF dies a bunch of fighter jocks know about fleet engagments that a Fleet Captain in the Imperial Fleet dosn't know.

This is exactly my point. The Imperial formation has been COMPROMISED. The fact that Rebel forces are pushing through into positions where they CAN completely outflank IN vessels means that they now have the initiative. They choose to push hard on the breach, which the redeployment of the Assault Frigates shows, and comments from the bridge of the Chimaera show that even Thrawn is worried at the turn of events. I have quoted this before, and I will quote it again, because clearly some people are having trouble reading it:

'Pellaeon looked up at the viewports. At the chaos that had erupted behind the defenses of the supposedly secure shipyards; at the unexpected need to split his forces to its defense; at the Rebel fleet taking full advantage of the diversion.'

At this point in the battle, the Imperial Navy is no longer calling the shots. If Pellaeon tries to hold his position, he WILL be outflanked. The idea that the IN remains in control because their vessels are still following their original orders is flawed, because we can clearly see in TLC that between Thrawn's death and Pellaeon's retreat command no new orders are sent by the fleets CO (clearly Pellaeon, els ehe could not have ordered the retreat). The Nemesis and Stormhawk both ask for orders in reaction to the Rebel fleet movements, and it is at this point that Pellaeon orders a retreat. We can then see the IN vessels following this order in Isard's Revenge.

The fact that Pelly's assessment of the situation dramatically differs from the Rogues' and Ackbar's assessment should be indicative that, once again, Pelly is having his usual attack of cowardice.

At which point to we see Ackbar's assesment of the situation? The only mention of him during the retreat is an order for the Rogues to return to the Rebel flagship. The Rogues are fighter jocks, not naval officers, and so Pellaeon's judgement of the situation IS more valid than Corran's. If Pellaeon had tried to continue the engagement, he would have been outflanked and destroyed, and the Rebels would have taken the shipyards anyway. Thrawn taught him to retreat when facing defeat, rather than fight to the bloody end, and this is exactly what he does. Many of the vessels under his command at Bilbringi go on to play important roles in future Imperial campaigns, to say nothing of Pellaeon himself, so clearly in the long term he made the correct decision.

[Darth Fanboy]

REgards to the OP:

You'll find that around here that, although Thrawn is respected as one of the few decent EU Characters, that there are people such as myself that think Thrawn's uberintelligence and supposed invincibility are a brain bug. HE was very very good, but as we see with certain elements of Star Wars fandom, they latch on to a character or group of characters and elevate them beyond all others (Yes i'm looking at you Karen Traviss).

[FTeik]

What I liked about Thrawn was that he made mistakes without looking stupid, that he came to conclusions that were wrong, but totally reasonable given the information that was available to him.

[GrandAdmiralJello]

The fact that Pelly's assessment of the situation dramatically differs from the Rogues' and Ackbar's assessment should be indicative that, once again, Pelly is having his usual attack of cowardice.

Are you retarded? Pellaeon is no Ackbar, very few Imps except Thrawn where on his level of skill. Pellaeon rightly ordered the Fleet to withdraw becuase he knew he couldn't pull a victory, better to lose a shipyard rather than the last active element of the Imperial Fleet. He preserved his assets and didn't throw them away in anger as Thrawn taught him to do, as Thrawn himself had done at Billbringi(sp?). As for the Rogues WTF dies a bunch of fighter jocks know about fleet engagments that a Fleet Captain in the Imperial Fleet dosn't know.

It's very clear that Pelly is no Ackbar. Thank you for conceding that Pelly is not an Ackbar, though--let's break this down then.

Pelly is scared and thinks the Imperial fleet is doomed.

Corran Horn and Wedge Antilles, despite being known as a high-morale unit that can "do the impossible" and even after being the architects of the Rebel break out, are panicked.

Admiral Ackbar is mystified about the Imperial retreat and does not take advantage of it.

Since we're well aware that Ackbar is vastly superior to the likes of Pelly, whose judgment should we trust?

You're certainly correct that Pelly couldn't have pulled a victory out of it. His morose sense of doom in elementary combat situations tends to diminish the value of his command. Rather than reposition his ships for a straight-up engagement he retreated as soon as it became clear that the pre-planned battle orders weren't going to work.

In case you were unaware, battles are rarely won entirely due to plans formulated well in advance. Just a little bit of tactical ingenuity--as well as some slight nerve--could help. Pelly's not really familiar with either.

Lazarus:

This is exactly my point. The Imperial formation has been COMPROMISED. The fact that Rebel forces are pushing through into positions where they CAN completely outflank IN vessels means that they now have the initiative. They choose to push hard on the breach, which the redeployment of the Assault Frigates shows, and comments from the bridge of the Chimaera show that even Thrawn is worried at the turn of events. I have quoted this before, and I will quote it again, because clearly some people are having trouble reading it:

Oh dear me, their formation has been compromised. The world is over, let's pull out the white flag.

Ships have these little things called thrusters. Ships have these little things called communications arrays. Naval officers use something called tactics. Maybe the video game generation is unaware that there's a bit more to warfare than planning out your strategy hours in advance and then watching it play out like a movie.

Thank you for quoting the relevant passage, though I assure you I'm quite capable of reading. I should tell you that once something is read, it needs to be synthesized.

Your passage tells us nothing except that Pelly thinks that the situation is untenable. Beyond that, one needs to look at the contrasting material and realize that there's a dramatic difference in what's being portrayed in either book. Since we're talking about people's assessments of a situation, considering the source (which is usually a BAD thing to do) is appropriate. Pelly has a history of declaring battles lost and retreating. We saw this at Merson, we saw this at Endor, and we see this at Bilbringi.

At this point in the battle, the Imperial Navy is no longer calling the shots. If Pellaeon tries to hold his position, he WILL be outflanked. The idea that the IN remains in control because their vessels are still following their original orders is flawed, because we can clearly see in TLC that between Thrawn's death and Pellaeon's retreat command no new orders are sent by the fleets CO (clearly Pellaeon, els ehe could not have ordered the retreat). The Nemesis and Stormhawk both ask for orders in reaction to the Rebel fleet movements, and it is at this point that Pellaeon orders a retreat. We can then see the IN vessels following this order in Isard's Revenge.

So, in naval warfare, what does one do when they lose the initiative? Do they try to regain it? Do they reposition and try something else, or do they retreat and give the enemy the field?

