Star Wars: Rebels

[Tychu]

At first thought it would make sense that Palpatine / the Empire is adding certain tests to its education program that are specifically meant to fail normal students but have force-sensitives excel at them.
But then again, why such difficult tests when the Republic had a blood test for force-sensitivity / midichlorian count?

I wonder if the Inquisitor could tell that Zare, the guy staying at the Academy, was lying or not.
Zare was one of the outstanding students after all and possibly a force-sensitive.

That would make sense. His sister "disappeared". She was probably a force sensitive that the Inquisitor picked up. He could be a teensy bit force sensitive as well

[Vance]

So what are stormtroopers? Incompetent thugs in uniform who can't hit anything, or fanatical well trained soldiers who have been conditioned from adolescence to adulthood.

The cadet training does help explain why that wookie-chasing stormtrooper who got blasted of the bridge managed to evade falling, until he got booted by Kallus. I couldn't help but notice those boys were hitting small fist sized targets whilst on the move too

In this scene, two stormtroopers create a Zeb sized circle of blast marks with missed shots, lol

[NecronLord]

So what are stormtroopers? Incompetent thugs in uniform who can't hit anything, or fanatical well trained soldiers who have been conditioned from adolescence to adulthood.

Both.

Child soldier training is historically, no more effective than recruiting adults, and fanaticism does not make you a good soldier, there is real footage of real life fanatics being far more inept than the stormtroopers; I remember seeing a hilarious video of some guys from IS in Syria attacking a Syrian army position by ra-ta-tat-tatting with AKs at one window of a building, while not covering the other exits, naturally they did this until the Syrians just called in an airstrike on their asses. There's a famous story of some fanatics from Iraq fighting an Abrams tank by rolling up, firing an RPG at it, which did literally no damage, shouting 'takbir - Allahu Ackbar' and then leaving, pretending they've won, while the Americans just stared at them. Fanaticism does not make a proficient soldier.

What it makes is a loyal soldier, capable of persecuting people for you without questioning the morals of their orders - which is what the Empire wants.

[Burak Gazan]

Except that it grates against canon. Badly.

"And these blast points. Too accurate for sandpeople. Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise." - Obi-Wan Kenobi, SW Ep IV

Not to mention the guys we saw 20 minutes prior, who blasted in and mowed down the Rebels like paper target cutouts. They want to have their little cuddly disney fun, go right ahead. But don't pretend it's relevant

[Purple]

Except that it grates against canon. Badly.

"And these blast points. Too accurate for sandpeople. Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise." - Obi-Wan Kenobi, SW Ep IV

Not to mention the guys we saw 20 minutes prior, who blasted in and mowed down the Rebels like paper target cutouts. They want to have their little cuddly disney fun, go right ahead. But don't pretend it's relevant

Thing is, it would be strange to assume all stormtroopers are equal. I can perfectly see an elite unit serving under Vader him self being populated by clone wars veterans and elite recruits and thus being an order of magnitude above average. And Obi-Wan's impression could simply be a case of selective memory. He spent a whole war fighting along side guys that were basically the predecessors of the storm troopers. He is going to have some rather strong impressions about their quality be they right or not.

[Metahive]

Except that it grates against canon. Badly.

"And these blast points. Too accurate for sandpeople. Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise." - Obi-Wan Kenobi, SW Ep IV

Not to mention the guys we saw 20 minutes prior, who blasted in and mowed down the Rebels like paper target cutouts. They want to have their little cuddly disney fun, go right ahead. But don't pretend it's relevant

You mean the incompetent buffoons who used a single entry point, took no effort to support their assault whatsoever (mobile shields, flashbangs, smoke grenades etc.), rushed in all at once firing wildly (there's such a thing as suppressing fire and squad tactics) and as a result took horrendous losses against a lightly armed security detail? Did you notice that the floor of the Tantive 4 is littered with stormtrooper corpses afterwards?

