Bad design in Star Wars

[Thanas]

Mon Calamari did have a planetary shield.

It didn't have one operational for the World Devastator attack although I understand that there was one for the intial Imperial invasion but it was sabotaged by the Quarren. If they did have one would a couple of sector fleets be enough? If it was comparable to Alderaans then it could soak up a huge fleet for months of constant bombardment which the Empire is unlikely to be able to spare.

So? In case you did not realize, that means that the MonCal would have had to have an even larger fleet to not get attacked by the Empire.

did rate at least 60 ISDs as occupation forces

Occupation forces? I understood it that the Hapan Queen handed over a lot of rogue Jedi in order to get the Empire to ignore them. The ISDs they had were captured from the warlords that tried to muscle in on their territory in the post endor apocalypse of the warlord period.

Hmm. Do you have a direct quote?

As they were able to keep the whole empire at bay

I thought Moncal was enslaved by the Empire (Hence Ackbar being Tarkins slave) and that the reason their fleet was with the rebels was because they ran away rather than be seized by the Empire when the planet fell.

But they rebelled in 1 BBY, driving of the Empire. The new essential atlas also states that Mon Cal was the cornerstone of the whole Rebellion. Thus, they would have been the primary target of Imperial forces - but the Imps could never conquer them again. I guess this speaks volumes to the strength of the Mon Cal fleet.

[Darth Tanner]

Hmm. Do you have a direct quote?

Sorry no its been a very long time since I read the Courtship of princess Leia, but wookie has this to say

It is believed that the Hapans were left to their own devices by the Galactic Empire, as no records of any major confrontations between the two parties exist as of yet. However, there were some skirmishes near the border that resulted in the Hapans capturing some Imperial Star Destroyers. Some of these Star Destroyers would be later presented as a gift to Leia Organa and used by the New Republic.

So I was wrong about them just getting STDs from the warlords.

I guess this speaks volumes to the strength of the Mon Cal fleet.

Or the chaos the Empire was in post Yavin when open rebellion suddenly becomes an attractive prospect with such a huge slice of Imperial fire-power being vaporised.

I'm not arguing that the Moncals didn't have significant fleet assets but it strikes me as weird to view them as being able to challenge the Empire in a stand up battle when their only one planet. The vast majority of that fleet would have been at Endor after all and there certainly wasn't thousands of heavy cruisers.

[Thanas]

Or the chaos the Empire was in post Yavin when open rebellion suddenly becomes an attractive prospect with such a huge slice of Imperial fire-power being vaporised.

Not really, considering that they openly revolted in 1 BBY.

I'm not arguing that the Moncals didn't have significant fleet assets but it strikes me as weird to view them as being able to challenge the Empire in a stand up battle when their only one planet.

Kuat is only one planet as well, but it still is a major shipyard. And the MonCals were not just a single planet, they were an extremely industrialized sector.

The vast majority of that fleet would have been at Endor after all and there certainly wasn't thousands of heavy cruisers.

Why would the vast majority of that fleet be at Endor? Not all MonCals became members of the rebel alliance. And it would be very bad to not protect the shipyards at all - you win at endor, but loose your entire ship production capability - that is a very bad outcome.

[Captain Seafort]

Why would the vast majority of that fleet be at Endor?

Because the RotJ novel describes the force mustering prior to Endor as "every rebel in the galaxy".

[Thanas]

Why would the vast majority of that fleet be at Endor?

Because the RotJ novel describes the force mustering prior to Endor as "every rebel in the galaxy".

That is quite ambigous - it might mean "every member of the Rebel alliance" just as easily. In any case, Mon Cal being defended by 3 Star Cruisers is purely unrealistic. In that case Death Squadron alone could have destroyed the shipyards on their own.

[PainRack]

The problem at that point was that the Rebels didn't have enough capital ships as it was, or maybe none at all (the Mon Cal and their fleet hadn't yet joined the cause, if I recall correctly). And it was pretty clear to me that the Rebel starfighter assault on the Death Star was a desperate, last-moment measure - to utilize the single weakness they found in the behemoth hoping that universe might spare them.

I think we need to seperate this into two seperate issues.
1. The Lucrehulk assault. The initial attack on the unfinished death star with mere starfighters had to be sucidal. Even if Starfighters had been equipped with gigaton torpedoes, it would had required a sustained bombardment against Imperial resistance to take out the Death Star. Why wasn't any capital ships used? As it was, we seen the Rebel fleet in the Marvel Comics and their use to run the Yavin Blockade set up by Tagge. Even an attack on unsupported infrastructure and the like would had been better supported by a capital ship assault rather than snubfighters.

