Force Heretic: Remnant Discussion Thread (spoliers maybe)

[Darth Garden Gnome]

Of course, and Nom Anor is obviously more in touch with the history of the Imperial military than a fucking Grand Admiral...

Well I haven't read the book, so I don't know exactly what Luke tells him that would give him such a good estimate on Vong force, but if he does so, I stand corrected.

On the other hand, Anor was studying the Empire two decades. He should've had a good idea what he was going up against.

And Pelleaon was promted to Grand Admiral? Cool.

[Joe]

Of course, and Nom Anor is obviously more in touch with the history of the Imperial military than a fucking Grand Admiral...

Well I haven't read the book, so I don't know exactly what Luke tells him that would give him such a good estimate on Vong force, but if he does so, I stand corrected.

On the other hand, Anor was studying the Empire two decades. He should've had a good idea what he was going up against.

And Pelleaon was promted to Grand Admiral? Cool.

The Imperial Navy pretty much begins and ends with Pellaeon. In fact, if the Moffs of the Remnant would not cooperate with him in aiding the NR, Pellaeon was prepared to SECEDE from the Remnant and take the Navy with him.

[Burak Gazan]

Luke, Mara, Jacen and co. go off to the Unknown Regions and The Empire in search of Zonoma Sekot. They go to ask the Empire permission to explore first, and arrive to find the Empire quite frankly getting its butt handed to itself by the Yuuzhan Vong, who have finally attacked it. The Vong take Bastion, killing millions of Imperial citizens and enslaving many more. Pellaeon himself would have likely died had not Luke and co. shown up.

NOOOOOOO!!!! NJO MUST DIE!!! They can't let Bastion fall to alien scum! ARG!

Spoiler alert....




....








Bastion fell, but moving the location of the capital has happened in the past; likely Yaga Minor will be the new captial for now.
And, yes, Pellaeon RULES in this; check out this excerpt as he responds to a Vong transmission/threat as a major scrap is winding down:

...."Broadcast from the enemy, sir," Captain Yage said
"Put it on an open comm," Pellaeon said, "I want everyone to hear this."
"----will but delay the inevitable," Vorrik was saying, spitting out the words with even more of his usual bile. "There will be no mercy. None of you will be spared. Your homes will be razed and your remains will be used as fertilizer for our crops! Your worlds will be absorbed into the glorious Yuuzhan Vong empire as it engulfs the galaxy whole. You will ---" "Maybe I'm missing something, Vorrik," Pellaeon interrupted. "But I'm not seeing any evidence of this great plan of yours. We're destroying your yammosks; we've killed your spies; we're taking back those you thought were captives. You don't have the muscle to take THIS planet, let alone the others. Your threats are as empty as your boasts are shallow."
"You will eat those words when ---"
"Empty," Pellaeon repeated over the commander's renewed tirade.
"---we turn your abominations into slag and ---"
"Empty!"
"---grind every trace of you into the dust from which you were born!"
"EMPTY, Vorrik!", Pelleaon bellowed. The Yuuzhan Vong commander emitted a sound like that of a womp rat being strangled, but he didn't give him the chance to speak. "It's time for you to make good on your promises, commander; either destroy us or get out!"
"By the gods of my people infidel, I promise that you will choke on those words!"
"Maybe one day, Vorrik," Pellaeon said, "but not today. You really should have thought twice about this gambit of yours - especially if you didn't have the resources to pull it off in the first place." In the heartbeat between words he lost all hint of mockery and adopted a cold and serious tone. "We have no intentions of surrendering - not now, not ever. You may win the occasional battle against us, Vorrik, but the Empire will always strike back. THAT I promise you."...................

Why do I get the feeling the next book in this series is going to have a serious can of Imperial whoop-ass in it

[Darth Garden Gnome]

The Imperial Navy pretty much begins and ends with Pellaeon. In fact, if the Moffs of the Remnant would not cooperate with him in aiding the NR, Pellaeon was prepared to SECEDE from the Remnant and take the Navy with him.

I see, well it's good to see Pellaeon in charge after all those years in the backseat, anyways....

