I have got a problem

[His Divine Shadow]

How so? If the Chiss have the 1000 SDs that HDS suggested, why are none of them in orbit defending the last hope for the Empire/defense of the galaxy?

That was just a pie in the sky comment

[Illuminatus Primus]

I'm sorry Thrawn isn't racist enough for you to not love him. How that is anything but racism escapes me

It's not racism in the sense that others are inferior, it's just something in their society that makes certain things tabu, Thrawn already violated one of them, that doesn't make him immune to others.

I see. So preferencial treatment to your own species over others and specific social codes demanding different punishments for species other than your own is not blatent racism? That he didn't listen to one is irrelevent. He does listen to this one and kept records of it on the Chimaera, by that quote.

The Bible in fundie subculture makes saying that God butchering kids in the Old Testament is taboo, remember.

Where there are rocky terrestial worlds, there will be habitable worlds, the two go hand and hand and they'll need a populace to support an economy and manpower resources for the supposed fleet. Material and manpower resources that are not there. No economy. Nada.

Rocky and terrestial does not mean habitable as I've said(mars or venus are not habitable are they, not ever rocky world is a socalled m-class planet), for any warmachine except one of the most stupidly gigantical proportions the ones in [SW?]

The galactic habitable zone does not extend beyond the galaxy's rim. Therefore, an extremely low probablity of finding systems of high metallicity exists. Therefore, the probability of finding any rocky worlds (much less habitable ones) is very very low. And that's dodging on the point you need a bunch of inhabited worlds to drive an economy to fuel such a military.

The point is, if the Empire couldn't raise a fleet as big as they are talking about, there's no way, given the nature of territories controlled by the Phalanx and their inferior technology, they could build a fleet that big.

The burden of proof is on you to prove that the fleet exists. I've shown that they have far less resources, less technology, far less manpower, and no economy at all when compared with the Imperial Remnant. Now how they're supposed to have 30 x the fleet based SOLELY on the fact their territory has 30 x the volume?!

Thus not only are the stars fewer out there, they are also less likely to have planets, both habitable and mining-worthy

Unless they construct a quadrillion ships it's not a big matter, there more than enough materials in the galaxy to sustain large civilizations.

Irrelevent dodge. How is the Phalanx supposed to be better than the Imperial Remnant with less resources, less technology, less manpower, and no economy?

The point is, it has been demonstrated the the Imperial Remnant could not make a fleet that large. Now how is the Phalanx supposed to do it with less? Especially since it is all based merely on the fact from glancing at a map that the Phalanx has 30 x as much territory, most of which is empty I remind you.

Impossible

Possible, as the books shows.

Bullshit. Attack of the Clones specifically pointed out, but in the full map of the galactic disk, and in the dialogue in library that the galactic disk is fully mapped. What is more, there is no direct reference in the books stating the Unknown Regions is part of the galactic disk. Beyond even that, there are other Official maps that show the entire galaxy as known territory. The erronous and never directly supported (in the books) map in the NJO novels is the EXCEPTION. Not the rule. Both canon and official and science and common sense overrule it.

Their FTL drive can cross the galaxy in days and they haven't mapped the whole disk?

They can and have mapped it, as in star positions, however as has been shown also on Saxton's site is an idea that the Unknown regions are inaccessible, they also thought there was a galatic barrier, there was not.

So in at least 4,000 years of FTL travel where they can get across the galaxy in a day or two they chose not to extend trade routes and colonization into that part of the galaxy?! They just ignored one specific zone of the galaxy full of these magic powerhouse civilizations?!

The "galactic barrier" is a pseudoscientific myth in the SW galaxy according to Saxton. And that much is obvious and official agrees with him: the Yuuzhan Vong used hyperspace to enter the galaxy. The "barrier" is one of the reasons no body explored the Unknown Regions, because it was outside the galactic disk.

Well as I said, I do not find that knowing the dimensional locations of the stars being a contradiction, what I mean is that the unknown regions where simply not entered or explored, such a rationalization would not create any internal conflicts.

Despite the fact it makes no common sense? That they'd ignore nearly a fifth of the galaxy just empty even though they had FTL that takes a day or two to traverse the galaxy and it'd be full of these magic never-before-seen races? It makes no common sense they'd just leave it empty. The idea they'd have their maps up to date in Attack of the Clones and somehow forget so Thrawn had to MAP the Unknown Regions is implausable. Disregarding an error on a map for which there's no direct evidence for in the books (IIRC) is better then twisting things around to create other contradictions, especially ones in common sense.

