TIEs have shields

[Ender]

Umm, dude. I'm not restricting to novels. "Official" involves all of those tech guides and things.
TEGWT page 88 describes the laser's interaction with the blaster gas, for example.

As I recall, it says that the gas amplifies the laser beam. Thus it is still consistent that it is a laser.

BTW, your reference to Curtis' book is a bit off. You do realize that his ICS book is official, and carries the same weight as any other "Official" source, don't you?

I was referring to the SWTC. However, that part of ICS is the sole contradicting part of the rest of the EU. Without that, the EU is very consistent in that Hyperspace is anotehr dimension (Traitor, last book of the BFC, Star by Star)

[His Divine Shadow]

Well to be fair, it sounds like hyperbole.
And I would pretty much see the FTL universe to be a different realm of sorts too.

[Ender]

You want another? Okay, http://www.babtech-onthe.net/starwars/tieshields3.avi
It appears that in this video, this damaged TIE takes three more hits before it is destroyed.

If the TIE is already heavily damaged, shouldn't it's shields already be down?

[Brian Young]

You'd think so. But it still takes three hits before it explodes.
Interesting, huh? Not only is it damaged, it is on fire.

Someone, Edam IIRC, said that these videos show the same fighter. That isn't true. Read my initial statement. The first fighter is immediately before Luke destroys his second (most likely this one), and the last is immediately before Han destroys his second one, which is the last one around.
So, of the first 4 TIEs we ever see in action, at least two of them have shields.

[Illuminatus Primus]

You want another? Okay, http://www.babtech-onthe.net/starwars/tieshields3.avi
It appears that in this video, this damaged TIE takes three more hits before it is destroyed.

I have gone through ANH and ROTJ, and I've seen nothing that indicates any major differences in the defenses of TIEs and X-Wings.

Really?

That video shows multiple hits after it has been damaged...would the shields not be down if they were damaged and flaming?

Would there be shields on the Interceptor Wedge killed with a single dual shot?

The Interceptors the Falcon destroys in single shot?

I don't see any evidence to suppose all TIEs have shielding more or less in equal to X-Wings.

Perhaps TIEs with shields are optional for certain commands like Death Squadron and the Death Star?

Perhaps certain TIE varients have shields while others do not, the "factory-built is EU TIE" theory?

[Lord Edam]

Edam, you assume that it can only happen from a set distance from the shields, this does not have to be so, it appears to be totally random occurance that might or might not happen when passing through the outer layers of a shield.

Surely, if the shields reduce gradually with distance from the ship, as seems to be the case, you would expect the effects of the shields to increase the deeper you got, rather than, as we see here, getting less the deeper you are, then re-appearing on the very surface of the craft.


There is at least one (and very possibly two, depending of your opinion of the bolt down the centre in frames 16/17/18) explosions a great distance behind the fighter Brian has shown us. They appear to be identical to the "shield" splashes - yet they are clearly nowhere near the shields when they occur. This, coupled with the fact that bolts closer to the craft are not affected when those further away are would seem to suggest that the effect are not shields

also note, these are not that different to the explosions we get some distance from the AT-ATs in ESB, yet there is absolutely zero indication AT-ATs are shielded.

All this combined would seem to suggest some form of "proximity" or "range" setting in the weapons, possibly a result of the disruption of the invisible portion of the beam, but far from proof of shields.

and now, to veer off on to the topic of agendas. We all have agendas. We all want to convince others that our idea of Star Wars is the right one, but that isn't reason enough to write off objectors as trolls, idiots or (in the case of Vs boards like this one, where people can't help but bring their prejudices into the pure discussions) "from the other side"

Brian, I know you took two seperate clips from the film, but watch them. If you knock the first frame off one of the clips they are frame for frame identical, and as such can't be used to claim two seperate fighters have shields.

[Brian Young]

Anyway's as was pointed out to me, the TIE's in question did seem to be not specially sent to get the Falcon, so this would seem to indicate that the adding of shields to TIE's, whilst not universal, is not uncommon.

Thats my stance anyway and it fits with official and canon evidence.

Then we are now in agreemant. Thank you.

I wonder...
I can only show that two of the four had shields. I am not canon purist, but I do lean that direction, using Official sources only as supporting evidence for canon in both B5 and Star Wars. But in that old RPG, TIEs were organized into pairs. One leader, one wingman. I wonder if the TIEs carrying NCOs have shields, and the ones carrying non-officers are unshielded...