That people tout this scene as proof for stormtrooper eliteness always baffles me to no end.

[NecronLord]

Except that it grates against canon. Badly.

It is canon. This is as canon as the original film.

"And these blast points. Too accurate for sandpeople. Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise." - Obi-Wan Kenobi, SW Ep IV

Not to mention the guys we saw 20 minutes prior, who blasted in and mowed down the Rebels like paper target cutouts. They want to have their little cuddly disney fun, go right ahead. But don't pretend it's relevant

Filoni has stated that he regards this as Obi Wan remembering how good Fett clones were, back in his day, and that Obi Wan doesn't understand how bad stormtroopers are, the character is in fact wrong in the canon.

And we've been twelve rounds before on the boarding of the rebel blockade runner, but I'll just add this; if Zeb knows how to roll grenades through a door before attacking, as shown in 'Rise of the Old Masters' why don't the troopers?

Speaking of generations, are they Stormtroopers rather than Clone Troopers in this series?
Oh, they’re using Stormtroopers, yeah. I’ll give you the big nerdy breakdown.

Please do!
In my opinion, having made The Clone Wars and now working with Stormtroopers, I would say that a Clone trooper could outgun a Stormtrooper rather easily. A Clone trooper was bred, born, raised to be a soldier. Lucky for them, the Jedi gave them a lot of personality, but they were very dedicated soldiers. Stormtroopers are drafted into service; you can join through academies. If you watch A New Hope they stand around and say, ‘Hey, you seen the new BT-16?’ They seem interested in their job but you question their dedication. They’re treated as expendable by the Empire, and they definitely can’t shoot anything.

When Obi Wan says, ‘Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise’, I think he’s making that up on the fact that he used to fight with clones, so he assumes that a Stormtrooper is really good. Much to his shock those guys can’t hit an R2 unit in a naked hallway, let alone be precise. So I like Stormtroopers, I find them very interesting. The Stormtroopers have better gear, better weapons in a lot of ways but it’s just a different war they are fighting than the Clone troopers’ was.

source

He is an executive producer of the franchise now, his interpretation informs what becomes canon.

Stormtroopers just aren't as good, get used to that, because that's what the writers and creators of the new canon regard as fact and are writing their stories based on.

[Burak Gazan]

Oh, ok....
Obi-Wan is a retard....
yup, that explanation really should win people over

Sorry, it's shitty, and it'll stay shitty. I'm certainly not in a position to tell them how to make their fluffy disney toy. Just don't expect me to care, or watch it

[NecronLord]

People don't need to be won over, the vast majority of the audience considers stormtroopers to be terrible soldiers. Imperial Stormtrooper Marksmanship Academy is a widespread meme among sci-fi fans.

Only imperial apologist fans like a lot of folks here think stormtroopers are elite warriors.

[Darth Yan]

Didn't Mike Wong make some arguments that the Empire allowed the rebels to win in the Death Star Chase (han and leia escaping) and the cloud city escape?

[Borgholio]

Yeah in the death star they allowed the rebels to escape so they could track them back to the base on Yavin. In Cloud City it was presumably to recapture Luke.

[Metahive]

Didn't Mike Wong make some arguments that the Empire allowed the rebels to win in the Death Star Chase (han and leia escaping) and the cloud city escape?

Thing is, if there's not even one single occurence on Stormtroopers acting like crack troops then every failure, genuine or staged, is what sticks. Stormtroopers in the movies are just generic, faceless and fanatically loyal mooks of the evil overlord who exist to be cut down en masse by the heroic good guys.

Also, as can be seen in the escape from Cloud City. which wasn't "staged" (stop that apologist nonsense) it wouldn't actually have mattered at all if they had been "serious" on the Death Star as they're incompetent by default.