The Imperial Navy lost the ability to demolish the Rebel fleet in a trap. However, their secondary goal is to keep the Rebellion from the shipyard. Their tertiary goal is to prevent the acquisition of a Crystal Gravfield Trap.

Rather than trying to drive the Rebels from the field (which is still a victory), Pelly prefers to high-tail it out of the battle. He's lost none of his capital ships and he's only had a slight break in his formation as a group of starfighters and frigates blast past the shipyard defenses. Again, he's no longer capable of annihilating the Rebels, but keeping them from winning the day is still a possibility.

Thrawn looked grim because his trap had failed. Thrawn was not grim because he was losing.

One does not retreat because ships need new orders. If Pelly is incapable of doing that much, if he freezes in panic due to a change in the tactical situation, he is grossly unfit for command of an Imperial Star Destroyer. He is definately unfit for supreme command of the fleet of any group, even an ex-warlord regime unworthy of the Empire's name. What can one expect, though, for someone who's spent half a century in the Imperial Navy and is still a post captain?

At which point to we see Ackbar's assesment of the situation? The only mention of him during the retreat is an order for the Rogues to return to the Rebel flagship. The Rogues are fighter jocks, not naval officers, and so Pellaeon's judgement of the situation IS more valid than Corran's. If Pellaeon had tried to continue the engagement, he would have been outflanked and destroyed, and the Rebels would have taken the shipyards anyway. Thrawn taught him to retreat when facing defeat, rather than fight to the bloody end, and this is exactly what he does. Many of the vessels under his command at Bilbringi go on to play important roles in future Imperial campaigns, to say nothing of Pellaeon himself, so clearly in the long term he made the correct decision.

I'll agree that Pelly played a crucial role in the utter defeat of the Empire, yes. I'm still not certain how someone's survival and subsequent appearance in history means that a decision was correctly made.

I suppose that Hannibal's reappearance among the satrapy of Tigranes years after the Second Punic Wars meant that his decision to rely almost entirely on elephants during Zama was a sound one? I suppose Hannibal's temporary and short-lived revival of Carthago means that his defeat was in the best interests of the Carthaginian people?

Thrawn did *not* teach Pelly to retreat. Thrawn instructed him that futile heroics are ill-advised when there is nothing to gain by them. It is better to fight another day than to die when you cannnot change anything.

Thrawn did not instruct Pelly to abandon one's territories and quit the field rather than pursue a less than complete victory. You'll note that when Thrawn was unable to capture the entire Katana Fleet, he settled for what he could get. You'll note that when Thrawn was unable to trap Zaarin with the Nichevo convoy, he'd dealt with whatever he could destroy. You'll note that when it was critical to hold a position, even when dramatically outnumbered, he did so--as with HIMS Grey Wolf's stand against the cruiser group Black Box.

Thrawn even went as far as to take significant risks when there was a considerable payoff. So not only did he never consider utterly abandoning his post when more could be done, but he did take gambles.

Pelly, by contrast, is unwilling to even make the slightest effort at engagement. He's already decided that he's lost, and that's that.

I pity the Remnant's youth just as I pity the New Republic's. When people like Pelly and Fey'lya are lionized due to their age alone it's pretty clear that something's wrong.

[Noble Ire]

I fail to see how you can be so supremely confident in the chances of the Imperial fleet after Thrawn's death, GrandAdmiralJello. Very little of the actual position and condition of each fleet is recounted, other than the fact that the Republic was breaking the Imperial formation. The musings of a pair of fighter pilots, for all their bravado and experience, count for exactly nothing when consdiering the overall state of the battle, and not once is Ackbar's actual opinion of his situation recounted.

This is what is known, from Pellaeon's point of view:

- Thrawn has just been assassinated and he himself has nearly been killed; the assassin is still loose onboard the ship.

- The Republic is taking full advantage of the lack of coordination on their opponent's part to push forward and break apart the Imperial formations. Additionally, one of the chief Imperial defensive stations has just been compromised.

- Pellaeon is called upon almost immediately after the assissination to relay orders to some fo the most significant ships in his force, while he has yet to catch his breath.


You are correct, Pellaeon is not Thrawn. Thrawn has both far more experience in fleet command, and a tactical skill that far exceeds Pellaeon's, by his own admission. Perhaps Thrawn, if he had survived, would have pulled out some briliant strategy and crushed the Republic to dust. But Pellaeon simply did not have access to the abilities that his commander had. Does this comparitive weakness mean that Pellaeon is incopetent by default? Of course not; to imply as much would essentially mean claiming that virtually every captain and admiral in the galaxy was unfit for command, simply because they weren't as good at it as Thrawn. Pellaeon had to work with the skills at his disposal, more basic tactical knowledge, and using it, he couldn't see a way to victory in the situation he had been thrown into. Claiming his decision was based purely on cowardice, based on nothing more than one (perhaps two) previous and equally conditional events, is quite foolish.

Additionally, your arrogant, "OMG I know so much about tacticz" bit is moronic. Of course broken formations can be reformed, but that does not mean that an intervening break can't completely doom an operation. The shipyards, the defense of which was one of Thrawn's primary objectives, were being overrun by fighters, and the main Republican fleet was gaining on the the Imperial force. Knowing just that, the Imperial position would seem to be critically weak; if we knew more about the general condition of both fleet, we might be able to devise a method, perhaps even an obvious one, for Pellaeon to regain the initative, but we don't. We just have his perspective, and he saw it fit to withdraw. Even with his less than stellar record, his opinion cannot be discounted without evidence to go against it.

[GrandAdmiralJello]

We know of a few things, including the fact that none of the Imperial fleet's Star Destroyers have been destroyed. Additionally, the Rebel group was not, in fact, breaking the Imperial formation apart until after the retreat has been ordered. See page eight of Isard's Revenge.

It is not the ordinary practice of the Rebellion to let an enemy fleet retreat in good order. Ackbar saw fit to leave the Imperial group alone for its retreat, which is something significant. Additionally, it is unwise to ignore evidence from experienced viewpoints regardless of their occupation. Wedge Antilles is a very reliable source on these matters, he's not at all like Corran Horn.

- Thrawn has just been assassinated and he himself has nearly been killed; the assassin is still loose onboard the ship.

- The Republic is taking full advantage of the lack of coordination on their opponent's part to push forward and break apart the Imperial formations. Additionally, one of the chief Imperial defensive stations has just been compromised.

