No Anakin Skywalker=No Galactic Empire?

[Spiderman Fanboy]

Hey, you don't have to tell ME that Star Wars fans can't parse an interesting drama and need cardboard cutouts sliding around a diorama like in the school play.

But a man can dream about ROTS not sucking.

Once again, you're not arguing/discussing/answering my questions from before! Just read Sam's very long reply to Havok!

[Stark]

Oh sorry I thought you claimed I said something I obviously didn't and then failed to prove it. My mistake!

And Have I demand you draw Mace defeating Anakin in a room full of lightsabred babies.

Needs the look of dawning horror in his eyes so we know he will kill himself.

Also, call me DOG.

[Havok]

So, without Anakin, we would've had a Count Dooku or Darth Maul in ANH, hunting down the death star plans? Interesting.

It is a hypothetical.

Mace Windu still had plans of arresting Palpatine even before Anakin told him he was a Sith Lord. So, without Anakin there, Mace Windu would have killed him. If Anakin hadn't blocked Mace Windu's lightsaber, Palpatine would've been decapitated right there. Now, if you want to argue that palpatine had the time to zap mace windu with the force lightning without Anakin saving him a few seconds of time to regain his strength, then go ahead and do that for me, please.

I have always been in the camp that maintains that Mace could have defeated Palpatine. However in being in that camp I also accept that Palpatine knew it too and provided for that. He would not have let his entire plan, that had been devised, enacted and carried out literally for decades, hinge on the whims of Anakin coming to save him. Based on that I have to accept that he either was feigning his defeat to Mace or that he had a insurance not based on Anakin. I chose the latter.

And, no, Anakin/Vader didn't just kill the younglings. He also killed Cin Drallig and his 2 padawans, and a few other temple Jeid during operation knightfall that the EU mentions, including a Zabrak Jedi and Serra Keto.

Which is EXACTLY why I said

give or take a few here and there and Mace.

you dishonest little fuck. If you would learn how to quote and respond properly, maybe you wouldn't cherry pick so damned hard and misrepresent what people say quite so blatantly. However I doubt it.

I don't believe in predestination. The Empire was not predestined to form. That's like saying that Nazi Germany was predestined, and there was no way to either stop Hitler from coming to power or removing him very early/much earlier in his rule.

You are a fucking idiot. When in ANY of my posts did I say anything about "predestination". I spoke of planning and plotting. Palpatine out maneuvered people that didn't know they were even being challenged by him. Stop confusing what you as an audience member know and what the characters in universe know.

Anakin may have affected the timing of Order 66, too, which worked in Palpatine's favor.

There was no "timing" to Order 66 you blithering idiot. Again, if you could read at beyond a fourth grade level you would realize that was my point. Order 66 was to be enacted whenever the time was right, not on a specific schedule.

And, without Anakin being there, an Order 66 survivor could have killed Palpatine. Mace Windu definitley could've done that job! And, also, I suggest that you check out this Jedi Council Forums thread, "who could have defeated/overthrown Palpatine".

No, they couldn't have. In one on one combat, only Mace could defeat Palpatine, OR as George Lucas has stated in clarifying the Chosen One, Anakin. Even Yoda, as we saw on screen could not match his power.

[Havok]

Narratively, Mace saying 'fuck you, I knew you were trouble' would have detracted from Anakins tiff with Obi Wan... But it probably would have been more interesting, especially as Mace would totally b out to kill him as fast as possible rather than fuck around with wooden dialog.

:
ROFL ROFL ROFL HELICOPTER
AND YOUR MOM

What are you laughing about here numbnuts? You didn't prove your point, you just showed that Stark, unlike you, knows the difference of dialog vs acting and you don't.
I don't think anyone is surprised that meanings of words confuse you.

[Havok]

You know dialog is a part of the script, right? When I say the dialog would be better, that's not because Jackson is a better actor than Christiansen (certainly not in ROTS where he appears to be stoned), but rather that everything Obi Wan and Anakin say on Mustafar is lame eye rolling crap and I'd rather watch Mace Windu cry 'fuck you Skywalker you are going DOWN' and hack his arm off.

You can apologize now.

The force is strong with this Muthafucka!!!!

Respond to my previous post.

He did idiot. "You know dialog is a part of the script, right?" In other words, it has nothing to do with the quality of the actor, which your little undeveloped brain automatically assumed he said.

How old are you?