[Batman]

The problem could be easily avoided if not everybody in the white armour was a Stormtrooper. Modern day elite units use pretty much the same gear as regular soldiers do, so 'guys in white armour'=generic Imperial infantry, Stormtroopers='elite troops Ben was referring to who also wear that armour' would've worked. Unfortunately, so far all of canon (old and new) indicates that Stormtrooper does cover everybody wearing that armour.

[NecronLord]

Didn't Mike Wong make some arguments that the Empire allowed the rebels to win in the Death Star Chase (han and leia escaping) and the cloud city escape?

Correct. On the other hand, when I say 'the audience doesn't need convincing' it is because that is not well telegraphed in the movie, again, most casual viewers don't need to be convinced that stormtroopers are bozos.

They also look it.

I just searched say, "clonetrooper shoots" and "stormtrooper shoots" and linked you to the first two hits. Contrast.

Even in the original film, there is a scene of eight armed stormtroopers running away in fear from one man with no superpowers and his wookiee sidekick.


The point I was going to make by using that 'shooting' image though, is that clonetroopers in RotS are based on motion capture of real soldiers, while the stormtrooper actors in the original films are just extras, and they shoot like people who've never fired real guns, from the hip, legs spread and level so that recoil will knock them over, gun held off the line of sight so he can't even point shoot, while the clone trooper is depicted as using a proper firing stance, stock to his shoulder, sighting down the gun, one foot back to support recoil.

The idea that they're inferior copies of clonetroopers is simply a result of the clones having far more money and care spent on making them look like first world soldiers.

[Crazedwraith]

Even given that explanation for ANH, one has to wonder when exactly Vader devised the homing beacon plan. Certainly it was after they'd busted Leia out of the cell block. So there's still quite a bit of the movie where the Trooper's ineffectiveness is all on them.

The Cloud City excuse is even more dubious. They had no real reason that I recall to let them get to the Falcon even if the hyperdrive had been deactivated. Unless Vader is supposed to have known ahead of time how the fight with Luke was going to go and that the falcon would be needed to pick him up...

[The Romulan Republic]

Oh, ok....
Obi-Wan is a retard....
yup, that explanation really should win people over

Sorry, it's shitty, and it'll stay shitty. I'm certainly not in a position to tell them how to make their fluffy disney toy. Just don't expect me to care, or watch it

Why do I get the feeling you wrote off the show as soon as you knew it was being made by Disney?

[Irbis]

took no effort to support their assault whatsoever (mobile shields, flashbangs, smoke grenades etc.)

Yeah, if you ignore the smoke/blast that accompanied their entry that did rather good job at distracting rebels. We already had discussion on flashbangs, you might as well argue for other totally obsolete kinds of arms like axes on spears. Totally incompetent, that, how they were supposed to win axe duel??

rushed in all at once firing wildly (there's such a thing as suppressing fire and squad tactics) and as a result took horrendous losses against a lightly armed security detail? Did you notice that the floor of the Tantive 4 is littered with stormtrooper corpses afterwards?

Stop making stuff up. Here, let me remind you how it looked in real movie:



Protip: Stormtroopers are the ones in white

Funny that, I see about 5:1 losses on rebel side and the floor littered with rebel corpses. The fact that rebels had like 30 guns (in cover!) trained on the entry point and still lost with big casualties can be only used to belittle attacking force by blind people, sorry.

Filoni has stated that he regards this as Obi Wan remembering how good Fett clones were, back in his day, and that Obi Wan doesn't understand how bad stormtroopers are, the character is in fact wrong in the canon.

Which is nonsense because Obi Wan saw not only the first, best clone models, he also saw later, rushed ones and partially conscripted army. He also had 25 years (in which time he didn't only sit in a cave) to observe changes. Jesus, did that idiot ever tried to consider what happened in the gap between trilogies or just turned brain off and assumed the gap was as long as time needed to change DVDs?