Baseless assumption contradicted by official evidence. The Yuuzhan Vong were not the species the Chiss were afraid of. Jag states in the NJO the Chiss never knew of the Yuuzhan Vong. Their only pre-NJO incursions involved the incident at Zanoma Sekot, infilitration by Nom Anor, and the scout force at Bimmiel

He was right as in there was shit out there that would scare them shitless, so this wasn't that particular species, so? There could still be local shit in there that could give the NR a good scare, unless ofcourse he was speaking on a personal level of fright.

Ok. So if we found a plan to invade Nazi Germany in Stalin's vaults somewhere, that would make their paranoia ok? Whether the fanaticism is proved right does not make it not fanaticism. What you said is completely irrevelent.

How so? If the Chiss have the 1000 SDs that HDS suggested, why are none of them in orbit defending the last hope for the Empire/defense of the galaxy?

That was just a pie in the sky comment

I know, it was just an example. If they had the fleet, it would be protecting their most valuable resource, especially since they knew Mara was coming, because they lured her there.

I can tell you the NR sure has their ace-in-the-hole (Red bioweapon), surrounded by lots of warships. I can tell you the Imperial Remnant certainly well-protected their last major shipyard at Yaga Minor.

[His Divine Shadow]

I see. So preferencial treatment to your own species over others and specific social codes demanding different punishments for species other than your own is not blatent racism? That he didn't listen to one is irrelevent. He does listen to this one and kept records of it on the Chimaera, by that quote.

I'm not saying it isn't, I thought this was clear.

The Bible in fundie subculture makes saying that God butchering kids in the Old Testament is taboo, remember.

I know.

The burden of proof is on you to prove that the fleet exists. I've shown that they have far less resources, less technology, far less manpower, and no economy at all when compared with the Imperial Remnant. Now how they're supposed to have 30 x the fleet based SOLELY on the fact their territory has 30 x the volume?!

You've shown it is likely to be so, I've not really disagreed with the overall conclusion as much as certain points.
I'm not saying they have 30 times their fleet either, I'm saying that if the book VOTF is reliable they should have a superior fleet as of VOTF anyway, what state they are in at Destiny's Way is unknown the Imperial Remnant might very well bemore powerfull than them now when they've had a chance to rebuild.

Irrelevent dodge. How is the Phalanx supposed to be better than the Imperial Remnant with less resources, less technology, less manpower, and no economy?

Those are to me all unknowns, not certanties, the time point is also important here.

The point is, it has been demonstrated the the Imperial Remnant could not make a fleet that large. Now how is the Phalanx supposed to do it with less? Especially since it is all based merely on the fact from glancing at a map that the Phalanx has 30 x as much territory, most of which is empty I remind you.

Bullshit. Attack of the Clones specifically pointed out, but in the full map of the galactic disk, and in the dialogue in library that the galactic disk is fully mapped. What is more, there is no direct reference in the books stating the Unknown Regions is part of the galactic disk. Beyond even that, there are other Official maps that show the entire galaxy as known territory. The erronous and never directly supported (in the books) map in the NJO novels is the EXCEPTION. Not the rule. Both canon and official and science and common sense overrule it.

Very well, we'll retconn it so say they are outside the disk then, then your arguments makes more sense.

So in at least 4,000 years of FTL travel where they can get across the galaxy in a day or two they chose not to extend trade routes and colonization into that part of the galaxy?! They just ignored one specific zone of the galaxy full of these magic powerhouse civilizations?!

I don't believe I've called them powerhouses.
I also believe there are mentions of pirates and stuff hiding in the unknown regions now and then.

The "galactic barrier" is a pseudoscientific myth in the SW galaxy according to Saxton. And that much is obvious and official agrees with him: the Yuuzhan Vong used hyperspace to enter the galaxy. The "barrier" is one of the reasons no body explored the Unknown Regions, because it was outside the galactic disk

Yes, just as the barrier was a myth so was the unknown regions being inflicted with something similar.

Ok. So if we found a plan to invade Nazi Germany in Stalin's vaults somewhere, that would make their paranoia ok? Whether the fanaticism is proved right does not make it not fanaticism. What you said is completely irrevelent

They're not fanatics I think, I didn't get that impression of them, I still don't, the general/admiral seemed like a rational person to me, just because his tone was arrogant as to Mara Jade's ignorance of the stuff that lurks out there does not mean he's a fanatical paranoid freak.

[Illuminatus Primus]

You've shown it is likely to be so, I've not really disagreed with the overall conclusion as much as certain points.
I'm not saying they have 30 times their fleet either, I'm saying that if the book VOTF is reliable they should have a superior fleet as of VOTF anyway, what state they are in at Destiny's Way is unknown the Imperial Remnant might very well bemore powerfull than them now when they've had a chance to rebuild.

