Myth of Misogyny in the Galactic Empire

[Cao Cao]

There is also a policy of discrimination against women in the Rebel Alliance military.I cite the movies as clear evidence. Counter this, please.

Please provide the quote from the films stating the existence of this policy. Oh wait. There isn't one.

As you're no doubt aware, one of the policies for this board established by Darth Wong is that, although you are entitled to personally be a 'movie purist', you cannot apply this standard to a debate which is not 'movies only'. As such, you're conclusion is invalid. Even if this were a movies only debate, you STILL wouldn't be able to prove any discrimination, although neither would I. This is because the movies only INDICATE discrimination; there is absolutely nothing there to PROVE it. If I were relying on film evidence alone, my position would be untenable, as I would have no proof.

However, some years ago, an ingenious little idea known as 'The EU' was started. This creation is lower in canon than the films, however anything not contradicted must stand as canon. The policy of discrimination in the Imperial military is explicitly laid down in various sources, and as this is not contradicted by the films, it stands. There is absolutely nothing whatsoever on Rebel discrimination, and as such, the notion fails.

Way to miss the point.
The evidence from the movies I cite is the same "evidence" hack EU authors used to determine that the Empire had an official discrimination policy against women and aliens. My position is not that of a movie-purist. I am simply saying that the same logic the EU applied to the Empire can be applied to the Rebellion. But they don't. Hence it doesn't make sense.
Explanations that do fit the movies tend to involve long-standing prejudice in the Core Worlds. Which would be part of the Republic. And logically part of both Empire and Rebellion. However, the whole Non-huMan angle is pure tripe.

The films don't contradict 3 million clones either. But common sense does, hence why they are rejected. Same applies here.

Bullshit. Oh, so the 3 million clones number is rejected purely because we decided we didn't like it?

No, sparky. That's why I said that both contradict common sense, not personal preference.

No, there has been great effort put into proving why it can't stand, using evidence from several higher sources such as the ICS, and the films themselves. 3 million soldiers cannot fight a war on the scale of the Clone Wars; it's just not possible. The Imperial military can maintain a policy of misogyny, because, funnily enough, that IS possible. Not only that, this concept is verified throughout many sources in the entire EU. The 3 million number, on the other hand, is not.

It is possible for the Imperial military to have a degree of misogynism and racism in it. But it's also possible this exists within the Rebellion/Republic too. And Palpatine, the Emperor, was shown in the movies repeatedly forming close ties with aliens.
Basically the ridiculous Non-huMan policy is what's not possible because the movies DO contradict that.

The 3 million number is not possible given the vast amounts of contradictory information. It does not stand.
The discriminatory policy IS possible based on the considerable amount of supporting evidence, and the lack of contradictory evidence. It stands.

The discriminatory policy is based on biased interpretation of movie evidence. It does not stand at all.

[Lazarus]

The discriminatory policy is based on biased interpretation of movie evidence. It does not stand at all.

Here's a headline for you: Canon rules don't give a flying fuck what you think about the EU authors or where they got their ideas from. The discrimination is established by the EU, it is not contradicted, it is supported across the EU and from a simple look at the films themselves. It stands. Live with it.

Clearly the argument you're making here is based on 'I don't like the rules of canon, I substitute my own. They go something like this: If I personally don't like a source, and believe it isn't reasonable, it's not canon.'

By the same reasoning, the EU authors have clearly given Yuuzhan Vong bioweaponry power beyond what is reasonable, for parity with SW civs weaponry. There's nothing in the movies about them, so therefore the NJO isn't canon, because I personally don't think it's reasonable, and the authors all pulled the ideas out of their arses.

[Cao Cao]

The mere fact that the Empire in the movies is really little different from the Rebellion in terms of personnel contradicts the EU. Don't you get it. It demonstrates that any discrimination is not caused by or unique to the Empire. The movies say it isn't. The EU says it is. The EU is therefore wrong, like it or not.

[Steel]

The mere fact that the Empire in the movies is really little different from the Rebellion in terms of personnel contradicts the EU. Don't you get it. It demonstrates that any discrimination is not caused by or unique to the Empire. The movies say it isn't. The EU says it is. The EU is therefore wrong, like it or not.

Oh for fucks sake you're retarded.

OUT OF UNIVERSE yes the EU authors deicded that the the empire had to be completely evil and that they would say that there was an institutional policy of sexism racism etc.