- Pellaeon is called upon almost immediately after the assissination to relay orders to some fo the most significant ships in his force, while he has yet to catch his breath.

I. He'll be dealt with, this temporary problem doesn't make the entire battlefield a rout.

II. Untrue--IR clearly states that the Imperial cone only broke apart when the fleet began to secure outbound retreat vectors. The destruction of a single defense station doesn't mean anything.

III. Oh, poor Pelly. Maybe if he had some flowers and tissues he'd have been emotionally recovered enough to do his job?

I would like to know how many times one has to consistently retreat before people stop making excuses for you? Aside from his retreats in three dramatically different situations, he's also presided over the a period of shrinkage in his own quasi-Imperial regime.

An argument from ignorance is not a valid counter. You're saying that I'm wrong--and indeed moronically so--because "we don't know?" Sorry, but that's just bad logic.

His fleet was intact. The only problems he'd been facing was a single destroyed defense station which would require him to split his forces. Oh no, he has to use his head a little! It's abundantly clear Thrawn picked Pelly because he was good at following instructions, but when circumstances require he use his head a little he breaks down. With the information we're given, from several sources, it's pretty clear what the situation was. Even given what isn't known, it's also evident that the battle is not an Endor-style rout. Everything is crisp and under control up until that moment.

Thrawn's analogy of the combat computer came true after all, though. Except he was the computer and everyone was bereft without him. What was that line--"Yes, you fought on. Like cadets." It rings hauntingly true, doesn't it?

Even with his less than stellar record, his opinion cannot be discounted without evidence to go against it.

There is evidence to go against it. But of course, fighter pilots don't know any better. They're just good at playing with their joysticks, evidently.

It's very easy to call someone's argument moronic when you decide to invalidate the evidence they've employed. Shall I proceed to call Pelly an incompetent liar who shouldn't be trusted with a bulk freighter much less an Imperial fleet?

After all, the last big retreat we got from his perspective was similarly incorrect. Do you recall Lord Vader commanding the fleet at Endor? Pelly said he was. Let's trust this impeccable officer and believe him!

Please. Dismissing the testimony of Wedge Antilles while championing Pelly's is lunacy.

[Noble Ire]

An argument from ignorance is not a valid counter. You're saying that I'm wrong--and indeed moronically so--because "we don't know?" Sorry, but that's just bad logic.

As you are so willing to point out, we only know that the Imperial fleet is still largely intact. That alone is not sufficent evidence to counter Pellaeon's final decision; even a vastly superior force, if sufficently outmanuevered, can be left badly disadvantaged, perhaps even critically so. However, an appeal to ignorance is improper, and I apologize for it. As such, Pellaeon's opinion of the battlefield can't fully make up for a lack of data on the actual state of his force, and in the face of at least some evidence to corroborate your arguement, I shall concede the point.


Nevertheless, I am perplexed by what appears to be a rabid hatred for Pellaeon on your part. Certainly, he is not a tactical or strategic genius like Thrawn, and his decision at the Battle of Endor was questionable at the very least (as perhaps his choice at Bilbringi), but the ire you are laying upon him seems to be unjustified.

First of all, I was under the impression that the incident at Merson could not have actually been Pellaeon himself, considering that his apparent age and rank at the time to not match up with later data on his career (the figure in question may have been his father). Secondly, you seem to blame the downfall of the Remnant on Pellaeon; this is wholly unjustified. By the time he assumed control of the state, decades of failed warlords and internal struggles had already weakened it almost beyond repair, and stripped it of all but a few hundred systems. Under Pellaeon's rule, however, its internal collapse was suspended, peace was achieved with the Republic (neutralizing a foe that the Remnant could not possibly have faced again), and the body was military strengthened enough to repel the Yuuzhan Vong during their invasion, as well as enabled to take an active role in galactic defense afterwards. Additionally, Pellaeon's own tactical and stategic abilities seem to have improved significantly after his ascension (as seen at the Battle of Borosk), as well as his ability to inspire and lead.

There is no arguing that Pellaeon's early career was successful (indeed, had it not been for the confusion following the Emperor's death, he probably should and would have been stripped of his rank). However, I do not think he is worthy of the scorn you lay upon him.

[GrandAdmiralJello]

Why do I dislike Pelly? Endor. He should have been court martialed at the least for his actions. It was not his place to issue that retreat over the heads of over a dozen superior officers. His actions contributed much to the rout that was Endor. Obviously no one, not even Grand Admiral Teshik, could have turned that one into a victory. It could have been better, though, if Teshik was supported instead of abandoned (contrast the PoV of the omniscient narrator in the Insider article with the whitewashing of the NR Historical Council in the NEC) more damage could have been dealt to the Rebels, or at the very least, Teshik could have been extricated--he was far too valuable. The TaB SB does say that it would only take three Star Destroyers to defeat the wounded Rebel fleet after Endor.

Part of my distaste for him is due to the lionization he's achieved in his later years. He's wholly unworthy of the honors heaped upon him, and is not fit to wear that white uniform.

As for Merson, I follow the point that Publius has brought forward in the past: characters such as Palpatine are portrayed as older than they should be in that particular issue of Republic. This is due to the tendancy of people to be portrayed as they are in the 'present.' So the Pelly we see is not the same age as the Pelly that we see. After all, even by Merson, Pelly was supposed to still have been in the Navy for two decades. That would put him anywhere from 30 to 40 years old(I'm being very rough here, sorry)--his father would be too old to be that captain Pellæon we see.

EDIT: Ah, and I certainly blame Pelly for the collapse of the Remnant (an entity he created out of the warlord holdings bequeathed to him by Daala) but I don't blame him in particular for the collapse of the Empire itself.

He was in command for several years before the peace accords where even his new regime shrunk.

[Noble Ire]

Why do I dislike Pelly? Endor. He should have been court martialed at the least for his actions. It was not his place to issue that retreat over the heads of over a dozen superior officers. His actions contributed much to the rout that was Endor. Obviously no one, not even Grand Admiral Teshik, could have turned that one into a victory. It could have been better, though, if Teshik was supported instead of abandoned (contrast the PoV of the omniscient narrator in the Insider article with the whitewashing of the NR Historical Council in the NEC) more damage could have been dealt to the Rebels, or at the very least, Teshik could have been extricated--he was far too valuable. The TaB SB does say that it would only take three Star Destroyers to defeat the wounded Rebel fleet after Endor.

