What went wrong with the new trilogy?

[Warsie]

Really, does it matter?

well, I like ships so...

Victory Class Star Destroyers were a purely EU based creation so people for games had something to pit the rebels against instead of ISD constantly.

They were based off of ISDs though, and it would make more sense in a way to have a 'bridge' between the trilogies (in XWA, there are no Venators. If they had Victories in Ep 3, it would at least be somewhat of a bridge.

Doesn't it seem weird that these ships were supposedly in the CW and you don't see them in Eps 2-3.

As for TIEs, not really. They were an Imperial symbol, having them be a Republic Symbol is just pointless, they at least tried new craft.

IIRC, the Old Republic had TIEs in the CW, and there's this. The OR TIEs were upgraded/new version researched and that was expensive.
http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/comics ... rtant1.jpg

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

For one, the characters just didn't feel endearing. In the Original series, you have the classic archetypes all ready to go, but Han Solo, Luke and Leia, etc. are all characters that you get attached to. I felt none of that in TPM or AotC. Now, that changed in RotS. I could feel the brotherly love of Obi-Wan and the conflicted nature of Anakin, I could finally sympathize, and so the duel on Mustafar became the only really emotional part of the entire prequel trilogy.

Also, the special effects. Yes, they were grandiose, yes, they were imaginative, yes, they were awesome, but they still didn't trap me the way the Original trilogy's sets did. Mos Eisley felt lived in, run-down, criminal, quiet. Mos Espa felt like a bunch of characters thrown together for a scene. When Imperial Star Destroyers loomed across the screen, you knew something was going down. I never had any sense of the same sense of, I dunno, gravitas, until the beginning of RotS, when you see the two lone ships gliding over the surface of the Venator, and it goes on longer, and longer, until you finally look over the gap, and it's... chaos, like a desperate, crazy battle over Coruscant. Very cool. Then they spend 10 minutes on retarded buzz droids. Blegh!

[Shroom Man 777]

What's up with Victories? An ISD with flappy wing things? No thanks. The Venators were way better.

[VT-16]

Many EU authors would deny that, but the fact that Lucas' prequels frequently confounded the expectations of WEG fanboys is proof positive that all of the WEG critics were right all along.

The interesting thing is that both the Venator and the Victory share elements with the early concept art for the Imperial-class Star Destroyer, so we have two takes on it and two different designs that eventually lead way to the Imperial.

I also like the fact that in the very first pre-war event of the films, we see vessels that easily dwarf an Imperial-class destroyer. That made me lol when I read the old Dreadnaught-class bios.

For one, the characters just didn't feel endearing. In the Original series, you have the classic archetypes all ready to go

Besides Hayden and Natalie, I had little to no problem liking most of the other main characters in the PT, and I sure as hell didn't look for "archetypes" either in this trilogy or the first. Characters suck whether they're archetypes or not.

Also, the special effects. Yes, they were grandiose, yes, they were imaginative, yes, they were awesome, but they still didn't trap me the way the Original trilogy's sets did.

Mos Eisley looked like a town in the Middle-East, Cloud City was a bunch of white corridors whenever the camera wasn't on Luke and Vader's fight. They used footage from temples in S-A for the Yavin ground shots. I'm sorry if I'm no longer enthralled by that.

Very cool. Then they spend 10 minutes on retarded buzz droids. Blegh!

Seeing Anakin blast more fighters might have been good, but I also like him proving himself with a difficult fighter-rescue, since it also shows his piloting skills.

[Ghost Rider]

Really, does it matter?

well, I like ships so...

Which matters, what again to Lucas' movie?

Victory Class Star Destroyers were a purely EU based creation so people for games had something to pit the rebels against instead of ISD constantly.

They were based off of ISDs though, and it would make more sense in a way to have a 'bridge' between the trilogies (in XWA, there are no Venators. If they had Victories in Ep 3, it would at least be somewhat of a bridge.

Doesn't it seem weird that these ships were supposedly in the CW and you don't see them in Eps 2-3.

How so?

All you've done is reinforce that they were there for the EU who couldn't think of producing something other then a dumber looking ISD.

Sorry, the EU can influence some parts, but all of it? Fuck that noise, the Expanded Universe has produced far more shit then gems.

As for TIEs, not really. They were an Imperial symbol, having them be a Republic Symbol is just pointless, they at least tried new craft.

IIRC, the Old Republic had TIEs in the CW, and there's this. The OR TIEs were upgraded/new version researched and that was expensive.
http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/comics ... rtant1.jpg

And that's solely from the EU. When talking what George should do for the movies, I'd rather he avoid the EU given it falls under the syndrome of far too many cooks making a meal.

