Are "The Clone Wars" and "The Force Unleashed" Canon?

[Connor MacLeod]

I'd still say there are some around who could be called "warsie fuckwits", but they are at most a minority. I mean if you look at the actual board, despite being called SDN and such, there is actually very little interest or activity in STar Wars, Star Trek, or SwvsST anymore - which is why those are now subforums. General sci fi tends to be more prolific (where more topics encompass other universes like Stargate, Dr Who, and 40K) and even that is eclipsed by the artistic/literary and nonscifi parts of the board (even Testing is more active)

Hell you're quite prone to find people who are apt to question the "Warsie ideology" more often here, and not getting supppressed, than not. (Where's D13 when you need him? )

Edit: I'm just about the only one left from the "Good old days" (snicker), and even then I'm less interested in it, and I'm probably abnromal in that regard.

[Simon_Jester]

At this point, the Trek and Wars forums are kept alive largely by people who just can't say no to a rousing argument- not so much out of strong attachment to either series, just because they like to argue.

[Lord Falcon]

Personally, I hated TFU and TCW both with a passion because of the same reason; they freakin' gave Anakin/Vader an APPRENTICE! Still, even The Force Unleashed is not as bad as The Clone Wars, ugh (shudder) because I don't think Anakin having a Padawan makes sense for several reason. 1) This guy was just not MATURE enough to have one (Mace Windu calls it "not stable" in the Ep. III novelization, but he still meant what I am saying). 2) In Ep. IV he told Obi-Wan he left him when he "was but the learner." How can a learner have a learner?! This still implies that he was too young or mature enough to take his own apprentice. And finally 3) Even if he got past all of that, Anakin didn't really believe in the Jedi Code all the way, he had his own views on how to do things, and I don't think he was hypocritical enough to preach to someone about things even he himself doesn't believe in! I hated Vader's apprentice less, but it would have still made more sense if Vader had been training alone under Palpatine until Luke came along. Plus the fact that Vader started training this supposed apprentice only MONTHS after he himself became a Sith! Again, this ties in to what I was saying about preaching something you don't believe. In this case, he's teaching something he doesn't know! Also, I HATED their "attempted" explanation for the beginnings of the Rebellion in that book. Those are my two cents. Sorry if I've offended anyone, this is just my opinion.

[Batman]

1. The Jedi council quite possibly dropped Asoka on him because he wasn't mature enough (remember that he didn't pick her, she was pretty much forced on him), in the hopes that having a younger charge to care for and educate would make him a little more responsible.
Didn't work of course, but the idea isn't all that new.
2. Easily? Just because you know less than others doesn't mean you can't teach others who know even less than you do. Happens all the time in the real world you know.
3. Err-did you actually watch 'The Clone Wars'? He didn't! Half the time it is Asoka who has to remind Anakin that 'this is not the Jedi way'. About the only thing he could be said to have preached to Asoka is 'obey the letter of the rules, then go and twist the spirit into a pretzel and set in on fire while you do things your way, and if that doesn't work, screw the rules and do things your way anyway'.

[Havok]

The part about Vader leaving Obi-Wan when he was just a learner is still technically accurate. He left him and took his trials as a padawan and their further adventures were as equals as Knights.

[Serafina]

The part about Vader leaving Obi-Wan when he was just a learner is still technically accurate. He left him and took his trials as a padawan and their further adventures were as equals as Knights.

Two points:
-Obi-Wan was a full jedi-master, Anakin was not (he was only in the Jedi Council due to Palpatines orders). Therefore, Anakin was clearly inferior in status and still had to learn.
-Obi-Wan bested Anakin in a swordfight. If that's not an indication that Anakin still had a lot to learn, i don't know what is.

Both are very vital points for Anakin. The first was mostly responsible for him becoming Palpatines apprentice - he could not get access to the holocrons he wanted, so he had to get that knowledge somewhere else. The second was a humiliating defeat that essentialy lead to him being on life-support for the rest of his life and loosing a lot of his potential power.
Both facts had changed in Anakins eyes when he dueled with Obi-Wan in ANH. He most likely was a better fighter, and his knowledge of the force had expaned as well. Last time he was inferior, now he was superior. His statement makes perfect sense in that context.