2. The second starfighter assault being a desperate, last moment measure is true. However, recall that even with this desperate measure, a good number of Rebel political and military leaders remained behind on Yavin IV, including remmants of the Alderaanian delegation who were later used to garner population support such as Princess Leia. There are other ways in which we can rationalise the "gather leaders to Yavin" bit and why they stayed behind, especially since Mon Mothma wasn't there, but still.........

And recall that with prior experience, 500 X-wings were beaten off by the Empire defences. Yet, the Rebel military leadership now expects a much smaller force to be successful within a time critical limit.

[Serafina]

This has been pointed out before:

They simply did not have another choice.

So, there are two options:
-Sit there and let the empire wipe out nearly all your troops and most of your leadership.
-Try the snubfighter attack. If it succeeds - win. If not, you have the same as with option 1.

Which option do you take?

[Drooling Iguana]

The thing that always bugged me about ANH was that they took the Falcon directly to the Rebel base despite the fact that Leia knew it was being tracked. You'd think she'd have Han detour to one of the less important outposts, pay him, and then get a new ship to go the rest of the way to Yavin.

[The Original Nex]

The thing that always bugged me about ANH was that they took the Falcon directly to the Rebel base despite the fact that Leia knew it was being tracked. You'd think she'd have Han detour to one of the less important outposts, pay him, and then get a new ship to go the rest of the way to Yavin.

Idealist that she is, and having just seen the destruction of her homeworld, I would imagine she was concerned about subjecting whatever stopover planet they chose to destruction.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

Idealist that she is, and having just seen the destruction of her homeworld, I would imagine she was concerned about subjecting whatever stopover planet they chose to destruction.

In addition, wasn't there somewhat of an element of a race against time going on? The rebels stole the plans primarily to try to find some sort of weakness they could exploit, according to Leia's line at the end of the escape, and the longer the Empire knows that the plans are at large, the more time they have to find the weakness themselves or, if they already know about it, patch it up.

[The Romulan Republic]

Mon Calamari did have a planetary shield. However, one would think the empire would have spared at least a few sector groups to use against them. Remember that the Hapans, a minor power that was not known for having much combat experience, did rate at least 60 ISDs as occupation forces (and those were only the ones the Hapans captured when the Empire withdrew).

Source?

As the MonCal are way more important than the Hapans, I would expect the empire to have a magnitude of more forces. And while the planet is defended by a shield, the shipyards demonstrably are not, so the MonCal would have needed a large fleet to defend them - as well as the rest of their territory.

So no, a fleet of hundreds of Cruisers or even in the small thousands does not seem excessive to me. Especially considering that it is one of the big five/six shipyard worlds in the galaxy.

Unfortunately, I do not know of any evidence (beyond the simple fact of their survival) for the Mon Cals having a fleet like that. Considering that they had only thrown off their Imperial masters about four to five years before Endor, and were ultimately only in control of a sector or so at most (did the entire Calimari sector rebel or just the one world at first?), it seems implausible that they could have mustered a fleet of thousands of heavy cruisers. Also, consider the Battle of Endor. If they had had a thousand heavy cruisers, don't you think they'd have spared more than two or three for the most important attack in the Rebellion's history? Keep in mind that if the DS2 had been finished and then sent against them, their was probably no fleet or planetary shield in the Galaxy that could have saved the Mon Calimari.

Basically, it boils down to five main points:


1. There is no canon evidence (to the best of my knowledge )for a Calimari fleet that size. If you can provide a quote to the contrary, I'll gladly concede this point.

2. Such numbers are at odds with the (admittedly often minimalist) numbers that have typically been given for fleets in the Star Wars Galaxy.

3. The Mon Cals had just thrown off Imperial occupation four or five years prior and were ultimately just one world, at most one sector. Considering also that a typical sector fleet of the Empire seems to be around two dozen star destroyers and perhaps a few heavier ships (or so I've heard, I'm afraid I don't have a source at present), it is hard to imagine the Mon Cals building that many ships so quickly.

4. The Mon Cals would have been utter morons to have a fleet of a thousand Home Ones and only have spared two or three for Endor (where victory was practically essential to the Rebellion's survival). I would suggest that this is probably the strongest argument against the Mon Cals having such a fleet. Imagine the following conversation:


Mon Cal officer: "Sir, we just got a report from Endor. Our entire fleet was ambushed and massacred by thirty Star Destroyers."

Mon Cal leader: "Damn, if only we'd spared another .3% of our fleet for the attack."