IN UNIVERSE We have the situation that there is stated to be a policy of discrimination against women in the imperial military, and the films do not contradict this. Watching the films certainly does not convince any rational viewer that such a policy does not exist as out of all the personnel there is not one female, although the films do not and can not PROVE this policy exists.

Now i dont do the whole debating thing often so i didnt say this earlier, but: Bringing up the issue of rebel or republic discrimination is a colossal RED HERRING in a debate about IMPERIAL policy.

You cant say that the EU authors are wrong based on the fact you dont like what they wrote and no evidence. I dont care if you dont like the fact that the EU authors tiny minds latched onto a concept and fitted it in, there is not sufficient (read: any) evidence from the films to dismiss it. Whether or not it would be logical for them to conclude that there was a similar policy for the rebellion is irrelevant, they did not conclude that, and again there is not sufficient evidence for us to show that this is wrong.

The reason the 3 million clones number is rejected is that we actually fucking SEE the evidence that there are more than 3 million clones in the films and other instances in the canon with all the naval assets alone!

[Lazarus]

The mere fact that the Empire in the movies is really little different from the Rebellion in terms of personnel contradicts the EU. Don't you get it. It demonstrates that any discrimination is not caused by or unique to the Empire. The movies say it isn't. The EU says it is. The EU is therefore wrong, like it or not.

I'm afraid that's not how it works. Perhaps you need some education in the rules of canon, I'd recommend reading the board policy, it presents what is clearly a difficult subject for you to grasp in simple terms. Maybe some pictures and big writing might help too.



The movies do not say ANYTHING on the subject. Alone, they prove NOTHING. At most, they suggest there there may be a reason for the lack of women in Imperial service, and yes, perhaps in Rebel too. However, there is NOTHING in the EU which states there was any form of discrimination in the Alliance, and as such, there is no proof of any kind. There is, however, evidence which proves that there was discrimination in the Imperial military, and this is NOT contradicted by the films or, as I have shown above, the EU. As such, it stands.

The reason for the EU writers choice is utterly irrelevant - as other discussions on this board have repeatedly stated, author or creators intent has nothing to do with what is presented in-universe. That George Lucas simply wanted 'a big explosion' for Alderaan's death in no way defeats the argument about the huge power the superlaser must have had to create such an explosion. It's irrelevant.

There is absolutely no way this line of argument can go anywhere, because you are in direct contradiction of the rules of canon. If you want to start a debate on why they should be changed, go ahead, but it won't alter the fact that you are, quite simply, wrong.

[Cao Cao]

I am speaking of logical deduction, something which seems to have escaped you. Not author's intent. The movies say nothing either way, apart from strongly hinting that Palpatine is an equal opportunity despot. Which alone goes against the EU.

I will state this again, NOTHING in the movies contradicts 3 million clones no matter how much you may say they do. Just as nothing contradicts discrimination. Only your wishful thinking makes these issues different.
3 million clones is a false interpretation of "1 million units and another 2 million on the way" just as "Non-huMan" is a false interpretation of no women/aliens in the movies.
Both must be rejected not because they're EU, not because we don't like them, but because they violate common sense.

In universe, this can be dismissed as Rebel propaganda anyway, as most of the EU "evidence" comes from Rebel/biased sources.

[Steel]

I will state this again, NOTHING in the movies contradicts 3 million clones.

Did we watch the same films? I think i saw an empire of a million worlds, that spanned a galaxy. In the films i saw there were perhaps hundreds of sieges in the outer rim worlds and major land battles in the core worlds each of which could potentially have used more than 3 million clones. We see evidence of more ships and transports than a mere 3 million clones could ever have used.

THAT is why we reject the notion of 3 million clones, as there is actual evidence to suggest that it is bullshit.

This issue is AGAIN IRRELEVANT to the issue of discrimination in the imperial military. You yourself say that nothing in the films contradicts discrimination, well done for finally getting that into your head. Now see that the issues of

discrimination (which means unfair, unequal treatment NOT that there arent any) against women in the imperial military

and

not enough troops to occupy and garrison a large earth country fighting a galactic scale war with thousands of ships (witnessed in ROTS) are totally fucking different!

[Cao Cao]

And do we automatically know that every single crewman on those ships are clones? No. Hence why the movies by themselves don't contradict three million clones. Of course, when we look into the movies and the galactic scale war then 3 million clones are bullshit.
Just as when I look into the movies, a policy of deliberate discrimination is also bullshit.
But this does not change the fact that THE MOVIES BY THEMSELVES don't contradict 3 million clones.

