Stormies are NOT clones!

[Darth Garden Gnome]

There's always my little theory, Primus be damned, IT WORKS!

Anyways, there could be another infinate ways (none of which I can think of) for them to still be clones, yet be different heights and have different voices.

Also, Ghost Rider, your analogy is flawed. "but like I said it's akin if he claimed Greedo shot first before the SE."

We have direct visual evidence, before the SE, that Greedo did not shoot.

We do NOT have anything that directly conflicts with the clones idea, since any number of theories can explain the different height phenomenon. If we don't have any conflicts, PLUS GL says that's the way it, and I find it hard to believe you have such a problem dealing with it.

[Steven Snyder]

*sigh*. Steven, please CAREFULLY read people's responses.

The point was that someone posted a request for the GL quote, not this article. The article has less merit to GL quote. Being that GL is the creator, his word is essentially the word of god....whether ANY of us want it one way or another.

Did it sink in yet? No? Read it twenty more times, maybe then you're brain might be able to comprehend these things called letters that form words, which are used to form sentences, which are used to convey language.

About not reading someone's post...

You wanted a quote from George Lucas, and so I delivered one.

Now then please read the above sentence 20 times and then look over the article that I just so kindly provided a link for and gave you the text to.

When you are done being an ass, just let me know so we can continue this conversation like adults.

[Ghost Rider]

Them being clones...no

Them being clones SOLELY from Jango...yes.

Look at GL's Quote...it's stating that the quirk comes from Jango, who is the template and is put into ALL clones.

GL: Throughout as we go through the movie there's all little funny moments like Jango bumping his head because in Star Wars one of the stormtroopers bumps his head on the door as they leave the control room on the Death Star and I thought wouldn't it be funny if that's a trait that Jango has. When he puts his helmet on and everything he can't really see that well and so he's constantly bumping his head and that trait gets cloned into all the stormtroopers and that's why they keep bumping their heads

Thus it's like saying Greedo shot first before SE...he's literally stating that all Stormies are Jango's clones because of Jango's quirky trait about banging his head...yet it's shown they are do not match sizes by any means.

That or they have the absolutely dumbest training program ever to which a dumb quirk is implanted into them.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

Thus it's like saying Greedo shot first before SE...he's literally stating that all Stormies are Jango's clones because of Jango's quirky trait about banging his head...yet it's shown they are do not match sizes by any means.

That or they have the absolutely dumbest training program ever to which a dumb quirk is implanted into them.

Eh, nevermind then. Wow that is bad. Don't get me wrong I like the homage to the OT and everything, but all clones being a template of Jango......Yuck.....Now this sucks....


*sighs, and prays to god that EpIII will have at least SOME recruits.different clone avatars*

Wow....Yuck....

[Ghost Rider]

That's my problem

[AdmiralKanos]

Excuse me, just an innocent question.

200 gigatons in NO WAY appears in ANY of the films, OT and Prequel era. Yet we accept it as fact because of ICS.

And because it's a reasonable scaling-down of the Death Star turbolaser. Do the math. There is no contradiction with canon.

GL says their clones, yet we CANNOT accept that, oh no, that can't be.

Look at the picture. He says they're all clones of Jango, yet we can see from the OT that they're not all the same height.

Yet the creator of Wars says this is so in his commentaries in the DVD even goes so far to say that "Gee I hope we were pretty clear that these are the future stormtroopers." Sorry GL guess you weren't clear enough for some people.

His intent is obvious. The fact that this is a revision upon history is also obvious, since he will have to severely alter the original trilogy to make it consistent with this unofficial comment.

Kind of reminds me of how some Trekkies go runing around in circles going "NO, I can't hear you! No 200 what?!? No I can't hear you!!! It's not in the films so thats not right!"

There's a huge difference between not being duplicated in the canon and being directly contradicted by the canon.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Ask and you shall recieve...

http://cgi.theforce.net/theforce/tfn.cgi?storyID=16421

Proof that Lucasfilm has stated that Stormtroopers are clones.

Uhm....and ancient EU which has been greatly disregarded by everyone, including by the Official site tells us what?