In my opinion, having made The Clone Wars and now working with Stormtroopers, I would say that a Clone trooper could outgun a Stormtrooper rather easily. A Clone trooper was bred, born, raised to be a soldier. Lucky for them, the Jedi gave them a lot of personality, but they were very dedicated soldiers. Stormtroopers are drafted into service; you can join through academies. If you watch A New Hope they stand around and say, ‘Hey, you seen the new BT-16?’ They seem interested in their job but you question their dedication. They’re treated as expendable by the Empire, and they definitely can’t shoot anything.

...

That's about M Night Shalayman level of stupid. Does he seriously compare 2 alone troopers in the middle of long shift on most powerful battle station in the universe who might have been just mind clouded by Obi Wan to clonetroopers in the middle of battle?

Yeah, I can "prove" NAVY Seals are worse than Sudanese tribal rebels in the exact same way, just look at these non-threatening, unarmed, unfocused losers



Uh, did he ever watch TOT? Where the only battle ever lost by stormtroopers was one where rebels had unexpected native reinforcements? Pulling not hitting R2D2 into it is also all kinds of dumb, considering stormtroopers were right in the middle of battle and were trying to hit rebels, not harmless robot. In fact, not panicking and not hitting R2 requires considerable discipline and level head. In IT, there is word for an idiot who doesn't get what he sees: GIGO

By the way, I know it's probably non canon anymore, but TCG identified these stormtroopers he tarred as clones, not draftees:



So it shows how much he knows about his supposedly "beloved" setting...

He is an executive producer of the franchise now, his interpretation informs what becomes canon.

No, he is executive producer of children Disney cartoon. Post about as important as Marvel comic writers were in 70s.

I just searched say, "clonetrooper shoots" and "stormtrooper shoots" and linked you to the first two hits.

...wait, google personalized searches are an argument since when?

Also, yeah, sure you won't find many shots of stormtroopers massacring opposition since most of their wins were off camera, but I don't think it means you can't argue they don't exist

***

Anyway, nothing of the above is important, really. Just ask yourself a question - if you were Emperor, who would you pick as army? Elite troops, doesn't matter if clones (who you can condition to accept Order 66) or fanatical volunteers, or child soldiers and buffoons without real combat skills who just anger population at your regime?

The people belittling stormtroopers should take step back and realize option B doesn't make any fucking sense whatsoever when A is cheaper, faster, and doesn't hand very expensive equipment of space heavy infantry into hands of useless mooks. That's the point we're trying to make - no regime on Earth ever functioned for long with such idiotic rulers, and if that was really all that Palpatine had his regime wouldn't survive 3 years, much less 30...

[NecronLord]

Anyway, nothing of the above is important, really. Just ask yourself a question - if you were Emperor, who would you pick as army? Elite troops, doesn't matter if clones (who you can condition to accept Order 66) or fanatical volunteers, or child soldiers and buffoons without real combat skills who just anger population at your regime?

Combat skills have nothing to do with angering the population at your regime. Having stormtroopers with better training won't help there.

And the buffoontroopers are still able to keep the population in line.

The people belittling stormtroopers should take step back and realize option B doesn't make any fucking sense whatsoever when A is cheaper, faster, and doesn't hand very expensive equipment of space heavy infantry into hands of useless mooks. That's the point we're trying to make - no regime on Earth ever functioned for long with such idiotic rulers, and if that was really all that Palpatine had his regime wouldn't survive 3 years, much less 30...

You just argued that 'elite soldiers' are cheaper to deploy and equip than shit ones. You're stupid.

You also argued that a clonetrooper who takes ten years to train is faster than a stormtrooper who takes 'a few short weeks' to become a soldier.

[Metahive]

Yeah, if you ignore the smoke/blast that accompanied their entry that did rather good job at distracting rebels. We already had discussion on flashbangs, you might as well argue for other totally obsolete kinds of arms like axes on spears. Totally incompetent, that, how they were supposed to win axe duel??

You mean the blast that had no effect on the defenders followed by a fish in a barrel approach which quickly resulted in numerous unnecessary imperial casualties? Any SWAT team here on Earth could have done better.