"Well I haven't read the book, so I don't know exactly what Luke tells him that would give him such a good estimate on Vong force, but if he does so, I stand corrected.

On the other hand, Anor was studying the Empire two decades. He should've had a good idea what he was going up against."

So, are you still arguing YV dominance over the Empire, or what?

[Joe]

The Imperial Navy pretty much begins and ends with Pellaeon. In fact, if the Moffs of the Remnant would not cooperate with him in aiding the NR, Pellaeon was prepared to SECEDE from the Remnant and take the Navy with him.

I see, well it's good to see Pellaeon in charge after all those years in the backseat, anyways....

"Well I haven't read the book, so I don't know exactly what Luke tells him that would give him such a good estimate on Vong force, but if he does so, I stand corrected.

On the other hand, Anor was studying the Empire two decades. He should've had a good idea what he was going up against."

So, are you still arguing YV dominance over the Empire, or what?

I honestly don't know. Clearly the Empire is superior to the Vong on paper, but it was also clearly superior to the Rebels on paper. I think there are a lot of intangibles to consider.

[Joe]

Luke, Mara, Jacen and co. go off to the Unknown Regions and The Empire in search of Zonoma Sekot. They go to ask the Empire permission to explore first, and arrive to find the Empire quite frankly getting its butt handed to itself by the Yuuzhan Vong, who have finally attacked it. The Vong take Bastion, killing millions of Imperial citizens and enslaving many more. Pellaeon himself would have likely died had not Luke and co. shown up.

NOOOOOOO!!!! NJO MUST DIE!!! They can't let Bastion fall to alien scum! ARG!

Spoiler alert....




....








Bastion fell, but moving the location of the capital has happened in the past; likely Yaga Minor will be the new captial for now.
And, yes, Pellaeon RULES in this; check out this excerpt as he responds to a Vong transmission/threat as a major scrap is winding down:

...."Broadcast from the enemy, sir," Captain Yage said
"Put it on an open comm," Pellaeon said, "I want everyone to hear this."
"----will but delay the inevitable," Vorrik was saying, spitting out the words with even more of his usual bile. "There will be no mercy. None of you will be spared. Your homes will be razed and your remains will be used as fertilizer for our crops! Your worlds will be absorbed into the glorious Yuuzhan Vong empire as it engulfs the galaxy whole. You will ---" "Maybe I'm missing something, Vorrik," Pellaeon interrupted. "But I'm not seeing any evidence of this great plan of yours. We're destroying your yammosks; we've killed your spies; we're taking back those you thought were captives. You don't have the muscle to take THIS planet, let alone the others. Your threats are as empty as your boasts are shallow."
"You will eat those words when ---"
"Empty," Pellaeon repeated over the commander's renewed tirade.
"---we turn your abominations into slag and ---"
"Empty!"
"---grind every trace of you into the dust from which you were born!"
"EMPTY, Vorrik!", Pelleaon bellowed. The Yuuzhan Vong commander emitted a sound like that of a womp rat being strangled, but he didn't give him the chance to speak. "It's time for you to make good on your promises, commander; either destroy us or get out!"
"By the gods of my people infidel, I promise that you will choke on those words!"
"Maybe one day, Vorrik," Pellaeon said, "but not today. You really should have thought twice about this gambit of yours - especially if you didn't have the resources to pull it off in the first place." In the heartbeat between words he lost all hint of mockery and adopted a cold and serious tone. "We have no intentions of surrendering - not now, not ever. You may win the occasional battle against us, Vorrik, but the Empire will always strike back. THAT I promise you."...................

Why do I get the feeling the next book in this series is going to have a serious can of Imperial whoop-ass in it

Yes man, I'm not a big fan of the Empire, but I almost cheered when he made that speech. And while he was in a bacta tank, too.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

Well you have to remember the Rebels were guerilla fighters, not "rush your enemy 'till hes dead" YV. And big scale combat would pretty much be what the Empire is primed and ready for.

Given, we don't know if the Vong would or could be guerilla fighters. At best they can be spies and sabetuers, but I don't think they really know how to be what the Rebs were.

