1 Eclipse vs. 1 Executor

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-01-22 12:01pm

Their Starfighters in pairs can take out ImpStars to give you some idea.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2003-01-23 11:55pm

DocMoriartty wrote:Really? Have they stated some already that I do not know about?

They already dropped the armament on the ISD-II to 50 TL and 50 HTL.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-01-25 02:20am

HELLO

worse starfighter inflation than X-wing games, at least they had some prior materials to lead them astray with ISD armaments. They explicitly state that six Proton torpedos and a dozen laser blasts could take out a shielded ISD. I'm really starting to regret getting those books too.

Nathan F · Post by **Nathan F** » 2003-01-25 02:45am

The real question is, 'Who is commanding each ship? Is it two commanders with similar abilities?'

Robert Treder · Post by **Robert Treder** » 2003-01-25 06:31am

NF_Utvol wrote:The real question is, 'Who is commanding each ship? Is it two commanders with similar abilities?'

Are you on crack?

When it comes to a duel between two seventeen kilometer-long battleships, I think the individual commander isn't going to make a great deal of difference. With the amount of people and systems he's dealing with, the commander can't possibly have much direct control over specific areas of the ship and be efficient.
And besides, one of the underlying understandings behind comparing different vehicles is to assume parity of crew. Otherwise, it's completely unfair, unless your intent is to compare the crews.

If you need it spelled out for you, let's say that the crews of the ships are competent enough for His Majesty's Navy to have entrusted them with their jobs. This goes for everyone from janitor to gunner to skipper.
The captains of the ships will probably be roughly equal in skill and rank. Given the importance of the ships, both will probably be the flagships of a higher officer, and in that case, the Eclipse will presumably have the higher flag officer. But really there's not much an admiral can do in a 1v1 situation...an admiral's job, contrary to what ST:TMP says, is to command a fleet, not one ship.
Also remember, these aren't starfighters...they're not very tactically maneuverable or variable. There isn't much in the way of tricks up the sleeve that one captain can pull over the other one. Both should have a good understanding of each other's capabilities.

Of course, it could change based on who was in command, for example, if it was me vs. Piett, I'd get my ass kicked, but that's neither here nor there. We're talking ship vs. ship, not captain vs. captain.

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2003-01-25 09:56am

More importantly, we are comparing the ships, not their captains. At least I assumed that parity, to make it a non-issue. If we now start discussing what impact different command would have means we change the focus of this discussion.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2003-01-25 02:07pm

Robert Treder wrote:
NF_Utvol wrote:The real question is, 'Who is commanding each ship? Is it two commanders with similar abilities?'
Are you on crack?

When it comes to a duel between two seventeen kilometer-long battleships, I think the individual commander isn't going to make a great deal of difference. With the amount of people and systems he's dealing with, the commander can't possibly have much direct control over specific areas of the ship and be efficient.<snip>

Unfortunately you are completely incorrect.

The commander of a ship, whether an Admiral or a Lieutenant, is in charge of just THAT ship. His duty is to train, maintain, and fight the ship to the best of his, or her, abilities. A lousy Captain, position not rank, will be unable to manuever the vessel into fighting position, will be unable to bring his weapons to bear at greatest efficiency, and will lose when pitted against a contestant of equal skill.

In this particular case the skill in Captaincy willdetermine whether the Eclipse can bring the mini-SL into play. If the weapon is brought to bear on teh Executor it is all over. However if the Executor is captained by a skilled person then it will remain out of the SL's firing arc and will be able to hammer the Eclispe into submition. So you see this debate isn't about the merits of the two ships (they are both awesome tools of war) but about the commanders and wheteher they would be able to take advantage of the weaknesses of the other vessel (not enough to stop a SL for the Executor and a paucity of secondary weaponry for the Eclipse).

Nathan F · Post by **Nathan F** » 2003-01-25 04:17pm

Yes, the Commanders would make ALL the difference. Each ship has its own strengths and weaknesses, and it would be a good commander that would take advantage of the other ships weaknesses while defending his own.

But, for the sake of argument concerning the ships themselves I think it would be best to say that the commanders are of roughly equal capability. If you study history, you will find that it usually isn't technology, but leadership and the commanders abilities that will decide the outcome of a battle. Take WW2 for instance, Hitler was a tactical nightmare. He made so many blunders in tactics that he spelled his own doom, which was very lucky for us, considering that they were ahead of the allies by leaps and bounds in the technical level.

It was the same way for the war in Vietnam. The powers that be in the United States attempted to run the war from Washington, something that can't effectivly be done. The U.S. did not win that war, even though we were technicologically superiour to the Vietnamese forces in almost every way.

So yes, it does come down to the quality of the commander of each respective ship.