Alright. Assuming the Phalanx had equal technology, equal manpower, equal resources, and equal economy (everything it does not have).

Given equal time as the Remnant, wouldn't you expect them to produce the same levels?

Now take away all of that (make the Phalanx how they really are). They will produce less. There's no evidence of any fleet other than glancing at that holo and guessing there was 30 x the volume which I've shown has jack and shit to do with the fleet you'd expect. This is just backed up by the fact that we only see crap weapons and little fighters from the Phalanx, even defending their most precious site.

Those are to me all unknowns, not certanties, the time point is also important here.

Evidence over uninformed character opinions. There's no realistic way they could have more stuff than the Remnant.

Very well, we'll retconn it so say they are outside the disk then, then your arguments makes more sense.

It's not that I care either way, but the Thrawn Trilogy itself contradicts that map. Almost all the books depict Wild Space and the Unknown Regions to be concentric rings about the galaxy. Couple that w/ FTL speed and time, the only acceptable conclusion is that the map has a mistake on it. Otherwise books start to contradict each other and sense goes to hell and it creates a big fuckin mess.

I don't believe I've called them powerhouses.
I also believe there are mentions of pirates and stuff hiding in the unknown regions now and then.

I am saying that they're powerhouses.

The civilization of droids w/ 50 km spheres as average ships are definitely a powerhouse, as are the Nagai and the Tofs which have Chiss-level technology at least and launched incursions into the galaxy proper when the Empire fell apart after Endor.

The "galactic barrier" is a pseudoscientific myth in the SW galaxy according to Saxton. And that much is obvious and official agrees with him: the Yuuzhan Vong used hyperspace to enter the galaxy. The "barrier" is one of the reasons no body explored the Unknown Regions, because it was outside the galactic disk

Yes, just as the barrier was a myth so was the unknown regions being inflicted with something similar.

Exactly. I don't want to sound like I just take the arguments from Saxton, but I don't see how else to minimize contradictions among the sources and with common sense.

They're not fanatics I think, I didn't get that impression of them, I still don't, the general/admiral seemed like a rational person to me, just because his tone was arrogant as to Mara Jade's ignorance of the stuff that lurks out there does not mean he's a fanatical paranoid freak.

Well, I didn't notice the first time either. Publius noted to me once the drastic similarity to Hitler's rants on the Bolshevik hordes and the incredible things he says about that aide, Dorianna and Jade, as well as the suspicious nature of where Niruaan is relative to the galaxy proper in conjunction with the sleeper cells of clones INSIDE the galactic disk, rather then out in the UR where they should be if they were for defense of the Chiss made me go back and re-read Vision of the Future. And I see it now.

It isn't so much I think Parck was a psycho. I think Thrawn was what GAT's custom title says. An Imperial tyrant. I think he cared about power and galactic order first, and defense of the Chiss second, with all other concerns irrelevent. I just think he fed Parck and his recruits a load of bullshit to keep them quietly and faithfully standing watch on his base of secrets and his clone, rather then relocating to an affective location to defend the UR, and allying with the Empire before.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Point being thus:

Evidence in official demands/proves that the Phalanx is weaker than the New Republic.

Evidence strongly suggests that the Phalanx was actually weaker then the Imperial Remnant. At least the very least in terms of fleet counts.

Evidence points to the fact the Phalanx was much weaker than the Imperial Remnant altogether.

Circumstancial evidence has led me to believe that the Phalanx (in conjunction with the clone sleeper cells) was really one of the Thrawn's redundent contingency plans for conquest of the galaxy proper, not actually for defense, but this is really my personal opinion.

[His Divine Shadow]

Now take away all of that (make the Phalanx how they really are). They will produce less. There's no evidence of any fleet other than glancing at that holo and guessing there was 30 x the volume which I've shown has jack and shit to do with the fleet you'd expect. This is just backed up by the fact that we only see crap weapons and little fighters from the Phalanx, even defending their most precious site

I believe that most of the Chiss' millitary comes from the ships and material fed to Thrawn by the Galatic Empire and that they got a pretty good industrial base thanks to this, but if they're technologically inferior they might not be able to maintain this base without help and expertise, so the clawcraft, which is a superior fighter from it's performance record anyway, but inferior hyperdrive systems.

Evidence over uninformed character opinions. There's no realistic way they could have more stuff than the Remnant

I feel it depends on the time, in VOTF the IR had fought for very long and they where very stressedm by DW they can have built up beyond the Chiss' abilities.

The civilization of droids w/ 50 km spheres as average ships are definitely a powerhouse, as are the Nagai and the Tofs which have Chiss-level technology at least and launched incursions into the galaxy proper when the Empire fell apart after Endor.

