The Battle Of Hoth The Empire's Most Hollow Victory

[Kuja]

Why didn't the fleet had Inderdictor Cruisers with them to stop the Transports entering hyperspace?

Because Interdictor Cruisers are from the EU, not the canon, and hadn't been invented by WEG at the time of ESB.

That's a crackhead explanation. I have a better one. When the probe found the Hoth base, Vader ordered his flotilla to immediately go there. Since there weren't any ICs with them, there was no time to call them up.

[Akm72]

That's a crackhead explanation. I have a better one. When the probe found the Hoth base, Vader ordered his flotilla to immediately go there. Since there weren't any ICs with them, there was no time to call them up.

No shit. But if ICs are so useful, why didn't Vader have the foresight to add a couple to his all-important Death Sqaudron before they had to rush off to Hoth? They must've been aware of the possibility that they might have to set up a blockade. Also why isn't the 17.5km long Executor fitted with gravity well generators itself? After all the ICs are only 600m long, it should be easy to fit the GW generators to a ship as large as a SSD.

[Kuja]

No shit. But if ICs are so useful, why didn't Vader have the foresight to add a couple to his all-important Death Sqaudron before they had to rush off to Hoth? They must've been aware of the possibility that they might have to set up a blockade.

They didn't anticipate having to deal with Echo Base's theater shield.

Also why isn't the 17.5km long Executor fitted with gravity well generators itself? After all the ICs are only 600m long, it should be easy to fit the GW generators to a ship as large as a SSD.

Apparently, they're a drain on the shields, which is why the Imps have specialty ships in the first place, rather than just mounting one on all ISDs.

[Guest]

so basically what u are saying is that Vader, the supreme commander of Imperial Forces, made a boo boo and forgot to include Inderdiction Cruisers.

and for the record if SW didn't have the IC by then then how come the Rebel fleet didn't hit and hype when they saw they were set up?

[Kuja]

so basically what u are saying is that Vader, the supreme commander of Imperial Forces, made a boo boo and forgot to include Inderdiction Cruisers.

Or he didn't think they would become necessary.

and for the record if SW didn't have the IC by then then how come the Rebel fleet didn't hit and hype when they saw they were set up?

You mean at Endor? First, Lando was right when he said they wouldn't have another shot at it. Once DS2 was finished, the Rebels would have been crushed. A second possible reason is that with the DS on one side, The Imp fleet surrounding them, Endor below, and the sun above, they'd be boxed in by NATURAL gravity wells.

[Isolder74]

so basically what u are saying is that Vader, the supreme commander of Imperial Forces, made a boo boo and forgot to include Inderdiction Cruisers.

Or he didn't think they would become necessary.

and for the record if SW didn't have the IC by then then how come the Rebel fleet didn't hit and hype when they saw they were set up?

You mean at Endor? First, Lando was right when he said they wouldn't have another shot at it. Once DS2 was finished, the Rebels would have been crushed. A second possible reason is that with the DS on one side, The Imp fleet surrounding them, Endor below, and the sun above, they'd be boxed in by NATURAL gravity wells.

i don't understand why do we keep ending up at Endor this is a discussion of The Battle Of Hoth

[Akm72]

so basically what u are saying is that Vader, the supreme commander of Imperial Forces, made a boo boo and forgot to include Inderdiction Cruisers.

Or he didn't think they would become necessary.

My prefered solution is that ICs are simply not as good as indicated by the EU, and have unexplained weaknesses that would've made them a waste of time over Hoth or Endor.
Maybe the area of effect is too small in real-space to be useful during those battles, and they're much better at interdicting ships already in hyperspace? Or the exotic technology they use makes them ludicrously expensive, so the Empire only owns a small number for special operations, and Vader couldn't have them attached permanently to his fleet.

[Kuja]

My prefered solution is that ICs are simply not as good as indicated by the EU, and have unexplained weaknesses that would've made them a waste of time over Hoth or Endor.

Using their gravity wells DOES put a massive strain on the shields, as shown when a single volley of fighter torps can bring the shields down and force the cruiser to drop its wells.

