Imperial Army 50+ (sort of RAR)

[Master_Baerne]

Just to catch up with this before it becomes necromancy;

I was thinking of a heavily repulsor- based order of battle partly for high speed manoeuvre in open field conditions, but also ecumenopolis or major city targets. I doubt a treaded or walker vehicle is going to be particularly good at dealing with freedom fighters on the three hundredth floor...hm, there's a cheesy movie to be made in there somewhere. No matter.

Wasn't it discussed earlier that their are systems/environments that may interfere with repulsor vehicles? If so, its not wise to be overly dependent on them.

I'm rather skeptical about the whole "repulsor-dampening environments" thing. I've never heard of such a thing being mentioned in canon, and while the earlier point about tractor beams providing an issue is more reasonable, I sincerely doubt that it would be much of a problem. That is to say, if I had a beam powerful enough to pull a multi-ton hovertank across a field, I could likely to the same thing to a walker of equivalent weight.

Even if particular planet's tricarbon cores emit tachyon pulses that disrupt the quantum alignment of a repulsor field, I'd be willing to bet that the problem would be rare enough to not warrant Army-wide changes in doctrine and equipment. There could, quite reasonably, be a special Non-Repulsor Corps that would be deployed in these cases, while still retaining the vast tactical advantage of repulsorcraft for the rest of the Army.

[The Romulan Republic]

At least some of this has already been smacked down, but since its addressed to me a suppose it would be immpolite not to do so myself

Argh, Explorer just ate a reply-

Romulan, where are you getting 'air force' from? That's a nonexistent branch. Imperial Navy (with the Imperial Starfleet as the main striking formation within that, possibly) Imperial Army in charge of surface operations, Marines, Starfighter Corps. No air force.[/quote[

Then, as has already been said, you're basically creating one, backed up by some artillery. Your idea of armored support seems to be air speeders and gunships.

We see the Imperial Marines use walkers, we see their ancestors use walkers; the Army already seems to be fairly heavily repulsor based.

So? This just shows that while they do use repulsors, they aren't dependent on them (hopefully they have a reason). And its not just walkers as the alternatives. You do know about the wheeled or treaded ground vehicles, right? Like the tanks in Empire at War if game-only units are canon, and those wheeled vehicles they had on Kashyk in RotS?

Besides, repulsor vehicles aren't limitted to light vehicles. You can easily have a real tank with repulsors, but you apparently don't.

Since when was mobility a bad thing? How long do you want ground operations on a battlefield the size of a planet to take? Being able to move freely across the surface of a planet is a good thing- it's a damned sight better than the alternative.

Mobillity is important in modern armies too. But they don't replace their tanks with fighter jets and helicopter gunships. Also, its not like you'd normally have to drop one force on the planet and ask them to advance systematically across the entire planet without additional support. Presumably you could drop mulitple forces in each key area for an all-out conventional attack on a heavily populated world.

The enemy faces the choice of surrendering the overwhelming majority of the planetary surface and trying to make a set piece of it, or dispersing or remaining dispersed in which case they get locally overwhelmed and shot up faster than they can move to support each other.

Or the enemy diggs in in places where you can't use massive bombardments for whatever reason, then laughs as their sheilds stop your repulsors or their point defense guns shread them.

Thirty-two starship- dismembering heavy artillery pieces. One hundred and twenty-eight (thirty-two attached to each regiment) six megaton naval dual-purpose LTL, one hundred and twenty-eight artillery mass drivers. Two hundred and eighty-eight gunships, most of which will be fitted with mass driver missile launchers throwing hundred kiloton rounds. Light, indeed.

Well I was probably refering more to the small size of the vehicles than the firepower they mount. Unless you mount starship-grade sheilds on them I suspect they'll be shreaded by anti-aircraft guns.

What you seem to be implying is that if all your planes mount nukes, you don't need tanks.