[Steel]

Of course, when we look into the movies and the galactic scale war then 3 million clones are bullshit.

Is directly contradictory to:

But this does not change the fact that THE MOVIES BY THEMSELVES don't contradict 3 million clones.

Can you not see the difference in the situation? Having only 3 million clones would make the war depicted in the films impossible, (especially as per atoc the separatists can produce a staggering number of droids from a single assembly line, enough to overwhelm the clones even with 200:1 wank advantages... blah blah blah and many other reasons that everyone on the board is familiar with.) 3 million clones is LOGICALLY impossible and so there is a case for saying it is a contradiction.

Having discrimination against women is not impossible from the films. Your opinion that there is no discrimination is totally fucking irelevant! Just at bringing up clone troops is to this discussion.

[Cao Cao]

Can you not see the difference in the situation? Having only 3 million clones would make the war depicted in the films impossible, (especially as per atoc the separatists can produce a staggering number of droids from a single assembly line, enough to overwhelm the clones even with 200:1 wank advantages... blah blah blah and many other reasons that everyone on the board is familiar with.) 3 million clones is LOGICALLY impossible and so there is a case for saying it is a contradiction.

Having discrimination against women is not impossible from the films. Your opinion that there is no discrimination is totally fucking irelevant! Just at bringing up clone troops is to this discussion.

You don't get it do you? We regard the wars in Star Wars as galactic scale, because that's common sense.
An EU author saw the SAME wars in Star Wars and concluded that they were "brushfires" and talk of the galaxy burning under fierce battles was "propaganda". The movies by themselves do not inherently contradict that. And that is my point. Simply because an EU author says it is so, and the movies are neutral on the subject it does not mean we can't question it.

Edit: For an example of how "non-huMan" violates common sense, think about this: Discrimination breeds resistance. The oppressed become unhappy and rise up. The Rebellion fights against the Empire. If there was truly an Imperial-specific policy of discrimination, why are there not tons of women and aliens fighting in the Rebellion in the movies? And I mean more than one token female (which I've never noticed so can't confirm) and black guy in the background and Mon Cals who bought their way in with a fleet of capital ships which only they can use.

[Isolder74]

well there are at least 3 females seen in the Command center of the Rebel Echo Base in Empire(And they are all not Leia)

One at the sensors, one at Ion control consol and one at communications. Or did you only see Leia every time there was a pretty face on the screen?

[Kartr_Kana]

My to cents, since i'm overseas on deployment I dont have any of my sourcebooks/novels/etc. So from memory
TESB we see females working in the command center, i'd have to watch it again to see if there was any other females in the movies.

Second Daala/Tarkin had an officer thrown out an air lock for saying (IIRC) that the only reason she was in command was because she was sleeping with him.

As for Mara in TTT that was during the empire of Thrawn when he was relaxing the discriminator policies, also after Isard and Daala interestingly enough.

There is a discriminatory policy against females and aliens and its due to COMPNOR, its cannon. Its not saying that Non-HuMans aren't allowed its just not equal opportunity. The instances cited are mostly Imperial Remenant or low ranking, both of which are irrelevent to this argument. Remanent doesnt discriminate, they can't, low level personnel are allowed by the term discriminated.

The roots of this discrimination can be found in Palpentines backers, Kuat, Sienar, and other human run corperations, while his enemys were the alien mega corps. The backer always gets a say in policy and they wouldnt want alien competiters so they would make it as hard as possible for any to rise up. Another factor (and this applies the Rebels as well) is that it is easier to supply the dietary needs of on race then a multitude of races. Humans adapt to wide, wide range of climates, will put with all sorts of deprivations and have nimble fingers and minds which allow them to create/use tools that other races might not be able to. Also the human poplulation is by far the largest percentage of the galaxy.

As for females, well the first army of the GE was almost entirly clones, with the exception of the rimsoos and senior commanders. A sort of mens club only could have been built in the minds of the officer corps. With the problems women in the military can cause (logistically and disciplinary) they would have been reluctant to open up to the other sex.

anyway my two cents

(you beat me to the Hoth scene Isolder)

[Cao Cao]

well there are at least 3 females seen in the Command center of the Rebel Echo Base in Empire(And they are all not Leia)

One at the sensors, one at Ion control consol and one at communications. Or did you only see Leia every time there was a pretty face on the screen?