So other then your personal preference, any logical reason why Lucas should've done these things?

[CaptHawkeye]

I agree fully. Take the Victory and Venator for example. To me, the Victory has NEVER looked like an OLDER Star Destroyer. It's always looked like a newer, wanked out version of an ISD. The first time I saw it I thought it was a newer type of Star Destroyer until I saw size comparisons. That or it was some kind of specialist model like the interdictor.

Despite community requests to see the Victory, we got instead the visually superior Venator. Which actually does succed in looking cool like an ISD, yet still comes off as an older model that does a good job in portraying the evolution of the ship line.

Lucasfilm outdid the EU in both coolness and continuity, as it usually does.

[NecronLord]

Personally, I enjoyed all the prequels. A great many of the actors were particularly notherworthy, and did excellent jobs of portraying interesting characters; offhand, Count Dooku, Qui Gon Jinn, Obi-Wan, Palpatine, C3PO, R2-D2, all were on top form, and (those that weren't in the OT) are among my favourites in any of the movies.

I liked the designs of the space doughnuts, too. They could have used being a bit more battered looking, but other than that, they seemed to be neat enough. More visual diversity in the Republic fleet would have been nice, but it's hardly any reason to dislike the films - particularly as making models for films like those takes an immense amount of effort. The confedate fleet was satisfyingly diverse in the last film, though.

Also, I enjoyed the 'American Civil War' angle of the films. It was unexpected, and quite pleasing.

The only droids that really annoyed me were the Super Battle Droids in the last film, and then only because their voices broke me out of suspension of disbelief, especially as they were done so much better (which is to say, more intimidating) in 'Star Wars Battlefront.' The droidekas, Vulture droids, and various other bits and pieces of hardware depicted were all visually interesting, and I couldn't care a jot for their impracticality - the OT after all, gave us chicken walkers, AT-ATs and a 'city sprawl' poking out through the armour of the Imperial Flagship.

I even liked the lancer droids in the cartoon.

[CaptHawkeye]

I even liked the lancer droids in the cartoon.

That's kind of where I drew a line. That scene made me stop watching Clone Wars for a while. I mean, come on, jousting droids on speeders that can destroy SPHA-T's and lift AT-TEs off of their feet? I understand Durge wankery was needed to make him a convincing villain, but THAT?

[NecronLord]

That's kind of where I drew a line. That scene made me stop watching Clone Wars for a while. I mean, come on, jousting droids on speeders that can destroy SPHA-T's and lift AT-TEs off of their feet? I understand Durge wankery was needed to make him a convincing villain, but THAT?

Clearly the SPHA-T's had one hell of a glass jaw, not that surprising, given that they were artillery. And the whole thing was tremendously stylised. Remember the giant Confederacy stamping machine? And Mace Windu singlehandedly defeating an entire droid batallion?

But yah, chickenwalkers and AT-TEs were plenty silly on their own, to my mind. I long ago stopped bothering if Star Wars stuff was practical.

Also, as I recall, that scene introduced Obi-Wan in armour, which was neat.

[Warsie]

Which matters, what again to Lucas' movie?

nothing, I admit.

How so?

All you've done is reinforce that they were there for the EU who couldn't think of producing something other then a dumber looking ISD.

Sorry, the EU can influence some parts, but all of it? Fuck that noise, the Expanded Universe has produced far more shit then gems.

right, I didn't say the EU had to fit everything.

And that's solely from the EU. When talking what George should do for the movies, I'd rather he avoid the EU given it falls under the syndrome of far too many cooks making a meal.

So other then your personal preference, any logical reason why Lucas should've done these things?

The only reason for the ships is continuity, and 'fitting in'. Other than that, I have no real reason.

Like i said, isn't it weird that you see no Venators in the novels. Thankfully they're adding in Rebel Recusants and such, so my point isn't so strong.

So you beat me.

[VT-16]

I mean, come on, jousting droids on speeders that can destroy SPHA-T's and lift AT-TEs off of their feet?

Only Durge did the latter, and he's a pumped up weirdass alien. And he only did the front of the tank.

As ambush weaponry, the lancer droids weren't too bad. They were swift and planted most of their explosives before the rows of artillery could react to their presence.

[Shroom Man 777]

Hrm. I guess another thing could be, I dunno, too many things happening and too many places.

ANH had a simple progression. Tattooine, Death Star, Yavin, Blow up Death Star.

ESB had...Hoth, Dagobah/Asteroid, Cloud City.

ROTJ had Tattooine, Dagobah, and then the attack.

I mean, sure, part of the PT was the mysterious political muck-abouts of Palpatine and the ambiguity, but the OT benefited from its straight-to-the-pointness, clarity and coherence.