There are numerous alternatives and supplements to repulsorlift; some speeder bikes also have a fuel- burning, air breathing jet engine, there's the Mekkun Hoverscout hovercraft, there was Wessell's air-ionising speeder, pursuit swoops- mainly used by the police to catch civilian traffic offenders- have a small ion engine booster backing up their repulsor unit, the speeder Anakin stole in the beginning of AOTC has a very interesting engine setup- looks like a turbojet, labelled as a turbojet in the complete ICS, but the only fuel tank I can find holds deuterium. Either it burns water, or we're looking a a nuclear fusion- electric turbofan.

Fair enough, but don't the unites you refer to (airspeeders and gunships) use repulsorlifts? I'm presuming you do indeed mean Hoth-style airspeeders and LAAT gunships, of course.

However, while there are worlds that have anomalies that interfere with repulsorlift, I feel reasonably certain that most of the places the army will be wanting to fight over will have mass. There's much less of a guarantee of an untainted atmosphere, still less of one that behaves itself and doesn't rain and throw sandstorms at you.

I know their's speculation at least that shields interfere as well.

Just had an interesting thought about droids; assume the vehicle is basically an uprated version- dorsal turret holding light antivehicle weapon and automortar, horns holding repeating blasters- and ditch the B-1s, try this; something like Han Solo's training remote, scaled up to maybe 25-30cm diameter, to mount standard weight pistols. Back those up on a fifty-fifty basis with assassin droid types using a mounted version of the E-11, and how many of them do you think you could get in a three metre by two and a half metre by one and three quarter metre space? Couple of hundred, maybe?

This I like.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The Starfighter Corps is something I'm not sure is sustained by the evidence. We have Soontir Fel go from being a SWO (Space Warfare Officer) on the Dreadnaught-class CH Pride of the Senate to being a naval aviator as the result of a career pothole. Granted they use Army ranks for some reason but they do seem to be naval aviators.

[The Romulan Republic]

Aw shit, I screwed up the quotes. This should remind me to check what I wrote next time.

[Master_Baerne]

Here's the next version of my proposal. Repulsorlifts have been chosen as the drive system of choice, the Navy will, through the Starfighter Corps, provide aerial support, and a general air of "Artillery is the answer to most problems" will be cultivated.

Small Units - See Below
Firegroup (5 soldiers, corporal or sergeant commands)

Squad (20 soldiers; 2 RTCs, 4 firegroups, sergeant commands)

Platoon (100 soldiers; 10 RTCs; 2 light repulsortanks; 10 swoop scouts, lieutenant commands)

Company - See Below [All companies have a Starfighter Corps Atmoshperic Operations Unit of twenty Aethersprite interceptors, ten Starwing fighter-bombers, and ten TIE bombers attached]

Infantry Company (300 soldiers; 30 RTCs; 10 light repulsortanks; 20 swoop scouts; captain commands)

Cavalry Company (150 soldiers; 15 RTCs; 30 combat speeders; 30 swoop scouts; captain commands)

Artillery Company (150 soldiers; 15 RTCs; 10 light repulsorlift artillery; 5 medium repulsorlift artillery; 5 repulsorlift mortars; 5 SPHA-T, captain commands)

Armored Company (200 soldiers; 20 RTCs; 20 light repulsortanks; 10 medium repulsortanks, captain commands)

Engineers Company (200 soldiers; 100 combat engineers; 20 RTCs; 10 engineering vehicles; 1 construction droid; 1 mobile foundry, captain commands)

Special Engineers Company (50 soldiers; 200 combat engineers; 50 siege engineers; 5 RTCs; 30 engineering vehicles; 5 constructions droids, 2 mobile foundries; 1 mobile reactor, captain commands)

Regiment - See Below
Infantry Regiment (4 infantry companies; 1 armored company; 1 artillery company; 1 engineers company, major or lieutenant colonel commands)

Cavalry Regiment (4 cavalry companies [with 20 heavy speeders attached]; 2 armored companies; 1 engineers company, major or lieutenant colonel commands)
Artillery Regiment (3 artillery companies [with a heavy repulsorlift artillery battery of 20 units and a surface-to-orbit missile battery of ten units attached, as well as thermonuclear and concussion weaponry]; 2 infantry companies; 1 armored company; 1 engineers company, major or lieutenant colonel commands)