Maybe the area of effect is too small in real-space to be useful during those battles, and they're much better at interdicting ships already in hyperspace? Or the exotic technology they use makes them ludicrously expensive, so the Empire only owns a small number for special operations, and Vader couldn't have them attached permanently to his fleet.

They generate a mass-shadow the same size as an average star's.

I doubt they're ludicrously expensive, or the Empire would've done more to protect them after Ender (ref: Rogue Squadron, where Kirtan Loor doubted that attacking Interdictors would result in drawing out the Imperial fleet)

[Akm72]

My prefered solution is that ICs are simply not as good as indicated by the EU, and have unexplained weaknesses that would've made them a waste of time over Hoth or Endor.

Using their gravity wells DOES put a massive strain on the shields, as shown when a single volley of fighter torps can bring the shields down and force the cruiser to drop its wells.

Maybe the area of effect is too small in real-space to be useful during those battles, and they're much better at interdicting ships already in hyperspace? Or the exotic technology they use makes them ludicrously expensive, so the Empire only owns a small number for special operations, and Vader couldn't have them attached permanently to his fleet.

They generate a mass-shadow the same size as an average star's.

I doubt they're ludicrously expensive, or the Empire would've done more to protect them after Ender (ref: Rogue Squadron, where Kirtan Loor doubted that attacking Interdictors would result in drawing out the Imperial fleet)

Then you must prefer the 'solution' that calls for Vader and the Emperor to be a bit thick, and not attach a few ICs to his Death Squadron 'just in case', or to deploy a few to provide a cordon to stop the rebel fleet from escaping Endor.

[Kuja]

The hell are you talking about? Rebel fleet escaping Endor? Well, DID THEY? No. Both sides knew that this was a battle the Rebs COULD NOT retreat from. Interdictors were unnessecary.

[Akm72]

The hell are you talking about? Rebel fleet escaping Endor? Well, DID THEY? No. Both sides knew that this was a battle the Rebs COULD NOT retreat from. Interdictors were unnessecary.

Then explain why Piett thought his job at Endor was to stop the Rebel fleet escaping? Why wouldn't ICs have helped him perform that role?

Also why do you suppose Darth Vader didn't attach a few of these highly capable yet disposable ICs to his fleet before Hoth? Was he too stupid to see that they'd be able to perform a valuable role in the event of a blockade? If not then why didn't he have some?

[Kuja]

Then explain why Piett thought his job at Endor was to stop the Rebel fleet escaping? Why wouldn't ICs have helped him perform that role?

Obviously, the NATURAL mass-shadows in the system, plus the DS2 and its shield, would cut off any other means of escape, and the fleet would close the chokehold. Besides, if Interdictors were signed off to the fleet, that might've tipped Reb agents to a trap.

Also why do you suppose Darth Vader didn't attach a few of these highly capable yet disposable ICs to his fleet before Hoth? Was he too stupid to see that they'd be able to perform a valuable role in the event of a blockade? If not then why didn't he have some?

Are you NOT paying attention? I've already blasted this argument. He didn't think they'd be NECESSARY! He didn't anticipate Echo Base's theater shield, and because of Ozzel's dumb mistake, he didn't have time to summon any.

[Akm72]

Then explain why Piett thought his job at Endor was to stop the Rebel fleet escaping? Why wouldn't ICs have helped him perform that role?

...if Interdictors were signed off to the fleet, that might've tipped Reb agents to a trap.

Yet they wern't tipped off by an entire Sector Group of ISDs? If ICs are pretty common and disposable as claimed, it would not have been hard for the Empire to deploy a small number at Endor if they'd wanted to. Also if they're capable of affecting a large area as the EU claims, they would've been so useful that it's difficult to see why they didn't want to.

Also why do you suppose Darth Vader didn't attach a few of these highly capable yet disposable ICs to his fleet before Hoth? Was he too stupid to see that they'd be able to perform a valuable role in the event of a blockade? If not then why didn't he have some?

Are you NOT paying attention? I've already blasted this argument. He didn't think they'd be NECESSARY! He didn't anticipate Echo Base's theater shield, and because of Ozzel's dumb mistake, he didn't have time to summon any.

ROFLOL, you call that a blast? More like a brief burst of wind.