Those methods are similar to that of the Kaminoans, which does nightmares for the "pure clones" theory, as I showed in an earlier thread because they simply couldn't double the number of stormtroopers when they doubled their military in the 3.5 years between ANH and ESB.

I was asking for someone to post GL proof about the "redubbing the OT stormies" bullshit no one has a quote for.

I've seen those articles.

[Stravo]

Kind of reminds me of how some Trekkies go runing around in circles going "NO, I can't hear you! No 200 what?!? No I can't hear you!!! It's not in the films so thats not right!"

There's a huge difference between not being duplicated in the canon and being directly contradicted by the canon.

My problem with that is that it is not particularly refuted by canon in SW. Many explanations have been proferred to explain the varying stormtrooper height as well as a canon line of dialogue from Princess Leia: "Aren't you a little short to be a stormtrooper." indicates SOME uniformity in height amongst the Stormy ranks.

[Illuminatus Primus]

So a document published by Lucasfilm in 1981 is not canon enough for you?

The article fits all existing film canon, and is consistent with the material in AoTC.

Does it escape you that ANH disagrees, and suffers from physically differing troopers, when clearly they had the ability to standardize physical size for convienence in AoTC?

I. The stormtroopers in the article and clonetroopers in AoTC have their ability to think specifically mentioned.

That's nothing new. The fanatical and ultra-loyal and uncorruptable nature of the Stormtroopers was refered to in-depth by WEG a LONG time ago. The fact recent clonetrooper description fit that is irrelevent.

II. The article mentions an accelerated growth period followed by a training cycle which is consistent with AoTC.

Troops which take 10 years from vat-to-battlefield are impossible to except in a "pure clones" theory because the Empire had to double the size of its military by ESB, and they only had 3 and a half years to do it. Accelerating the growth cycle even more makes the stormtroopers age faster and become useless much sooner.

III. The article mentions that the stormtroopers start their training as children, which also follows what we see in AoTC.

The 10 years of training/education/etc is the whole flaw in the theory.

#1 A document created by Lucasfilm in 1981 detailing the origins of Stormtroopers that is internally consistent with existing canon sources.

Ok, according to you: ancient EU sources are suddenly vastly relevent when they're decades old and STILL ignored by even the official site.

The fact they refer to Royal Guards being guarding others than Palpatine, which is not consistent with canon data.

The growth cycle makes it impossible for the stormtroopers by ESB to all be clones. The ONLY way for them to be clones as of ESB is for another cloning system other then the one described in this article and in AoTC is used that can make troops much faster without the problems of them aging very quickly, thus becoming old too fast.

And lastly, when is the last time the Empire depending on a single planet of aliens to do production?

Kaminoan cloning, and cloning of Jango Fett is almost DEFINITELY NOT OT cloning if all the OT stormtroopers are clones.

My problem with that is that it is not particularly refuted by canon in SW. Many explanations have been proferred to explain the varying stormtrooper height as well as a canon line of dialogue from Princess Leia: "Aren't you a little short to be a stormtrooper." indicates SOME uniformity in height amongst the Stormy ranks.

Stravo, that's really stretching credability.

Look at the photo. Their sizes and heights are NOT uniform. Visuals that explicit are above everything else.

Most of the "explanations" are at best almost as bad as Trekkie-doublethink. Until something is said/done/etc., this is going to remain a quagmire of senseless crap.

You know I'm with you on this (I do accept the stormtroopers were intended to be a pure clone unit), however:

This is a severe problem, because clones of a single man should be more or less the same, and even if they're different templates, we know in AoTC they had the ability to suppress any growth variables so all the clones ended up the same size, but suddenly they stopped doing this in order to fuck up logistics? They have the technology but don't use it. The only acceptable conclusion is the stormtroopers observed are not clones.

Like I said, this is a problem.

And the idea that all stormies are all clones of Jango Fett is incredibly stupid. GL is suffering from chronic brain-bugs if he thinks all stormtroopers would be cloned from some bounty-hunter regardless of specialization indefinitely.

About not reading someone's post...

You wanted a quote from George Lucas, and so I delivered one.