Armored Regiment (4 armored companies [with 20 heavy repulsortanks attached]; 2 artillery companies; 1 engineers company, major or lieutenant colonel commands)

Brigade - See Below [All brigades have a surface-to-orbit missile battery of forty units, a theatre shield generator system, and a Special Engineers Company attached)

Infantry Brigade (4 infantry regiments; 1 armored regiment; 1 artillery regiment, colonel or brigadier general commands)

Cavalry Brigade ( 4 cavalry regiments; 2 armored regiments, colonel or brigadier general commands)

Artillery Brigade (3 artillery regiments; 3 armored regiments, colonel or brigadier general commands)

Armored Brigade (4 armored regiments; 2 artillery regiments, colonel or brigadier general commands)

Division - See Below [All divisions have a Fortress Group of three prefabricated garrisons and a surface-to-space missile battery of twenty-five units attached]

Infantry Division (4 infantry brigades, 1 artillery brigade, 1 armored brigade, major general commands)

Armored Division (4 armored regiments, 2 artillery regiments, major general commands)

Corps - See Below
Infantry Corps (6 infantry divisions, lieutenant general commands)

Armored Corps (6 armored divisions, lieutenant general commands)

Army - At this point, no distinction is made between service branches. XXI Army may be composed entirely of armored corps, but it will not be called an armored army, for example. List strength for an army may differ from actual composition of units in the field, to a much greater extend than smaller formations.
(6 infantry corps; 6 armored corps, general commands)

Army Group (6 armies, marshal commands)

Theatre or Campaign Command (10 army groups, surface marshal commands)

New Equipment and Doctrine Changes:
RTC - Repulsorlift Troop Carrier, APC-type device intended to carry ten troopers to and from battle. Mounts a trio of repeating laser cannons and an antivehicle missile launcher, as well as a full electronics suite for managing communications with soldiers and other vehicles and a rocket launcher for destroying light fortifications)

Swoop Scout - Two-man vehicle with a light blaster cannon and extensive scanning devices.

Repulsorlift Artillery
Light Repulsorlift Artillery, a blocky vehicle carrying a projectile launcher and two heavy laser cannons. If authorized at regiment level, may carry nuclear or proton weapons.
Medium Repulsorlift Artillery, a larger version of the LRA, in effect. Mounts a light turbolaser and two 150 mm howitzers.
Heavy Repulsorlift Artillery, mounts a double light turbolaser turret and a railgun, as well as two heavy missile launchers.

Repulsorlift Mortars - Air-mobile 200 mm mortar equipped with a variety of shell types. Carries a shield generator for added protection, as well as a turreted repeating blaster.

Repulsortanks
Light Repulsortanks - Floating tank carrying a heavy laser cannon, an anti-material rocket launcher, and a shield generator.
Medium Repulsortanks - Floating tank carrying two heavy laser cannons, an ultralight turbolaser intended to destroy other shielded tanks, three missile launchers, and a shield generator.
Heavy Repulsortanks - Floating tank intended to withstand starfighter-grade weapons, mounts a railgun and a light turbolaser in a double turret, as well as three repeating blasters and a powerful shield generator.

Surface-to-Orbit Missile Launcher - Large mass driver intended to launch missiles high enough into the atmosphere for their drives to activate without frying friendly troops. Is intended to carry capital ship-grade warheads on a missile with enough fuel to reach orbit quickly but not much beyond that.

Surface-to-Space Missile Launcher - As above, but the mass driver throws the missile into orbit before drive activation and the missiles themselves are intended to reach past the planet's high obitals.

Standard Weapons: From now on, infantrymen will carry a E-17 blaster rifle, a long, high-powered weapon that can, if needed, have it's barrel replaced to make it slightly longer than the E-11. In addition, three thermal detonators and a signal flare will be included in each troopers basic kit. Armor of equivalent strength to that of the Stormtrooper Corps will be worn in all combat situations, but with appropriate camouflage patterns applied.

Support Weapons: Each squad will contain ten standard troopers, five automatic weapons troopers, one E-Web crew, and three missile troopers.