What civilizations are these? I've never heard of them.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I believe that most of the Chiss' millitary comes from the ships and material fed to Thrawn by the Galatic Empire and that they got a pretty good industrial base thanks to this, but if they're technologically inferior they might not be able to maintain this base without help and expertise, so the clawcraft, which is a superior fighter from it's performance record anyway, but inferior hyperdrive systems.

The Clawcraft seems to me a Chiss attempt to copy TIE peformance in the best package they could get.

Whatever became of Thrawn's fleet during his mapping campiagn I don't know. If it is still out there, the Phalanx might do the Imperial Remnant as of Visions, but if Palpatine withdrew it secretly like he did in several places while Thrawn returned to conquer the galaxy, that would explain why we see no evidence of it in Visions, but either is quite possible. I like the idea that Thrawn was fucking with them because it fits with his subtle but brilliant affective strategy and his penchant for contingency plans, and also because EU deus ex machinas to save the Empire that the heroes constantly stop irritate me and this interpretation is viable and it gets a rid of at least one.

I feel it depends on the time, in VOTF the IR had fought for very long and they where very stressedm by DW they can have built up beyond the Chiss' abilities.

The Imperials seem to have prospered significantly from the peacetime after Visions, I'd say.

The civilization of droids w/ 50 km spheres as average ships are definitely a powerhouse, as are the Nagai and the Tofs which have Chiss-level technology at least and launched incursions into the galaxy proper when the Empire fell apart after Endor.

What civilizations are these? I've never heard of them.

They're described in the Essential Guide to Droids and originally from the novel Lando Calrissian the Starcave of ThonBoka.

Here's the EGtD description...

Eons ago in the Unknown Regions, an advanced alien species was tragically wiped out by a sudden radiation storm. Their droids, however, lived on becoming sentient and modifying their forms into fifty-kilometer space-going spheres. But the robotic entities were excessively timid, resulting in a dull and stagnant society. Vuffi Raa was constructed for the purpose gathering resh information from the outside galaxy.

Vuffi Raa was a droid that accompanied him on many of his travels chronicaled in...

Lando Calrissian and the Mindharp of Sharu
Lando Calrissian and the Flamewind of Oseon
Lando Calrissian and the Starcave of ThonBoka

In the last book, Calrissian is trying to assist a sentient space-going species in evading the Empire, and they're about to open fire, but then hundreds of these 50 km spheres emurged from hyperspace and ordered on all channels for all ships to stand down or be destroyed. The Imperial force of Carrack-class picket ships bugged out and they took Vuffi Raa from Calrissian and departed for the Unknown Regions.

You can find out more in the Essential Chronology.

[Darth Yoshi]

The NR was perfectly willing to use Alpha Red. If Vergere hadn't interfered, the NR no doubt would have. If they were willing to use it, I'd say that there was a good chance they'd try developing it, too. Also, IIRC, the Chiss did most of the work, but there were NR scientists involved in the development of the weapon.

[Master of Ossus]

1.) The Chiss have inferior technology, resources, and manpower to the New Republic.

They created a biological weapon in a few months that the entire NR was unable to develop in their years of combating the YV. This indicates either greater resource potential in the field, or greater technology. Additionally, their fighters have outperformed XJ X-Wings.

All astronomy, plus descriptions of their territory would suggest their resource pool is magnitudes lower then the galactic disk's.

You make the assumption the NR was attempting to build said weapon and could not, but the Chiss could. The fact that the NR would not even engage in orbital bombardments frequently enough for the YV to know about the tactic in Rebel Stand incidates the NR would not have attempted to make such a weapon. Therefore, there's no evidence that the Chiss could make such a weapon faster then the NR.

Fact still stands that the Clawcraft has hypernavigation technology that's 4,000 years old to the rest of the galaxy.

Their charrics are vastly inferior to blasters.

What the hell does this have to do with what I wrote? The Chiss clawcraft have outperformed XJ X-Wings in terms of speed, maneuverability, and firepower over a local and brief engagement. They have what appears to be greater range, and obviously take little maintenance even when in combat situations and without the ability to return to a starbase or similar facility to repair and re-arm. The XJ X-Wings that the NR uses have none of those abilities, thus the Chiss starfighters are more advanced models. While I agree with you that the resources available to the Galactic Disk will be far greater than those available to the Chiss, you must also remember that the Chiss have been developing those resources. Remember that the NR was threatened by the YEVETHA, who had conquered no more than a few sectors worth of territory, and who had a fleet that was made up of the equivalent of not more than 60 Imperial warships.