I completely agree with this assessment of the incident. Pellaeon was neither qualified or authorized to deliver a retreat order at Endor, even when all exenuating circumstances (the loss of the DSII and the Executor, the lapse in Imperial battle meditation, the death of his captain) are considered.

Part of my distaste for him is due to the lionization he's achieved in his later years. He's wholly unworthy of the honors heaped upon him, and is not fit to wear that white uniform.

I would still maintain that Pellaeon redeemed himself in his later career. Of course, I also think that Vader's redemption in ROTJ was valid, at least in some respects, so take that viewpoint as you will.

As for Merson, I follow the point that Publius has brought forward in the past: characters such as Palpatine are portrayed as older than they should be in that particular issue of Republic. This is due to the tendancy of people to be portrayed as they are in the 'present.' So the Pelly we see is not the same age as the Pelly that we see. After all, even by Merson, Pelly was supposed to still have been in the Navy for two decades. That would put him anywhere from 30 to 40 years old(I'm being very rough here, sorry)--his father would be too old to be that captain Pellæon we see.

I do recall Publius' theory, now that you mention it. I suppose it is a valid explanation of the apparent discrepancy.

Ah, and I certainly blame Pelly for the collapse of the Remnant (an entity he created out of the warlord holdings bequeathed to him by Daala) but I don't blame him in particular for the collapse of the Empire itself.

He was in command for several years before the peace accords where even his new regime shrunk.

I still don't see how he's responsible for the Remnant's deminishment before the accords. Even if support for him was unilateral after his ascension (which it almost certainly was not), the state was already so reduced militarily by seperatist warlords and political infighting that its continued reduction in size and power was inevitable. Pellaeon managed to halt this decline, even if it took him several years to do it.

[GrandAdmiralJello]

Redemption or not, I don't much care for the Remnant. He failed the Empire, and that's enough for me.

[Lazarus]

We know of a few things, including the fact that none of the Imperial fleet's Star Destroyers have been destroyed

Actually, as I said in one of my posts not long ago, we don't know this. In the graphic version of TLC, a crippled ISD can be seen through the bridge windows of Chimaera, having evidently lost power and heavily venting atmosphere. In Isard's Revenge, it is stated that the IN fleet leaves behind several crippled vessels, and this ISD could well be one of them.

Untrue--IR clearly states that the Imperial cone only broke apart when the fleet began to secure outbound retreat vectors. The destruction of a single defense station doesn't mean anything.

Actually, it does, and the point stands. Ignoring my comments about this in my last post doesn't make it go away. The cone was continuing to contract because those were the fleets orders: this does not mean that the IN still have the upper hand, it just shows that they are continuing with the plan for the moment until they receive new orders in response to the Rebel breakout, which are asked for in TLC. The destruction of a single defense station IS significant, because it breaches the perimeter, and compromises the IN formation, and their ENTIRE BATTLEPLAN. Yes, this does mean they will have to redeploy, but as Pellaeon says, they will now have to deal with flanking attacks from those forces free in the shipyards. If Pellaeon leaves the shipyards to their fate and carries on pounding the Rebel fleet, he will win an entirely Pyrrhic victory; the loss of the primary IN shipyards would not be worth the destruction of a single NR battlegroup.

Oh, poor Pelly. Maybe if he had some flowers and tissues he'd have been emotionally recovered enough to do his job?

And I suppose you regularly recieve concussions and consider them to be mere annoyances? Pfft, this is a Captain of the Imperial Navy, he should be made of sterner stuff, right? I'd like to see how cogent you can be after being sparked by a professional assassin.

I would like to know how many times one has to consistently retreat before people stop making excuses for you? Aside from his retreats in three dramatically different situations, he's also presided over the a period of shrinkage in his own quasi-Imperial regime.

Why the hell should we presume that because one man in untold billions happens to have the same name as Pellaeon, he must be the same guy? In the comic, he looks far older than he should be at that point in time, so why can this not simply be another naval Captain by the name of Pellaeon?

Concerning Endor, we have already had a long and ultimately inconclusive discussion about Pellaeons actions during the battle. It came down to whether Pellaeon's retreat order was illegal. If he deliberately overrode the orders of a superior officer, then this would be the case. However, Admiral Harrsk was out of the battle after a broadside to his command tower, and would be in his vessels infirmary at the time of the order. Teshik seemed to be completely out of contact, because he did not take command of the fleet, or even announce his presence in any way, and neither did he attempt to override the retreat order. We know IN comms were in tatters, which may explain this odd behaviour. After Harrsk, command fell to the CO of Chimaera, and now it gets tricky. When the unnamed CO is killed, where does the fleet command go? In the US Navy, it would go to the next senior officer in the fleet, probably someone like Dorja. However, there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest this is the case in the IN. Pellaeon takes command at this point, and orders a retreat. Dorja is said to have followed the order, and if he was supposed to have taken command, his reaction to Pellaeons order would have been something along the lines of 'shove it up your ass'. Consequently, there is no proof that Pellaeon acted illegally in ordering a retreat.
Did he act in the interests of the IN? Probably not, however with the loss of the battle meditation, there were factors at work that could not be empathised with in any RL setting. The loss of the flagship, the DS, the comms ship and several other vessels should not have resulted in Pellaeon losing his cool, but we cannot predict the nature of the Dark Sides effect on him, or on any other officer present. Under normal circumstances, he should have stood and fought on, but we simply cannot account for the Dark Side or its effects, and consequently I would suggest that Pellaeon cannot be accused of cowardice for a tactical retreat in the face of what would seem to be imminent destruction (from the IN personnel's perspective, due to the loss of the BM).

[Crazedwraith]

As to the Battle of Bilbringi:

IIRC At the very least Rogue Squadron and two heavily upgraded and upgunned Dreadnaughts known as Assaut Frigates broke through The lines and into the shipyards. Trashing at least one Golan Defense Platform in the process.

To regain control of the situation it seem Pelleaon would have to do two things:

• Dedicate Forces to hunting down the Rebel inside Bilbringi
  
  And
• Redeploy forces to cover the gap in Bilbringi's defenses.