Doctrine will focus, where practicable, on rapid assaults behind armored spearheads covered by conventional artillery bombardment where collateral damage is deemed a concern, and by orbital, thermonuclear, and chemical weaponry where not.

Air cover will be provided by the Starfighter Corps Atmospheric Operations Units attached at company level.

[Illuminatus Primus]

10 TIE Bombers, 10 Starwings, and 20 Aethersprites to a company? What's the point of the infantry when you basically have the support staff and base security for mass-extinction-capable mini-SAC?

Also, I think the rank structure needs to be "stretched"; the staff at Army Command shouldn't be a bunch of Ultra Super High Nth Degree Marshals. With Surface Marshal at least a sectorial garrison rank, you're looking at realistically hundreds of Army Groups to a Surface Marshal. I mean, a sector could boast a Coruscant-type member world or large space habitats. With populations easily in the quadrillions for some well-populated sectors and possibly hundreds of member states calling a sector home, and tens of thousands or more other polities, for a total of possibly tens to hundreds of thousands of at least minorly inhabited systems in a sector of tens of millions of systems. God knows what wartime, galactic strategic commands look like.

[Master_Baerne]

Excellent points. I don't know how to go about the rank adjustments, but would an air strength of 10 Aethersprites, 2 TIE bombers, and three Starwings be more reasonable?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Excellent points. I don't know how to go about the rank adjustments, but would an air strength of 10 Aethersprites, 2 TIE bombers, and three Starwings be more reasonable?

Do you consider the fact that the effective wattage output of the Aethersprite's engines at max acceleration can easily be in many megatons per second? I don't think company-level formations need the weight of having to have organic aerospace support, especially of the easily mass-extinction-causing kind. Furthermore, you're giving any company in the Empire also hypercapable organic support. You need to ask if this is something all your companies really need in order for them to accomplish their typical mission. Furthermore, it would also give the Army more aerospace support relative to its manpower than the Navy itself (consider that an Imperator-class Star Destroyer embarks only a wing of organic fighter support with a pittance of gunboat, shuttle, assault transport, and blastboat support, but represents a relatively important asset (only 24 Imperators is considered sufficient for a minimum naval garrison for a Sector) and has nearly 40,000 complement).

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

I recall from reading Gleitman in basic psych that the human working memory has a total of seven addresses, for the high majority of people, plus or minus two in rare cases; and I think this has a lot to do with span of command- how many subunits a commander can efficiently control.

Those seven addresses, one for your own ass (or the chain of command above you), one for the enemy, five available for subunits- that's the running capacity of the brain at a limit, and means the span of command is generally the five remaining open slots in working memory; could be three, could be as high as seven but you don't want to design a structure that way, there are too few people capable of taking advantage of it.

If we're talking about 'people' rather than specifically 'humans', other races may be able to do better, some are probably worse, droids ought to be able to have a much larger span of command with the right architecture, and there may be a cultural component in that figure anyway- but going with what seems to be the case now is as good a place as any to start with, and that unfortunately does mean a highly tiered command structure.

I'd like to revive the old French rank of General of Division, it makes decriptive sense and means we don't have to call a divisional commander a High Colonel; that leaves Major-Generals in charge of 4- division Corps, Lieutenant-Generals in charge of 16- division Armies, and full Generals in charge of 64- division Army Groups, above that- I'd prefer to call a 256- division formation a Front (old Soviet term, it's distinct at least) under a Grand General, a 1024-division formation a Theatre Army under a Vice-Marshal, a 4096- division formation a Strategic Direction under a Marshal, a number of Strategic Directions constitute a Sector Army under a Sector Marshal- could be around sixty-four thousand divisions- and multiple Sector Armies constitute a Grand Army, the stress of doing the paperwork for that alone probably kills several staff officers a second.

Aerospace component, I went for a division-wing equivalence, four regiments each with a light ground support squadron- TIE/gt probably- and two squadrons of more capable craft held at divisional level for limited defence against spacecraft and enemy starfighters. Attach them at too low a level and you have too much duplication of support personnel and hardware- it becomes about the fighters- and too much chance of having them squandered through misuse, under the tactical control of personnel whose heads are altready buzzing with trying to control their existing commands and don't have head-space free for starfighter tactics.