As you are well aware Vaders fleet was a roving command, tasked with finding the rebels. Of course he had no idea where the battle might take place, or what equipment the enemy would have. But for precisely that reason, he could be expected to prepare for the most likly scenarios. Establishing a blockade is quite close to the top of the list. There are numerous reasons why he might've needed to implement a blockade given the unpredictable nature of the mission.
What if he'd come across some rebel ships instead of that base? With a few IC's in his Death sqn it would be so much easier to stop them escaping, he'd be mad not to consider them. It doesn't take much imagination to see how useful a few ICs would be to his fleet. You need a better reason than 'He didn't predict the energy shield' to explain their absence.

[Kuja]

Yet they wern't tipped off by an entire Sector Group of ISDs? If ICs are pretty common and disposable as claimed, it would not have been hard for the Empire to deploy a small number at Endor if they'd wanted to. Also if they're capable of affecting a large area as the EU claims, they would've been so useful that it's difficult to see why they didn't want to.

They weren't needed because of the desperation of the Rebels. This was do or die, no going back, and the fleet was there to keep them boxed in and in front of the DS2.

ROFLOL, you call that a blast? More like a brief burst of wind.

As you are well aware Vaders fleet was a roving command, tasked with finding the rebels. Of course he had no idea where the battle might take place, or what equipment the enemy would have. But for precisely that reason, he could be expected to prepare for the most likly scenarios. Establishing a blockade is quite close to the top of the list. There are numerous reasons why he might've needed to implement a blockade given the unpredictable nature of the mission.
What if he'd come across some rebel ships instead of that base? With a few IC's in his Death sqn it would be so much easier to stop them escaping, he'd be mad not to consider them. It doesn't take much imagination to see how useful a few ICs would be to his fleet. You need a better reason than 'He didn't predict the energy shield' to explain their absence.

HE DIDN'T NEED THEM. Remember, the Devastator was able to run down the Tantive-IV over Tatooine, so ISDs aren't exactly helpless at stopping ships from going to hype. Besides, he has an SSD. Would it really be 'mad' to turn down the I-Cs when you have a ship THAT big? The I-Cs might add to the fleet, but ultimately, he might've decided they'd be better used elsewhere.

[Uraniun235]

Hoth was a military failure. The appropriate course of action would have been to set up a constant rain of fire towards the shield generators and then send the AT-AT force on the attack. If the shields are lowered to fire the ion cannon or let transports through, it would be very likely that at least one turbolaser shot makes it through destroying the shield generator and leaving the Rebel base open for bombardment.

At the least, it's better than sitting around waiting for the Rebels to come up.

If Palpy/Vader were really so convinced that Luke was so important to the Rebellion or so powerful as to be a threat, the blanket bombardment + ground assault would have assured annihilation of Rebel forces, including Skywalker.

One could argue that Palpy/Vader saw Luke as more important than annihilating the Rebel force at Hoth, for whatever deluded reasons they might have concocted revolving around the force.

But, militarily, compared to what could have been accomplished, Hoth was a failure.

[Vympel]

If Palpy/Vader were really so convinced that Luke was so important to the Rebellion or so powerful as to be a threat, the blanket bombardment + ground assault would have assured annihilation of Rebel forces, including Skywalker.

One could argue that Palpy/Vader saw Luke as more important than annihilating the Rebel force at Hoth, for whatever deluded reasons they might have concocted revolving around the force..

The field was strong enough to resist any bombardment by an SSD and its five ISD escorts. It wasn't an option.

"Deluded" reasons revolving around the force? Read my "an interpretation of the OT" thread. You are wrong. Luke was of paramount importance. It was the force that allowed the destruction of the original Death Star, and if that's not enough to convince you of his importance, Palpatine identified the threat quite plainly when he said "he could destroy us". Vader had no intention of annihilating his son. The objective was capture- and as such, bombardment wasn't exactly wise, even if it was possible.

[omegaLancer]

The Fact is Luke was important not only to Emperor, but to Vader. It seem to me that order for a Sith lord Appentice to become the master, it require the Appentice to take on a student to aid in the Destruction of his master.