[DudeGuyMan]

Just to chip in, I'll consider Force Unleashed canon when Hell freezes over. I'd rather live in a world where Star Trek beats up Star Wars with invincible Death Star proof navigational shields than a world where "And then Darth Bizkit tapped into the Hardcore side of the Force and pwned Vader and Palpatine LOLOLOL!" is canon.

[Simon_Jester]

Like a lot of the video games, if they ever make The Force Unleashed canon, they'd pick an ending that doesn't conflict with the movies- i.e. Vader and Palpatine don't get their asses kicked in a fight.

[RogueIce]

When TFU retconned the origin of the Rebel symbol, it died to me.

Before, it was the "Alliance Firebird" which would be a phoenix. Which symbolizes the 'Republic rising from the ashes' and so forth.

But no, TFU went and made it into Darth Gary Stu's family crest and they adopted it to honor him. And it survived as the freaking symbol of the New Republic and so on. Those fuckers.

That, alone, is what made me want to declare every single thing about The Force Unleashed noncanon. The rest is just insult to injury.

And for the record according to me: Shaak Ti died in a deleted scene from RotS, not in this game.

[Darksider]

The starbird saw a number of uses throughout galactic history. It was used as the republic insignia during the Great Galactic war, and according to TCW animated series, the Jedi order used it during the Clone Wars as well. It seems as if the Starbird/Phoenix, is a common symbol throughout the galaxy, which probably made it easier for the alliance to adopt a variant of it as their emblem.

[Simon_Jester]

When TFU retconned the origin of the Rebel symbol, it died to me.

Before, it was the "Alliance Firebird" which would be a phoenix. Which symbolizes the 'Republic rising from the ashes' and so forth.

But no, TFU went and made it into Darth Gary Stu's family crest and they adopted it to honor him. And it survived as the freaking symbol of the New Republic and so on. Those fuckers. That, alone, is what made me want to declare every single thing about The Force Unleashed noncanon. The rest is just insult to injury.

My own private canon philosophy is to regard works of fiction as "true" in rough proportion to how amusing I find it to consider them "true," so I'm inclined to agree.

[Serafina]

The starbird saw a number of uses throughout galactic history. It was used as the republic insignia during the Great Galactic war, and according to TCW animated series, the Jedi order used it during the Clone Wars as well. It seems as if the Starbird/Phoenix, is a common symbol throughout the galaxy, which probably made it easier for the alliance to adopt a variant of it as their emblem.

Quite. It's like "hey, let's honor this guy by making this cool-looking eagle-symbol (or other cultural symbol) our official symbol".

To me, they pretty much only got the idea for the symbol from Starkiller. If it had been a bad symbol, they would not have used it, and the New Republic probably kept it without anyone really remembering why the Rebel Alliance had adopted it in the first place.

[RogueIce]

The starbird saw a number of uses throughout galactic history. It was used as the republic insignia during the Great Galactic war, and according to TCW animated series, the Jedi order used it during the Clone Wars as well. It seems as if the Starbird/Phoenix, is a common symbol throughout the galaxy, which probably made it easier for the alliance to adopt a variant of it as their emblem.

Quite. It's like "hey, let's honor this guy by making this cool-looking eagle-symbol (or other cultural symbol) our official symbol".

While I'm glad other elements of the EU and TV show can mitigate the damage somewhat, the way TFU presented it was as solely to honor the guy because of how he helped found the Alliance (another element of the story I despise with a passion). That's what irks me, no matter how much it gets "fixed" elsewhere, I still hate the story for doing that in the first place.

To me, they pretty much only got the idea for the symbol from Starkiller. If it had been a bad symbol, they would not have used it, and the New Republic probably kept it without anyone really remembering why the Rebel Alliance had adopted it in the first place.