5. The Empire could doubtlessly have crushed the Mon Cals in a conventional assault, but it was not nessissarily in their interests to do so right away. Consider:

Option 1. Attack Mon Calimari with a conventional fleet. You'll have to send perhaps several hundred ships, at a time when the Empire's fleets are likely spread very thin patrolling an entire galaxy. You'll win, but it might cost you many ships, and then you'll be faced with a potentially lengthy siege of the planetary shield (I'm sure their are lots of officers around old enough to remember the Outer Rim Sieges of the Clone Wars). Every day that Mon Calimari holds out, it will be a drain on your resources and a symbol of defiance against the Empire.

Option 2. Wait for the Death Star 2. Send it in, laugh as the Mon Calimari suicide their fleet trying to attack it, and then blow up the planet, shield and all, with one shot.

Which do you think, from the Empire's point of view, was probably the better option?

[Simon_Jester]

Oh, ok - sorry for overreading your concession.

Since I never disagreed with the proposition that thirty fighters are less intimidating than five hundred, I'm not sure "concession" is the right word, but what the hell, I can work with it.

To reiterate, this would likely not be a decisive blow to the Death Star program, but it could still cause serious time and cost overruns, which would buy the Rebellion time to act in other ways against the program directly or indirectly.

It certainly would. But what good would it be?

If the empire notices that the site has been compromised AND can be sucessfully attacked, then they are certainly going to reinforce it.
Which, in turn, makes any "real" attack even more difficult.

The main weapon of the Death Star is not its superlaser - it's sheer size.
Even if you somehow disable the superlaser, take out its hyperdrive and half its weapons - it's still an armored giant battlemoon which can supply a whole sector fleet.

The point is?
It is very, very hard to destroy the Death Star by conventional means. you could propably raze it with a fleet big enough - but did the Rebellion have such an fleet?
I doubt that even the whole MonCal fleet could beat DS1 even without the Superlaser or any reinforcements.

Therefore, an attack on its building site has very, very few chances to actually suceed.

You're still thinking in all-or-nothing terms: either the attack grants absolute victory, or it is pointless. What I'm trying to get at is that this is the wrong model.

Imagine the Rebels manage to delay Death Star construction by an indefinite period on the order of 25 to 50% of the original construction time. I'm not sure how long the working Death Star took to build, but that's probably several months: the DS-II was constructed faster, but it was also the Emperor's pet project to an extent that the DS-I was not, so it's hard to say whether the first one got the same rush priority on resources and labor as the second.

What can the Rebels do with a delay of several months? Most conspicuously, they can not lose the war for several more months. Many things could happen in those months.

Maybe the Rebels will be able to whistle up a large enough fleet to actually destroy the station, by reducing it to scrap iron if not by vaporizing it outright. Maybe they'll find a way to smuggle an extremely large bomb on board. Maybe the Emperor will decree that the station be built at a more secure location (like a major shipyard); since they can't move the Death Star hull with the hyperdrive gone, they'll have to start over from scratch, causing even further delays. Maybe the Emperor will decree that the whole project is a stupid waste of time and money because it's too vulnerable to sabotage and raids. Maybe the Senate will catch* wind of the project and cancel it because they don't like the idea of planets being blown up. Maybe the Emperor will fall over dead, or someone will get lucky and manage to assassinate him.

Specifics don't really matter here. The point is that shit happens in wartime, and the longer you drag the war out, the greater the chance that shit will happen to the other side. As long as the Empire lacks the firepower to destroy entire fortified planets and terrorize the whole galaxy into unconditional surrender, time is on the Rebels' side. Throughout history, the goal of most guerilla movements has been to simply stay alive and hang on to some shred of operational effectiveness, because they're waiting for the right moment to strike at a more powerful enemy. Anything that buys more time for that moment to come helps the guerillas greatly.

*Remember, this was before the Senate was disbanded, and quite a few Rebels would be overly optimistic about the Senate's ability to interfere with the Emperor's actions.
_______

If we buy Tarkin's assessment that the Death Star's successful operations will spell a quick end to the Rebellion, it makes perfect sense for the Rebels to do anything they can think of to delay completion of the station and disrupt construction, in hopes that they'll find a way to put an end to the project permanently or find a way to win the war by other means. Even if Tarkin is wrong, the Death Star is still a very powerful weapon in Imperial hands and it still makes sense for the Rebels to sacrifice a lot of time and effort trying to stop it from being deployed.

[Serafina]

Ok - i take back the "concession" term.
___________________________________________
You are right - delaying the Death Star IS important for the rebels.