Now then please read the above sentence 20 times and then look over the article that I just so kindly provided a link for and gave you the text to.

When you are done being an ass, just let me know so we can continue this conversation like adults.

Steven, you posted a quote/link originally that was totally irrelevent to what I was asking for and has added nothing to the situation at hand. As illustrated below, the magazine is not consistent with a "pure clones" theory for several reasons.

Throughout as we go through the movie there's all little funny moments like Jango bumping his head because in Star Wars one of the stormtroopers bumps his head on the door as they leave the control room on the Death Star and I thought wouldn't it be funny if that's a trait that Jango has. When he puts his helmet on and everything he can't really see that well and so he's constantly bumping his head and that trait gets cloned into all the stormtroopers and that's why they keep bumping their heads.

With all due respect: that is the stupidist thing I have ever heard.

[Lord_Xerxes]

I think Illuminatus handled it pretty well there, Steven, so I'll be brief.

You posted an article, instead of the asked for quotes. I prompted the question that this isn't canon, and where is the GL quotes. You got nasty over it. You were an ass first. So don't get all hot and bothered when someone calls your crap.

When we have to repeat ourselves time and time again, it becomes frustrating. So try paying attention. You seem to be a little fresh around here, so we'll let it slide. Don't make a habbit of it.

[Steven Snyder]

First of all, I conceed that the magazine is not canon. That is why I went out and got what appears to be a text version of GLs comments on the DVD commentaries. I posted those as soon as I realized that you would not accept the magazine as canon.

Ask and you shall recieve...

http://cgi.theforce.net/theforce/tfn.cgi?storyID=16421

Proof that Lucasfilm has stated that Stormtroopers are clones.

Uhm....and ancient EU which has been greatly disregarded by everyone, including by the Official site tells us what?

Those methods are similar to that of the Kaminoans, which does nightmares for the "pure clones" theory, as I showed in an earlier thread because they simply couldn't double the number of stormtroopers when they doubled their military in the 3.5 years between ANH and ESB.

I was asking for someone to post GL proof about the "redubbing the OT stormies" bullshit no one has a quote for.

I've seen those articles.

I haven't heard anything about his redubbing of the stormtroopers, there are a lot of rumors about him redoing the OT...everything from adding Jar Jar to Episode 4 to putting Natalie Portman in it. However I think all of them have been discounted.

Now for something completely different...

On the subject of variable height clones...

I hear a lot of people talking about how the stormtroopers can be clones if they are all the same height. Now I am not going to even approach the idea that GL knew this when he did ANH, but an interesting cloning article came out a days ago.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/862384.asp

I am not going to quote the entire article, you can view it for yourself and see it. I will however sum it up.

Texas A&M took a cat and cloned it. The cloned cat has a different color pattern, is phyically smaller, and has a different personality. The doctors that did the experiment were not suprised.

It seems that environment plays a larger part in the development of an individual than most people expected. DNA does provide a blueprint for development but the environment that development takes place in is just as big of a factor.

How does this relate to the Stormtrooper problem?

I think that the stormtroopers being of different heights is actually more realistic than expecting them all to be the exact same size.

Consider that their are a lot of stormtroopers in the Imperial Armed Forces, and it is likely they are produced on several worlds. On these worlds it is reasonable to find variation in many things that will affect development such as; diet, training regimen, gravity, and a laundry list of other small variables. And even on a single world you may find a few slight changes between generations due to seemingly minor factors like choosing a new supplier of food that uses a slightly different formula.

With this new data in mind I am actually in favor of the images of stormtroopers being of different heights. You could well be looking at a group of soldiers who may share the same DNA, but are of several different generations coming from different worlds and have been raised with difference diets, it's no wonder they look...well different.

The Empire in all possibility knows of this variable and counts on it. One possible use would be to breed Stormtroopers on a High-G, so that they are already suited for High-G worlds for garrison duty.


This being said I don't think that GL had this in mind when he cast the Stormtroopers for 4-6. I think it was an unavoidable flaw in production that looks like it is actually going to work in favor of realism than against it.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I haven't heard anything about his redubbing of the stormtroopers, there are a lot of rumors about him redoing the OT...everything from adding Jar Jar to Episode 4 to putting Natalie Portman in it. However I think all of them have been discounted.

