Legacy ending

[Havok]

Don't you fucking troll me Stark!

[Stofsk]

I am - are you? You quoted Yoda saying 'Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will' as if it's supposed to mean something set in stone. Then Luke proves Yoda wrong. Thereby proving Yoda's lesson is a fucking metaphor.

Are you so fucking stupid that you can't see what I'm arguing?

No numbnuts. I get what you are trying to say. I'm saying you are wrong. Yoda has been a Jedi for almost 900 years and has been training them for 800. He KNOWS what happens when you start down the dark path. He isn't guessing. He isn't taking a stab in the dark. Luke's 'defiance' of this fact doesn't mean Yoda's lesson is a fucking 'metaphor' (metaphor for what exactly?), it just shows how exceptional Luke actually is. He is the sole person that can defy what Yoda says. The exception that proves the rule, if you will. So then, when every other Jedi and his fucking mom does the exact same thing in the EU, it not only cheapens the movies themselves, but it completely diminishes Luke's accomplishments and makes them mundane and par for the course.

I wasn't arguing in favour of the EU. I don't really care about the majority of it.

I am arguing strictly from a movies-only perspective. Luke is not the exception that proves the rule, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to redeem Vader.

Are you even reading what you write? Either Yoda's line is meant to be taken literally, and therefore Luke would have fallen to the dark side, or it wasn't, which is why Luke realises what he's becoming in that final duel, and has the clarity of mind to reject the dark side utterly - despite having used it seconds ago.

My fucking gawd. It is like your brain doesn't even work. The line IS supposed to be taken literally. A-fucking-gain... LUKE IS THE SOLE PERSON THAT HAS THE POWER AND STRENGTH TO OVERCOME FALLING TO THE DARK SIDE EVEN THOUGH HE DID INDEED GIVE INTO HIS ANGER AND START DOWN THE DARK PATH. IT IS WHY HE IS SPECIAL. IT IS WHY HE CAN STAVE OFF THE EMPEROR, WHERE EVEN THE CHOSEN ONE COULD NOT.

Then explain how Luke redeemed Vader numbnuts. If Yoda's correct then Vader wouldn't have been redeemed. Unless of course this was the plan all along.

Oh damnit Strofsk. OK... look at it this way, what Yoda says, applies to 99.99% percent of anyone who ever was, is or will be become a Jedi. Luke is the .01%, so for all intents and purposes, what Yoda says is a literal fact and is not wrong. It applies to every Jedi in existence EVER, EXCEPT Luke.

Ok, you keep saying Luke is that .01% for whom this rule doesn't apply - but you don't bother explaining how or why. You just say he's special. Why?

UNLESS you read the garbage that is the EU, and then EVERY Jedi seems to be able to do this. Are you getting it yet?

I've read some of it, I don't care for the vast majority of it. This is tangential discussion about the movies. I haven't brought up the EU in anything I've written.

Conceded on the point about Yoda giving the same spiel in RotJ as he had in ESB. But it doesn't necessarily change my point.

No, Luke proved that HE could do it. And again, he gave into his anger for all of about 20 seconds, and was able to come back. The dickheads in the EU destroy solar systems and use Force Lightning and actively and openly call on the Dark Side for years and they can still come back... Do you see the fucking difference? Do you not understand 'The EU cheapens the movies'?

I do not care about the EU, other than a few isolated examples. I'm having a movies-only discussion with you. If you want me to agree with you that the worst of the EU cheapens the movies, I'll agree with you. I haven't defended the EU at any point in this argument.

Despite that, my point has been if Yoda is right then it doesn't matter 'how long' or 'in what way' you use the dark side - your own quote is disproved by not only Luke rejecting the dark side but Vader being redeemed.

Now you raise a valid complaint against the EU, how the vast majority of similar cases seem to be lacking in the dramatic underpinnings of the RotJ duel. The most egregious example is probably Kyp Durron. What do you want me to say? You're fucking right. For the most part, a lot of the EU has its head up its arse with regards to the force and the dark side. That doesn't mean I necessarily agree with you 100% on your assessment of the movies.

Walking into Jabba the Hutt's palace with no weapons,

Bullshit. The Force is a deadly fucking weapon, and a Jedi is never without it.

A Jedi also only uses the Force for defense. Please show me Luke ever taking the initiative and going on the offensive with the Force.

Why? You said he had no weapons, I pointed out the Force can and is used as a deadly weapon. Force choking someone to death, using the force to preempt a blaster shot and redirect it at someone - the point is the Jedi is never 'unarmed'.

no support

What? His whole plan was to send in Lando, Chewie, Leia, the droids (R2 carrying his fucking lightsabre no less) first. His support was already in place.