A full concentration of AA fire from mostly Chiss weapons couldn't penetrate the shields of a yacht from the galaxy proper, even though you'd expect landing shuttles and gunships and dropships to be of similar scale.

That armored yacht has also withstood weapons fire from Galaxy proper weapons, albeit with what is likely less exposure time.

2.) The "House Phalanx" has recieved no support in resources, manpower, or technology since the OT. All of the difference has to be made through home-grown stuff or from the Chiss who have extremely inferior everything.

So they've either made it up (as evidenced above), or they did not originally have inferior technology.

The Clawcraft was comissioned after Vision of the Future and it still didn't have a decent navicomputer.

Red herring. They clearly do by the time of the NJO, because they are able to sustain independent operations for a considerable duration of time, and while ranging far beyond the Unknown Regions into the Galaxy Proper. They have been attacking YV along trade-routes as of Destiny's Way, and have been operating as far afield as the Hapan cluster without assistance. That indicates a "decent navicomputer."

3.) Thrawn's "House Phalanx" (the faction at Niruaan) had no support whatsoever. It's only defenses were the weak Chiss counterpart to turbolasers. Their only observed ships were Clawcraft.

True, however they were able to construct a massive and well armored fortress, with war droids that were clearly superior to the ones in the Galaxy proper.

You could've achieved the same result with a Super Battle Droid from AOTC if you gave it blasters too weak to harm itself but strong enough to kill unarmored humans and then gave it cortosis weave into the surface.

So what? They didn't. Even if we believe your assumption that a super battle droid COULD have been made, you're just extrapolating into unknowns. If I took R2-D2, gave him a 200GT turbolaser, and strapped on the armor that the suncrusher uses, then I could devise an unstoppable wardroid. The fact of the matter is, though, that this is ridiculous to the point of insanity.

It would've been just as unstoppable for Luke and Mara. Their problem was that the droids put out too much fire for them to have time to use the Force to destroy them while they were simultaneously blocking blaster bolts. The droids' blasters couldn't harm themselves and neither could their lightsabres.

Irrelevent. The SBD's were NOT armed and armored in the same manner.

I see the Chiss as being the third most powerful non-YV group remaining in the Galaxy, after the New Republic or the Empire.

Probably. The Peace Brigade is about the only other faction too though.

The Hapes Cluster, former CSA, Bothans and Hutts all control relatively substantial forces (at least enough to make them "factions"). However, I agree with your general assessment.

[They are certainly significant enough to throw the balance of the war in favor of the NR, because the YV currently have NO strategic reserves (as of Destiny's Way), and have lost a considerable portion of their fleet.

The war's tide has been turned in favor of the NR, and pretty much any support at all for the NR would hurt the YV.

[The combined entry of the Imperial Remnant and the Chiss into the war would be an enormous problem for the YV, and even the single entry of one of those powers would force large re-deployments of troops and ships, and probably force the YV to settle into a defensive shell, having conquered only about a quarter or a third of the Galaxy as a whole.

Complete agreement. The House Phalanx and/or the Imperial Remnant entering the war for the Republic would be the worst-case senario for the YV.

So, basically what you're saying is that the Chiss can seriously harm the YV, but do not have the massive fleets that HDS described. Would you say a fair equivalent fleet-strength for the Chiss would be approximately 100-250 ISD's? That's what I initially assumed it to be, and thought that HDS's 1000 ISD's was too large. I think that our only remaining source of disagreement is my belief that the NR's technology is approximately the same, and even weaker in some fields, than that of the Chiss. Would you agree with such a statement?

[DocMoriartty]

Has there ever been evidence of Chiss cap ships? There has to be at least one somewhere before you can assume there are any. In fact the Clawcraft are evidence that the Chiss do not have cap ships.

Why?

If the Chiss were setup along Imperial lines then why have hyperspace capable starfighters if you have large numbers of cap-ships?
This is a rebel strategy not an Imperoal strategy?

At best one might argue that the Chiss have fighters equal or maybe slightly superior to the NR. There are two things that may explain this:

1. NR X-Wings have become modified over the last couple years to deal with YV. YV fighters are very different from Imperial fighters and that change in focus may result in a ship that doesnt have to be as fast or as manueverable in favor of other items.

2. Maybe the Chiss prefer small craft and focus an overly large portion of their research on it. A much smaller economy can outperfom a larger economy if it focuses on very tight narrow technology.

What is more likely than either of those is that the claw fighters are equal or slightly inferior to NR fighters but the Chiss have sent the best of the best for their extended foray into the galaxy.