Check out the "Ask the Jedi Council" at SW.com for elaboration.

Texas A&M took a cat and cloned it. The cloned cat has a different color pattern, is phyically smaller, and has a different personality. The doctors that did the experiment were not suprised.

It seems that environment plays a larger part in the development of an individual than most people expected. DNA does provide a blueprint for development but the environment that development takes place in is just as big of a factor.

This is frankly irrelevent. One, we have not perfected the problems surrounding the body's "genetic clock" in cloning, resulting in defects and such.

I think that the stormtroopers being of different heights is actually more realistic than expecting them all to be the exact same size.

Steven, you're ignoring the SW premise to the situation here.

1.) SW technology allows complete manipulation of the genetic structure including personality predisposition, physical size and appearance, and talents to be manipulated at will.

2.) The training/education/growth environments are identical and controlled to uniform standards.

3.) AoTC illustrates possibly 22 billion clone troopers (20 k per division, 1 unit = 1 division). Each and every single one of them appears to be physically identical. All of them wear the same identical suit of armor in the same size.

4.) GL's quotes and such suggest a Kaminoan style cloning method producing stormies that are Jango-clones.

Now, firstly, they have the ability to mold the clones as they wish, phyiscally and mentally. For ease of logistics and uniform standards, quite possibly 22 billion clones were made to be more or less identical.

Next, GL implies the same methods were used and Jango was the template. We have drastically different sizes of troopers--this is NOT probable if they are all clones.

And if it is a Kaminoan style method, they couldn't double the size of the military in 3 and a half years between ANH and ESB.

Consider that their are a lot of stormtroopers in the Imperial Armed Forces, and it is likely they are produced on several worlds. On these worlds it is reasonable to find variation in many things that will affect development such as; diet, training regimen, gravity, and a laundry list of other small variables. And even on a single world you may find a few slight changes between generations due to seemingly minor factors like choosing a new supplier of food that uses a slightly different formula.

Yet 22 billion troops in AoTC were almost 100% identical, especially physically. You cannot defeat this SW canon premise. The "multi-template" theories are better, but still flawed since they were able to do significant editing to Jango's template including mental, age cycle, and physical alterations genetically. We know they have the technology and the will and reason to edit all templates to identical size/heights. They do not. The only probable conclusion is not all stormtroopers are clones.

With this new data in mind I am actually in favor of the images of stormtroopers being of different heights. You could well be looking at a group of soldiers who may share the same DNA, but are of several different generations coming from different worlds and have been raised with difference diets, it's no wonder they look...well different.

Ten years per each trooper produced by the Kaminoans and possible subcontractors. All twenty-two billion troopers are identical. The precedents set by our science is irrelevent. The premise set by the SW cloning technologies and methods IS relevent, and it is not consistent with your conclusion.

The Empire in all possibility knows of this variable and counts on it. One possible use would be to breed Stormtroopers on a High-G, so that they are already suited for High-G worlds for garrison duty.

Look at the picture in the front. You would not have motley groups of drastically different-sized clones. You might have different types per specialization, but you wouldn't have a group with the same assignment drastically different.

This being said I don't think that GL had this in mind when he cast the Stormtroopers for 4-6. I think it was an unavoidable flaw in production that looks like it is actually going to work in favor of realism than against it.

No, GL either didn't care to portray the stormies as clones or didn't intend to at that point.

The ANH phenomenon is not consistent with an "all clones" theory.

What kind of idiots would fuck up standardization and logistics by purposely breeding them in bizarre sizes, when we KNOW they can and have chosen to do otherwise. There's no satisfactory conclusion other then this that doesn't involve fallacious conclusions riddled with double-think and ignorance of canon facts.

[Lord_Xerxes]

This being said I don't think that GL had this in mind when he cast the Stormtroopers for 4-6. I think it was an unavoidable flaw in production that looks like it is actually going to work in favor of realism than against it.

Going to have to agree with you there. In that time, the technology just wasn't available as far as cgi and all. Plus, trying to filter through a group of extras to find all the ones of the same height and build would probably be exhausting. So the error has made things more real.