I guess we'll never really know...

[Joe]

Well you have to remember the Rebels were guerilla fighters, not "rush your enemy 'till hes dead" YV. And big scale combat would pretty much be what the Empire is primed and ready for.

Given, we don't know if the Vong would or could be guerilla fighters. At best they can be spies and sabetuers, but I don't think they really know how to be what the Rebs were.

I guess we'll never really know...

Yuuzhan Vong trickery, spying, and sabotage is outstanding, far greater than that of the Rebels. The Remnant was completely in the dark about the Vong spies nested in fairly high levels of the Imperial Navy until Jacen dealt with them.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

Yuuzhan Vong trickery, spying, and sabotage is outstanding, far greater than that of the Rebels. The Remnant was completely in the dark about the Vong spies nested in fairly high levels of the Imperial Navy until Jacen dealt with them.

Nevermind then, Vong would make good Rebs. But the largest factor in the fall of the Empire, over all else, was Imperial overconfidence. Tarkin had it, and the DS died. Palpatine had it, and the Empire died. At the height of its power it would still be under Palpy's rule though.

So we'd have to pretend the Vong came into the Empire somewhere in the TESB timeframe. Rebs are on the run, and the Pratoerite Vong come plowing into the Empire, and would get their asses handed to them (even the NR beat them!). Tsavong Lah takes the floor, but even he would be no match for the Imperial war machine (so says Anor). Soeventuallythe Vong would be reduced to the Rebellion.

And the only reason the Rebellion won was due to Palpy's fascination with Luke. He has no such delusions of the Vong, and would crush them in one swift stroke. It seems the Vong would die.

[Joe]

Yuuzhan Vong trickery, spying, and sabotage is outstanding, far greater than that of the Rebels. The Remnant was completely in the dark about the Vong spies nested in fairly high levels of the Imperial Navy until Jacen dealt with them.

Nevermind then, Vong would make good Rebs. But the largest factor in the fall of the Empire, over all else, was Imperial overconfidence. Tarkin had it, and the DS died. Palpatine had it, and the Empire died. At the height of its power it would still be under Palpy's rule though.

So we'd have to pretend the Vong came into the Empire somewhere in the TESB timeframe. Rebs are on the run, and the Pratoerite Vong come plowing into the Empire, and would get their asses handed to them (even the NR beat them!). Tsavong Lah takes the floor, but even he would be no match for the Imperial war machine (so says Anor). Soeventuallythe Vong would be reduced to the Rebellion.

And the only reason the Rebellion won was due to Palpy's fascination with Luke. He has no such delusions of the Vong, and would crush them in one swift stroke. It seems the Vong would die.

Imperial overconfidence did not die with the Vong invasion; Pellaeon attributed the fall of Bastion to the failure of the Remnant to take the threat seriously, the same way the NR fell.

That's the only factor, really. The NR surely had the technology and the military prowess to beat the Vong, but they failed since they refused to take the threat seriously. Arrogance and overconfidence has been a fairly consistent feature of the Empire, even in its decline. I don't know if Palpatine would have merely put that aside, but he might have.

Again, I really don't know. It's all hypothetical.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

Imperial overconfidence did not die with the Vong invasion; Pellaeon attributed the fall of Bastion to the failure of the Remnant to take the threat seriously, the same way the NR fell.

That's the only factor, really. The NR surely had the technology and the military prowess to beat the Vong, but they failed since they refused to take the threat seriously. Arrogance and overconfidence has been a fairly consistent feature of the Empire, even in its decline. I don't know if Palpatine would have merely put that aside, but he might have.

Again, I really don't know. It's all hypothetical.

Well I always imagined that the YV would be handled like the Seperatists were (however that was, but probably decisivley) and beaten eventually. You've got to remember that Paplatine wouldn't have any strange obsession with the YV and as such would just treat it like regular old enemy, and maybe deal with it like the Seperatist/Republic war. There will no doubt be some Imperial losses due to such overconfidence, but I think the majority of it will go to swift, decisive blows by the Empire.

