The New SW Canon

[the atom]

Leia REMEMBERED her mother - Luke was TOLD his father was a pick-up redneck trucker. Big difference there.

Honestly I always just sort of assumed Leia was talking about her adoptive mother or something.

Except Luke directly asked about her real mother, so...not quite.

Non-dumb possibility: Her first adoptive mother died when she was young and her father remarried?

[RogueIce]

Except Luke directly asked about her real mother, so...not quite.

Non-dumb possibility: Her first adoptive mother died when she was young and her father remarried?

That is a theory supported nowhere by the movies.

Look, my point isn't that you can't invent some kind of retcon to 'justify' this plot hole. My point is that it is a plot hole, no matter how you slice it.

[the atom]

Except Luke directly asked about her real mother, so...not quite.

Non-dumb possibility: Her first adoptive mother died when she was young and her father remarried?

That is a theory supported nowhere by the movies.

Are you saying that having a second adoptive mother is less likely than her remembering Padme shortly after being born?

[RogueIce]

Non-dumb possibility: Her first adoptive mother died when she was young and her father remarried?

That is a theory supported nowhere by the movies.

Are you saying that having a second adoptive mother is less likely than her remembering Padme shortly after being born?

Is there a reason you ignored the second part of my post, where I explain that it doesn't matter if you can invent some retcon after the fact, that this scene combined with what we see occur in Episode III constitutes a plot hole and inconsistency between the two trilogies?

Because the point of me saying "That is a theory supported nowhere by the movies" was that you would never even have a reason to assume this "second adoptive mother" thing if it wasn't for the plot hole of Padme dying immediately after childbirth juxtaposed with Luke asking if Leia remembers her real mother.

[Paolo]

It's just the way the line was said.

"Do you remember your mother? Your real mother?"

And Leia just answers him, no confusion about "lolwut I only had one mother" or anything like that. Which yes, carries the implication that Leia had to have known she was adopted, and saw her real mother at some point when she was very young. Otherwise the scene makes no sense.

Force vision?

Uh...no?

Aww. Why not?

I mean sure, you could try to make some kind of hand-wave like that. But it does nothing to address the fact that yes, it's a plot hole because the end of Episode III pretty much contradicts that scene in Episode VI. It was a screw-up and no amount of after-the-fact retcons can really change that.

Yes, I know I could, because I just did. It not only reconciles the contradiction you propose, but it does so using a plot device actually featured in the film. Of course, if you think that's a ham-fisted appeal to Leia's force sensitivity, you could always go with any of the completely sensible, mundane alternatives which essentially revolve around Leia being mistaken about who her real mother is. And it's not like Luke can help clear up matters for her, seeing as he has no memory of a "real mother" at all.

That is a theory supported nowhere by the movies.

On the contrary, just about any theory that plausibly squares Leia's claim of remembering her "mother" with Padme's death at childbirth is supported by the movies. That's pretty much the definition of "theory."

Look, my point isn't that you can't invent some kind of retcon to 'justify' this plot hole. My point is that it is a plot hole, no matter how you slice it.

I believe the whole point of suspension of disbelief is coming up with these "retcons" in order to sustain it. Otherwise, we're just throwing pies.

[Meest]

Didn't see this mentioned anywhere. In the comic Shattered Empire #4 Luke and Poe Dameron's mother steal back "force trees" from an imperial base, one is planted on Poe's home planet, the other for Luke's new Jedi Temple. Speculation on if Rey is Poe's sister or the trees somehow influenced her birth or explain the origin of the force.

[texanmarauder]

I'm still wondering if wong is ever going to update his site to jive with the new canon. I know a lot of it was based on EU numbers before Disney took over, the ICS and such, and some was just based on visuals from the movies. if he would knock off the inflammatory bias junk and the fake turbolaser power calcs and update the site to current canon then it might almost be respectable.

[texanmarauder]

speaking of the new canon, has anybody read anything that would make reprints or updated reprints canon? ive seen people throwing around the 2016 updated reprint of star wars complete vehicles, saying that it makes the old ICS numbers canon again. I was under the impression that 1, it was never canon to begin with since it was EU and 2, reprinting something that was first published in 2013 doesn't make it canon since it is old EU info. all they did was add some vehicles from TFA. thoughts?

[Q99]

A reprint would still be Legends canon. A new version with TFA stuff... well, that's much more up in the air. Depends somewhat on how they handle the background info of something with specifically old-EU plot (like, Coral Skippers or E-Wings).

[texanmarauder]

A reprint would still be Legends canon. A new version with TFA stuff... well, that's much more up in the air. Depends somewhat on how they handle the background info of something with specifically old-EU plot (like, Coral Skippers or E-Wings).

the way I understand it, any info that was published before the Disney cut off would still be legends. complete vehicles is basically just the ICS books all rolled into one. as for TFA stuff, it would be canon, but the rest of the book wouldn't be. IIRC the only ICS claiming the biggatons was AOTC. could be wrong on that one. either way, just because they updated and reprinted doesn't mean that the whole book would be canon. ive had more than one debater on youtube throw it at me claiming the whole book is now canon.

[Crazedwraith]

If it's been printed and not labelled Legends, i'd call that canon myself.

[Elheru Aran]

The ICS stuff was always just movie vehicles and sets, so it's not a concern as far as extraneous EU stuff went. IIRC the reprints of such are still canon.

And Wong isn't bothering to update the site because he's got other things to do with his time these days. The main page is pretty much still up just as a vehicle for the forum these days.

[texanmarauder]

The ICS stuff was always just movie vehicles and sets, so it's not a concern as far as extraneous EU stuff went. IIRC the reprints of such are still canon.

no it wasn't. it was also speed, firepower, and other specific stats. and they were labeled under C Canon in the old holocron. C canon was specifically for the EU and was relabeled Legends by Disney and deemed non canon. even lucas himself said that the EU had nothing to do with his stuff (films and other canon works) unless he used it in said canon works not once, but several times. so the ICS books were never canon for the films and such. only for other EU. Disney put the final kibosh on that subject anyway when they made legends non canon. just because it was reprinted doesn't make It canon. by disneys rules, all material written before the cutoff is now non canon for sure. that even includes the novelizations. so there is no way that the ICS books are "still canon" when they weren't canon to start with.

[texanmarauder]

If it's been printed and not labelled Legends, i'd call that canon myself.

even if it was reprinted after the Disney cutoff, it would still be legends and non canon since its reprinting non canon info. for that matter, there are plenty of the old novels still being sold that are non canon.