Well, Mon Mothma and Leia were there, at least (Bail Organa as well, though he's dead by the time of the NR; Bel Iblis might have been present as well, don't remember). And it was Leia's idea in the first place. Which is more ugh for me.

Now, granted, the NR government as a whole probably wouldn't know, granted. But it was still a dumb retcon that didn't need to be made just to make Starkiller even more "OMG IMPORTANT" than he already was by that point.

Seriously, there is very little of the EU I actively despise. Order 66 and The Force Unleashed just managed to push things way too damn far, though.

And yes, I know, I just put TFU on the same level of fail as Karen Traviss. I make no apologies for doing so.

[Serafina]

While I'm glad other elements of the EU and TV show can mitigate the damage somewhat, the way TFU presented it was as solely to honor the guy because of how he helped found the Alliance (another element of the story I despise with a passion). That's what irks me, no matter how much it gets "fixed" elsewhere, I still hate the story for doing that in the first place.

Unreliable Narrator. Starkiller would not have known that much about the political workings of the Rebel Alliance before his intervention, and likely never got a completel overview over it. After all, he was being deliberately misdirected by Darth Vader - and i think that it is not implausible that the Rebel Leaders didn't trust him completely either.

As you might notice, i am not taking TFU at face-value either. It's canon, but that doesn't mean that it's 100% accurate.
To me, it's how one sheltered guy who got brainwashed for most of his life and manipulated by a Sith Lord tells the tale of his life. He likely ommits a lot of things and doesn't know about others, and really - who here doesn't believe that Starkiller has an overblown ego?

At least i can reconcile (everthing i know about) it like that. Unlike Travis crap - i can not reconcile clone-trooper numbers without ignoring them, i can reconcile Starkillers tale by him being an arrogant, ignorant jerk. I rather prefer the latter.

[Darksider]

TFU is great game play wise. It's fun to play around with the ZOMG AWESOME force powers and smash stormtroopers into walls and crush AT-ST's and shit.

The problem comes when they try to fit the whole thing into the greater SW timeline which is IMHO already a bit too bloated. If LFL were to declare TFU non-canon or an AU, I wouldn't have any problem with it whatsoever. But they'll never do that.

[Connor MacLeod]

"Canon" only becomes a problem if a person tries to obsesssively cram in every single little shred of data into the universe in the most literal fashion possible, even the self-contradicting bits. I know that SW tends to be ridiculously all inclusive in many respects, and people find it difficult to grasp the idea that you actually can disregard literal interpretations without breaking SoD, but.. it can be done. Trying to incorporate all the crazy shit like game mechanics, every little ISD model that has the slightest bit of variation, etc. is just asking for trouble (and I know this from personal experience, as I WAS that obsessively fixated on including everything. I even treated the ISD models from the TIE fighter games as a completely separate shipclass. silly me.)

[Darth Tedious]

I was laughing about the same sort of thing last night, while playing Battlefront II. Apparently, at one point, Stormtroopers had flexible, elastic ab plates (being involved with the 501st Legion, there is a lot of obsession over the canonicity of costume/armour variations).

[Ritterin Sophia]

aunt jemima
not bothering to come up with his own ban-worthy shit yet still hoping to at least moderately annoy
signing off

Are you for fucking real?

[Vympel]

Banned with extreme prejudice.

[Havok]

Awww c'mon Vymp... leave something open so we can respond! I, as I'm sure you know, take great offense to being called a "lackey of Wong".

[ronindave]

I've not accepted the Clone Wars as cannon since the clones were first introduced in Episode II. I can't get over how the Jedi let a bunch of clones into the Republic that were produced under HIGHLY suspicious circumstances and cloned from a bounty hunter that they could tie to the assassination attempt on Padme and was later found working for the Separatists. For all they knew, it could have been a Separatist trap.

If I were a Jedi or a Republic official, I wouldn't care what assurances those CGI cloning weirdos gave me that the clones were obedient, I wouldn't trust those clones - and who are those cloning guys anyway that no one has heard of and whose planet was mysteriously erased from the Jedi records? Can you really trust them or their clones?

