Why would not training Anakin prevent his fall to dark side?

[Spiderman Fanboy]

In case you haven't noticed by now, thread topics tend to wander around here. This thread's topic seems to have wandered from the original 'Why would no training prevent Anakin to fall to the Dark Side' through 'who cares as long as he's not trained and thus mostly harmless' through 'are there actually Dark/Light Side powers as opposed to how and why you use the Force.'

Anyways, and this is just a quick question, how many Jedi were alive when Sidious had ordered Order 66?

And, also, how many Order 66 survivors were there?

I'm just bringing this up because this was mentioned before earlier in this thread.

[Dominarch's Hope]

Several Thousand.

Which became a hundred or so survivors, the ranks of whihc have been steadingly increasing for 30 years.

[Arawn Fenn]

Unless I saw a different OT than Eternal_Freedom, it didn't have Light/Dark Side powers, it just had Force powers period.

Then you saw a different OT. Sith lightning is a dark side power; the Jedi don't use it, good intentions be damned. Force ghosting is a light side thing; the Sith don't achieve it ( while Vader seems baffled by it ).

Whereas the OT implies that you use Dark Side powers it's "bye-bye, you're evil now."

I think the films take precedence over EU.

small problem-a)not evident in the movies

What's not evident in the movies - the idea that the Force has two sides? This is expressed outright in TESB and at least implied by the introduction of the nomenclature in ANH.

[Batman]

Unless I saw a different OT than Eternal_Freedom, it didn't have Light/Dark Side powers, it just had Force powers period.

Then you saw a different OT. Sith lightning is a dark side power; the Jedi don't use it, good intentions be damned. Force ghosting is a light side thing; the Sith don't achieve it ( while Vader seems baffled by it ).

You know doubt have the quotes handy to support this. Because the movies I saw merely have no Jedi using Force Lightning, nothing more. No mention of it being a Dark Side power.

small problem-a)not evident in the movies

What's not evident in the movies - the idea that the Force has two sides? This is expressed outright in TESB and at least implied by the introduction of the nomenclature in ANH.

No, you blithering idiot. That there's Force powers directly tied to either side. Jedi use the Force to maim, kill and mind-control people in the OT already so I think we can safely assume the Light Side is not limited to Teletubby 'Let's be nice to everybody' applications.

[Arawn Fenn]

You know doubt have the quotes handy to support this.

DVD commentary. ( Don't tell me - Lucas "changed his mind". )

Because the movies I saw merely have no Jedi using Force Lightning

Why not, if it's all about good intent? Aren't their intentions good? Isn't it strange that they conspicuously fail to use something that is allegedly available to them and no problem for them to use?

No, you blithering idiot. That there's Force powers directly tied to either side.

Except the quote you referenced with "not evident in the movies" said nothing about powers directly tied to either side, "know doubt".

[Batman]

You know doubt have the quotes handy to support this.

DVD commentary. ( Don't tell me - Lucas "changed his mind". )

Does the phrase 'out of universe' mean anything to you?

Because the movies I saw merely have no Jedi using Force Lightning

Why not, if it's all about good intent? Aren't their intentions good? Isn't it strange that they conspicuously fail to use something that is allegedly available to them and no problem for them to use?

That's something that happens all the time in the real world genius. It's called 'being the good guys'. Not that I see where Force Lightning is all that awesome. Ben managed to block it by merely putting his lightsabre in the way in AOTC.

No, you blithering idiot. That there's Force powers directly tied to either side.

Except the quote you referenced with "not evident in the movies" said nothing about powers directly tied to either side, "know doubt".

Honeybun if you're willing to admit there are no Dark/Light side powers as such, all you have to do is say so.

[Arawn Fenn]

Does the phrase 'out of universe' mean anything to you?

Yeah - it usually means "this is the position of the author", in this case the creator of the franchise.

But oh, whatever am I to do about this imaginary rule you've invented that says you can ignore out-of-universe sources? I guess I'll just mention the ROTJ novel which is in-universe. The ROTS novel makes the same point about ghosting but I suppose there's a rule to exclude that one too. If what you're really looking for is a quote from the films, I should point out that there is no quote in the films which confirms your belief in the nonexistence of exclusive light/dark powers either.

That's something that happens all the time in the real world genius. It's called 'being the good guys'.

You're contradicting yourself, genius. I thought it was all about good intent. Thus, if they were using it with good intent, for a purpose deemed to be good, they'd still be the good guys, right? Except all of a sudden you're acting like they don't use it because just using it at all would mean they weren't 'being the good guys'. It's as if you don't even really believe the position you're selling.

if you're willing to admit there are no Dark/Light side powers as such, all you have to do is say so.