As a matter of opinion, I sincerely hope that he doesn't go back and alter the originals to make the Stormies all the same height, etc.

If there are any changes that I feel should be made to the OT, it should be for him to take out the "Greedo shoots first"...come on, does anyone buy that? Some of the matte lines are still very visible, especially in the Rancor scene. I think that still needs a lot of cleaning up. He could also fix the Force Kick (or Force Big Boot as I like to call it) in ROTJ where Luke kicks someone off a sail barge without ever touching them.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Going to have to agree with you there. In that time, the technology just wasn't available as far as cgi and all. Plus, trying to filter through a group of extras to find all the ones of the same height and build would probably be exhausting. So the error has made things more real.

This is silly. He could've at least made them approximately the same height, in which case the "differing situations" explanations would work, in which case they don't with the extent of the differences on the pic in the first page.

As a matter of opinion, I sincerely hope that he doesn't go back and alter the originals to make the Stormies all the same height, etc.

I hope he does if stormies are all supposed to be clones.

Until he does, we cannot operate on that assumption due to aforementioned flaws in the explanations, and the obvious differing physical sizes of the stormtroopers.

If there are any changes that I feel should be made to the OT, it should be for him to take out the "Greedo shoots first"...come on, does anyone buy that? Some of the matte lines are still very visible, especially in the Rancor scene. I think that still needs a lot of cleaning up. He could also fix the Force Kick (or Force Big Boot as I like to call it) in ROTJ where Luke kicks someone off a sail barge without ever touching them.

Agreed.

[Lord_Xerxes]

Going to have to agree with you there. In that time, the technology just wasn't available as far as cgi and all. Plus, trying to filter through a group of extras to find all the ones of the same height and build would probably be exhausting. So the error has made things more real.

This is silly. He could've at least made them approximately the same height, in which case the "differing situations" explanations would work, in which case they don't with the extent of the differences on the pic in the first page.

By real, I meant...more real to the opininon that not ALL troopers are clones. Which is what my oppinion is.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Ah, my mistake.

[Steven Snyder]

Primus, I am going to have to disagree with you on this...

1.) SW technology allows complete manipulation of the genetic structure including personality predisposition, physical size and appearance, and talents to be manipulated at will.

The cat in question IS genetically identical to her parent. There are no genetic defects to speak of.

DNA manipulation alone is not enough to ensure that clones are going to be identical. Their environment still plays a large role in their physical development. Identical Twins are technically perfect clones of each other, not even with technology can you come any closer than this. But twins that have been separated at birth and then reunited usually bear resemblance but are not mirror images of each other.

Genetic differences between clones could actually exist as the embryonic cells may mutate as they are dividing. These mutated cells will give rise to more mutations as the fetus grows, which results in an offspring with different DNA than the parent, even though they started out identical.

And not to be ignored, turning off such gene expressions like growth is a random process. Which is why CC looks different than her parent, this randomness is on a cellular level.

2.) The training/education/growth environments are identical and controlled to uniform standards.

This is very interesting, if you have a canon source on it please reference it so that I can research it.

The Empire has in use several different variations of the Star Destroyer, I see that as evidence that the Empire doesn't have an ultra-strict policy on creating identical standards.

The facts as I know it say that we are only aware of one planet that produces clones and we can only assume others have been setup after AoTC.

Also I don't know that even the Kaminoians didn't slightly alter their clones on each generation. It seems likely that they did as they should have been 'tweaking' the system to get the best clones possible.

3.) AoTC illustrates possibly 22 billion clone troopers (20 k per division, 1 unit = 1 division). Each and every single one of them appears to be physically identical. All of them wear the same identical suit of armor in the same size.

I don't know where you get the figure of 22 billion clone troopers from AoTC. On page 193 of the hardback they specifically mention that 200,000 are ready and another 1,000,000 are on the way. This is far cry from 22 billion, can elaborate on that figure?

Of the 200,000 you see in the movie, it is quite possible that they are all virtually identical because those you see are all from the same generation, the first generation. ObiWan is specifically told that the mature ones are 10 years old.