But my point is: Since they can not deal a fatal blow to the project, delaying it is ultimately futile.

Why?
Well, think about it: If the Death Star is so important (which it certainly was), then it is important to the Empire, too.
Now, what happens if the Rebels manage to delay the project several times?
The protection will be increased.

Since the Empire has WAY more resources than the Rebellion (especially at this point, a point will be reached where the Rebellion can no longer deal any damage to the project.

The first few attacks/delays might be succesfull (they were not), but ulitmately, they are futile.

Throughout history, the goal of most guerilla movements has been to simply stay alive and hang on to some shred of operational effectiveness, because they're waiting for the right moment to strike at a more powerful enemy. Anything that buys more time for that moment to come helps the guerillas greatly.

You are certainly correct here.
However, the greatest asset of any guerillia movement is simply not being detected. If the enemy knows where you are, you are screwed.

Now, there will be a "Phase 2" where you need to engage in open operations, but are not yet strong enough to compete if the enemy brings its full strength.

The attack on the Death Star IS such a point.

If we replace the "Attack the Death Star"-szenario with, say, "Kill Palpatine" - then a "victory" can be achieved - if he is dead, he is dead (ok, he had clones, but they did not know about that).
But with the Death Star, this is not possible.
They had no way to destroy the project, and while delaying it might have made sense, it ALSO compromised the "stay hidden" objective.
Because such an attack can not be done in a guerillia fashion.
Hence, they would have to get into "Phase 2" for these delays - which would be a victory for the Empire from a strategic point of view, because it would allow it to strike against the Rebels - which is more or less impossible in "Phase 1"

This is most likely the reason why the Rebels did NOT attemp another attack on the Death Star - such an attack would have done nothing, except exposing them to the Empire, compromising the "stay alive" strategic goal.

[Thanas]

Mon Calamari did have a planetary shield. However, one would think the empire would have spared at least a few sector groups to use against them. Remember that the Hapans, a minor power that was not known for having much combat experience, did rate at least 60 ISDs as occupation forces (and those were only the ones the Hapans captured when the Empire withdrew).

Source?

About what? The Mon Cal planetary shield or the Hapans?

Unfortunately, I do not know of any evidence (beyond the simple fact of their survival) for the Mon Cals having a fleet like that. Considering that they had only thrown off their Imperial masters about four to five years before Endor, and were ultimately only in control of a sector or so at most (did the entire Calimari sector rebel or just the one world at first?), it seems implausible that they could have mustered a fleet of thousands of heavy cruisers. Also, consider the Battle of Endor. If they had had a thousand heavy cruisers, don't you think they'd have spared more than two or three for the most important attack in the Rebellion's history? Keep in mind that if the DS2 had been finished and then sent against them, their was probably no fleet or planetary shield in the Galaxy that could have saved the Mon Calimari.

The alternative being that the empire could not spare 12 Star Destroyers to take down the MonCal shipyards, you do realize that?

And as far as I know, the MonCal's having such a large fleet is due to them having sent away their fleet after the planetary shield was breached. At least that is what I think was the general theory floating around.

Basically, it boils down to five main points:

1. There is no canon evidence (to the best of my knowledge )for a Calimari fleet that size. If you can provide a quote to the contrary, I'll gladly concede this point.

There is none except for the argument that the MonCal would have needed a strong enough force to defend itself against Death Squadron at least. As the Excecutor alone is worth several squadrons of ISD, the MonCal must have had a strong enough force to defeat Death Squadron at least.

2. Such numbers are at odds with the (admittedly often minimalist) numbers that have typically been given for fleets in the Star Wars Galaxy.

That is no argument when considering In universe explanations.

3. The Mon Cals had just thrown off Imperial occupation four or five years prior and were ultimately just one world, at most one sector. Considering also that a typical sector fleet of the Empire seems to be around two dozen star destroyers and perhaps a few heavier ships (or so I've heard, I'm afraid I don't have a source at present), it is hard to imagine the Mon Cals building that many ships so quickly.

Why? If they have an existing force to rely on already, building more should be relatively trivial with the huge MonCal shipyards.

4. The Mon Cals would have been utter morons to have a fleet of a thousand Home Ones

Stop right there. Nowhere is the Home One being described as a typical MonCal cruiser.

and only have spared two or three for Endor (where victory was practically essential to the Rebellion's survival). I would suggest that this is probably the strongest argument against the Mon Cals having such a fleet. Imagine the following conversation:

Mon Cal officer: "Sir, we just got a report from Endor. Our entire fleet was ambushed and massacred by thirty Star Destroyers."