Nathan F · Post by **Nathan F** » 2003-01-25 04:21pm

But, to get back on topic. If the Eclipse could get its SL borne down on the SSD, then it would win hands down. If the SSD was somehow able to maneuver out of the firing arc of the Eclipse, then it could bring its weapons to bare on the rear arc of the Eclipse, which would most likely be less defended than the front. I would also say that the SL of the Eclipse most likely would have a hard time targeting and firing on a maneuvering ship, seeing that it was designed to attack planets. But then again, the DSII's SL was picking off Mon Cals left and right at the Battle of Endor. There are alot of factors to take into play when considering this.

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2003-01-25 04:51pm

The Eclipses's single SL can not be fired off-axis. The SL has another advantage besides firepower though; it has twice the range of heavy TLs.

The Executor can do a 180 in about a minute, and we know it has a sublight acceleration of at least 400 g's, and it's rated at the same speed as the Eclipse. Again, the secondary weaponry of the Eclipse appear to be roughly half as powerful as that of the Executor.

If the Eclipse doesn't hit Executor with the SL first thing, I'm inclined to say that the original ESD wins. It takes one minute to charge after all.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2003-01-25 09:31pm

NF_Utvol wrote:But, to get back on topic. If the Eclipse could get its SL borne down on the SSD, then it would win hands down. If the SSD was somehow able to maneuver out of the firing arc of the Eclipse, then it could bring its weapons to bare on the rear arc of the Eclipse, which would most likely be less defended than the front. I would also say that the SL of the Eclipse most likely would have a hard time targeting and firing on a maneuvering ship, seeing that it was designed to attack planets. But then again, the DSII's SL was picking off Mon Cals left and right at the Battle of Endor. There are alot of factors to take into play when considering this.

Well the DSII had the advantage of off-axis firing which the ESSD design lacks. THis means that so long as the Executor is not immediately forward of the Eclipse then it will be able to close with the other ship and bring its much more powerful (at least 2x and possible an order of magnitude) secondary weaponry into play which should end the fight in favor of the Executor.

beyond hope · Post by **beyond hope** » 2003-01-25 11:10pm

I have the "Starships of the Galaxy" book. It puts the "Super-class Star Destroyer's" length at 8,000 meters. They give it 800 shield points and 1000 hull points compared to the 250 shield points and 730 hull of an ISD II (and even considering the fact that the rules treat it as a mobile battlestation rather than a warship, it's Damage Resistance is 35 compared to the ISD II's 30.) Weapons are described as 250 Turbolasers, 250 Heavy Turbolasers, 250 Assault Concussion Missile Tubes, and 250 Heavy Ion Cannons. To my knowledge WOTC does not currently have published stats for the Eclipse.

In other words, all they did was convert the WEG stats to their system, complete with the 8,000 meter hull length. I'll leave it to the pro-WEG and pro-WOTC factions to decide what to make of that.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-01-25 11:52pm

beyond hope wrote:I have the "Starships of the Galaxy" book. It puts the "Super-class Star Destroyer's" length at 8,000 meters. They give it 800 shield points and 1000 hull points compared to the 250 shield points and 730 hull of an ISD II (and even considering the fact that the rules treat it as a mobile battlestation rather than a warship, it's Damage Resistance is 35 compared to the ISD II's 30.) Weapons are described as 250 Turbolasers, 250 Heavy Turbolasers, 250 Assault Concussion Missile Tubes, and 250 Heavy Ion Cannons. To my knowledge WOTC does not currently have published stats for the Eclipse.

In other words, all they did was convert the WEG stats to their system, complete with the 8,000 meter hull length. I'll leave it to the pro-WEG and pro-WOTC factions to decide what to make of that.

Fuck em both. Idiotic RPG losers with their 'Super-class' and their 8,000m long bullfuck.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-01-26 12:02am

They also converted an abstract method of measuring starship durability into a strictly point based one, and they did it very badly.

Robert Treder · Post by **Robert Treder** » 2003-01-26 04:54am

CmdrWilkens wrote:
Robert Treder wrote:
NF_Utvol wrote:The real question is, 'Who is commanding each ship? Is it two commanders with similar abilities?'
Are you on crack?

When it comes to a duel between two seventeen kilometer-long battleships, I think the individual commander isn't going to make a great deal of difference. With the amount of people and systems he's dealing with, the commander can't possibly have much direct control over specific areas of the ship and be efficient.<snip>
Unfortunately you are completely incorrect.

The commander of a ship, whether an Admiral or a Lieutenant, is in charge of just THAT ship. His duty is to train, maintain, and fight the ship to the best of his, or her, abilities. A lousy Captain, position not rank, will be unable to manuever the vessel into fighting position, will be unable to bring his weapons to bear at greatest efficiency, and will lose when pitted against a contestant of equal skill.