[Batman]

Let's see-you have a highly trained army that you can put to use right the fuck now that from all you can tell seems to be perfectly loyal-or you can go up against the Separatists, who do have a quite impressive military of their own, with the forces the Republic has at its disposal as of right now, which are-what, exactly?

[ronindave]

Let's see-you have a highly trained army that you can put to use right the fuck now that from all you can tell seems to be perfectly loyal-or you can go up against the Separatists, who do have a quite impressive military of their own, with the forces the Republic has at its disposal as of right now, which are-what, exactly?

The Republic is a huge government composed of numerous planets. Surely an armed force could be called up if the Republic was in danger - like maybe all those wookies we saw in Episode III? or here's a thought - make war droids of your own! Most of them were those wimpy robots anyway. A couple hundred R2 units with big fans could knock them all down.

And how can you tell the clones seem perfectly loyal? Here are the facts as the Jedi knew them in AOTC:

1) They were cloned in secret

2) They were cloned from a mercenary who was tied to the assassination attempt on Amidala and was found working for the Separatists

3) the planet of cloners was suspiciously removed from the Jedi records which only a Jedi could do supposedly

4) they were cloned on the orders of the Council but the Council never made such an order - that should have been a big tip off.

You don't have to as wise as Yoda to figure something is seriously wrong here or be an Ackbar to know "It's a trap!" And as it turns out - yep surprise! surprise! the clones turn out to be evil! Who'd a-thunk it!

Come to think of it, Palpatine could have done Order 66 right there on Genosis and wiped out all the Jedi and blamed it on the Separatists and no one would have been the wiser!

[Ritterin Sophia]

The Republic is a huge government composed of numerous planets. Surely an armed force could be called up if the Republic was in danger - like maybe all those wookies we saw in Episode III?

Those Wookiees were an unorganized militia who had no mechanized support or organic fire support of any type, the heaviest vehicles they had were speedboats and the equivalent of a civilian utility helicopter with a gun strapped on. It would take months to organize, supply, and train the average planetary militia up into part of a Galactic military.

or here's a thought - make war droids of your own! Most of them were those wimpy robots anyway. A couple hundred R2 units with big fans could knock them all down.

GTFO. That's ridiculous.

And how can you tell the clones seem perfectly loyal? Here are the facts as the Jedi knew them in AOTC:

1) They were cloned in secret

2) They were cloned from a mercenary who was tied to the assassination attempt on Amidala and was found working for the Separatists

3) the planet of cloners was suspiciously removed from the Jedi records which only a Jedi could do supposedly

4) they were cloned on the orders of the Council but the Council never made such an order - that should have been a big tip off.

That only tells us someone wanted a Clone army, not who and we need that Army now.

You don't have to as wise as Yoda to figure something is seriously wrong here or be an Ackbar to know "It's a trap!" And as it turns out - yep surprise! surprise! the clones turn out to be evil! Who'd a-thunk it!

Except they weren't evil. They're subliminally programmed.

Come to think of it, Palpatine could have done Order 66 right there on Genosis and wiped out all the Jedi and blamed it on the Separatists and no one would have been the wiser!

Good job. He doesn't get his emergency powers, just the normal Chancellor powers and the Jedi who aren't on Geonosis find out about the plan long before Palpatine has had time to get agents right behind each and every one of their backs.

[Simon_Jester]

While the Jedi might very well decide to use the clone army as long as they're available, it's hard to understand why they wouldn't investigate the clones in detail. For example, they have been combat-conditioned: by who, and for what purpose? Did the Kaminoans write in any special orders we need to know about?

These are things the Jedi would legitimately want to know. And while the Clone Wars were a desperate and messy conflict, they weren't so desperate that the Jedi would simply not ask any questions about the clones. Without more answers to questions like that, it doesn't make sense for the Jedi to trust the clones so implicitly.