Mon Cal leader: "Damn, if only we'd spared another .3% of our fleet for the attack."

Keep in mind that not all MonCal joined the Rebeliion. In fact, the essential atlas quite clearly states that the strategy of the MonCal was contrary to that of the Rebellion.

5. The Empire could doubtlessly have crushed the Mon Cals in a conventional assault, but it was not nessissarily in their interests to do so right away. Consider:

Option 1. Attack Mon Calimari with a conventional fleet. You'll have to send perhaps several hundred ships, at a time when the Empire's fleets are likely spread very thin patrolling an entire galaxy. You'll win, but it might cost you many ships, and then you'll be faced with a potentially lengthy siege of the planetary shield (I'm sure their are lots of officers around old enough to remember the Outer Rim Sieges of the Clone Wars). Every day that Mon Calimari holds out, it will be a drain on your resources and a symbol of defiance against the Empire.

Moot point, as the shipyards are not protected by planetary shields and there is no evidence of the MonCal shield ever being operational again after having been destroyed by the Imps in the first battle of Dac. What stops them from blasting the shipyards? You do not need several hundred ships for that, you just need a strong enough force to defeat the MonCal fleet.

Unless...the Mon Cal have a strong enough fleet that a few sector groups would not suffice.

Option 2. Wait for the Death Star 2. Send it in, laugh as the Mon Calimari suicide their fleet trying to attack it, and then blow up the planet, shield and all, with one shot.

Which do you think, from the Empire's point of view, was probably the better option?

Option 3. Send in a raiding force of 1 SD and 5 ISDs against the non-shielded shipyards and a non-shielded planet, blast the MonCal and laugh your ass off at a planet that started a rebeliion with no hopes of keeping the Imperial fleet at bay. What, you do not think the Death Squadron could have been spared for a few days?

[The Romulan Republic]

About what? The Mon Cal planetary shield or the Hapans?

The Hapans.

The alternative being that the empire could not spare 12 Star Destroyers to take down the MonCal shipyards, you do realize that?

If the Mon Calimari had a couple of Sector fleets (which is reasonably plausible), then it would have been more like fifty or a hundred Star Destroyers just to roughly match their fleet. But yes, I see your point.

Frankly, Star Wars continuity is so fucked that their are probably a lot of situations like this, where one has to choose the least implausible of various implausible rationalizations (or just throw the official canon out the window).

And as far as I know, the MonCal's having such a large fleet is due to them having sent away their fleet after the planetary shield was breached. At least that is what I think was the general theory floating around.

I'm trying to understand the sequence of events here. The Mon Cals sent their fleet away when the Empire initially took over (is their any solid evidence for this or is it just guesswork)? Then later the Mon Calimari overthrew the Imperial occupation and the fleet came back? And this happened around 1 BBY?

If that is the case, where was that huge Mon Calimari fleet roaming around before 1 BBY? Why don't we see any signs of it in the Rebellion before then?

There is none except for the argument that the MonCal would have needed a strong enough force to defend itself against Death Squadron at least. As the Excecutor alone is worth several squadrons of ISD, the MonCal must have had a strong enough force to defeat Death Squadron at least.

I thought the Executor was held to be worth about 20 ISDS (unless that number has been overruled by something)? Add the other five ISDs, and you have about a Sector fleet's worth. And obviously the Mon Cal detachment at Endor was powerful enough to challenge Death Squadron.

That is no argument when considering In universe explanations.

Why exactly not? Those numbers are canon (weather they should be or not), and thus form part of the context one must consider when determining a plausible fleet strength for the Mon Cals.

Unless of course you wish to argue in support of disregarding large chunks of the EU altogether. If you do, I'm sure you'll find considerable sympathy.

Why? If they have an existing force to rely on already, building more should be relatively trivial with the huge MonCal shipyards.

Presumes they have a sizable existing force. Also, presumes they recovered the shipyards relatively intact when they booted the Empire out. Possible, but it presumes a lot.

Stop right there. Nowhere is the Home One being described as a typical MonCal cruiser.

Home One is a Mon Cal Heavy Cruiser. Which you are suggesting they might have hundreds or thousands of. Now, I'm not suggesting that Home One represents the only type of Mon Cal Heavy Cruiser, but I would expect another vessel fitting that classification to be well within an order of magnitude in terms of power. I was using it as an example, not trying to suggest that it was the only type of Mon Cal Heavy Cruiser out there.

If Home One does not represent the type of ship you were referring to, then I would ask what exactly you mean when you refer to a Heavy Cruiser.