[Stark]

You're a genius. The scene should have been Mace defeating Anakin the same way Anakin defeated Dooku - because his rage was stronger. It could have shown that rage and anger is bad, even when it's to avenge horrible atrocities, and have Palps phone him up at the end and say GOOD WORK MACE NOW KILL ANAKIN AND TAKE HIS PLACE and have Mace commit suicide in horror, showing the difference between heroes who make mistakes and psychos.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

You know dialog is a part of the script, right? When I say the dialog would be better, that's not because Jackson is a better actor than Christiansen (certainly not in ROTS where he appears to be stoned), but rather that everything Obi Wan and Anakin say on Mustafar is lame eye rolling crap and I'd rather watch Mace Windu cry 'fuck you Skywalker you are going DOWN' and hack his arm off.

You can apologize now.

The force is strong with this Muthafucka!!!!

Respond to my previous post.

He did idiot. "You know dialog is a part of the script, right?" In other words, it has nothing to do with the quality of the actor, which your little undeveloped brain automatically assumed he said.

How old are you?

I'm 15.5 years old.

Hayden Christensen is an awesome actor, both vocally and emotionally and HANDSOME!!!

[Havok]

15... wow completely not surprised. And that is great idiot, you think Hayden is awesome.

Please try to understand this... try really hard... ready? No one said he was or wasn't.

Now, go look up subjective and objective and come back when you understand the difference.

[Stark]

Windu's last line should be some variant on 'you deserve this' as he prepares to deliver the final blow to Anakin who is stunned by the power of his fury. Then Palps phones him up and gives him the recruitment pitch, revealing its all part of his plan, so Windu gets to know that he's not a hero saving the world - he's part of the machine that destroyed it. The irony is that he's the one who deserves it, so rather than turn to the dark side in typical SW fashion he leaps to his death or cuts himself in half or something.

Man, being Better Than George Lucas is piss easy. Hav did it BY FUCKING ACCIDENT.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

So, without Anakin, we would've had a Count Dooku or Darth Maul in ANH, hunting down the death star plans? Interesting.

It is a hypothetical.

Mace Windu still had plans of arresting Palpatine even before Anakin told him he was a Sith Lord. So, without Anakin there, Mace Windu would have killed him. If Anakin hadn't blocked Mace Windu's lightsaber, Palpatine would've been decapitated right there. Now, if you want to argue that palpatine had the time to zap mace windu with the force lightning without Anakin saving him a few seconds of time to regain his strength, then go ahead and do that for me, please.

I have always been in the camp that maintains that Mace could have defeated Palpatine. However in being in that camp I also accept that Palpatine knew it too and provided for that. He would not have let his entire plan, that had been devised, enacted and carried out literally for decades, hinge on the whims of Anakin coming to save him. Based on that I have to accept that he either was feigning his defeat to Mace or that he had a insurance not based on Anakin. I chose the latter.

And, no, Anakin/Vader didn't just kill the younglings. He also killed Cin Drallig and his 2 padawans, and a few other temple Jeid during operation knightfall that the EU mentions, including a Zabrak Jedi and Serra Keto.

Which is EXACTLY why I said

give or take a few here and there and Mace.

you dishonest little fuck. If you would learn how to quote and respond properly, maybe you wouldn't cherry pick so damned hard and misrepresent what people say quite so blatantly. However I doubt it.

I don't believe in predestination. The Empire was not predestined to form. That's like saying that Nazi Germany was predestined, and there was no way to either stop Hitler from coming to power or removing him very early/much earlier in his rule.

You are a fucking idiot. When in ANY of my posts did I say anything about "predestination". I spoke of planning and plotting. Palpatine out maneuvered people that didn't know they were even being challenged by him. Stop confusing what you as an audience member know and what the characters in universe know.

Anakin may have affected the timing of Order 66, too, which worked in Palpatine's favor.

There was no "timing" to Order 66 you blithering idiot. Again, if you could read at beyond a fourth grade level you would realize that was my point. Order 66 was to be enacted whenever the time was right, not on a specific schedule.

And, without Anakin being there, an Order 66 survivor could have killed Palpatine. Mace Windu definitley could've done that job! And, also, I suggest that you check out this Jedi Council Forums thread, "who could have defeated/overthrown Palpatine".

No, they couldn't have. In one on one combat, only Mace could defeat Palpatine, OR as George Lucas has stated in clarifying the Chosen One, Anakin. Even Yoda, as we saw on screen could not match his power.

Luke Skywalker or Princess Leia could have killed Sidious, end of story.
And so could Mace Windu.
And could Anakin do that in a straight fight? Yes, he could have.

I don't believe that there were any Jedi that couldn't kill Sidious. Do you get my analogy? Without Anakin, some order 66 survivor could've killed Sidious much earlier on, and Alderaan's destruction never would have happened.