I speak of military personnel, i.e. pilots and soldiers. If Lazarus can dismiss female members of Imperial intelligence, I can sure as hell dismiss glorified telephone operators.

[Lazarus]

The movies by themselves do not inherently contradict that.

Oh ok, fine, so the Death Star isn't 900km diameter, because it's not immediately obvious or explicitly stated? Just because you have to look a little deeper for something doesn't count it out as being backed up by the films. The 3 million quote IS contradicted by the films, as Steel has said, in the same way as those who claimed the DS was some piddly small size are contradicted.

Simply because an EU author says it is so, and the movies are neutral on the subject it does not mean we can't question it.

No, but as has been stated here and in god knows how many anti-3 million threads, the movies are NOT neutral, they contradict it. The movies are, however, neutral on discrimination, and as such the (far more widespread) evidence for it stands. You've just stated the rules of canon there: If the EU says it is so, and it is not contradicted by a higher canon, it is true. That's basic principles, upon which the entire SW universe is based.

You are contradicting the rules of canon and you're argument is inherently flawed. The rules don't give a shit what you think about sources - they're the rules. Unless you can provide evidence from the films which contradicts the discrimination evidence (in the same way as much evidence has been found to contradict the 3 million number), you fail. End of.

[Lazarus]

I speak of military personnel, i.e. pilots and soldiers. If Lazarus can dismiss female members of Imperial intelligence, I can sure as hell dismiss glorified telephone operators.

Please read my posts before deciding what you'd prefer I'd have said. I stated in my review of examples post that although I'm not convinced that Intelligence is a part of the military in the same way as the Army and Navy are, I wasn't going to argue the point because I'm not sure either way.

The Alliance isn't a properly organised military force, those women are 'military personnel' just as much as the soldiers, hangar operators, pilots etc are.

[Cao Cao]

You are contradicting the rules of canon and you're argument is inherently flawed. The rules don't give a shit what you think about sources - they're the rules. Unless you can provide evidence from the films which contradicts the discrimination evidence (in the same way as much evidence has been found to contradict the 3 million number), you fail. End of.

I have already given evidence - if discrimination is IMPERIAL then the Rebellion would have people wanting to fight against that discrimination. As in, female and alien pilots/soldiers. Yet there are none.
This either indicates that there is no discrimination at all, or discrimination is inherent in both Republic/Empire and that non-huMan is bullshit.

It's not my fault that you automatically dismiss all evidence that isn't in your favor. I have yet to see an explanation as to why the Rebellion has a distinct lack of female and alien military personnel if it's the Empire who concocts the discrimination.

[Steel]

You don't get it do you? We regard the wars in Star Wars as galactic scale, because that's common sense.
An EU author saw the SAME wars in Star Wars and concluded that they were "brushfires" and talk of the galaxy burning under fierce battles was "propaganda". The movies by themselves do not inherently contradict that. And that is my point. Simply because an EU author says it is so, and the movies are neutral on the subject it does not mean we can't question it.

Edit: For an example of how "non-huMan" violates common sense, think about this: Discrimination breeds resistance. The oppressed become unhappy and rise up. The Rebellion fights against the Empire. If there was truly an Imperial-specific policy of discrimination, why are there not tons of women and aliens fighting in the Rebellion in the movies? And I mean more than one token female (which I've never noticed so can't confirm) and black guy in the background and Mon Cals who bought their way in with a fleet of capital ships which only they can use.

Fucking hell!

I'm not going to respond to anything about the clone wars as it is a red herring and not relevant to this discussion. If you think that the weight of evidence of equal or higher canon status on the two issues is remotely similar, go fuck yourself.

From just the films we DO see female and alien personell working with the alliance and other races are noted as being sympathetic to their cause or did you miss the bothan spies and the sullustans? AND AGAIN you try to say that the empire does not discriminate based on the rebel alliance! Moron.

In the films we do not see any female personnel and we have from the EU that there fucking is a policy of discrimination! You cant disprove that unless elsewhere it states that there is not that policy or there are a reasonable number of female personnel in the imperial armed forces (in equal or higher canon sources)

I speak of military personnel, i.e. pilots and soldiers. If Lazarus can dismiss female members of Imperial intelligence, I can sure as hell dismiss glorified telephone operators.