And yet he walked into Jabba's palace with no support just as I said. All those assets were in place IF the other parts of his plan didn't work.

What the fuck? You're just repeating yourself. You said he had no support, I go 'um, yes he did', you repeat saying he has no support and try to spinball the other characters infiltrating Jabba's palace as some kind of contingency plan? When that was the entire plan all along?

and just a crazy plan is the 'quick and easy path' now?

No shit for brains. Choking two guards because they got in his way is the 'quick and easy path'.

So manipulating their thoughts would have been... what... the harder path? Are you fucking stupid? Why do you automatically equate physical force to EVIL. Hey Obi-Wan lopped of some guys arm when he could have just mind tricked him. HE IS FALLING TO THE DARK SIDE!!!.... You fucking moron.

You're the fucking moron. Obi-wan lopped off some guy's arm... who raised a blaster and fired on him - and before you start any bullshit about 'oh he hadn't fired yet' you can motherfucking clearly hear the sound of a blaster bolt, so cram that up your ass for good measure -, trying to kill him, after Obi-wan tried to placate him and even offered to buy him a drink! And all Obi-wan did was disarm him, literally, rather than kill him. I've never seen a more blatant line of bullshit come from you yet.

As for your other point, I don't automatically equate physical force with evil. Nice try at a strawman though. I'm looking at the specific application of the force of using it to choke someone, and how it's only ever used to harm and kill living organisms. In case you forgot, Yoda described the force as something that 'life creates, helps it flow'. So to use the force solely to inflict pain, or to torment, or to snuff the life out of someone... well, I don't know how you can spin that as anything but dark sided.

And you are acting like he walked into a police station.

No, I'm acting like he walked into where he walked into - a gangster's stronghold. It doesn't matter where he fucking walks into, what matters is what he does and how he does it.

So a Jedi, who at one point were guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy... can't go to a gangsters house to rescue someone that has been kidnapped... because... why? It's not polite? Not proper etiquette?

This point has escaped you. I'm not saying Jabba didn't have it coming. You either don't understand or are completely ignoring my point. What the hell, I'll repeat myself: it doesn't matter where he fucking walks into, what matters is what he does and how he does it.

P.S. he walked in there to try talking to someone.

Yes - he did. Wow, nuance! Just like I've been saying.

No dick head, you were making the point that Luke could have tried talking to someone and he DID NOT.

Yes, in relation to the two guards he fucking choked to get them out of his way. Jesus Christ.

I just pointed out that that is EXACTLY what he was fucking doing and fucking did. Of course, I am not going to even bring up the fact that Luke tried to bargain with Jabba before Leia, IN DISGUISE, even got there... oops. So concede your fucking point. Here, let me remind your dumbass...

Let me remind you, dumbass:

What? Dude, I didn't bring that up as an example of going down the dark path. Luke choked a guy to get him out of his way. A guy that was about to stomp his guts in. I'm not sure what you consider that, but I would call it defense.

I said that he didn't try talking to the two guards at all, he just used the force to choke them. Your bringing up how Luke talked to Jabba's majordomo or tried bargaining with Jabba is a red herring. When I said he could have tried stealth, I meant in relation to sneaking past the guards. Or talking to them.

Hey way to not answer the direct question posed to you.

It was a pretty stupid question. 'What's the difference between A and a, when they're both... um, the same letter?' Your 'direct question' made about as much sense.

The two scenarios aren't equivalent. Obi-wan used a mind trick to get past a squad of stormtroopers rather than resort to violence; Luke, on the other hand, resorts to using violence by force choking the two guards. If you can't understand how the two actions are different, then don't bother replying.

Oh and as for not using stealth... what exactly do you call infiltrating Lando into the guards? Sending Leia in disguised as a bounty hunter? Gee... what a show of brute fucking force. Do you have no comprehension that Luke's presence there was a LAST RESORT?

I didn't get that impression. I thought that plan was pulled off as intended. Considering Luke tells Han as much on the skiff.

And I like how you misunderstand my point yet again - the point isn't that he didn't use stealth at all, it's that he didn't use stealth to sneak past the two guards. He didn't use a mind trick. He didn't ask to see the majordomo. He didn't try to negotiate with the thugs. His actions are very specific, they raised arms against him and he used the force to choke them both. He didn't use the force to knock them on their feet or to disarm them, or to sneak past them, or to mindtrick them - he used the exact same power his own father has used in the last two films to torture and kill people.

