Steven Snyder wrote:The cat in question IS genetically identical to her parent. There are no genetic defects to speak of.
What is hard to understand that in SW ALL KNOWN CLONE TROOPS have been physically identical and this is EASILY accomplishable by their biological and genetic manipulation technology. It is desirable for standardization, that is, perhaps "classes" of troops slightly different, but like models of a handgun, ones of the same class should be identical for ease of logistics and standardization. Furthermore we KNOW THEY DO THIS, because they DELIBERATELY suppressed the variables that'd produce slightly unique clones as we see in AoTC.
Steven Snyder wrote:DNA manipulation alone is not enough to ensure that clones are going to be identical. Their environment still plays a large role in their physical development. Identical Twins are technically perfect clones of each other, not even with technology can you come any closer than this. But twins that have been separated at birth and then reunited usually bear resemblance but are not mirror images of each other.
*sigh* Ok...here's my point.
You are RIGHT. Variables
SHOULD CAUSE THE CLONES TO BE SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT.
THEY
ARE NOT DIFFERENT, ALL KNOWN DATA FROM AOTC SHOWS IDENTICAL CLONES.
Therefore, it follows that they suppress the variables, and this makes sense for the aforementioned reasons.
Steven Snyder wrote:And not to be ignored, turning off such gene expressions like growth is a random process. Which is why CC looks different than her parent, this randomness is on a cellular level.
Hence why they have the technology, the will, and the reason to suppress all the above to produce obviously identical in appearance and size clones.
Besides, modern cloning suffers from issues that do not apply in the highly advanced SW universe. Identical twins are a better analogy. The cat is really irrelevent, but the fact it is different proves my point that they CAN, WANT TO, and DO purposely make them identical, likely for standardization and logistical simplicity.
Steven Snyder wrote:This is very interesting, if you have a canon source on it please reference it so that I can research it.
Pax Emperica, the article you linked, AOTC....they're all educated
en masse, and bueracracies do not custom-make anything. There'd be specialty stormies, but say, all high-G stomies should be identical, all starship stormies should be identical by the evidence. The pic from ANH is irreconcilable.
Steven Snyder wrote:The Empire has in use several different variations of the Star Destroyer, I see that as evidence that the Empire doesn't have an ultra-strict policy on creating identical standards.
The clones are products; manufactured weapons. All ISD Mark I's are more-or-less identical, like with all models of manufactured weapons. We don't make unique tanks for a reason, same thing here.
You see? Identical "models" of troopers mean the following:
1.) Easy and perfect uniform/armor fitting.
2.) Ready-to-use advanced medpacs where the amount of medication is perfect dosage and type due to known physical characteristics down to the last gene.
3.) Barracks, etc, optimized for maximum efficiency due to trooper standardization.
Steven Snyder wrote:The facts as I know it say that we are only aware of one planet that produces clones and we can only assume others have been setup after AoTC.
Your link also implied the same cloning technology.
My analysis is based on military practices, common sense, and AOTC since it is the only known source of canon cloning.
Steven Snyder wrote:Also I don't know that even the Kaminoians didn't slightly alter their clones on each generation. It seems likely that they did as they should have been 'tweaking' the system to get the best clones possible.
They already had tweaked them. Making random clones is a logistical nightmare. Half the advantages in using clones (and there were few enough already) are gone.
Steven Snyder wrote:I don't know where you get the figure of 22 billion clone troopers from AoTC. On page 193 of the hardback they specifically mention that 200,000 are ready and another 1,000,000 are on the way. This is far cry from 22 billion, can elaborate on that figure?
1.2 million individuals is so ludicrious it is not worth discussing. 1.2 million individuals is about right to assault Geonosis alone.
1.2 million units. If one unit = one division, and SW divisions = RL modern divisions, than one division = 20,000 troops.
20,000 x 1.2 million = 24 billion troops. This is really low for even a small special forces unit across the galaxy. It barely would perform as a shock troop force, which is what it is.
We have 6 billion people on Earth with the neccessity of independency (can't rely on other worlds' resources) and SW technology. 24 billion could easily be manufactured and trained on a single Earth-sized world.
Steven Snyder wrote:Of the 200,000 you see in the movie, it is quite possible that they are all virtually identical because those you see are all from the same generation, the first generation. ObiWan is specifically told that the mature ones are 10 years old.
The generations' crap here is meaningless. Given the fact they suppress variables in growth, development, and thought, the idea they couldn't maintain standards and consistency with their clones is laughable. They were in control and made them identical for a reason.
Steven Snyder wrote:It is quite possible, for the very reasons I have already listed.
It makes no sense. You seem to fail to grasp how militaries prefer to have manufactured weapons to be standardized and that's one of the main-strengths in clones. You simply would not see the mix of random sizes you see in ANH.
Steven Snyder wrote:As far as I have read, there were only 200,000 and they were all the same generation.
200,000 x 20,000 = 4 billion individuals. This is about appropriate for immediate assaults and such, but the 20 billion on the way is needed for the war.
Keep in mind the Stormtroopers just walking around on common warships and defense stations (not troopships, invasion forces, garrisons, troops on base, and occupations) in ANH was around 250 billion.
Steven Snyder wrote:As I have said before the differences in height can be attributed to being bred on different worlds under sllightly different conditions.
This would be suppressed as much as possible as seen in AOTC.
The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate they'd make inferior random clones for no reason which do not follow the patterns of known canon clones when they have the technology to prevent this.
Darth Wong wrote:Steven Snyder wrote:Primus, I am going to have to disagree with you on this...
1.) SW technology allows complete manipulation of the genetic structure including personality predisposition, physical size and appearance, and talents to be manipulated at will.
The cat in question IS genetically identical to her parent. There are no genetic defects to speak of.
You're missing the point, which is simply that AOTC showed us quite clearly that all Jango-clones are indeed physically identical, at least to within the limits of observation through film. Therefore, the large variability in stormtrooper physical characteristics from the OT is inconsistent with the notion (obviously being peddled by GL) that the same process which was used to make the clonetroopers was used to make every stormtrooper as well.
Besides, it's also mind-bogglingly stupid. A recruit is much cheaper than a clone, and it's not as if there isn't a hefty population to draw from.
EXACTLY!
Thank you Mike.
The clones in AOTC were there to provide a politically free way of instigating a war for Palpy. They have no families, elect no Senators, and were ready to fight when it broke out. Holonetnews indicates that several key Core Worlds were opposed to the Military Creation Act not because they were pacifists, but conscription, heavy taxes, the massive strain of having to tool-up a military out of nowhere made them rethink the idea, and the Seperatists already had an army to boot.
The clones made it possible for Palpy to start the war and fight it to a degree (allowing Planetary Security Forces and recruitment to tool up and supplement the clonetroopers). These motivations do not exist in the OT. The idea that stormtroopers are clones is socialogically, politically, and financially unjustifiable in the OT.