[Master of Ossus]

Has there ever been evidence of Chiss cap ships? There has to be at least one somewhere before you can assume there are any. In fact the Clawcraft are evidence that the Chiss do not have cap ships.

Why?

If the Chiss were setup along Imperial lines then why have hyperspace capable starfighters if you have large numbers of cap-ships?
This is a rebel strategy not an Imperoal strategy?

This is a distortion of the truth. Not only did the Rebels HAVE capital ships, but they were also considered by some to be superior to the Imperial ones. All space combat in SW revolves around capital ships, and the Chiss ability to successfully engage their enemies MANDATES their use of capital ships--if only ships that service their starfighters.

At best one might argue that the Chiss have fighters equal or maybe slightly superior to the NR. There are two things that may explain this:

1. NR X-Wings have become modified over the last couple years to deal with YV. YV fighters are very different from Imperial fighters and that change in focus may result in a ship that doesnt have to be as fast or as manueverable in favor of other items.

LMAO! The Chiss clawcraft compared favorably in combat scenarios with YV fighters even though they had not yet been modified to the same specifications as their NR counterparts, which were also engaged in the same battle. Thus, the Chiss clawcraft in their UNmodified state are better at engaging targets that their NR counterparts are DESIGNED to combat. This indicates only slightly better Chiss performance how? Moreover, the NR fighters engaged in this particular example were their newest XJ X-Wings, which the books state are faster than either E-Wings or A-Wings, and that they are the best starfighters the NR had as of Vector Prime.

2. Maybe the Chiss prefer small craft and focus an overly large portion of their research on it. A much smaller economy can outperfom a larger economy if it focuses on very tight narrow technology.

Who cares? It still indicates that the Chiss have far superior starfighters, even if their entire warmachine does not compare that favorably with the NR's. Concession accepted.

What is more likely than either of those is that the claw fighters are equal or slightly inferior to NR fighters but the Chiss have sent the best of the best for their extended foray into the galaxy.

LMAO! The Chiss clawcraft have been observed to be faster, more maneuverable, and nearly as heavily armed as their NR counterparts. They have also shown to be just as versatile time and again, and have been shown to need little maintenance and NO dedicated hangar facilities, even for extended engagements. Meanwhile the NR's XJ X-Wings--the BEST NR STARFIGHTERS of the era, require such facilities, do not have the range, require more maintenance, are only as versatile (and perhaps less), are slower, less maneuverable, and only as heavily armed. Where are you seeing that the Chiss craft are inferior?

[DocMoriartty]

Quite the crack smoking you have there.

1. Give me a specific line where it shows a Chiss cap ship. Till you can show me a single one I am not required to believe that any exist.

2. Give me a single line that proves Claw fighters have equal firepower to an X-Wing. As far as I can tell it does not take much power to kill a Coral Ship once you trick its micro blackhole generator, the ships are after all duhhh made of coral.

3. Give me a single line that says a Claw fighter needs less maintenance than an X-Wing.

4. Give me any proof at all which fighter has superior shields. Shields are not as big a deal against the YV then main thing when fighting them is to make sure your shields are not drained exposing your ship. YV fighters as a rule do very poorly damage wise when an enemy fighter can keep its shields up.

5. As I said before a Mig-21 has superior speed and maneuverability than an F-4 and has equal firepower. Please find me someone that will tell me the Mig-21 is a superior fighter.

[Master of Ossus]

Quite the crack smoking you have there.

1. Give me a specific line where it shows a Chiss cap ship. Till you can show me a single one I am not required to believe that any exist.

The fact that starfighters have never been able to conduct an offensive operation without a base of operations proves that capital ships are necessary for the Chiss, who have engaged the Ssi-Ruuvi forces on their own.

2. Give me a single line that proves Claw fighters have equal firepower to an X-Wing. As far as I can tell it does not take much power to kill a Coral Ship once you trick its micro blackhole generator, the ships are after all duhhh made of coral.

So what? If you read Dark Journey, you will find that you are wrong. Kyp Durron, who is used to flying recon missions in an XJ X-Wing, comments of Jag's clawcraft and his wingman's that they have a "pretty impressive arsenal for a pair of scouts" (133). If anything, this indicates that they are more heavily armed than their NR counterparts. They are armed with several laser cannons, torpedoes, and concussion missiles. That is greater than the armament of an XJ X-Wing. Additionally, the laser cannons of the two different starfighters is demonstrated to be of similar power in Rebel Stand, when Jag and Kyp and Jaina are engaging target drones, and their weapons do similar damage. In fact, it appears that Jag's weapons do MORE damage, as they cut the target in half while Jaina's and Kyp's only melt the ends of the drone, but those results are inconclusive at best.