By your logic here the pilots and officers arent military personnel because they dont beat the enemy to death with their bare hands. Of course someone in charge of fire control is in the military you twat!

[Cao Cao]

I'm not going to respond to anything about the clone wars as it is a red herring and not relevant to this discussion. If you think that the weight of evidence of equal or higher canon status on the two issues is remotely similar, go fuck yourself.

Bite me, you twat. And take your inane me-tooing elsewhere while you're at it. If you don't like the clones comparison, too bad. It stands.

From just the films we DO see female and alien personell working with the alliance and other races are noted as being sympathetic to their cause or did you miss the bothan spies and the sullustans? AND AGAIN you try to say that the empire does not discriminate based on the rebel alliance! Moron.

Let's see.. we see a few female comm operators, Mon Cals who came with their own ships and one Sullustian who just coincidentally happens to be there when the Rebel fleet masses at Sullust. Okay. Sure. Whatever.

And the Bothan spies? The same Bothan spies who gave the Rebellion planted information? The same Bothan spies that the EU says work for anyone?

In the films we do not see any female personnel and we have from the EU that there fucking is a policy of discrimination! You cant disprove that unless elsewhere it states that there is not that policy or there are a reasonable number of female personnel in the imperial armed forces (in equal or higher canon sources)

The EU says lots of things. Which are wrong. That's my point. It makes no sense.

By your logic here the pilots and officers arent military personnel because they dont beat the enemy to death with their bare hands. Of course someone in charge of fire control is in the military you twat!

That's not my logic you moron, that's Lazarus'.
He automatically dismisses non-combat female personnel in the Empire, therefore I can do the same until he conceeds.

[Steel]

I have already given evidence - if discrimination is IMPERIAL then the Rebellion would have people wanting to fight against that discrimination. As in, female and alien pilots/soldiers. Yet there are none.
This either indicates that there is no discrimination at all, or discrimination is inherent in both Republic/Empire and that non-huMan is bullshit.

It's not my fault that you automatically dismiss all evidence that isn't in your favor. I have yet to see an explanation as to why the Rebellion has a distinct lack of female and alien military personnel if it's the Empire who concocts the discrimination.

Ah of course! I forgot that popular unrest translates into ordinary people popping starships out of their arse! You assert that the rebellion's main recruitment point would be that the empire is sexist or racist? Hilarious! Also completely missing the Mon calamari who gave their entire fleet to the rebels!

Whats this about NO females/aliens in the rebellion? Outright lie which you contradict just 1 post earlier!

Stop bringing up the rebels FFS! They have no bearing on this discussion. Can you not comprehend how the canon works? Let alone that your analogy is flawed.

[Lazarus]

This either indicates that there is no discrimination at all, or discrimination is inherent in both Republic/Empire and that non-huMan is bullshit.

Great, now you're breaking the rules of logic too. So, what you're saying is, because there aren't very many women in the Alliance, that must therefore mean that there is no policy of discrimination in the Empire? This is a logical fallacy.

Furthermore, you hold that this flawed assertion COMPLETELY OVERRIDES the rules of canon, because you personally believe that it should be the case, based on your own interpretation?

I have yet to see an explanation as to why the Rebellion has a distinct lack of female and alien military personnel if it's the Empire who concocts the discrimination.

There doesn't need to be one, you're missing the point. There could be any number of reasons for this, it doesn't matter - you're still basing your argument, which goes against the established evidence, on the idea that all of the evidence available is completely invalidated due to your analysis. 'There aren't many women in the Alliance' does not prove the conclusion 'There is no discrimination in the Empire' - the two do not follow. And yet, this seems to be what your argument is based upon. As Steel has said, massive Red Herring.

[Cao Cao]

Ah of course! I forgot that popular unrest translates into ordinary people popping starships out of their arse!

No, dipshit. It means there'd be people willing to sign up as pilots, soldiers, etc. to fight the oppressive regime.

You assert that the rebellion's main recruitment point would be that the empire is sexist or racist? Hilarious!

Bullshit strawman. It would be part of their appeal to fight against the Empire. Not all of it.

Also completely missing the Mon calamari who gave their entire fleet to the rebels!

Yes. All the Mon Calamari had to do to get into the Rebellion was provide a fleet of highly advanced capital ships.

Whats this about NO females/aliens in the rebellion? Outright lie which you contradict just 1 post earlier!