Obi wan and yoda could have killed Sidious. It was very unlikely, due to Sidious being much stronger in them, but, in the Inheritance Cycle, it says that intelligence could help you beat a much powerful opponent.

The Order 66 survivors either turned to the darkside or went into hiding. Without Anakin being there, the timing that Palpatine has Order 66 happen, would've been different, and some different, more mentally stable Jedi would've survived (ie, the butterfly/domino effect).

It's almost like a video game level, these sci fi and fantasy movies, it's all about random special visual effects that control how each good guy could kill each bad guy. It's interesting. And I love that.

You are suggesting/implying at least something that's very similar to predestination. You're arguing that no matter what, nobody could stop/kill Palpatine that early on to stop his Empire from being created.

I still don't get what you're arguing. Are my opponents in this debate arguing that Palpatine "could" have formed the Empire without Anakin being there, or are you guys arguing that Palpatine definitley would have formed the Empire without Anakin being there.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/geor ... .50008967/

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/who- ... .50009341/

[Stark]

What a terrifying look inside the mind of a cretin.

BTW Hav this is what most nerds are thinking when they talk about scifi. JUST LIKE A VIDEO GAME WITH LIFEBARS

[Spiderman Fanboy]

What a terrifying look inside the mind of a cretin.

BTW Hav this is what most nerds are thinking when they talk about scifi. JUST LIKE A VIDEO GAME WITH LIFEBARS

Exactly, dude. I mean, really. Star Wars is about defeating an evil dictator leader. But only the "new hopes" can defeat them, ie, people with Force powers. In real life wars, it's about real humans fighting each other. In video games and sci fi, it's about lifebars and level 12 Sith status powers that could save the world. That's how I view Harry Potter to a certain extent, too!!!

[Spiderman Fanboy]

RESPOND TO MY PREVIOUS POSTS ABOUT WHO HAD THE LEVEL 12 SITH STATUS TO DEFEAT PALPATINE, YOU LITTLE NANCY BOY BITCHES!!!!!

[Darth Yan]

Luke at DE and Unifying force power level, Mace Windu, Jacen Solo Unifying force prior to that horseshit heel turn in Legacy of the Bullshit.............

Kid, as someone who was your age when he registered, I do feel some degree of sympathy, since it's easy being a dumbass kid who thinks he knows all. But seriously, clean up your act. don't just randomly call your opponents idiots. Actually consider their arguments, and the possibility that you might be wrong. Listen to their points. Research what a logical fallacy is. Understand them. If you don't, you will be banned before the year is out.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

Luke at DE and Unifying force power level, Mace Windu, Jacen Solo Unifying force prior to that horseshit heel turn in Legacy of the Bullshit.............

Kid, as someone who was your age when he registered, I do feel some degree of sympathy, since it's easy being a dumbass kid who thinks he knows all. But seriously, clean up your act. don't just randomly call your opponents idiots. Actually consider their arguments, and the possibility that you might be wrong. Listen to their points. Research what a logical fallacy is. Understand them. If you don't, you will be banned before the year is out.

Insults are allowed on this forum, bro. That's why I love this forum so much! It's leniency with flaming and arguing for your point!

[Havok]

Luke Skywalker or Princess Leia could have killed Sidious, end of story.
And so could Mace Windu.

No they could not. Even taking your wookiepedia and The Force.net "evidence" into account, again, it comes down to understanding what words mean. "Compete" does not equal "defeat".

And could Anakin do that in a straight fight? Yes, he could have.

This is true.

I don't believe that there were any Jedi that couldn't kill Sidious. Do you get my analogy? Without Anakin, some order 66 survivor could've killed Sidious much earlier on, and Alderaan's destruction never would have happened.

And this is why you are an idiot. There was only one... wait for it... Jedi that could kill Palpatine... still waiting? The Chosen One. Do you see what Lucas did there?

P.S. that is not an "analogy" you fucking idiot. Gawd, go buy a dictionary for fucks sake.

Obi wan and yoda could have killed Sidious. It was very unlikely, due to Sidious being much stronger in them, but, in the Inheritance Cycle, it says that intelligence could help you beat a much powerful opponent.

No, they could not. Yoda flat out says Obi-Wan can't. Yoda then gets shown getting his ass kicked by him. Are you this fucking dense?

The Order 66 survivors either turned to the darkside or went into hiding. Without Anakin being there, the timing that Palpatine has Order 66 happen, would've been different, and some different, more mentally stable Jedi would've survived (ie, the butterfly/domino effect).

This is absolute made up nonsense with no verifiable proof behind it what so ever. You CAN NOT state this as fact.