Considering Pelleon's assets appear quite limited. (In addition to CHimera he has what a few VicStars?) and a Golan platform is consider to have about the same firepower and durabillity as a Star Destroyer. Pelleon would have to devoted a significant amount of his fleet to holding the shipyards. Which would drastically reduce his abillity to handle the rebel fleet thus making his position untenable.

[Lazarus]

If I'm right a loose IN OoB for Bilbringi would go something like this:

ISD's, probably including: Chimaera, Bellicose, Judicator, Inexorable, Death's Head, Nemesis, Stormhawk, Relentless.
Dreadnaughts: Total under Thrawn's command = 178, presumably less than this number.
Multiple Interdictors, probably including: Rampart, Sentinel, Constrainer
Probably some Victory class SD's, maybe including: Crusader, Adamant
Escorts: Probably dozens of Carracks, Lancers etc

The Thrawn trilogy source book states that a fleet under the Grand Admiral at this time would most often include 3 elements: a main battle line of ISD's, a close support element of Dreadnoughts and the like, and a picket line of Carracks, Lancers etc.

We know for certain that Chimaera, Nemesis and Stormhawk were present, as well as Sentinel and Constrainer. One of the ISD's is shown crippled in the graphic version, so this vessel probably isn't one of the ISD's mentioned in chronologically later sources.

[GrandAdmiralJello]

You'll have to forgive me, but this post will be greatly abbreviated. I had been working on it for an hour or so, when it got erased on accident. There's no way to recover it, I'm afraid.

Now then: the TLC sourcebook does show that Thrawn's entrapment fleet consisted of no less than twenty four Imperial Star Destroyers. Consequently, he had more Star Destroyers at Bilbringi than just his main battle line. This is very sensible, given that he's going to be trapping two entire Rebel sector groups.

Actually, as I said in one of my posts not long ago, we don't know this. In the graphic version of TLC, a crippled ISD can be seen through the bridge windows of Chimaera, having evidently lost power and heavily venting atmosphere. In Isard's Revenge, it is stated that the IN fleet leaves behind several crippled vessels, and this ISD could well be one of them.

I can concede that at least one Star Destroyer may have been heavily damaged as per the graphic novel, yes.

Actually, it does, and the point stands. Ignoring my comments about this in my last post doesn't make it go away. The cone was continuing to contract because those were the fleets orders: this does not mean that the IN still have the upper hand, it just shows that they are continuing with the plan for the moment until they receive new orders in response to the Rebel breakout, which are asked for in TLC. The destruction of a single defense station IS significant, because it breaches the perimeter, and compromises the IN formation, and their ENTIRE BATTLEPLAN. Yes, this does mean they will have to redeploy, but as Pellaeon says, they will now have to deal with flanking attacks from those forces free in the shipyards. If Pellaeon leaves the shipyards to their fate and carries on pounding the Rebel fleet, he will win an entirely Pyrrhic victory; the loss of the primary IN shipyards would not be worth the destruction of a single NR battlegroup.

I originally had an extensive reply to this particular section. I shall restate it briefly.

You refer to the loss of the shipyards as being not worth the price of destroying the Rebel battlegroup. Whether or not this is the case, abandoning the field leaves the Rebel fleet intact and still abandons the yards to the enemy.

A Pyrrhic victory is a victory with the taste of defeat--a full defeat is a defeat without even the slightest taste of victory. You may tell me which is worse. Take your time, if necessary.

The TLC sourcebook tells us on page 68 that the Rebels quickly stripped Bilbringi of its facilities and abandoned it. This presumably takes at least a month, since Lusankya spent a month there refitting. Regardless, the Rebellion has no intention to hold the yards.

In fact, TLC itself tells us that the Rebellion merely wants the CGT so it can relieve the siege on Coruscant. The CGT has already been acquired before Thrawn has been cleared, and the Rebellion is aware of this.

Let's jump to the Imperial side of things now. The original plan--and you'll note I've been over this before--was to trap and destroy the Rebels. You correctly mention that the Imperial battleplan is disrupted due to the need to split their forces--I'll add that it is even more disrupted by the death of Thrawn.

However, I've stated before that one does not stick to a preformulated battleplan when the tactical situation changes. This does not mean abandoning the field when your preconceived plan breaks apart, it means finding a new way to work. Did Admiral Piett abandon his post when the preconceived plan of holding the Rebels in place was foiled by General Calrissian's choice to engage at close-range? Of course not!

The secondary goal is to keep the shipyards intact. You're aware this is important. You should also be aware, if you reread my post, that I have not place a priority on destroying the Rebel fleet--I've placed it on holding the field.

So, let us summarize.

I. The Rebels attack to get a CGT.
II. Thrawn anticipates this and traps them, aiming to destroy them.
III. Rebels acquire CGT.
IV. Imperials are forced to split their forces.
V. Thrawn dies, rendering the trap impossible to execute. Furthermore, it means his strategic goal of besieging Coruscant cannot be accomplished. The CGT is no longer relevant.
VI. Rebels can safely exit, having gotten what the--wait! Interdictors!

At this point, Pelly prepares to retreat. Why should he do such a thing? Prudence dictates that he simply perform a tactical withdrawal with his entire force to defend the shipyards. This drives off the Rebel incursion--the formerly entrapped Rebels can either pursue him or take the advantage and withdraw. They may also continue fighting, but Pelly can have a strong chance of withdrawing because the Rebel's hearts just aren't into conquering the shipyards.

I will demonstrate why. As noted above, the Rebels didn't want to keep the yards. As noted above, the Rebels merely want to grab a CGT from the Empire. Also important to note is that the Rebels do not interfere with Pelly's retreat from the system. They aren't out to destroy his fleet. If Pelly withdraws and allows them to get what they wanted, they will not follow to destroy him. They have their own goal accomplished, by Pelly still holds the field. Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, the Rebellion believes Thrawn is still alive. They will not fight him unnecessarily when their goals have been accomplished already.

So, at the end, the Empire holds the field. Some more Rebels might even have been killed in the process--but that's not as important as holding the yards, as you've mentioned. Kindly tell me how this is worse than retreating?

Instead of doing something sensible, Pelly retreats. The damage of losing a major yard--leaving the Empire with only Ord Trasi and Yaga Minor--is compounded by Thrawn's death. Pelly notes in his diary (TLC sb) that authority once again breaks down because there's no one to follow. Of course, as we know, the 'six surviving Starfleet commanders' and the Emperor's Ruling Circle step in and take control. Instead of following their orders, he flees to the Unknown Regions to make his last stand, preferring to die at his master's (his words) domain. This is a grossly irresponsible dereliction of duty. He clearly had no interest in the Empire's wellbeing at this point, so thinking to hold the shipyards was out of the question for him.