So far, we have canon evidence that at least three TIEs sustain multiple hits before exploding. Most of the time, they explode with one hit. But those one hits are usually from larger weapons than the Falcon's quadguns, or take two or more barrels. In ROTJ, there are 2-3 (?) that explode from one hit from one barrel. They are always, IIRC, TIE Interceptors hit from behind.
Just a few interesting observations.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Here is a good example of near misses triggering bursts without actually hitting a shield.



Thanks to HDS!

[Brian Young]

Brian, I know you took two seperate clips from the film, but watch them. If you knock the first frame off one of the clips they are frame for frame identical, and as such can't be used to claim two seperate fighters have shields.

I am aware of the similarities. The only difference I can detect is that one is slightly brighter than the other. But the TIE in the first clip was destroyed fractions of a second later. There is no way it can be the same fighter in the second clip.

[Brian Young]

Here is a good example of near misses triggering bursts without actually hitting a shield.



Thanks to HDS!

The gunship is also shielded. I suppose you were unaware of this.

[Durandal]

Oh, Brian, the Falcon's escape was engineered by Vader. It makes sense that he'd put TIE's out there with shielding in order to make their escape more challenging and thus, convincing.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I wonder...
I can only show that two of the four had shields. I am not canon purist, but I do lean that direction, using Official sources only as supporting evidence for canon in both B5 and Star Wars. But in that old RPG, TIEs were organized into pairs. One leader, one wingman. I wonder if the TIEs carrying NCOs have shields, and the ones carrying non-officers are unshielded...

Ok, that is settled. I'm sorry for being so confrontational but I've dealt with so many stupid canon purists at TF.net that I get easily aggrivated when I think someones trying to take evidence to bash official sources for the sake of their personal opinion, and worse, telling others we should also bow down to that.

So far, we have canon evidence that at least three TIEs sustain multiple hits before exploding. Most of the time, they explode with one hit. But those one hits are usually from larger weapons than the Falcon's quadguns, or take two or more barrels. In ROTJ, there are 2-3 (?) that explode from one hit from one barrel. They are always, IIRC, TIE Interceptors hit from behind.
Just a few interesting observations.

IIRC.

We have Wedge kill an Interceptor from behind with a dual burst; one hit.

We have a Y-Wing kill an Interceptor from behind with an unknown burst; one hit.

We have Tycho's A-Wing kill an Interceptor from behind; two single shots (IIRC), but they were too close together for me to tell if the first didn't kill it.

The Falcon kills at least 2 or 3 Interceptors from behind with single shots.

We have an already damaged TIE/ln take several hits before exploding a(from unknown source?). Oddly it was already damaged, but apparently this craft was indeed shielded.

We have no evidence from TESB, since I don't think any asteroid didn't instantly pulverize the TIE/ln's in pursuit.

In ANH we have two or three TIE Starfighters get destroyed from very rapid bursts from an X-Wing (I can't tell how many shots actually vaporized them).

In the chase scene we have multiple near misses trigger light flashes, but I'm not quite sure whether one of those occured in line of sight between the gun and the body of the fighter, so it is possible that they could have been these light flashes triggered by standard navigation shields.

Here is a good example of near misses triggering bursts without actually hitting a shield.

The gunship is also shielded. I suppose you were unaware of this.

No. I am well-aware. But the shield is irrelevent: the energy "bleed-off" caused by the shields is no more than a kg or two worth of TNT and certainly within the tolerance limits of SW navigation shielding, when actual defensive shielding is in the kiloton range. ALL SW spacecraft have navigation shielding to protect from radiation and debris and such. We've observed volumetric shielding causing bleed-off from near misses before. If those blasts in the chase scene were near-misses, than it is possible that the security shields triggered bleed-off heat/light bursts just like the gunships' defensive shielding. Notice how much greater the defensive shielding's area of influence is than the TIE's supposed shield. Perhaps related to defensive vs. navigation shielding?

I'm simply speculating.

Oh, Brian, the Falcon's escape was engineered by Vader. It makes sense that he'd put TIE's out there with shielding in order to make their escape more challenging and thus, convincing.

Oh I forgot about that. Regardless of whether they were patrolling or not they were still sent to intercept the Falcon before it leaves. Also being sent on a suicide/hoax mission, the pilots probably would be better disciplined to take fire and not destroy the Falcon if they had shields.

[Mad]

You want another? Okay, http://www.babtech-onthe.net/starwars/tieshields3.avi
It appears that in this video, this damaged TIE takes three more hits before it is destroyed.

Off-topic, but it looks like the three hits to that TIE were fired from that Mon Cal in the background, especially that final hit.