Sorry, but according to Lucas dark side powers exist, and in fact the mere appearance of lightning identifies its user as a darksider - which it would not be able to do if in fact lightsiders could use the power.

[Havok]

Oh fucking please. You think a Jedi couldn't use Force Lightning? Why?

The reason they don't use it is because it is foremost an attacking power and a torture device, it goes against their philosophy. There is not some physical limitation that blocks their usage of it. I mean, if Yoda needed to start his snow speeder and his battery was dead, I'm sure he could conjure a fucking jolt. Don't be daft.

[Batman]

Does the phrase 'out of universe' mean anything to you?

Yeah - it usually means "this is the position of the author", in this case the creator of the franchise.
But oh, whatever am I to do about this imaginary rule you've invented that says you can ignore out-of-universe sources?

That'd be the part where this is an in-universe discussion (or so I gathered anyway).

I guess I'll just mention the ROTJ novel which is in-universe. The ROTS novel makes the same point about ghosting but I suppose there's a rule to exclude that one too.

Feel free to provide the quote.

If what you're really looking for is a quote from the films, I should point out that there is no quote in the films which confirms your belief in the nonexistence of exclusive light/dark powers either.

There's also no quote that confirms that lightsabres are not made of licorice, hyperdrive doesn't run on prune juice, and a main ingredient of starship armour isn't gingerbread. You're asking me to prove a negative.
The only (marginally) canon evidence I know for the Light/Dark/Neutral power split comes from game mechanics.

That's something that happens all the time in the real world genius. It's called 'being the good guys'.

You're contradicting yourself, genius. I thought it was all about good intent. Thus, if they were using it with good intent, for a purpose deemed to be good, they'd still be the good guys, right? Except all of a sudden you're acting like they don't use it because just using it at all would mean they weren't 'being the good guys'

Yeah, I DO think using some powers stops you being the good guy. Like intentionally causing pain for the express purpose of doing so, killing people for no good reason, those kinds of things. I don't care what your intent is-you torture someone, you stop being the Good Guy, or at least slide a good bit towards neutral/evil, and the Jedi had a pretty damned black and white worldview by and large.
If there are Dark Side powers, how come TK, which is routinely used by Jedi and Dark Jedi/Sith alike, works for all of them? Blaster bolt blocking? Mind control?

if you're willing to admit there are no Dark/Light side powers as such, all you have to do is say so.

Sorry, but according to Lucas dark side powers exist, and in fact the mere appearance of lightning identifies its user as a darksider - which it would not be able to do if in fact lightsiders could use the power.

So basically, since good guys don't randomly gun down people in the street...that means they are incapable of it? I'm reasonably certain that's not how it works.

[Arawn Fenn]

You think a Jedi couldn't use Force Lightning? Why?

1. Because Plagueis says so.
2. Because of the reason I already said. It requires deliberate use of the dark side to conjure it in the first place. The kind of use of the dark side which is incrementally corruptive by nature. Part of what it means to be a Jedi is to abhor such usage of the Force. If a so-called Jedi feels free to use the dark side whenever they want, they're not really a Jedi anymore. We call such characters "dark Jedi".

The reason they don't use it is because it is foremost an attacking power and a torture device, it goes against their philosophy.

We've seen Jedi use the Force to attack opponents. They don't use lightning because they're not darksiders, and it's only used by darksiders.

If there are Dark Side powers, how come TK, which is routinely used by Jedi and Dark Jedi/Sith alike, works for all of them?

Uh... because the existence of dark side powers does not mean every power must be exclusive to a specific side?

The only (marginally) canon evidence I know for the Light/Dark/Neutral power split comes from game mechanics.

Are you talking about the game mechanics that classify Force powers into categories of light side power, dark side power, and universal power? Those game mechanics?

Yeah, I DO think using some powers stops you being the good guy.

So if a Jedi blasts an attacking Sith with Force lightning, that means the Jedi isn't the "good guy" anymore? And what about the all-important example of Yoda starting a speeder? Bad Yoda, bad!

There's also no quote that confirms that lightsabres are not made of licorice, hyperdrive doesn't run on prune juice, and a main ingredient of starship armour isn't gingerbread.

So by your logic, all of those things must be true! Good luck with that.

[Batman]

You think a Jedi couldn't use Force Lightning? Why?

1. Because Plagueis says so.
2. Because of the reason I already said. It requires deliberate use of the dark side to conjure it in the first place. The kind of use of the dark side which is incrementally corruptive by nature. Part of what it means to be a Jedi is to abhor such usage of the Force. If a so-called Jedi feels free to use the dark side whenever they want, they're not really a Jedi anymore. We call such characters "dark Jedi".