Also, "obsolete", huh? I don't see Leia's security wear any environmental protection, not even a face-covering helmet, smoke or flash grenades would undoubtedly effective unless you somehow think SW humans have an inborn immunity to those things.

Protip: Stormtroopers are the ones in white

Protip, you smug little shit, I see lots of white litter the ground due to shitty tactics and incompetence. Way more than if they had used RL tactics for breach and entry.

Funny that, I see about 5:1 losses on rebel side and the floor littered with rebel corpses. The fact that rebels had like 30 guns (in cover!) trained on the entry point and still lost with big casualties can be only used to belittle attacking force by blind people, sorry.

A FUCKING LIGHTLY ARMED SECURITY DETAIL! They had only pistols and no armor aside from token bicycle helmets, hardly some sort of fearsome professional opposition for a supposed crack army.

Here, an entry plan that would have minimized casualties:

1.Breach from more than the one position that everybody expects hostile's to enter from. They have all the time they need to cut their way into the ship from other positions which forces the defenders to split up or risk flanking maneuvers
2.Throw in flashbangs, tear-gas or smoke grenades prior to entry. Leia's guards don't wear environmental protection, they're susceptible to all of them
3.Use suppressing fire on the defenders to force them into cover, use that moment to rush men in
4.Have the point men use riot shields to cover the approach. Don't give me shit about that being "obsolete" too, if the fucking Gungans had them on Naboo then Empire might as well employ them just for occasions like this

Or hey, let's take a page from ol' Sunzi and go for victory without a fight:

6.Don't enter at all, deacivate the ships' life support from the outside until the people inside need to come out or suffocate.

There, was that so hard?

[NecronLord]

And for the record, yes, real regimes that do this exist and survive for decades, without external pressure. Saudi Arabia is popularly theorized to deliberately sabotage its army's training and equipment to prevent espirit de corps giving the soldiers more loyalty to their generals than to their princes and paymasters, while Syria has historically prevented its tank crews receiving training in using maps, in order to prevent insurrection, allowing only one soldier per tank platoon to attend a map reading course, and that soldier is the one with the best loyalty record, he works in the front tank, the first one the enemy destroy, after which the tank platoon is unable to navigate, but it doesn't matter, because he will stop them going on unauthorized maneuvers. Various armies are in fact, well known for prioritizing loyalty over independent decision making just like what Filoni says the Empire does and for exactly the same reasons.

[Batman]

Excuse me, what exactly was it that gave the Rebel troops cover? Because in any version of ANH that I've seen (including the video Irbis linked to) they were sitting out in the open along the walls of that corridor.

[Metahive]

Excuse me, what exactly was it that gave the Rebel troops cover? Because in any version of ANH that I've seen (including the video Irbis linked to) they were sitting out in the open along the walls of that corridor.

They relied on their character shields for cover but failed to notice that they're just nameless extras.

[Rogue 9]

Anyway...

Another character development episode. Sabine trained in an Imperial academy on Mandalore and has issues with blindly following orders. Also, a nice side dose of horror tropes. When in a dark room full of unknown but apparently very destructive creatures, walk backwards into the darkness shining your flashlight in the direction you aren't going!

[Batman]

They also didn't didn't notice the painfully visible leaked fuel puddle. Also, given the 'Phantom' made it back to base with the fuel line leaking like a sieve, how the hell did it go from 'nearly a full tank' to 'empty' in the few minutes it was on the ground?
And how the hell does Hera put that headgear on?
And is it me or are the 'solar panels' (yeah, sure) on the TIEs in this series noticeably shorter than they were in the movies?

[Rogue 9]

And is it me or are the 'solar panels' (yeah, sure) on the TIEs in this series noticeably shorter than they were in the movies?

They are. The designers actually talk about this in some of the behind the scenes videos; they're working from Ralph McQuarrie's concept art. I'll try to find where they talk about it.