The shot also has that X-wing making a pretty big explosion against that Star Destroyer's bridge, doing damage to the hull.

A bit more on topic, there's a shot in ESB where an AT-AT's leg gets hit by Rebel fire and splashes against the hull with a wraparound effect very similar to the shield effect when the Falcon gets knocked off axis later in the movie. Evidence for AT-AT's having shields?

Totally back on topic, one piece of speculation I've seen thrown around for this scene a while back was that the TIEs have forward shield projectors, but no rear shield projectors. Under this speculation (there is no solid evidence for it), the TIE's have forward shields to protect against random debris and to increase survivability in head-on attack runs, and discourages running away since their afts are unprotected. Usually when a TIE is destroyed, it's from a shot to the rear. The only other head-on kill I can recall off-hand is Wedge firing a dual-linked shot into the front of a TIE, and that one almost looked like a head-on collision.

I've never supported this idea, but since it wasn't mentioned I figured I'd toss it in.

Another idea is that they have weak nav-deflector shielding. Not enough to protect against a direct hit, but enough to protect against space debris and glancing hits. Sort of like how stormtrooper armor is described. Most of the shield interactions we see in that scene are non-hits, anyway. The hits against the hull would be explained as being glancing enough to be deflected away enough to not cause any serious damage.

And the other commonly thrown idea was, of course, flak-bursts. (Then again, flak-bursts that don't do any damage are kind of useless.)

Does anyone have the script available? I checked out a site claiming to have an ANH draft script (red6.tk, a site linked to from Wong's link page, though it has moved from the link he has), and the draft mentioned that a TIE had received a minor hit. I don't know how authentic this draft is, though.

[Illuminatus Primus]

It's probably a combination of all of these.

Factory-built baseline TIE Starfighters and TIE/ln's have no defensive shields save for basic navigation shields.

However, there are provisions for add-ons (like the Slave 1 "expansion grid" for future hardware) for adding shields, additional comm/sensor equipment, larger power generators to allow the craft to haul more armor with the same engines, or more fuel for longer-range patrols.

And any combination thereof, such as the "forward shields for increased head-on survivability," etc.

TIE/ln and Starfighter officers may be often issued shielded craft, to increase survivability and ensure the cohesiveness of a unit by making it harder to put the commander out of the sky.

Some commands and installations might be issued special TIEs. Death Squadron and the Death Stars might have more standard-issue shielded TIEs than the average assignment.

Perhaps after Endor, more and more pilots, including officers, were simply thrown into a basic fresh-from-the-factory mod-less TIE with no shields and little armor, thus producing the horrid attrition rate seen in the X-Wing novels, etc.

[Cal Wright]

How many "Official" sources claim that turbolasres are plasma guns, lasers, etc.? They even conflict with each other.

Actually, the EU is pretty consistent in calling them lasers, or coherent light.

To bad they're not coherent on storyline based against the OT. I'm sorry, I just had to put that jab in there. HDS is gonna have a hissy fit now. Heh.

How many "Official" sources claim that the Millennium Falcon's top speed is 1.5c?

Not a single one. They say it has a 1.5 hyperdrive rating, but all say it does not go 1.5 c

Actually, isn't it a Point 5 hyperdrive rating. In this most Trektards claim the Falcon 'The fastest hunk of junk in the galaxy' can only travel 1.5c? That's a nitpick I know, but still, just to clarify for anyone later on.

How many "Official" sources claim that Executor is 5 miles long?

Just about all of them.[/quote]


And it's shit faced. The errors are glaring.

Umm, dude. I'm not restricting to novels. "Official" involves all of those tech guides and things.
TEGWT page 88 describes the laser's interaction with the blaster gas, for example.
BTW, your reference to Curtis' book is a bit off. You do realize that his ICS book is official, and carries the same weight as any other "Official" source, don't you?

Personally, the ICS and Visual Dictionary carry MORE weight. That's right, your run of the mill NJO novel falls below that as far as I see. Why? The ICS and Visual Dictionary take thier information from the movies. They are there to support and explain the movies. The novels are just asshat stories that follow thier own line. If a novel came out and claimed that 200GT's was unheard of in weaponary, who do you think I would go with, the novel, which more than likely I will detest, or the ICS which works with the movies, and as you can tell, has someone who calculated onscreen evidence?

That's enough of my thread hijack.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

I like the forward shield idea.