Should there be surface, tread and foot based, siege divisions with the kit needed to push through shielding?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Sadly "Grand General" appears to be a Grand Admiral like rank. Though the utility of such a rank is questionable, aside from the fact the actual Army analogue of a Grand Admiral is a Field Marshal General. And I think while you have a point for basic psychology, I think the amount of fairy tale and arbitrary competence in SW implies some kind of black box assistance in a lot of human organizational and bureaucratic matters. Simply layering enough above our primitive Earth experience seems to create an absurd number of degrees of separation.

[Master_Baerne]

Right. I'm clearly out of my depth here, so I'll just content myself with the role of Information Collater.

One thing, though - Would the dropships for infantry units possibly be able to pull double duty as helicopter gunship-type units? I'm not familiar with the Imperial Army's canon equipment, and it seems like a reasonable assumption. Given that no Army unit can deploy without some form of aerospace transport, would it be simpler to combine the deployment mechanism and the air support?

[Ender]

Excellent points. I don't know how to go about the rank adjustments, but would an air strength of 10 Aethersprites, 2 TIE bombers, and three Starwings be more reasonable?

Do you consider the fact that the effective wattage output of the Aethersprite's engines at max acceleration can easily be in many megatons per second? I don't think company-level formations need the weight of having to have organic aerospace support, especially of the easily mass-extinction-causing kind.

That's not really a valid criticism as any two bit smuggler who gets their hand on a starship has that power. We also know from Bespin and Geonosis and Cato Nemodia that the engines are not used in that fashion. Aethersprites are a bad call because of limited utility in ground support, not because of engine power.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Excellent points. I don't know how to go about the rank adjustments, but would an air strength of 10 Aethersprites, 2 TIE bombers, and three Starwings be more reasonable?

Do you consider the fact that the effective wattage output of the Aethersprite's engines at max acceleration can easily be in many megatons per second? I don't think company-level formations need the weight of having to have organic aerospace support, especially of the easily mass-extinction-causing kind.

That's not really a valid criticism as any two bit smuggler who gets their hand on a starship has that power. We also know from Bespin and Geonosis and Cato Nemodia that the engines are not used in that fashion. Aethersprites are a bad call because of limited utility in ground support, not because of engine power.

"Not used in that manner"? By what mechanism? And clearly pure reaction drive performance need not be at maximum when repulsorlifts can be employed close to a planet or you're concerned about collateral damage. What I'm getting at is not that it is accessible (clearly it is, such as the Falcon) - and clearly there must be very common robust ways of managing it (I think shielding of many types is much more common, for example) -, but rather that is an infantry company's typical roles really a fit with mass extinction organic aerospace support? I can see that being possible for some types of expeditionary brigades, certainly, but I don't with companies. Maybe there's an angle I'm missing.

[PainRack]

Right. I'm clearly out of my depth here, so I'll just content myself with the role of Information Collater.

One thing, though - Would the dropships for infantry units possibly be able to pull double duty as helicopter gunship-type units? I'm not familiar with the Imperial Army's canon equipment, and it seems like a reasonable assumption. Given that no Army unit can deploy without some form of aerospace transport, would it be simpler to combine the deployment mechanism and the air support?

Depends. The Stormtrooper transport and Assault transports are heavily armed and equipped...... Similarly, there were modified scimatr assault bombers with the ability to carry a small squad of troops.

And of course, there's the infamous LAATs......

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

The Stormtrooper and Assault Transports, and the Escort Transport and Assault Shuttle, are Marine craft used for space to space as much or more than space to surface; they're interstellar capable, warhead equipped apart from the assault shuttle, used to back up bomber squadrons in antiship strike as well as boarding action.

As dropships, they have the serious handicap of no vehicle lift capability beyond speeder bikes- they have the power and structural strength for it, no question, but it's the lack of holes in the hull that are the problem. As infantry transports to the battlefield, tremendous overkill.