3. Give me a single line that says a Claw fighter needs less maintenance than an X-Wing.

The fact that Jag and his wingmate required a turn-around time of SECONDS after a combat fight and no fewer than FIVE hyperjumps. They hopped out of their starfighters and jumped right back in. Compared to NR starfighters, that is a substantial improvement in maintenance, as the NR's starfighters needed to be maintained frequently (which was Kyp's reason in setting up bases and hangars for his ships, NTM the subject of numerous scenes in which they are forced to modify or adjust their starfighters). The only time Jag has EVER been seen to be maintaining his starfighter is in Rebel Stand, when he adjusts a laser cannon. The Chiss ships were able to act far afield from the Chiss starbases, and without much assistance (if any) from the denizens of the regular Galaxy.

4. Give me any proof at all which fighter has superior shields. Shields are not as big a deal against the YV then main thing when fighting them is to make sure your shields are not drained exposing your ship. YV fighters as a rule do very poorly damage wise when an enemy fighter can keep its shields up.

During the engagement in Rebel Dream with the interdictors, Jag's fighter loses its shields as it has not benefited from the modifications that the NR ships enjoy. Everyone thinks that he is dead, and Jaina is later amazed to see him still flying without his shields a few seconds later. This indicates that, without the shields, a Chiss clawcraft is poorly armored, but with the shields it can withstand at least one or two hits. During that same engagement, Kyp Durron's XJ has its shields overwhelmed and takes damage from a SINGLE HIT! This indicates that the Chiss vessel probably has better shields than an XJ X-Wing.

5. As I said before a Mig-21 has superior speed and maneuverability than an F-4 and has equal firepower. Please find me someone that will tell me the Mig-21 is a superior fighter.

I can't do that, but I can find someone who says something even sillier. He says that an XJ X-Wing is at least as good--and might be slightly superior--when compared with a Chiss clawcraft, despite the Chiss ship's superior or equal maneuverability, firepower, shielding, range, speed, and independence.

[DocMoriartty]

All I see so far is someone desperately trying to extrapolate opinions into facts based on very circumstancial statements.


1. X-Wings repeatedly lauched long ranged assaults without cap-ship support during the rebellion. It played towards their strength and made it next to impossible for the Empire to track them down. So your first statement is typical delusional crap.

2. Kyp's statements mean nothing but the Vong ships carry good firepower for a scout. Anything else is your delusional crap. Beyond that the type of damage inflicted on a target may mean different weapons or it may mean that the NR fliers were smart enough to power down their fucking weapons when firing at drones.

3. Uhhh dude. Bases let your ships refuel AND your crew rewind. Without bases no matter how long your ship can last your crew won't. So saying Kyp set up bases as proof that his ship needs more maintenance is laughable. Try again crack boy.

4. Try English and put down the crackpipe. Your comments about shields make no sense at all.


This debate is over. Your the most pathetic sort of fanboy. You have latched onto the Chiss and your cool alien heroes in SW that you can be cool through. Grow up.

[Master of Ossus]

All I see so far is someone desperately trying to extrapolate opinions into facts based on very circumstancial statements.

LMAO!

1. X-Wings repeatedly lauched long ranged assaults without cap-ship support during the rebellion. It played towards their strength and made it next to impossible for the Empire to track them down. So your first statement is typical delusional crap.

When is this? Do you have a reference? Of course not. That's because they only engaged in long-range operations that involved a SINGLE LONG JUMP, not half-way across the Galaxy. They also avoided attacking Imperial capital ships, and focused on transports (the way a good resistance should have). Moreover, you are being unreasonable. If the Chiss do not have capital ships, they would have had NO way to take and hold the territory that they did. They would have been completely unable to establish bases outside of their territory the way we have observed.

2. Kyp's statements mean nothing but the Vong ships carry good firepower for a scout. Anything else is your delusional crap. Beyond that the type of damage inflicted on a target may mean different weapons or it may mean that the NR fliers were smart enough to power down their fucking weapons when firing at drones.

First of all, Kyp's statement had nothing to do with the YV. I have no idea where the hell you get that. Unfortunately for you, Kyp had been on NUMEROUS scouting missions in his XJ X-Wing, as I pointed out to you before (and you summarily ignored). He had (among other things) scouted the YV held Sernpidel, and found a Worldship being manufactured there. Moreover, the weapons observed on the Chiss clawcraft are equal to or superior than the XJ X-Wings. What part of this do you not understand? Finally, you assume that the NR pilots powered their weapons down in spite of the fact that they MELTED the target drones, but also in spite of the absence of evidence for this. They were sent to engage REAL YV targets while half-way through their target practice, and never mentioned anything like powering their weapons back up to full power. Any attempt to claim that they powered their weapons down places the BoP on YOU to demonstrate that they did, and we see no evidence, whatsoever, for them having done so. Sorry, you lose.