How do we know that was the first generation? Because Jango was the template and his price was the creation of Boba, that boy is the key to knowing how long the cloning was going on because he was created out of the first batch. Since Boba appears around 10, and definately not near his 20's, we can safely assume that the 10 year old mature clones are the first generation.

Since they are the first generation, and raised in the same environment, it does stand to reason that they all be nearly identical.

Next, GL implies the same methods were used and Jango was the template. We have drastically different sizes of troopers--this is NOT probable if they are all clones.

It is quite possible, for the very reasons I have already listed.

Yet 22 billion troops in AoTC were almost 100% identical, especially physically. You cannot defeat this SW canon premise. The "multi-template" theories are better, but still flawed since they were able to do significant editing to Jango's template including mental, age cycle, and physical alterations genetically. We know they have the technology and the will and reason to edit all templates to identical size/heights. They do not. The only probable conclusion is not all stormtroopers are clones.

As far as I have read, there were only 200,000 and they were all the same generation.

As I have said before the differences in height can be attributed to being bred on different worlds under sllightly different conditions.

Look at the picture in the front. You would not have motley groups of drastically different-sized clones. You might have different types per specialization, but you wouldn't have a group with the same assignment drastically different.

Good point but just because they were bred in a specific environment doesn't mean that they will always be assigned there. An analogy would be a USN sailor training at Great Lakes, just because he trained in a cold climate does not prevent the Navy from posting him in the tropics.

There could be hundreds of worlds producing clones, with each generation being slightly different from the rest. Your troopers would be similar to each other, but not identical.

No, GL either didn't care to portray the stormies as clones or didn't intend to at that point

That I agree with... Thought it might be the case that he didn't have the time or money to hire a bunch of actors with the same height and build for the role of cannon fodder.


I have no big objection to the theory that some Stormtroopers might be non-cloned recruits. What I am saying is that based on what we are learning about cloning, identical DNA does not automatically create an identical copy.

Thanks for the exchange though.

[Darth Wong]

Primus, I am going to have to disagree with you on this...

1.) SW technology allows complete manipulation of the genetic structure including personality predisposition, physical size and appearance, and talents to be manipulated at will.

The cat in question IS genetically identical to her parent. There are no genetic defects to speak of.

You're missing the point, which is simply that AOTC showed us quite clearly that all Jango-clones are indeed physically identical, at least to within the limits of observation through film. Therefore, the large variability in stormtrooper physical characteristics from the OT is inconsistent with the notion (obviously being peddled by GL) that the same process which was used to make the clonetroopers was used to make every stormtrooper as well.

Besides, it's also mind-bogglingly stupid. A recruit is much cheaper than a clone, and it's not as if there isn't a hefty population to draw from.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The cat in question IS genetically identical to her parent. There are no genetic defects to speak of.

What is hard to understand that in SW ALL KNOWN CLONE TROOPS have been physically identical and this is EASILY accomplishable by their biological and genetic manipulation technology. It is desirable for standardization, that is, perhaps "classes" of troops slightly different, but like models of a handgun, ones of the same class should be identical for ease of logistics and standardization. Furthermore we KNOW THEY DO THIS, because they DELIBERATELY suppressed the variables that'd produce slightly unique clones as we see in AoTC.

DNA manipulation alone is not enough to ensure that clones are going to be identical. Their environment still plays a large role in their physical development. Identical Twins are technically perfect clones of each other, not even with technology can you come any closer than this. But twins that have been separated at birth and then reunited usually bear resemblance but are not mirror images of each other.

*sigh* Ok...here's my point.

You are RIGHT. Variables SHOULD CAUSE THE CLONES TO BE SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT.

THEY ARE NOT DIFFERENT, ALL KNOWN DATA FROM AOTC SHOWS IDENTICAL CLONES.

Therefore, it follows that they suppress the variables, and this makes sense for the aforementioned reasons.

And not to be ignored, turning off such gene expressions like growth is a random process. Which is why CC looks different than her parent, this randomness is on a cellular level.

Hence why they have the technology, the will, and the reason to suppress all the above to produce obviously identical in appearance and size clones.