Remember Doku's attempt to recruit Obawan... It was not only to turn him but to give hime the additional power needed to take the emperors place..No wonder Vader wanted Luke, if luke had to the potential that Vader had they would have kcik the emperor butt easily ( as what happen anyway)..

Remember Vader whole line that not only would they end the war, but that they would rule the galaxy..

At the same time the Emperor ( or Sith Master) would alway have a few potential replacement for his Appentice, just in case he had to kill them..
who better but Vader own son..

Remember on the Death Star the Emperor told luke to strike his father down to an take his father place at his side..

[Vympel]

"Join me, and we can end this destructive conflict, and bring order to the galaxy ... and together, we can rule the galaxy as father and son."

One of the best scenes ever.

Darth Vader for Emperor!

[Isolder74]

"Join me, and we can end this destructive conflict, and bring order to the galaxy ... and together, we can rule the galaxy as father and son."

One of the best scenes ever.

Darth Vader for Emperor!

Yes the climax of the events at Hoth

[Kuja]

Erk...that's Bespin.

[Isolder74]

Erk...that's Bespin.

wich directly results from the events at Hoth

[Kuja]

I know. Just being AR.

[Guest]

Yet they wern't tipped off by an entire Sector Group of ISDs? If ICs are pretty common and disposable as claimed, it would not have been hard for the Empire to deploy a small number at Endor if they'd wanted to. Also if they're capable of affecting a large area as the EU claims, they would've been so useful that it's difficult to see why they didn't want to.

They weren't needed because of the desperation of the Rebels. This was do or die, no going back, and the fleet was there to keep them boxed in and in front of the DS2.

ROFLOL, you call that a blast? More like a brief burst of wind.

As you are well aware Vaders fleet was a roving command, tasked with finding the rebels. Of course he had no idea where the battle might take place, or what equipment the enemy would have. But for precisely that reason, he could be expected to prepare for the most likly scenarios. Establishing a blockade is quite close to the top of the list. There are numerous reasons why he might've needed to implement a blockade given the unpredictable nature of the mission.
What if he'd come across some rebel ships instead of that base? With a few IC's in his Death sqn it would be so much easier to stop them escaping, he'd be mad not to consider them. It doesn't take much imagination to see how useful a few ICs would be to his fleet. You need a better reason than 'He didn't predict the energy shield' to explain their absence.

HE DIDN'T NEED THEM. Remember, the Devastator was able to run down the Tantive-IV over Tatooine, so ISDs aren't exactly helpless at stopping ships from going to hype. Besides, he has an SSD. Would it really be 'mad' to turn down the I-Cs when you have a ship THAT big? The I-Cs might add to the fleet, but ultimately, he might've decided they'd be better used elsewhere.

After the Death Star destroyed the Liberty, didn't Admiral Ackbar order all ships to prepar for retreat? Ackbar was ready and willing to retreat. It was Lando's suggestion to stay in the fight.

[Kuja]

After the Death Star destroyed the Liberty, didn't Admiral Ackbar order all ships to prepar for retreat? Ackbar was ready and willing to retreat. It was Lando's suggestion to stay in the fight.

Yes, that's correct. AA made a snap desicion. Wtching one of your biggest ships blow up in an instant might make you want to retreat too. However, once reminded of the gravity of the situation, he knew they had to stay. There's actually a line that was cut out after Lando said "Han will have that shield down, we've gotta give him more time!" Ackbar nods and says "All right. We're going to stay and fight."

[Guest]

After the Death Star destroyed the Liberty, didn't Admiral Ackbar order all ships to prepar for retreat? Ackbar was ready and willing to retreat. It was Lando's suggestion to stay in the fight.

Yes, that's correct. AA made a snap desicion. Wtching one of your biggest ships blow up in an instant might make you want to retreat too. However, once reminded of the gravity of the situation, he knew they had to stay. There's actually a line that was cut out after Lando said "Han will have that shield down, we've gotta give him more time!" Ackbar nods and says "All right. We're going to stay and fight."

I agree with that explanation. The rebels were betting everything they had that they could destroy the Death Star + the Emperor. Retreating at that point would have only prolonged the inevitable.

BTW, do you know when the interdictors were first mentioned in the EU?