And I suppose you regularly recieve concussions and consider them to be mere annoyances? Pfft, this is a Captain of the Imperial Navy, he should be made of sterner stuff, right? I'd like to see how cogent you can be after being sparked by a professional assassin.

That's a wonderful ad hominem there. What Pelly has to do has nothing to do with myself. Are you trying to say that one should not criticize President Hoover's mismanagement unless one has been president themselves? Please, don't be silly.

If Pelly was incapacitated, what he should have done is given it to the next person in the chain of command. DFR sb says that Dorja came before Pelly in the chain of command. That's crucial--he could have easily given command to Dorja. That's what a chain of command is for, after all. It is not merely order of precedence, that's what rank is for. It lists who is in command sequentially, especially so that things are clear in cases such as this (or Endor).

Why the hell should we presume that because one man in untold billions happens to have the same name as Pellaeon, he must be the same guy? In the comic, he looks far older than he should be at that point in time, so why can this not simply be another naval Captain by the name of Pellaeon?

To presume is to state something is true because there is no proof to the contrary. To assume is to state something is true without proof.

We are assuming, not presuming.

That said, it is a justifiable assumption. How many other people share Pelly's name, look just like him, and also possess his predilection for retreating as soon as possible?

It came down to whether Pellaeon's retreat order was illegal.

It was.

If he deliberately overrode the orders of a superior officer, then this would be the case.

No, this is not the only way an order is illegal. An order is also illegal if it's done over the heads of superior officers. Since Pelly is a mere XO, all ship's captains are higher in the chain of command. He needn't walk over an admiral or a grand admiral--any captain will do.

Teshik seemed to be completely out of contact, because he did not take command of the fleet, or even announce his presence in any way, and neither did he attempt to override the retreat order.

Ah, see, now here is a presumption! It's also an argument from ignorance, come to think of it.

The Insider issue specifically says that Teshik ignored the retreat order. It does not say that he was ignorant of the order. To ignore something requires an awareness of what one is ignoring.

We know IN comms were in tatters, which may explain this odd behaviour.

The Imperial force had difficulty coordinating its forces because it had lost the realtime communications that usually linked up ships, yes. Voice communications must have still been operating if Pelly was capable of issuing his order and Teshik was capable of ignoring it.

After Harrsk, command fell to the CO of Chimaera, and now it gets tricky. When the unnamed CO is killed, where does the fleet command go? In the US Navy, it would go to the next senior officer in the fleet, probably someone like Dorja. However, there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest this is the case in the IN. Pellaeon takes command at this point, and orders a retreat. Dorja is said to have followed the order, and if he was supposed to have taken command, his reaction to Pellaeons order would have been something along the lines of 'shove it up your ass'. Consequently, there is no proof that Pellaeon acted illegally in ordering a retreat.

Again, you're making an argument from ignorance. We are aware that Dorja felt that Pelly should not have given the order and that he should have been in charge because he was higher up in the chain of command. This indicates that normal naval procedures are followed, rather than some bizarre notion that the personnel on a ship enjoy higher authority than those on another.

You're employing backwards logic here--you're working from the conclusion that Pelly's order was justified and then making reasons for it rather than looking at the evidence and judging his order based on that. That really is begging the question.

[montypython]

With Battletech scenarios, gamers often played out battles and such described in the various novels to see whether they corresponded to realistically possible outcomes, if that could be done with the Battle of Bilbringi, it could help lay out all of the elements that occurred more clearly.

[Trytostaydead]

With Battletech scenarios, gamers often played out battles and such described in the various novels to see whether they corresponded to realistically possible outcomes, if that could be done with the Battle of Bilbringi, it could help lay out all of the elements that occurred more clearly.

It's been a while since I read the books, but do they describe the number of ships, stations, batteries from the shipyard, etc that took part in Bilbringi?

[Lazarus]

You refer to the loss of the shipyards as being not worth the price of destroying the Rebel battlegroup. Whether or not this is the case, abandoning the field leaves the Rebel fleet intact and still abandons the yards to the enemy.

Yes, however it also leaves the Empire's elite frontline battlegroup intact. Had Pellaeon fought on from his position of weakness, he may well have lost his fleet as well as the yards. Its a question of choice, and Pellaeon chose to save his fleet and fight another day, perhaps when the supreme commander of the Empire hadn't just been assasinated meters from him. And also, at this point Byss is still the Empire's largest shipyards, although how many in the Empire know this is debatable.

On the other hand, I see where you're coming from. I don't believe Pellaeon was demonstrating cowardice or incompetence in his actions, but perhaps if he had redeployed to protect the yard he could have prevented them falling into the hands of the Rebels. I think this would have been very costly, both in terms of damage to the yards and to the fleet, and with Thrawn dead who knows in whose hands Bilbringi would have ended up.

That said, it is a justifiable assumption. How many other people share Pelly's name, look just like him, and also possess his predilection for retreating as soon as possible?

1. Share the name Pellaeon: probably a number in the hundreds of thousands, maybe millions.
2. Look just like him: What, old with grey hair and a beard? The description of Pellaeon in the novels is vague enough to easily describe millions of people in the galaxy.
3. Bullshit. Utter Bullshit. Let's see, this idea is based on 3 battles: the first is this very instance, and there is no proof that this is even the same person. The second is Endor, and there were special circumstances there than we CANNOT empathise with because, funnily enough, the Dark Side doesn't exist in the real world, so we have no idea what effect it would have on someone's judgement. The third is Bilbringi, and I don't believe that Pellaeon's choice to retreat was unforgivable given the cicumstances; perhaps he could have held the field, perhaps not, but retreating there certainly wasn't some sort of act of cowardice. There are entire campaigns full of instances where Pellaeon leads attacks, and yet focus continues on these few instances where Pellaeon retreated. He isn't some wanked out uber-jedi or some poorly written evil genius, he's a steadfast captain of the Imperial Navy, and judging him on the level of superheroes is frankly ridiculous.

It came down to whether Pellaeon's retreat order was illegal.

It was.