Seriously, arguing with you is like arguing with a brick fucking wall. The point is not that those thugs didn't deserve it, or that they're innocent bystanders, or that Jabba is a 'legitimate businessman' and Luke is a gatecrasher who's just assaulted two of his bouncers at the front door - the point is that Luke, when he had a multitude of other options available to him, chose instead to use force choke on the two guards. It is the first fucking thing we see him do in the film. It's the first time we saw him since the end of ESB. And he uses a power only Darth Vader has used up until now.

Good god. Is that sinking in yet?

And the guy in the cantina had only 'raised weapons' at Obi "I use mind tricks" Wan, but at no point did he fire that weapon at him, before HE SLICED HIS FUCKING ARM OFF. Why didn't he just mind trick him? Why didn't he just TK push him? Or use TK to disarm them? I bet he wishes Obi Wan just fucking force choked him.

Fuck off. Dealt with this above, but I'll repeat myself (why not): there is a distinct sound of a blaster bolt being discharged.

Incidentally, two door guards blocking someone's path isn't an act of assault, it's blocking someone's path. Sure they had weapons, but they weren't swinging them at Luke nor did they look like they were making a move to. To use an analogy, this is no different from someone trying to skip a line and walk into a club and the bouncer at the door puts his hand across the door frame to bar the person from entering... and the person responds by punching him in the throat.

And again, for some reason you are equating physical force to EVIL, when clearly it is not an issue for Jedi to go about slicing and dicing in a just cause. I've also completely debunked your point about Luke not using stealth or diplomacy so I'll go ahead and skip responding again to it.

You haven't debunked anything you twit.

I'm going to ask this again... and I want a fucking answer... Why is using the Force to manipulate someones mind to get them to do what you want, against their will, any better than using the Force to constrict someone's airway to get them to do what you want, against their will?

A mind trick as used by Obi-wan? Got them past a troop checkpoint where they were hunting for them specifically, and would have killed them to take back the droids. In that scenario, Obi-wan's mind trick is non-violent means to get past an obstacle where the only other option is to either fast talk (and hope you can get past them that way, although the troop commander immediately asked to see ID) or to bust out the lightsabre and kill them all... thereby alerting pretty much everyone within 10 kilometres that some serious shit is going down (including those dead troop's friends).

Versus walking into someone's stronghold and using the force to hurt two living creatures and inflicting pain and anguish upon them. My theory on how force choke relates to the dark side refers to Yoda's description of how the force works in ESB. If life creates it and helps it flow, as per Yoda's own description of it, then using the force to snuff out life or constricting it's flow or what-have-you is dark side in my book, where using TK to say knock them off their feet or to hold them in place or to disarm them wouldn't be.

OH and P.S. to Obi-Wan using mind tricks on the Death Star... having sliced up Stormtroopers laying around would have sort of gave away that they were even on the DS.

Actually, the only other time we see him use a mind trick was against two stormtroopers, either one of which could have been killed and their bodies thrown down the Bottomless Pit they were standing next to. By the time anyone missed them, they would have been well on their way to escaping (had things gone according to plan). Every other time he used the force to hide his presence. Although, Obi-wan did have his lightsabre out at one point, so he would have used it to be sure - if the situation called for it. The thing is, he used stealth and trickery to get past situations that would have called for violence otherwise.

[Darth Yan]

Hav I have to call bullshit.

No numbnuts. I get what you are trying to say. I'm saying you are wrong. Yoda has been a Jedi for almost 900 years and has been training them for 800. He KNOWS what happens when you start down the dark path. He isn't guessing. He isn't taking a stab in the dark. Luke's 'defiance' of this fact doesn't mean Yoda's lesson is a fucking 'metaphor' (metaphor for what exactly?), it just shows how exceptional Luke actually is. He is the sole person that can defy what Yoda says. The exception that proves the rule, if you will. So then, when every other Jedi and his fucking mom does the exact same thing in the EU, it not only cheapens the movies themselves, but it completely diminishes Luke's accomplishments and makes them mundane and par for the course.

Yoda also followed teachings that were not fully accurate. I suspect that many of the people Yoda saw fall to the dark side could have been pulled out early if they had been given proper help. Look at what happens when Yoda gives Anakin shitty adivce for dealing with Padme's death. That certainly helped cause his fall. And even when Anakin had been using it for a while there were plenty of points when it could have been stopped. It's not meant to be literal