The standard armour deployment types, http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Category ... ip_classes- most seem to be self defending at best, one or two twin laser turrets, the only one that seems to be well armed is the giant Telgorn Warlord capable of carrying 4 AT-ATs or similar class vehicles, but that has it's own problems in terms of relying on an ablative coating that needs to be reapplied, seriously slowing down the deployment cycle. The Corellian CR20 and CR25 are protected by LTL, but with worryingly small payloads for their stated size.

The LAAT is the jewel of the bunch, really; well armed, relatively fast- but the ICS gives it a seriously reduced battlefield endurance, eight hours, no more. Although given that the weapons are probably fusion powered because of the sheer energy they're putting out, and it is supposed to be repulsor driven, what the 'eight hours flying fuel' is about I really have no idea at this point.

It was also deployed by the clone troopers which despite being the grand army of the republic, later became the stormtroopers, aka Imperial Marines. Is this a consistent doctrinal difference? The army believes in land, release, leave, and the marines use their dropships as organic air support? The lack of defence on some of the dropships used for the marines' heavy walkers indicates it's a fuzzy line at best.

Although it does make a kind of sense. The army wants to get to ground and get on with it, the marines take a more vertical view, space-air-land. Running dropships as tactical support means they're going to accumulate wear, use ordnance and fuel, and take casualties- bad things, if you want to preserve their usability as dropships. The marines institutionally tend to think its worth the cost, and the army don't- but if they don't always get their own way and sometimes get saddled with kit originally intended for the army, that makes sense of the fuzzy line.

Is the Imperial Army wrong on this? Not with the kit they have- but that kit was built to suit the theory. It's pointless trying to use most of the existing designs for close support, they're ludicrously large and easy targets.

So, we need a new generation of dropships.

[Master_Baerne]

Perhaps a two-part design? There could be a gunship piggy-backed onto a more traditional dropship. The carrier dropship would power the gunship's weapons on the way down, since it would have a larger reactor, the gunship would provide weaponry for the dropship on the way down to the surface, and they could separate once the troops on the dropship were deployed - The dropship for another load, since any enemy fighters would have been destroyed on the way down, and the gunship portion to provide support for the recently-disembarked troops.

Actually, that's probably a bad idea. But it's thought, nonetheless.

[Ender]

That's not really a valid criticism as any two bit smuggler who gets their hand on a starship has that power. We also know from Bespin and Geonosis and Cato Nemodia that the engines are not used in that fashion. Aethersprites are a bad call because of limited utility in ground support, not because of engine power.

"Not used in that manner"?

When have we seen starships intentionally used as r-bombs or using full engine power in atmosphere? Despite the fact they can be, it appears that people are very cautious not to do so.

By what mechanism?

Does it matter? Something is keeping the opposing force from using their ships as weapons themselves. I suppose it could be good idiot proof engineering, but I expect it is more a matter of forces neutralizing this ability in some fashion, even if it is only a tacit MAD style agreement or an actively armed aggressive force.

And clearly pure reaction drive performance need not be at maximum when repulsorlifts can be employed close to a planet or you're concerned about collateral damage. What I'm getting at is not that it is accessible (clearly it is, such as the Falcon) - and clearly there must be very common robust ways of managing it (I think shielding of many types is much more common, for example) -, but rather that is an infantry company's typical roles really a fit with mass extinction organic aerospace support? I can see that being possible for some types of expeditionary brigades, certainly, but I don't with companies. Maybe there's an angle I'm missing.

The idea about structuring your military is twofold - efficient operation of it by your side, and adequate to counter the opposing force. If the opposing force, be it a galactic grade military or a two bit thief, has the ability to create a ecological extinction event, then you equip your opposing force in a fashion to counter that. I suppose you could have a heavy platoon with mini proton torpedo launchers to shoot anything down, but I suspect an interception force may be more effective. theater shields may do the trick, but that is dependent on having them in the area and active. Though Gungan forces suggest that this is easier than maintaining fighter craft, that may be a case of available resources to the civilization rather than being a truism of war.