Besides, modern cloning suffers from issues that do not apply in the highly advanced SW universe. Identical twins are a better analogy. The cat is really irrelevent, but the fact it is different proves my point that they CAN, WANT TO, and DO purposely make them identical, likely for standardization and logistical simplicity.

This is very interesting, if you have a canon source on it please reference it so that I can research it.

Pax Emperica, the article you linked, AOTC....they're all educated en masse, and bueracracies do not custom-make anything. There'd be specialty stormies, but say, all high-G stomies should be identical, all starship stormies should be identical by the evidence. The pic from ANH is irreconcilable.

The Empire has in use several different variations of the Star Destroyer, I see that as evidence that the Empire doesn't have an ultra-strict policy on creating identical standards.

The clones are products; manufactured weapons. All ISD Mark I's are more-or-less identical, like with all models of manufactured weapons. We don't make unique tanks for a reason, same thing here.

You see? Identical "models" of troopers mean the following:

1.) Easy and perfect uniform/armor fitting.
2.) Ready-to-use advanced medpacs where the amount of medication is perfect dosage and type due to known physical characteristics down to the last gene.
3.) Barracks, etc, optimized for maximum efficiency due to trooper standardization.

The facts as I know it say that we are only aware of one planet that produces clones and we can only assume others have been setup after AoTC.

Your link also implied the same cloning technology.

My analysis is based on military practices, common sense, and AOTC since it is the only known source of canon cloning.

Also I don't know that even the Kaminoians didn't slightly alter their clones on each generation. It seems likely that they did as they should have been 'tweaking' the system to get the best clones possible.

They already had tweaked them. Making random clones is a logistical nightmare. Half the advantages in using clones (and there were few enough already) are gone.

I don't know where you get the figure of 22 billion clone troopers from AoTC. On page 193 of the hardback they specifically mention that 200,000 are ready and another 1,000,000 are on the way. This is far cry from 22 billion, can elaborate on that figure?

1.2 million individuals is so ludicrious it is not worth discussing. 1.2 million individuals is about right to assault Geonosis alone.

1.2 million units. If one unit = one division, and SW divisions = RL modern divisions, than one division = 20,000 troops.

20,000 x 1.2 million = 24 billion troops. This is really low for even a small special forces unit across the galaxy. It barely would perform as a shock troop force, which is what it is.

We have 6 billion people on Earth with the neccessity of independency (can't rely on other worlds' resources) and SW technology. 24 billion could easily be manufactured and trained on a single Earth-sized world.

Of the 200,000 you see in the movie, it is quite possible that they are all virtually identical because those you see are all from the same generation, the first generation. ObiWan is specifically told that the mature ones are 10 years old.

The generations' crap here is meaningless. Given the fact they suppress variables in growth, development, and thought, the idea they couldn't maintain standards and consistency with their clones is laughable. They were in control and made them identical for a reason.

It is quite possible, for the very reasons I have already listed.

It makes no sense. You seem to fail to grasp how militaries prefer to have manufactured weapons to be standardized and that's one of the main-strengths in clones. You simply would not see the mix of random sizes you see in ANH.

As far as I have read, there were only 200,000 and they were all the same generation.

200,000 x 20,000 = 4 billion individuals. This is about appropriate for immediate assaults and such, but the 20 billion on the way is needed for the war.

Keep in mind the Stormtroopers just walking around on common warships and defense stations (not troopships, invasion forces, garrisons, troops on base, and occupations) in ANH was around 250 billion.

As I have said before the differences in height can be attributed to being bred on different worlds under sllightly different conditions.

This would be suppressed as much as possible as seen in AOTC.

The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate they'd make inferior random clones for no reason which do not follow the patterns of known canon clones when they have the technology to prevent this.

Primus, I am going to have to disagree with you on this...

1.) SW technology allows complete manipulation of the genetic structure including personality predisposition, physical size and appearance, and talents to be manipulated at will.

The cat in question IS genetically identical to her parent. There are no genetic defects to speak of.