It's almost like a video game level, these sci fi and fantasy movies, it's all about random special visual effects that control how each good guy could kill each bad guy. It's interesting. And I love that.

No, no it is not.

You are suggesting/implying at least something that's very similar to predestination. You're arguing that no matter what, nobody could stop/kill Palpatine that early on to stop his Empire from being created.

I am doing no such thing. My gawd, I know you think you are smart and clever... You are not.
My point is that there is no single Jedi outside of Mace or Anakin that are powerful enough to defeat him in single combat. That is made clear by the fact that Yoda could not and three other Jedi Council Masters were killed in about 5 seconds by Palpatine before even Mace could respond.
Also saying that someone is executing a plan they have been working on and enacting for decades flawlessly, even taking into account and leaving flexibility for unknown variables, is not the fucking same as saying it is "predestination" you ignorant shitstain.

I still don't get what you're arguing. Are my opponents in this debate arguing that Palpatine "could" have formed the Empire without Anakin being there, or are you guys arguing that Palpatine definitley would have formed the Empire without Anakin being there.

Wow. You really are fucking this stupid.
OK I know reading is not your strong point, but yes, I am flat out telling you that if Anakin Skywalker is never born, the Empire will still come into being.

Palpatine was using the corruption of the Republic Senate, the stagnant nature of the Jedi, the clones, the decaying state of the Republic itself, the secrecy of his dual identities, and the knowledge and powerbase of thousands of years of Sith activities to create an "Empire" he would rule.
Not one of those this is contingent on Anakin being involved, let alone even existing.

[Havok]

Luke at DE and Unifying force power level, Mace Windu, Jacen Solo Unifying force prior to that horseshit heel turn in Legacy of the Bullshit.............

Kid, as someone who was your age when he registered, I do feel some degree of sympathy, since it's easy being a dumbass kid who thinks he knows all. But seriously, clean up your act. don't just randomly call your opponents idiots. Actually consider their arguments, and the possibility that you might be wrong. Listen to their points. Research what a logical fallacy is. Understand them. If you don't, you will be banned before the year is out.

Insults are allowed on this forum, bro. That's why I love this forum so much! It's leniency with flaming and arguing for your point!

When the only thing you get right are the insults (and that is a kindness I am allowing there), you aren't going to be around long.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

Luke at DE and Unifying force power level, Mace Windu, Jacen Solo Unifying force prior to that horseshit heel turn in Legacy of the Bullshit.............

Kid, as someone who was your age when he registered, I do feel some degree of sympathy, since it's easy being a dumbass kid who thinks he knows all. But seriously, clean up your act. don't just randomly call your opponents idiots. Actually consider their arguments, and the possibility that you might be wrong. Listen to their points. Research what a logical fallacy is. Understand them. If you don't, you will be banned before the year is out.

Insults are allowed on this forum, bro. That's why I love this forum so much! It's leniency with flaming and arguing for your point!

When the only thing you get right are the insults (and that is a kindness I am allowing there), you aren't going to be around long.

OK, now let's continue the discussion. Havok, you didn't reply to my earlier post.

[Havok]

What a terrifying look inside the mind of a cretin.

BTW Hav this is what most nerds are thinking when they talk about scifi. JUST LIKE A VIDEO GAME WITH LIFEBARS

I know. I'm not even sure why either of us are bothering with Tubbs 2.0 here.

[Havok]

OK, now let's continue the discussion. Havok, you didn't reply to my earlier post.

What discussion? You are wrong. End of discussion.

You have done ZERO to prove that Anakin is required for the Empire to exist. In one sentence I gave you like 7 reasons why it would exist without him. You have no argument. Given your position was arguable, you certainly don't have the chops to do it kid.

[Batman]

I know. I'm not even sure why either of us are bothering with Tubbs 2.0 here.

Boredom? There's nothing worthwhile on TV? You're feeling masochistic today?

[Havok]

Must be.

[Kreller1]

George Lucas stated that Palpy played up his defeat vs. Mace in order to push Anakin in the direction of recruiting him. ("Oh, I'm so weeeak!") I recall one shot during the fight where Palpy has his saber pointed directly at Mace's chest, with Mace's arms spread out and completely defenseless. Palpy could have waxed him right there but didn't. I think Palpy threw the fight so that he could use that to turn Anakin whom he sensed was hauling butt to the scene. Being the sneaky, cunning little Sith Lord, Palpy had some kind of backup plan in case he was truly losing the fight against Mace. Perhaps he had another light saber hidden in his robes somewhere?

[Havok]

IIRC in the novel he does indeed have two lightsabers in his ofice. I think one was imbedded in a statue.