[lPeregrine]

Why they failed:

1) AWFUL lack of editing. Seriously, even the 'best' of them had this problem. Watching ROTS for the second or third time was a chore, scenes just drag on too long with too much awful dialogue and no sense of direction. Half the time I was sitting there looking at the clock and wondering how much more of it I had to sit through. I don't know (or care) who to blame for this, but better attention to polish and editing would've done a lot to salvage the prequels.

2) Completely different visual style. The OT movies had amazing design, a dirty, "lived-in" feel that still inspires artists. Of course this is due in large part to the fact that the OT sets/ships/etc were real objects and places. On the other hand, with the prequels we get over-saturated colors, underwhelming designs, and a general over-reliance on flashy CG effects. Compare the ships, compare the lightsaber duels, compare pretty much anything and you find a heavy emphasis on flash over realism. While it's arguable that it's a legitimate style choice, it just doesn't feel like Star Wars.

3) Too many pointless toy-commercial elements. Why did they bring back Boba Fett, a minor background character? Because it would sell more toys. Why did they add the entire Kashyyk battle? An ARMY of new toys. Who cares if it's a pointless diversion that adds nothing to the story, the marketing department needs it!

4) Kind of related to #3, too young a target audience. There are just too many elements aimed at the younger audience that the rest of us find painfully bad. Again, it's a legitimate choice (though kind of a betrayal to the loyal fans), but perfectly relevant to the question of why this community would consider the prequels a failure.

[Stark]

Clearly the SPHA-T's had one hell of a glass jaw, not that surprising, given that they were artillery. And the whole thing was tremendously stylised. Remember the giant Confederacy stamping machine? And Mace Windu singlehandedly defeating an entire droid batallion?

Remember, 40k can do space cavalry but it's 'stupid' when Star Wars does it. Even if it's against arty with big glass cockpits and very light local defence. The only part of that scene that struck me as strange was the waiting Republic cavalry - are the lances standard equipment for speeders?

But yah, chickenwalkers and AT-TEs were plenty silly on their own, to my mind. I long ago stopped bothering if Star Wars stuff was practical.

That walking open APC thing ... well.

Also, as I recall, that scene introduced Obi-Wan in armour, which was neat.

And crushing weapons, deflective projectiles, and more awesome commando action.

[VT-16]

Completely different visual style. The OT movies had amazing design, a dirty, "lived-in" feel that still inspires artists. Of course this is due in large part to the fact that the OT sets/ships/etc were real objects and places.

So was most of Naboo. It basically looked like a renaissance planet, which is logical, since its interior shots were done in Italy. And lets not forget that Coruscant was heavily based on Ralph McQuarrie's original designs. Come to think of it, so was Utapau's sinkhole cities and Geonosis's hive towers (both have predecessors in possible Alderaanian city-concepts). And an Alderaanian concept art was recycled for a shot of Coruscant at the end of AOTC (the last establishing shot of the Jedi Temple at dawn).

[NecronLord]

Remember, 40k can do space cavalry but it's 'stupid' when Star Wars does it.

40K's space cavalry is also impractical. What makes you think I say 40K's stuff - gothic space cathedrals covered in glass, an even flimsier chicken walker, and actual horses on the battlefield in the age of the laser - is any better? Hell, 40K has just as many stupid looking mechas, pound per pound, as Star Wars. And it has WW1 tanks into the bargin.

[PainRack]

2) Completely different visual style. The OT movies had amazing design, a dirty, "lived-in" feel that still inspires artists. Of course this is due in large part to the fact that the OT sets/ships/etc were real objects and places. On the other hand, with the prequels we get over-saturated colors, underwhelming designs, and a general over-reliance on flashy CG effects. Compare the ships, compare the lightsaber duels, compare pretty much anything and you find a heavy emphasis on flash over realism. While it's arguable that it's a legitimate style choice, it just doesn't feel like Star Wars.

I was under the impression that this was deliberate. The whole point of the PT was to show the "Good Old Days", where artistic style triumphs over the "industrial" and used looks of the Empire. The Nubian cruiser in the TPM ICS entry deliberately stated this out loud IIRC.

As ambush weaponry, the lancer droids weren't too bad. They were swift and planted most of their explosives before the rows of artillery could react to their presence.

The Clone war games on the site however introduced lancer droids fighting against clones lancers............
On one hand, I celebrate the campiness, but on the other, I don't think kids remember Flash Gordon and the Legion of Space.

[Jade Falcon]

A question regarding the larger wheeled vehicles we see the Clone Troopers using in ROTS.