[His Divine Shadow]

Surely, if the shields reduce gradually with distance from the ship, as seems to be the case, you would expect the effects of the shields to increase the deeper you got, rather than, as we see here, getting less the deeper you are, then re-appearing on the very surface of the craft.

The chance of it happening would probably increase the closer it got to the surface of the shield, but would not guarantee it.

also note, these are not that different to the explosions we get some distance from the AT-ATs in ESB, yet there is absolutely zero indication AT-ATs are shielded

Atmospheric interaction is more likely I think, and it would be a very very weak system that only allows a miniscule fraction of the bolts energy to "flak".

[His Divine Shadow]

On the note of canonicity rankings, the ICS does carry more weight than an EU novel, since the ICS is based on the movie, while an EU novel is much "farther" away from the movies.

[Cal Wright]

Well:
1: Were these fighters already out on patrol duty or just had been sent after the Falcon (just to be sacrificied)? Which direction did they come from ?

'We're coming up on thier sentry ships. Angle the deflector to hold them off while I charge up the main gun'- Han, ANH

2: Did any other Tie show evidence of shielding (especially the more modern Interceptors)?

A flaming out of control TIE Fighter showed this as it was barreling towards an ISD bridge tower. Either a TIE Fighter that is awashed in flames can handle more shots than an X-Wing we KNOW is shielded, or somehow the presence of sheilds were still in effect.

3: Can blaster bolts explode by themselves?

Your new right?

4: Did the Falcon hit Vader's second wingman or that Tie only tried to dodge?

The first TIE was blasted into kingdom come, the second fucked up.

5: Could the quad-guns of the Falcon be upgraded between ANH and TESB?

No. That is virtually impossible. Solo only had 17,000 credits to work with. There is no chance in hell he could possibly do anything with that money. smirk. Everyone has a trial by fire. You are now ordained in the ways of the board.

[Cal Wright]

Brian, I know you took two seperate clips from the film, but watch them. If you knock the first frame off one of the clips they are frame for frame identical, and as such can't be used to claim two seperate fighters have shields.

So your saying that if they use the same clip in the movie twice, it is the SAME TIE Fighter? Oh my god. I thought we could all escape it's presence on this sabbath day. A day of rest. A day of peace and prayer. But no, look over the horizon! There it is. It's coming. Your patience is most appreciated for here it is. The one phrase that has downed so many nitwit statements. Here it comes...


BULL-FUCKING-SHIT

So because they used the same film sequence in both Star Trek 6 and Star Trek Generations to show a Klingon Bird of Prey exploding, then it's the same god damned ship, and we can't use it as fucking evidence?!? There were four TIEs, we see two TIEs taking said flak hits showing some evidence of sheilds. (Either that or the Charmin Tissue Hulls are a rare breed), but this can not be evidence of two SEPERATE TIEs. Geez kid, go back to Scooter's site.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Well:
1: Were these fighters already out on patrol duty or just had been sent after the Falcon (just to be sacrificied)? Which direction did they come from ?

'We're coming up on thier sentry ships. Angle the deflector to hold them off while I charge up the main gun'- Han, ANH

Yes but Vader was already planning these fighters as a show. Remember Leia's dialogue afterward, "they let us get away?" Even if they were sentries, they'd been dispatched with probably the mission to put on a good show of trying to stop the Falcon.

[Cal Wright]

Or that they were just sentry ships, and the 'It was to easy' line also supports that Tarkin took Vader's advice and didn't send any additional fighters. Not to mention the Death Star itself is a mobile station littered with turbolaser emplacements.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Or that they were just sentry ships, and the 'It was to easy' line also supports that Tarkin took Vader's advice and didn't send any additional fighters. Not to mention the Death Star itself is a mobile station littered with turbolaser emplacements.

You can't discount the possibility since the whole thing was a set up.

[Lord Poe]

BULL-FUCKING-SHIT

So because they used the same film sequence in both Star Trek 6 and Star Trek Generations to show a Klingon Bird of Prey exploding, then it's the same god damned ship, and we can't use it as fucking evidence?!?

You can't really blame him. Most "Trektards" (I love that name!) try to convince themselves and others that DS9 didn't repeatedly miss Klingon warships over and over again with torpedoes because the same clip was used two or three times in "Way Of The Warrior"

http://h4h.com/louis/trekmiss.rm

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Or that they were just sentry ships, and the 'It was to easy' line also supports that Tarkin took Vader's advice and didn't send any additional fighters. Not to mention the Death Star itself is a mobile station littered with turbolaser emplacements.

You can't discount the possibility since the whole thing was a set up.

Why would it be a set-up?