Keep in mind that not all MonCal joined the Rebeliion. In fact, the essential atlas quite clearly states that the strategy of the MonCal was contrary to that of the Rebellion.

Fair enough (though I have to ask what exactly was the strategy of the Mon Cal, when the only viable approach to dealing with the Empire was the Rebellion's use of guerilla tactics?) However, they were allies and supporters of the Rebellion, and to suggest that they would send less than one percent of this magnificent fleet to Endor, where victory was absolutely essential for their survival, seem questionable to say the least.

Moot point, as the shipyards are not protected by planetary shields and there is no evidence of the MonCal shield ever being operational again after having been destroyed by the Imps in the first battle of Dac. What stops them from blasting the shipyards? You do not need several hundred ships for that, you just need a strong enough force to defeat the MonCal fleet.

50 to 100 ISDs minimum I'd say, and that presumes that the shipyards do not have defenses of their own. And after that, they would still have to either find some way of overcoming any planetary defenses or else blockade the planet indefinitely to keep the Rebels from just rebuilding the shipyards, or at least using the world as a supply base.

So, removing Mon Calimari from the equation completely is not as simple as a quick strike on the shipyards.

Unless...the Mon Cal have a strong enough fleet that a few sector groups would not suffice.

That is a possibility, but it would conflict with much if not all of the evidence other than the fact that the Mon Calimari survived (which can be rationalized, if with difficulty, in other ways).

Option 3. Send in a raiding force of 1 SD and 5 ISDs against the non-shielded shipyards and a non-shielded planet, blast the MonCal and laugh your ass off at a planet that started a rebellion with no hopes of keeping the Imperial fleet at bay. What, you do not think the Death Squadron could have been spared for a few days?

Presumes neither the world nor the shipyard have shielding. Possible, but if the Rebels were able to shield their base on Hoth against a bombardment by Death Squadron indefinitely, you'd think they could and would do the same for the Calimari. If the Calimari can build even a few dozen capital ships, they should be able to construct such fortifications should they not?

Ultimately, it comes down to which is the least implausible of various implausibilities. Is it less likely for the Mon Cals to be able to survive for five years against the Empire with a small fleet, than it is for one recently liberated sector to have had a massive fleet on the level of thousands of heavy cruisers? I'll admit my guess of about two Sector Fleets is rather low-end, and is based on the assumption that the Mon Cals deployed a major fraction of their entire fleet at Endor. But I seriously question weather it is likely that the Mon Cals could have had a fleet of hundreds or thousands of heavy cruisers (which means vessels significantly larger than ISDs, possibly in the several km range). Frankly, the most plausible number probably lies somewhere in between, but I don't see any way to get more specific than a rough guess short of an official Mon Calimari Order of Battle being published, or simply assuming that every Mon Cal ship was at Endor and doing a count of on-screen ships (obviously badly flawed for a number of reasons).

[Anguirus]

It is very, very hard to destroy the Death Star by conventional means. you could propably raze it with a fleet big enough - but did the Rebellion have such an fleet?

For what it's worth, and note that it is non-canon, but in the first draft of the RotJ script the Rebel fleet destroys TWO Death Stars once the Rebels on the sanctuary moon (a term that makes sense in this draft) drop the shields. The difference, of course, is that these Death Stars don't have turbolasers or superlasers operational, and are missing quite a bit of armor.

Hopefully that clarifies Lucas' thinking about the issue, which is no surprise because we know that a Mon Cal cruiser could pull off a BDZ. Keep in mind that you don't have to vaporize the thing to make it less than useless...if you melt the surface to slag and destroy all sensitive equipment it is probably cheaper to start from scratch (and you will also have managed to kill nearly everyone on the station).

Also, some more thoughts on the 500 X-wing attack. The attack was described mostly by the experiences of the TIE pilot character, who was appalled at the lack of skill of his opponents. They made no effort to defend themselves, zooming straight for the station and being destroyed by a smaller number of TIE fighters. You guys have analyzed many aspects of this attack (it was the result of bad intelligence and poor planning) but I feel like the incompetence of the pilots also suggests a very hastily put-together force indeed, with little training. At this point in the evolution of the Rebellion from a bunch of cells to a galactic power, it probably strained the resources of the Rebels just to find enough bodies to crew that old ship and their fancy new fighters, let alone use them well.

The X-wings never had a chance against the Death Star without the plans, but a more competent crew could have held their own against the TIEs and at least done some minor damage to the construction effort (and a MORE competent crew would have hypered out when they saw the outer shell and the superlaser were complete).