Gee, nice load of proof there huh? Show me some evidence that, in the Imperial Navy, when the line captain in command of a fleet is killed, command transfers to a captain of another vessel, and not the next senior officer on the flagship. Until you do, my point stands, because there is nothing to say that the IN follows US Navy regulations in this matter. The burden of proof lies on you to prove that his actions WERE illegal, because in-universe no officer challenged the order, which certainly would not have happened were it illegal. Even if another officer agreed, if they were supposed to have taken command they would have re-issued it in order to make it valid.

The Insider issue specifically says that Teshik ignored the retreat order. It does not say that he was ignorant of the order. To ignore something requires an awareness of what one is ignoring.

So he ignored the retreat order, and in no way attempted to countermand it or assert his command? Well, since Pellaeon didn't know that Teshik was even present, he can't be court martialled for overiding an officer who, at the time, was presumed dead aboard the DS2.

This indicates that normal naval procedures are followed, rather than some bizarre notion that the personnel on a ship enjoy higher authority than those on another.

Dorja is chafing at being under the command of a junior officer. Oh, that must therefore mean said command is illegal! He feels he should be in command, the same way any officer who thinks his superordinate is incompetent will feel. This doesn't mean that Pellaeon's actions were illegal.

You're employing backwards logic here--you're working from the conclusion that Pelly's order was justified and then making reasons for it rather than looking at the evidence and judging his order based on that.

And you have already stated your hate of Pellaeon, and are consequently working from the view that he's a gutless surrender monkey, so quit with the holier than thou bullshit.

[GrandAdmiralJello]

Yes, however it also leaves the Empire's elite frontline battlegroup intact. Had Pellaeon fought on from his position of weakness, he may well have lost his fleet as well as the yards. Its a question of choice, and Pellaeon chose to save his fleet and fight another day, perhaps when the supreme commander of the Empire hadn't just been assasinated meters from him. And also, at this point Byss is still the Empire's largest shipyards, although how many in the Empire know this is debatable.

If that was his goal. Subsequent to Bilbringi, Pelly can be best described as an Emo blog user. In fact, speaking of personal journals, why not take a gander at his personal journal at the end of the TLC sourcebook?

Like I said, he had no intention of preserving his fleet to fight another day. He wished to die at the edge of space near his master's territory. He was a wreck that had no will to fight, and were it not for the return of the Emperor, he would have gone through with his plan. He hadn't a thought for preserving the Empire.

As for Merson, I'm sorry if you thought I was making an -or- statement but I very clearly used the word and. In other words, you have to do a linear combination of the odds of all three--and you'll find that once all the fractions have been multiplied together, the odds are much, much, lower.

Millions of Pellaeons? Who knows. Millions of old people? Easily. But how many old Pellaeons, who retreat, are in the Navy? How many of them served concurrently to him? How many of them fought in the Clone Wars, as he is known to do! You're proposing an astonishingly absurd set of coincidences and you're claiming that we have to look at the entire population first? Hardly! Look at the conditionals.

Show me some evidence that, in the Imperial Navy, when the line captain in command of a fleet is killed, command transfers to a captain of another vessel, and not the next senior officer on the flagship. Until you do, my point stands, because there is nothing to say that the IN follows US Navy regulations in this matter. The burden of proof lies on you to prove that his actions WERE illegal, because in-universe no officer challenged the order, which certainly would not have happened were it illegal. Even if another officer agreed, if they were supposed to have taken command they would have re-issued it in order to make it valid.

So, let's go through this. Orders cannot possibly be illegal because they're not challenged?

Very well. I'll go download a movie now, and since no one's going to stop me, it mustn't be illegal. If anyone asks, I'll say that Lazarus said it was fine.

You're still making an appeal to ignorance, and violating the principle of parsimony while you're at it. Since you also don't know how seniority works in the Imperial Navy and since you also cannot offer proof either way, you are still making an unproven claim that his order wasn't illegal. It's not a refutation because you don't have grounds for it, it's a counterclaim. Further, you're suggesting a bizarre system whereas a ship that is not even a flagship (can we see any admirals hoisting their flags on Chimæra? She's just a Comms ship!) somehow bestows special authority on its officers. That's an incredibly convoluted situation and defeats the purpose of rank, seniority, and a chain of command--all of which are designed specifically to avoid ambiguity.

So if you're going to ask me for evidence, I can very easily turn right back and ask you for the same. Since you also cannot provide evidence (unless you continue to jump about claiming it was perfectly legal just because it happened) that leaves us looking at each of our claims and judging which is simpler and yet still logical under the principle of parsimony.

I think the answer to that is rather self-evident.

So he ignored the retreat order, and in no way attempted to countermand it or assert his command? Well, since Pellaeon didn't know that Teshik was even present, he can't be court martialled for overiding an officer who, at the time, was presumed dead aboard the DS2.

No, all we know was that he ignored it. He could have done nothing and just stayed behind in a blaze of heroics, or he could have tried to reassert control to no avail. Either would fit, so we've no way to say anything about it.

He did, still, override everyone else. It isn't his call to issue a retreat order.

Dorja is chafing at being under the command of a junior officer. Oh, that must therefore mean said command is illegal! He feels he should be in command, the same way any officer who thinks his superordinate is incompetent will feel. This doesn't mean that Pellaeon's actions were illegal.

Erm, what? Superordinate? Surely you mean superior?

Reread your first sentence, though. Junior officer. Junior is a comparative, you know. If Pelly is Dorja's junior, then Dorja is his superior. Be careful.

And you have already stated your hate of Pellaeon, and are consequently working from the view that he's a gutless surrender monkey, so quit with the holier than thou bullshit.

Ah, I see. I also hate Marshal Bernadotte. I suppose that Bernadotte mustn't have sold out at all because I hate him, yes? It couldn't possibly be that I hate him because he's a traitor, right? Just as I couldn't possibly hate Pelly because he's a coward? No, it must be I have some irrational hatred of him and seek to defame his name in any way possible. You're absolutely right.

Come on.

[Lazarus]

If that was his goal. Subsequent to Bilbringi, Pelly can be best described as an Emo blog user. In fact, speaking of personal journals, why not take a gander at his personal journal at the end of the TLC sourcebook?

I don't have it, so I can't, depending on its length if you could post it here that'd be great.

Further, you're suggesting a bizarre system whereas a ship that is not even a flagship (can we see any admirals hoisting their flags on Chimæra? She's just a Comms ship!) somehow bestows special authority on its officers. That's an incredibly convoluted situation and defeats the purpose of rank, seniority, and a chain of command--all of which are designed specifically to avoid ambiguity.