That's exactly his point you blithering idiot? The Jedi don't use Force Lightning because they can't. They refuse to do it.

The reason they don't use it is because it is foremost an attacking power and a torture device, it goes against their philosophy.

We've seen Jedi use the Force to attack opponents. They don't use lightning because they're not darksiders, and it's only used by darksiders.

Jedi don't use Force Lightning because it goes against their philosophy and because it seriously stinks as an offensive weapon. Even if we assume Palpy was toying with Luke in RotJ, all it took to block Dooku's attack in Clones was...Ben getting his lightsabre in the way.

If there are Dark Side powers, how come TK, which is routinely used by Jedi and Dark Jedi/Sith alike, works for all of them?

Uh... because the existence of dark side powers does not mean every power must be exclusive to a specific side?

Why must any power be?

The only (marginally) canon evidence I know for the Light/Dark/Neutral power split comes from game mechanics.

Are you talking about the game mechanics that classify Force powers into categories of light side power, dark side power, and universal power? Those game mechanics?

Yup. Which is totally unsupported by the movies, the Clone Wars cartoon, and what I can currently remember of the EU novels.

Yeah, I DO think using some powers stops you being the good guy.

So if a Jedi blasts an attacking Sith with Force lightning, that means the Jedi isn't the "good guy" anymore?

Not in the eyes of the Jedi, no. Especially as the OR they tend to be pretty anal about that.

And what about the all-important example of Yoda starting a speeder? Bad Yoda, bad!

While I can think of a goodly number of scenarios where that speeder would turn out to be an attacking Sith, I DO think it is somewhat besides the point. The speeder is (usually) not a sentient being that can feel pain.

There's also no quote that confirms that lightsabres are not made of licorice, hyperdrive doesn't run on prune juice, and a main ingredient of starship armour isn't gingerbread.

So by your logic, all of those things must be true! Good luck with that.

No, ignoramus. By my logic, I'd have to show proof for those outrageous claims because that's how the game works. I don't have to disprove there's gingerbread in Wars armour until you've given us reason to believe there is. By that same token, nobody in the movies saying there aren't Dark/Light Side powers doesn't mean there are.

[Arawn Fenn]

That's exactly his point you blithering idiot?

Sorry, blithering tard, but I quote: "attacking power and a torture device". That is most certainly not my point. The power is not defined as a dark side power due to its outcome or implementation. It is a dark side power because you have to use the dark side to create it, regardless of outcome.

The Jedi don't use Force Lightning because they can't.

They can't create it without using the dark side. They refuse the dark side. I never said they were prevented from using it in any other way than that: they can't use it with impunity and still be true Jedi. A Jedi can always fall to the dark side.

it seriously stinks as an offensive weapon.

Not all fights are 1-on-1.

Why must any power be?

Because Lucas says so?

Which is totally unsupported by the movies, the Clone Wars cartoon, and what I can currently remember of the EU novels.

"Unsupported" meaning "unproven to your satisfaction". But the films and cartoon are entirely consistent with it. Jedi in the cartoon never use lightning, for some reason, just like in the films. It's obvious what you think the reason is, but that is no more "supported" than the alternative. As for the question of what you can currently remember of the EU, I already cited one example. There are arguably others, such as Rule of Two, but the EU is not monolithic. There is likely difference of opinion, with Troy Denning on the other side of the issue, as opposed to a stance which is consistent over all EU.

Not in the eyes of the Jedi, no. Especially as the OR they tend to be pretty anal about that.

In the eyes of the Jedi, trying to destroy a Sith means you're not the good guy anymore? I think some remedial viewing is in order...

The speeder is (usually) not a sentient being that can feel pain.

So why is using Force lightning on it bad?

No, ignoramus. By my logic, I'd have to show proof for those outrageous claims because that's how the game works.

It's important for you to explain the rules of this game, because you're making them up as you go along. Which of these positions is the "outrageous" one, Socrates? That there are side-exclusive powers, or that there aren't? Which one gets stuck with the burden of proof while the other one conveniently gets a pass?

By that same token, nobody in the movies saying there aren't Dark/Light Side powers doesn't mean there are.

By the same token, nobody in the movies saying there are dark/light side powers doesn't mean there aren't.

[Havok]

OOOOOOOHHHH I see, you think there is LITERALLY a dark side of the energy field that is the Force. You literally think the Force creates, like dark energy and light energy. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

[Arawn Fenn]

Get your ass back to Goblin Town!