Read what I said before.
And by the way, all examples of females/aliens in the EU, military or not are summarily dismissed as special cases because of what another part of the EU says. But of course, I can't do the same with the few rare examples because no goddamn author has said so?

Stop bringing up the rebels FFS! They have no bearing on this discussion. Can you not comprehend how the canon works? Let alone that your analogy is flawed.

I know perfectly how canon works. What YOU can't comprehend is simple common sense.

[Lazarus]

That's not my logic you moron, that's Lazarus'.
He automatically dismisses non-combat female personnel in the Empire, therefore I can do the same until he conceeds.

Go fuck yourself you strawmanning arsehole. Read my fucking post, that's not what I've said, which I just stated not 20 minutes ago. Gee, you're doing well for logical fallacies today aren't you?

[Cao Cao]

Great, now you're breaking the rules of logic too. So, what you're saying is, because there aren't very many women in the Alliance, that must therefore mean that there is no policy of discrimination in the Empire? This is a logical fallacy.

No, I gave that as an example of evidence from the movies, dumbass.

Furthermore, you hold that this flawed assertion COMPLETELY OVERRIDES the rules of canon, because you personally believe that it should be the case, based on your own interpretation?

No. Based on a better explanation than what some EU author gave. Just as with the 3 million clones.

There doesn't need to be one, you're missing the point. There could be any number of reasons for this, it doesn't matter - you're still basing your argument, which goes against the established evidence, on the idea that all of the evidence available is completely invalidated due to your analysis. 'There aren't many women in the Alliance' does not prove the conclusion 'There is no discrimination in the Empire' - the two do not follow. And yet, this seems to be what your argument is based upon. As Steel has said, massive Red Herring.

It does not prove that there is no discrimination in the Empire. It doesn't need to. There may be discrimination.
What it shows is that there is no innate, deliberate Imperial policy of discrimination. If there is discrimination, then it has always existed.

That's not my logic you moron, that's Lazarus'.
He automatically dismisses non-combat female personnel in the Empire, therefore I can do the same until he conceeds.

Go fuck yourself you strawmanning arsehole. Read my fucking post, that's not what I've said, which I just stated not 20 minutes ago. Gee, you're doing well for logical fallacies today aren't you?

I didn't respond because I didn't see it.
And now that I have, you're full of shit. The Rebellion isn't a proper organised military force? Kindly prove this ridiculous assertion. They may be mobile and have to hide their bases, but that says nothing about the state of their military.

By the way, you're a lying ass. You have repeatedly stated that intelligence operatives and even pilots don't conflict with "Non-huMan".

[Lazarus]

No, I gave that as an example of evidence from the movies, dumbass.

An example? You mean the ONLY thing your argument is based on? Which doesn't even qualify as definitive evidence because it states absolutely nothing about discrimination?

No. Based on a better explanation than what some EU author gave. Just as with the 3 million clones.

Oh, a better explanation? Right, so your explanation is 'better' than the EU, therefore you win? Of course, how could we not see that, we must bow to your incredible intellect and power to override anything you want because you're 'better' than the EU!

NOBODY CARES WHAT YOU THINK. THE EU OVERRIDES YOU. END OF.

And no, not 'just as' with the 3 million, as has been repeatedly stated to you, that is a false analogy, stop clinging to it.

What it shows is that there is no innate, deliberate Imperial policy of discrimination.

Not true, it 'shows' NOTHING. It could 'indicate' any number of things, but that is subjective to the person viewing it. You need PROOF for an argument, of which you have NONE - all your argument is built on is subjective reasoning, and pretty goddamn weak subjective reasoning which is overidden by multiple, independant sources within the EU.

[Steel]

It does not prove that there is no discrimination in the Empire. It doesn't need to. There may be discrimination.
What it shows is that there is no innate, deliberate Imperial policy of discrimination. If there is discrimination, then it has always existed.

Phew! At last, you concede the whole point of the thread, which was to show that there is discrimination against females in the imperial military.

I dont give a shit if everyone does it, or if nobody but the empire does it. The point of this thread was to decide if the Empire does it.


Addendum:

A "me too" is when someone joins in and parrots someone elses arguments or jumps on the bandwagon to jump on a defeated opponent. What is happening here is that you are debating two people with a similar stance who are both contributing to the argument. It is not a case of me just repeating lazarus' points