3. Uhhh dude. Bases let your ships refuel AND your crew rewind. Without bases no matter how long your ship can last your crew won't. So saying Kyp set up bases as proof that his ship needs more maintenance is laughable. Try again crack boy.

He said that they were to maintain his starfighters. He had mechanics there, and they were observed maintaining starfighters there. Let's read an extract from Destiny's Way. Moreover, we have observed NUMEROUS occasions with XJ X-Wing requiring maintenance. We have NEVER observed this out of the Chiss craft. Again, the onus is on you to demonstrate that the Chiss clawcraft require significant maintenance, now that I have presented evidence. I can't imagine that you'll find anything, seeing as how I have mentioned the ONLY example of a clawcraft requiring maintenance in the entire NJO. Note that XJ X-Wings are serviced every time that they touch down. BTW, Kyp's bases aren't really good places to unwind, seeing as how there's nothing there for them. In the base Jaina Solo helps set up in Destiny's Way, the base loses lighting and gravity frequently. It's little more than a hangar and a couple of tunnels that double as bunkers. This further demonstrates that the starfighters are more in need of maintenance than their pilots of rest, which is clearly reversed with Chiss clawcraft.

4. Try English and put down the crackpipe. Your comments about shields make no sense at all.

Only if you are a mind-bogglingly moronic jerk with no ability to reason. Okay, let's try this again. We know that Chiss clawcraft shields can withstand at least one hit from the incident shown above. We similarly know that XJ X-Wings cannot withstand one hit. Thus, the Chiss shields are shown to be superior.

This debate is over. Your the most pathetic sort of fanboy. You have latched onto the Chiss and your cool alien heroes in SW that you can be cool through. Grow up.

You really are an idiot, aren't you? You really have no idea what's going on, so you begin by demanding evidence. That's reasonable. Then you go on to completely disregard the evidence that I showed you. That's not reasonable. You then demanded that I disprove your notions, which is completely unreasonable. Grow up.

[His Divine Shadow]

DocMoriartty... try to fucking debate, a slaughter is no fun to see.

*picks up DocMoriartty's guts and gives them back to him*

You might need these.

[Master of Ossus]

Let's review DocMoriarty's posts shall we?

First he comes out and claims that the Chiss have no capital ships. Frankly, this is a laughably stupid assertion seeing as how the Chiss could take and hold territory (which he later admitted that starfighters could not do), but let's take this a step further. He then claims that they were able to engage the Ssi-Ruuk starships and bases with only their clawcraft, which he believes have lower firepower than their NR counterparts. This is quite obviously a self-contradiction. If the Chiss were indeed to have weaker starfighters than the NR's X-Wings, they would not have been able to combat the Ssi-Ruuk capital ships (ref. Truce at Bakura, in which rebel starfighters were incapable of destroying the Ssi-Ruuk cruisers without bombers or capital ships in support roles).

Moreover, he also ignores the burden of proof. He has stated that the Chiss have weaker starfighters, or starfighters that are only as good as those of the NR. I have DEMONSTRATED numerous categories in which Chiss starfighters are superior to the XJ X-Wing--the newest and most modern starfighter available to the NR. His ONLY response is to claim that an advantage in speed and maneuverability is not the sole indicator of a starfighter (the MiG-21 red-herring [and possibly strawman, depending on how you want to interpret it]), but it DOES indicate something about the starfighter. He has admitted that in at least one category the Chiss clawcraft is superior to the NR XJ X-Wing. He MUST now come back and explain that the NR's fighters are better in AT LEAST one other area in order to properly make his case, and he must then also demonstrate that this area is at least as important as maneuverability in order for him to win the debate. Frankly, idiots like this are the worst kind of debater (and I mean that in all seriousness). Not only has Doc Moriarty ignored all of my evidence, claiming that it is irrelevent with no proof (and not even evidence, really, as the MiG-21 is inferior to the F-4 in SEVERAL areas), but he has ALSO ignored demands for evidence.

So...

What's up, Doc? Are you going to put up or shut up?

[Master of Ossus]

Incidentally, Kyp's quote was clearly comparing the armament of a clawcraft to that of scout fighters in the Galaxy proper, indicating that the Chiss clawcraft, at the VERY least, have better firepower than the scouts in the NR. Since those ships were specifically modified to be scouts (hence the new hyperdrives and navicomputers), the Chiss have superior technology in terms of firepower when comparing scouts. What's up, Doc?