Then again, I don't really know either. But the odds seem to be stacked in the Empire's favor.

[CmdrWilkens]

I believe Paelleon's belief and Nom Anor's are both justified. On paper,as Durran mentioned, the Imperial Navy at its height would have crushed the Vong. However just as the OOB speaks volumes so does teh Empire's vulnerability. Because it depends so much on the centralized authority strikes against key C&C locations as well as supply lines and SLOC would have an exponentially greater effect on the Empire when compared against the NR whose decentralized nature left enough independence for grater resistance even without central authority.

[Master of Ossus]

Of course, and Nom Anor is obviously more in touch with the history of the Imperial military than a fucking Grand Admiral...

No, but he IS more informed about the status and number of YV ships in the Galaxy, and he has very good information about the Empire. If you will note, the piddling NR has destroyed a THIRD of all the warriors that the YV brought to the Galaxy. The NR is not as powerful as the Empire, and the Emperor would have moved his forces quickly to the Rim to stop the invasion before it had a chance to get going. The YV needed to stop and re-arm when they arrived, the Emperor would have denied them the ability to do that.

[Joe]

Of course, and Nom Anor is obviously more in touch with the history of the Imperial military than a fucking Grand Admiral...

No, but he IS more informed about the status and number of YV ships in the Galaxy, and he has very good information about the Empire. If you will note, the piddling NR has destroyed a THIRD of all the warriors that the YV brought to the Galaxy. The NR is not as powerful as the Empire, and the Emperor would have moved his forces quickly to the Rim to stop the invasion before it had a chance to get going. The YV needed to stop and re-arm when they arrived, the Emperor would have denied them the ability to do that.

If the NR had been dedicating its full military resources to halting the Vong invasion, yeah that would be a piddling number, but obviously it did not. If anything, given the fairly limited NR military action against the Vong, that number is outstanding.

I think Nom Anor is right in saying that the Vong likely would not have been able to successfully engage the Empire in fullscale combat. The Vong may be brash and reckless, but they are not stupid. Like the Rebel Alliance, they would clearly see that engaging in fullscale combat with an enemy designed to excel in just that would not be the wisest course of action. However, there are more insidious ways of attacking a foe that don't involve combat, and the Vong excel in this area. Palpatine's Empire was not free of internal discord - in fact, too often it seemed that the continued stability of the Empire rested on the continued existence of Palpatine. This is not the sign of a particularly stable Empire.

The Vong would have to seriously alter their course of attack if they wanted to successfully engage the Empire. Even then, I'm not sure they would come out on top. But it would not be a conventional war for the Empire.

[Darth Fanboy]

Vader and the Emperor or any one of their dark side agents would have rooted out potential spies through the force and they would have devised a solution like Alpha Red much sooner and would be willing to use it.

Empre wins any way deciseively and in 3 months

EDIT: missing one vowel I didn't know you got persecuted for every typo you made on the board

If thats the case then, fck you

[Crown]

Vder and the Emperor or any one of their dark side agents would have rooted out potential spies through the force and they would have devied a solution like Alpha Red much sooner and would be willing to use it.

Empre wins any way deciseively and in 3 months

Okay first of all, what do you have against vowels?

But I agree, Paelleon said that they couldn't defeat the Rebellion, and thus used that as an example of how they wouldn't be able to defeat the Vong, but that is a flawed analogy as they opperate in two entirely different ways. The Vong (as they have demonstrated in the NJO) would have been ass-raped by the Empire (at it's height) as would have the Rebellion if they acted like the Vong. But the Vong don't and couldn't opperate like the Rebellion, they needed resources and planets fast. Their worlds ships were dying (mind you this raises the interseting question of why the Vong always attacked habitated planets rather than in habitated ones first, but hey). The point is that the Vong couldn't opperate as the Rebellion, without first setting up homeworlds (while the Rebellion didn't have a homeworld, per-se, they certainly did have worlds which supplied and supported them covertley allowing them opperate), once the Vong set up homeworlds, they would have to defend them against the Empire. Bye-bye Vong.