You're missing the point, which is simply that AOTC showed us quite clearly that all Jango-clones are indeed physically identical, at least to within the limits of observation through film. Therefore, the large variability in stormtrooper physical characteristics from the OT is inconsistent with the notion (obviously being peddled by GL) that the same process which was used to make the clonetroopers was used to make every stormtrooper as well.

Besides, it's also mind-bogglingly stupid. A recruit is much cheaper than a clone, and it's not as if there isn't a hefty population to draw from.

EXACTLY!

Thank you Mike.

The clones in AOTC were there to provide a politically free way of instigating a war for Palpy. They have no families, elect no Senators, and were ready to fight when it broke out. Holonetnews indicates that several key Core Worlds were opposed to the Military Creation Act not because they were pacifists, but conscription, heavy taxes, the massive strain of having to tool-up a military out of nowhere made them rethink the idea, and the Seperatists already had an army to boot.

The clones made it possible for Palpy to start the war and fight it to a degree (allowing Planetary Security Forces and recruitment to tool up and supplement the clonetroopers). These motivations do not exist in the OT. The idea that stormtroopers are clones is socialogically, politically, and financially unjustifiable in the OT.

[Darth Wong]

You know, there may be two classes of stormtroopers, despite the identical-looking armour: crack troops and regulars, made up of clones and recruits.

Clones are very expensive, which makes them unsuitable for regulars. After all, the Empire has prodigious staffing requirements: the Death Star alone must have required millions, and the fleet many times more. But regulars are probably not going to perform as well as clones, particularly in terms of the so-called "killer instinct". They say that only 2% of the population has a natural killer instinct, and gets most of the kills in battle. Clonetroopers, given their psychological conditioning and upbringing, are probably composed of closer to 100% natural aggressors.

I would think that perhaps there is an elite stormtrooper force which is composed of clones, while countless regulars are recruited from the general population for the more low-level policework duties that are common to stormtroopers in the OT.

[His Divine Shadow]

I don't know where you get the figure of 22 billion clone troopers from AoTC. On page 193 of the hardback they specifically mention that 200,000 are ready and another 1,000,000 are on the way. This is far cry from 22 billion, can elaborate on that figure?

They said units, not clones.

There is some implication in the novel that unit = 1 clone but thats not explicit and is only from Obi-Wan's uninformed point of view.

[Kurgan]

This also changes the history of the Red Guards...

if they're drawn from the Stormtrooper corps.. are they clones too?

If they're not clones, and all Stormies are clones, then they're not being drawn from the stormtrooper corps, etc etc.


Obviously, Lucas didn't decide that the Stormies were supposed to all be clones until after he made ANH.

So somewhere between 1977 and 1981 he changed his mind and said they were clones.. then this information was FORGOTTEN by all of the official writers and everyone associated with Lucas until 2002 with the release of AOTC. Amazing.. but true I guess!

He had the technology to dub all their voices the same back then. The height thing... well maybe he just didn't have the time to cast people who were all the same height for the troopers. He could digitally edit the scenes so they all look the same height.

We can easily retcon the whole thing as fans, but a huge chunk of the EU suffers... oh well, tough beans for them I guess!

[Kurgan]

Now that I think about it.. he COULD have picked extras close to the same height and build, and then just given the shorter guys slightly taller shoe inserts... boom, they're the same height!

How much could that have cost? He was just lazy, or he didn't think of this "all stormtroopers are clones" idea until after ANH was out.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Kurgan: they're drawn from the Stormtroopers.

Our only visual sight of two Royal Guardsmen's faces. They looked very similar. Their probably drawn from the clones in general if they're all clones, or the "crack troops" clones in Wong's theory.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Clones are very expensive, which makes them unsuitable for regulars. After all, the Empire has prodigious staffing requirements: the Death Star alone must have required millions, and the fleet many times more. But regulars are probably not going to perform as well as clones, particularly in terms of the so-called "killer instinct". They say that only 2% of the population has a natural killer instinct, and gets most of the kills in battle. Clonetroopers, given their psychological conditioning and upbringing, are probably composed of closer to 100% natural aggressors.

I did a calc for the Stormtroopers before and I believe the lower limit to be around a trillion, with quite possibly several times that realistically.