Executor was destroyed, at which point the flag transfered to Harrsk's vessel. When this was damaged and the command section of the ISD crippled, the flag transfered to Chimaera. Look carefully. When Piett is killed, command cannot pass to his XO because Executor is destroyed. When Harrsk is put out of action, command cannot pass to his XO because his vessel is no longer fit for flagship duty. When Pellaeon's CO is killed, the command CAN pass to Pellaeon because Chimaera is still fully operational, and Pellaeon himself is unharmed. I am aware of no other similar series of events in the SW universe that would disprove the idea that in the IN command of a fleet group falls to the XO of the flagship when the CO is in some way incapacitated. There is no IN regulation handbook in existence, so this cannot be proved one way or the other, but I believe that this is a more logical series of events:

Executor is destroyed, flag passes to Harrsk's ship, command passes from Piett (deceased) to his XO (deceased) to Harrsk.

Harrsk's ship is damaged and can no longer retain flagship status. Flag is transferred to Chimaera. Command passes from Harrsk (incapacitated) to his XO (either similarly incapacitated or unable to command due to the vessels damage) to Chimaera's CO.

Chimaera's CO is killed. Flag stays on Chimaera because it retains command capability. Command passes from Chimaera's CO (deceased) to his XO, Pellaeon.

Pellaeon, under the disastrous effects of the Battle Meditation, orders a withdrawal to Annaj, perhaps with an eye to a counterattack once the fleet has been organised. All IN vessels save for the Eleemosynary follow Pellaeon's orders and withdraw. Why Eleemosynary did not do so is unknown, but it is reasonable to assume it is due to the same reason that Teshik did not take command of the fleet, or even make his presence known in any way, ie some sort of comms disruption or damage. Concerning the rest of the vessels, at this point they were under the command of the flagship Chimaera and her commanding officer, Captain Pellaeon, and they followed his orders. Dorja may not have liked it, but he did follow the order, as did every other officer present (save Teshik), which I believe adds considerable weight to the argument that Pellaeons actions were in line with IN regulations.

Thats my idea. Yours involves Teshik mysteriously being in contact but not taking command, and the entire IN fleet inexplicably following the orders of an officer not in a command position. If Pellaeon was not supposed to be in command, his orders would not have been followed. I suggest therefore, that this idea is more logical, because it does not involve a totally unexplainable disregard for naval procedure in a battle situation by EVERY SINGLE COMMAND OFFICER IN THE FLEET. SIMULTANEOUSLY.

No, all we know was that he ignored it. He could have done nothing and just stayed behind in a blaze of heroics, or he could have tried to reassert control to no avail. Either would fit, so we've no way to say anything about it.

We can't explain why Teshik didn't take command, but it is reasonable to suggest that if he had tried to assert command, his orders would have been followed over Pellaeon's, even if Pellaeon mistakenly believed he was in command. Perhaps his ship had been damaged in such a way as he could recieve orders but not send them, or maybe he simply wished to go it alone. The second two don't involve out-of-character behaviour for Dorja and the other IN officers, so should therefore be more logical.

He did, still, override everyone else. It isn't his call to issue a retreat order.

So what happens after Harrsk goes out fo the fight then? They sit around because no one can take command (assuming my idea about CO=>XO is correct)? As the next in line for command, without knowledge of Teshik, Pellaeon takes command. No one challenges him. This is a reasonable sequence of events. It does not involve out of character behaviour by around 40 IN command officers who would have to mysteriously have the same bout of disregard for naval procedure in order to follow Pellaeon if he wasn't in command.

Erm, what? Superordinate? Surely you mean superior?

Superordinate, as in the opposite to subordinate.

Reread your first sentence, though. Junior officer. Junior is a comparative, you know. If Pelly is Dorja's junior, then Dorja is his superior. Be careful.

Junior in captaincy, but not in station. Dorja followed Pellaeon's orders as he would a superiors, with the slight annoyance you'd expect by someone taking orders from an officer of rank typically below his own. Yes, I agree, this would not happen in a RL navy. But this isn't a real life navy, its the Imperial Starfleet, and the logical sequence of events as I have outlined above suggest that they do things a little differently.

Ah, I see. I also hate Marshal Bernadotte. I suppose that Bernadotte mustn't have sold out at all because I hate him, yes? It couldn't possibly be that I hate him because he's a traitor, right? Just as I couldn't possibly hate Pelly because he's a coward? No, it must be I have some irrational hatred of him and seek to defame his name in any way possible. You're absolutely right.

You're working from the conclusion that Pellaeon is guilty of illegally assuming command of the Endor fleet, I'm working from the conclusion that he isn't. We're both biased.

[GrandAdmiralJello]

Since we've repeated our same arguments multiple times within each set of quotes, I'll start this post by not quoting you. Instead, I'll condense everything together.

Now, then--the crux of your argument is that since it happened and since people listened to the order, it must mean that the order was legal. This must then mean that the chain of command is not dependant on the rank of the officer, but which ship he is assigned to. However, the ISB does say that the captain of a ship--no matter how insignificant--is superior to an executive officer on any larger ship. That's crucial, and it was the missing bit of evidence I needed to cement my point.

A ship's captain would be a post captain and therefore be on the list of seniority. Captain Pelly was not a ship's captain and therefore not a post captain and therefore not on the seniority list. Thanks to the ISB, we know that a post captain does outrank one who is not. This makes sense.

Endor was a rout. It was an unmitigated disaster. If the retreat order is issued, there's not going to be a name attached to it. All the fleet knows is that the communications ship issued a retreat order. For all they know, it could have come from Teshik. During the rout, no one would know who it came from.

That's why Harrsk followed it. And that's why he exploded at Annaj after finding out just who had ordered the retreat.

That covers all the bases. What do you have to say?

[CaptainChewbacca]

Wasn't the communications ship destroyed, which allowed the rebels to detect the shield was still up?

[Noble Ire]

Wasn't the communications ship destroyed, which allowed the rebels to detect the shield was still up?

That seems rather unlikely, considering the fact that the shield was detected withing only a minute or so of the arrival of Ackbar's fleet, before the TIE screen had even engaged them. Additionally, isn't the communications ship mentioned or seen in the thick of the battle, much later on?