Destiny's Way was the best NJO order book in my opinion, and one of my favourite EU books ever. It was well written and very entertaining, definetly a keeper, Force Hertic I - Remanent, was okay, but not too spectacular. If ther is one lesson that I took from both books was that Ackbar is da man, by far

[Darth Fanboy]

i think Remnant had its moment now that ive actually read it, but to see the Yevetha killed without getting a good description of the battle would have been nice. As good as it is it almost seems like the writers are trying too hard to bring in every possible thig the EU ever created, the Yevetha, the Ssi Ruuk, and more stuph.

I think once the trilogy is completed we will have a very fine series

[Joe]

I kind of liked how the Yevetha civilization got destroyed in what appeared to be a manner of hours. It shows that the Vong are capable of some serious asskicking, even when weakened.

[CmdrWilkens]

I kind of liked how the Yevetha civilization got destroyed in what appeared to be a manner of hours. It shows that the Vong are capable of some serious asskicking, even when weakened.

Alternatively it shows that the Yevetha's only real strength was their inborn attenuation with engineering since the lack of a weapons program was almost certainly the greatest factor in their inability to put up a fight.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Excuses.

People were claiming the pitiful Remnant would do so much better against the Vong when the Republic had been easily 1000 sectors, and the Remnant is fucking 8.

The Remnant is only pitiful in my eyes because its a bastard confederation of warlords w/ some bueracrats and an officers who took two generations to make captain as a dictator fancying itself as the Empire. Sick. Just let it die if you're going to subject it's memory to that.

Wellthatwas weird. What was claimed there (and not necesarily true) is the Empire at its HEIGHT (ie-TESB era or something) wouldn't have been able to handle the Vong.

He nowhere mentioned the Remnant. Not that I think the Imperials could have beaten the Vong with only their Remnant anyways. But at its HEIGHT, according to Nom Anor, the Empire could've handled the YV.

WERE CLAIMING

Previous thread, not this one.

[Ender]

Just got the book and finished it. Interesting that the Vong pulled a BDZ against Barab 1, and a possible one against N'zoth. They usually look to claim planets, not destroy them. Odd change in tactics. Perhaps it's because Nas Chokta took over?

Personally I'm sorry the Yevetha got wiped out. Ignoring the transparent overtones from the BFC trilogy, I thought they were an interesting species, and could have made a huge difference in this war effort.

[Joe]

Just got the book and finished it. Interesting that the Vong pulled a BDZ against Barab 1, and a possible one against N'zoth. They usually look to claim planets, not destroy them. Odd change in tactics. Perhaps it's because Nas Chokta took over?

Personally I'm sorry the Yevetha got wiped out. Ignoring the transparent overtones from the BFC trilogy, I thought they were an interesting species, and could have made a huge difference in this war effort.

They wouldn't have, though. I doubt they would ally themselves with anyone - if anything, they would prefer to ally with the Vong. Their government was extremely xenophobic.

[Darth Fanboy]

THey just wanted teh Slaves and to eliminate an enemy, their forces couldn't hold an area like that in the deep core since they were spread incredibly thin after Komm Karsh's fleet was killed @ Obroa Skai in Destiny's Way. Karsh's fleet was their last strategic reserve.

Regarding the eMpire vs. the YV. I think the strongest reason the Empire would win would be their sending an immediate response to the presence of the Vong worldships. The NR failed to act before the YV had the worlds they needed to produce more weapons. The EMpire would allow much fewer worlds to fall before acting, and if they had some prior knowledge they wouldn't let one go. Especially if Vader's death squadron or Thrawn's fleet was leading the charge.

[Ender]

They wouldn't have, though. I doubt they would ally themselves with anyone - if anything, they would prefer to ally with the Vong. Their government was extremely xenophobic.

I wasn't thinking in terms of allies, more like in the sense the Empire used tham, bring some on as work crews to upgrade things. Course previously I had also figured that the NR had a fleet in orbit and troops on te ground to keep them from rebuilding, and that turns out it was wrong.

[Darth Fanboy]

Weve got how much longer before Refugee comes out? I'm getting eager now that the NJO books are actually getting decent.