The West End Games Imperial Sourcebook has a vehicle that looks the same, its called the "Juggernaut", I'm not sure if its the same name in ROTS, but the IS book said it was a forerunner of the AT-AT and was replaced in front line service by it. Was the Juggernaut an original concept drawing for the AT-AT way back in the days of ESB or was it a WEG design brought to life.

[VT-16]

The Juggernaut was a Joe Johnston design originally for ESB. :)

The big problem with the Juggernauts, is that their big scene takes place during the Order 66 sequence and therefore has to share the space with the deaths of many prominent Jedi as well as Yoda's narrow escape.

They thunder through the frontlines, spewing laser fire and missiles. I think they showed some singular characteristics alongside the more famous AT-AT walkers, but they could have been shown a bit more.

[FOG3]

Editting, it all came down to editting that just wasn't up to snuff. AotC for example IMHO would have been greatly enhanced by merely switching out the in temple scene with the walking into the hangar and taking off scene.

[MKSheppard]

Expecting the prequels to fulfill some EU idea of the Clone Wars is as bad as any other 'nerd-chic' reason to hate them.

Except that for what, 10-15-20 years, the EU was pretty much Star Wars. While some ideas were undoubtly stupid (anything by KJA should be stricken from the list posthaste); a lot, especially by Zahn and WEG was quite good, and really did expand a lot on the universe.

I mean, they already put in the Juggernaut, so why not have an Victory Star Destroyer show up as it's been explictly mentioned in quite a lot of literature as a "clone wars era" ship. At the least it would have been nice to have a short cameo by Gilead Pellaeon as a young lieutenant or something on the bridge of a Republic warship.

[MKSheppard]

Also, the Clonetrooper idea pretty much shit over a lot of people's impressions of Stormtroopers and was pretty childish when you think about it in retrospect.

"We're going to make them all be clones of the galaxy's most DANGEROUS bounty hunter!"

"Also, we only made about 200,000 of the first batch; with a million more on the way. Hope you're not planning on any long extensive campaigns, kthx."

While in retrospect, you really did need the Clonetroopers in order for flawless execution and immediate execution of Order 66, Lucas screwed up big time by making the Clonetroopers essentially the Republic's only fighting force rather than an elite crack unit.

I mean, why do you even NEED clonetroopers to man the guns and torpedoes on your Venators?

Even ANH managed to have this done much better with specialist unique troops manning the death star's guns, rather than using stormtroopers.

Let's not even get into the absurdity of using a BOUNTY HUNTER as a template for your clone starfighter pilots....

[Stark]

's space cavalry is also impractical. What makes you think I say 40K's stuff - gothic space cathedrals covered in glass, an even flimsier chicken walker, and actual horses on the battlefield in the age of the laser - is any better? Hell, 40K has just as many stupid looking mechas, pound per pound, as Star Wars. And it has WW1 tanks into the bargin.

Oh that wasn't directed at you - I simply see constant 'zomg that took me right out of the universe wtf so stupid speeder guys with lancers instant fail lololololol' and never, ever see anything beyond 'wow, cavalry in the 41st century must be for primitive planets or something' with regards to 40k.

And I'm sorry Shep, but I read some of the early EU stuff and it's terrible. I can't say anything but 'I'm glad it's dead'. If they at least tried some research I might have had more sympathy - like holy shit, actually look at the ISD model etc.

[Darth Wong]

IMO, identifying plot holes or dumb ideas in the prequels is barking up the wrong tree. There are plenty of movies out there which the geek community was furiously wanking off to which had plot holes and dumb writing decisions galore, like The Matrix (before the sequels sunk the franchise). The geek community has a long history of being very forgiving of really bad plot holes, as long as their egos are stroked and they get some pseudo-masculine compensatory hero-worship to squeeze their little peckers to. The Star Wars prequels didn't do that. Not enough faux-significance, not enough celebration of bad-assery.

Think about it, what does the geek community want more than anything? To be taken seriously. Just look at the way they're always trying to pretend that their favourite forms of entertainment carry some deeper meaning? Some major sociological message? I'm fucking sick and tired of hearing sci-fi fans talk about how their favourite shows or movies "really tell us something about the human condition". They desperately want to be taken seriously by the "real" entertainment community, and it will never happen anyway.

The single biggest "failure" of the Star Wars prequels was their failure to be anything more than a simple entertainment sci-fi story. The geek community wanted the prequels to validate their geekhood somehow, by being the next "Macbeth".

[Warsie]

I mean, why do you even NEED clonetroopers to man the guns and torpedoes on your Venators?

Someone said that they could've been gunners who simply donned Clonetrooper uniform for protection from the vacuum. Also, that's only one Venator; who knew what the other ships were like. IIRC, the Republic did recruit to build its' navy and did absorb other planetary/sector navies; maybe they were reassigned?

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