[NecronLord]

Playing Jedi Academy has made me think of this list again. He doesn't even mention 'lack of hand rails?' Seriously, look at the Death Star landing bay; could they not splash out on a grate for that cargo elevator, so Stormtroopers wouldn't fall down it? What about those retractable bridges?

The thing must have lost hundreds of men to its own bottomless pits.

Of course, every level in JA is much the same. Which is what makes it such a wonderful game. In fact, it's basically 'force grip, the game' for me.

[Thanas]

About what? The Mon Cal planetary shield or the Hapans?

The Hapans.

It is in the courtship of Princess Leia.

pg3:

"The accompanying Star Destroyers are theirs, conquered from the Imperials"

pg 10:

"Twelve of the poorer worlds each gave Leia Star Destroyers captured from the empire"

Earlier, it talks about dozens of Star Destroyers.

And as far as I know, the MonCal's having such a large fleet is due to them having sent away their fleet after the planetary shield was breached. At least that is what I think was the general theory floating around.

I'm trying to understand the sequence of events here. The Mon Cals sent their fleet away when the Empire initially took over (is their any solid evidence for this or is it just guesswork)? Then later the Mon Calimari overthrew the Imperial occupation and the fleet came back? And this happened around 1 BBY?

If that is the case, where was that huge Mon Calimari fleet roaming around before 1 BBY? Why don't we see any signs of it in the Rebellion before then?

I honestly do not know. I would rationalize this with the Mon Cal being dedicated to only the freedom of their homeworld, not the rebel alliance, which in fact did not spare ships to protect important planets. So why would the MonCal support anyone if they got nothing in return?

There is none except for the argument that the MonCal would have needed a strong enough force to defend itself against Death Squadron at least. As the Excecutor alone is worth several squadrons of ISD, the MonCal must have had a strong enough force to defeat Death Squadron at least.

I thought the Executor was held to be worth about 20 ISDS (unless that number has been overruled by something)?

Reactor scaling would indicate more than 120 ISDs, but this is a tangent that has not really much of a bearing on the discussion here.

Add the other five ISDs, and you have about a Sector fleet's worth. And obviously the Mon Cal detachment at Endor was powerful enough to challenge Death Squadron.

That is no argument when considering In universe explanations.

Why exactly not? Those numbers are canon (weather they should be or not), and thus form part of the context one must consider when determining a plausible fleet strength for the Mon Cals. [/quote]

As do the numbers of the Imperial Starfleet - at least 25000 ISD-sized ships. Even if we assume only 5% would have been available for offensive operations, that still are 1250 Star Destroyers. I would therefore argue that the MonCal were running their yards at full capacity to match the empire's fleet. They would not have been able to spare many ships due to them needing them to keep the empire away.

That is the only explanation there is that works IMO.

Presumes they have a sizable existing force. Also, presumes they recovered the shipyards relatively intact when they booted the Empire out. Possible, but it presumes a lot.

Still more likely than the empire being too stupid to send ships after the MonCal shipyards.

Stop right there. Nowhere is the Home One being described as a typical MonCal cruiser.

Home One is a Mon Cal Heavy Cruiser. Which you are suggesting they might have hundreds or thousands of. Now, I'm not suggesting that Home One represents the only type of Mon Cal Heavy Cruiser, but I would expect another vessel fitting that classification to be well within an order of magnitude in terms of power. I was using it as an example, not trying to suggest that it was the only type of Mon Cal Heavy Cruiser out there.

If Home One does not represent the type of ship you were referring to, then I would ask what exactly you mean when you refer to a Heavy Cruiser.

The MC80 cruiser is typically described as the standard MonCal cruiser. It is a fraction of the size of Home one (about 30-50%, depending on what source you use for Home One).

Keep in mind that not all MonCal joined the Rebeliion. In fact, the essential atlas quite clearly states that the strategy of the MonCal was contrary to that of the Rebellion.

Fair enough (though I have to ask what exactly was the strategy of the Mon Cal, when the only viable approach to dealing with the Empire was the Rebellion's use of guerilla tactics?)

That was not the only viable approach. Several species/states succesfully resisted Imperial rule, for example the aforementioned Hapans. And if the MonCal used a strategy that would have had them turtle themselves in.....

However, they were allies and supporters of the Rebellion, and to suggest that they would send less than one percent of this magnificent fleet to Endor, where victory was absolutely essential for their survival, seem questionable to say the least.

As questionable as the Imps not sending more than 1-5% off their own fleet against the MonCal?