In this particular case the skill in Captaincy willdetermine whether the Eclipse can bring the mini-SL into play. If the weapon is brought to bear on teh Executor it is all over. However if the Executor is captained by a skilled person then it will remain out of the SL's firing arc and will be able to hammer the Eclispe into submition. So you see this debate isn't about the merits of the two ships (they are both awesome tools of war) but about the commanders and wheteher they would be able to take advantage of the weaknesses of the other vessel (not enough to stop a SL for the Executor and a paucity of secondary weaponry for the Eclipse).

Conceded on skipper's roles, but the debate is supposed to be about the two ships, not the two captains. As I said above, parity of crew skill should be assumed in any vehicle vs. vehicle comparison.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2003-01-26 12:24pm

Robert Treder wrote:
CmdrWilkens wrote: Unfortunately you are completely incorrect.

The commander of a ship, whether an Admiral or a Lieutenant, is in charge of just THAT ship. His duty is to train, maintain, and fight the ship to the best of his, or her, abilities. A lousy Captain, position not rank, will be unable to manuever the vessel into fighting position, will be unable to bring his weapons to bear at greatest efficiency, and will lose when pitted against a contestant of equal skill.

In this particular case the skill in Captaincy willdetermine whether the Eclipse can bring the mini-SL into play. If the weapon is brought to bear on teh Executor it is all over. However if the Executor is captained by a skilled person then it will remain out of the SL's firing arc and will be able to hammer the Eclispe into submition. So you see this debate isn't about the merits of the two ships (they are both awesome tools of war) but about the commanders and wheteher they would be able to take advantage of the weaknesses of the other vessel (not enough to stop a SL for the Executor and a paucity of secondary weaponry for the Eclipse).
Conceded on skipper's roles, but the debate is supposed to be about the two ships, not the two captains. As I said above, parity of crew skill should be assumed in any vehicle vs. vehicle comparison.

Which leads to the conclusion, as has been obvious I think for a while, that so long as the Executor remains out of the SL's firing arc it wins.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-01-26 06:46pm

How likely is that though, the Eclipse has the ability to prevent any microjumps by the Executor with its gravwell generators. Micro jump away to get distance, turn around, put a grav well on the Executor to keep it from evading, and engage from long range to decrease its chance of successfully evading.

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2003-01-26 07:48pm

consequences wrote:How likely is that though, the Eclipse has the ability to prevent any microjumps by the Executor with its gravwell generators. Micro jump away to get distance, turn around, put a grav well on the Executor to keep it from evading, and engage from long range to decrease its chance of successfully evading.

Microjump, "a few minutes". Let's say 2.
Turning around, 2 minutes.
Activate grav wells, also two minutes but in the same time frame.

That's 4 minutes minimum worth of maneuvering. If we don't expect the Executor to sit still during that time, chances are that either it jumps away (if the captain decides the battle is unfavourable), or have already begun toasting the Eclipse. They have just the same speed, both sublight and hyperdrive.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2003-01-27 12:18am

consequences wrote:How likely is that though, the Eclipse has the ability to prevent any microjumps by the Executor with its gravwell generators. Micro jump away to get distance, turn around, put a grav well on the Executor to keep it from evading, and engage from long range to decrease its chance of successfully evading.

However with the timeframe needed to power down and power back up the gravwell generators you incur a huge time penalty during which the Executor actually has greater freedom of movement. As in many situations running like that is merely attempting to prolong the defeat in hopes of snatching victory from its jaws.

Alnilam · Post by **Alnilam** » 2003-01-29 05:08am

Has one nasty superlaser,mighty shields (has the Eclipse better shields than the Executor?.Let me know),and probably larguer firepower (in "Conquest" we enjoyed seeing how she destroyed Borg Cubes and more Borg Cubes

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2003-01-29 08:20pm

Alnilam wrote:Has one nasty superlaser,mighty shields (has the Eclipse better shields than the Executor?.Let me know),and probably larguer firepower (in "Conquest" we enjoyed seeing how she destroyed Borg Cubes and more Borg Cubes

The Eclipse probably has stronger shields than the Executor but not by more than a few times over at absolute most. However the secondary weapons on the Eclipse (non-SL ones) are VASTLY inferior to the weaponry of the Executor. Even in a sheer numbers game just taking the WEG numbers (and doubling them to get an Executor of roughly correct length) would yield an Executor with as many Heavy TLs as the Eclispe has Medium TLs.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

1 Eclipse vs. 1 Executor

Whic one wins?

The Eclipse,of course...

Re: The Eclipse,of course...