50 to 100 ISDs minimum I'd say, and that presumes that the shipyards do not have defenses of their own. And after that, they would still have to either find some way of overcoming any planetary defenses or else blockade the planet indefinitely to keep the Rebels from just rebuilding the shipyards, or at least using the world as a supply base.

So, removing Mon Calimari from the equation completely is not as simple as a quick strike on the shipyards.

Why not? BDZ the planet. It is unshielded. Nothing prevents the Imps from blasting the MonCal whenever they wish.

Unless...the Mon Cal have a strong enough fleet that a few sector groups would not suffice.

That is a possibility, but it would conflict with much if not all of the evidence other than the fact that the Mon Calimari survived (which can be rationalized, if with difficulty, in other ways).

And the other option would violate all common sense and turn the Imps into clueless idiots.

Option 3. Send in a raiding force of 1 SD and 5 ISDs against the non-shielded shipyards and a non-shielded planet, blast the MonCal and laugh your ass off at a planet that started a rebellion with no hopes of keeping the Imperial fleet at bay. What, you do not think the Death Squadron could have been spared for a few days?

Presumes neither the world nor the shipyard have shielding. Possible, but if the Rebels were able to shield their base on Hoth against a bombardment by Death Squadron indefinitely, you'd think they could and would do the same for the Calimari.

Proof that the shields on Hoth would have held up against a Torpedo Sphere? Or even a real BDZ operation? Vader wanted Prisoners, that was the main problem with Hoth for the Imps.

If the Calimari can build even a few dozen capital ships, they should be able to construct such fortifications should they not?

Yet none of those are in place either when Daala attacks or when Palpatine attacks during DE. None.

[NecronLord]

Yet none of those are in place either when Daala attacks or when Palpatine attacks during DE. None.

The DE attack is not seen from the beginning, so I don't know how you can put any upper limit on what they had unless the Dark Empire Sourcebook has something to say on the matter.

[Serafina]

On Hoth:

It was stated that "the shield is strong enough to deflect any bombarment" Video, circa 2.40

Which means that it was strong enough to resist the bombardment of an SSD and three-four ISDs.
Perhaps not indefinately, but cetainly for a sufficiently long enough time.

It does not really matter if we talk about orbital support fire (which we did not see once the shield was down), orbital landing or a BDZ - the shield prevented it. It could not be brought down in a sufficiently short time.

The only possible exception is that
-Vader did not want to risk killing certain Rebels (supported by the lack of later orbital bombardment)
-The shield could not be brought down in such a manner that the base would not sustain serious damage

[Anguirus]

^ It was a theatre shield, not a planetary shield, so it couldn't have prevented a BDZ. However, this would not have accomplished the mission goal of killing/capturing Rebels. Even if the Imps had started a BDZ the Rebels would have had time to escape, being protected from direct hits by their theatre shield, and the Imperial fleet would be spread out more and less able to capture transports leaving the planet.

You are also right in that Vader wasn't that interested in blasting the base at full strength anyway. As soon as Veers reported that the shield was about to go down he hopped in a shuttle and went straight to the base.

[Serafina]

^ It was a theatre shield, not a planetary shield, so it couldn't have prevented a BDZ. However, this would not have accomplished the mission goal of killing/capturing Rebels. Even if the Imps had started a BDZ the Rebels would have had time to escape, being protected from direct hits by their theatre shield, and the Imperial fleet would be spread out more and less able to capture transports leaving the planet.

Yes, it was. My bad (for not pointing that out).

You are also right in that Vader wasn't that interested in blasting the base at full strength anyway. As soon as Veers reported that the shield was about to go down he hopped in a shuttle and went straight to the base.

However, this can be attributed to the fact that his own troops had already entered the base. It is not prooven that he ruled out an orbital bombardment from the beginning - the fact that Veers pointed out the impossibility indicates that he considered it, and the fact that Vader was angry about that missing possibility showed that he did care about it.

[Thanas]

^Said orbital bombardment however would most likely taken out the ion cannon and/or destroyed the hangars, thereby making escape impossible.

[Isolder74]

^Said orbital bombardment however would most likely taken out the ion cannon and/or destroyed the hangars, thereby making escape impossible.

More likely the main target would be the Shield Generator. Once that is down it's safe to send tie's in to ensure that no one escapes and then they could have captured the base almost in it's entirety. Taking out the Ion cannon would really just be a nice bonus at that point.

[NecronLord]

Did Vader even care? From the opening crawl particularly, and the film, I got the impression that his only real objective was Skywalker. All the other rebels could run off, die, or whatever, as far as he cared. Only his son mattered to him, regardless of what his officers might be thinking the objective was.