What if the Jedi had to face modern armies?

[Haruhi]

Oh come on, a Jedi is going to be able to psychokinetically protect himself from the dozens or hundreds or thousands of incoming shells or rockets, and then protect himself from all the fragments. Bullshit. And that assumes they are using equivalents to modern weapons rather than the direct-fire energy weapons seen in AOTC, which you can't stop with the Force, for the same reason they can't use the Force to stop blaster bolts.

And you didn't address the "blast the place from orbit" plan. Hell, please tell me how a Jedi will use the Force to protect himself if the other side start using nuclear rounds?

Shields, combat precognition and superspeed to avoid a nuclear explosion, phasing to become intangible, etc.

[Lord Revan]

no man-portable SW shield I know of has been shown to be powerful enough to block 1 kiloton or megaton scale explotions, jedi precogntion is flacky at best and I've never seen jedi being able to maintain superhuman speeds long enough to outpace a nuke.

the fact what during the war against the "true" Sith Empire (aka SW:TOR) Artillery and orbital stikes weren't considered a unless gesture due jedi/sith being immune to them I assume you're seriously over estimating the capabilities of the jedi/sith.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Oh come on, a Jedi is going to be able to psychokinetically protect himself from the dozens or hundreds or thousands of incoming shells or rockets, and then protect himself from all the fragments. Bullshit. And that assumes they are using equivalents to modern weapons rather than the direct-fire energy weapons seen in AOTC, which you can't stop with the Force, for the same reason they can't use the Force to stop blaster bolts.

And you didn't address the "blast the place from orbit" plan. Hell, please tell me how a Jedi will use the Force to protect himself if the other side start using nuclear rounds?

Shields, combat precognition and superspeed to avoid a nuclear explosion, phasing to become intangible, etc.

Bull, bull and more bull. What is this "phasing to become intangible" bollocks? Give me one example from the films or animated series where a Jedi is shown to do that.

As Lord Revan said, the "superspeed" seems really short-duration; for instance, the one time I can recall seeing it, on the TradeFed battleship in TMP, it lasts a couple of seconds, when the Droidekas start following them down the corridor they are still seen running at "normal" speeds for a human.

Plus, the Jedi are never (AFAIK) seen using personal shields and IIRC comments made about them in "The Courtship of Princess Leia" and "Outbound Flight" they are dangerous to organic life forms, hence why we only see them on droidekas.

[Lord Revan]

the fact when jedi seen as leaders of armies they tend to wear armor seems to suggest that force does not in fact give them "make me immune to damage" shield, rather just gives them abilities that when used likely makes the survival in combat easier.

not to mention the 1000 times in SW:TOR where you're given a "take out this artillery emplacement so that we can capture the objective" mission even though both sides had force users again suggest that there's (suprise, suprise) a limit to the ability of the jedi/sith.

oh and then there's the battle of Umbara where the Grand Army of the Republic needs to take out the Umbaran airbase to capture the capital even though they had 2 master rank jedi and 1 knight rank jedi (before he was transferred out, officially out of the fear he might end up KIA).

[Haruhi]

no man-portable SW shield I know of has been shown to be powerful enough to block 1 kiloton or megaton scale explotions, jedi precogntion is flacky at best and I've never seen jedi being able to maintain superhuman speeds long enough to outpace a nuke.

This thread is about how the Jedi should adapt to modern armies, not as they are. We also note that the EU has some things pretty exaggerated.

What is this "phasing to become intangible" bollocks? Give me one example from the films or animated series where a Jedi is shown to do that.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Phase

[Eternal_Freedom]

no man-portable SW shield I know of has been shown to be powerful enough to block 1 kiloton or megaton scale explotions, jedi precogntion is flacky at best and I've never seen jedi being able to maintain superhuman speeds long enough to outpace a nuke.

This thread is about how the Jedi should adapt to modern armies, not as they are. We also note that the EU has some things pretty exaggerated.

Look genius, they can adapt certainly but you can't just invent powers for them out of thin air. You are saying they can adapt and protect themselves, show some fucking evidence that they can do half the crap you claim. Because I know that were I a modern General tasked with dispatching a group of Jedi, I'd use a massed artillery barrage, or a bunch of MLRS tracks en masse, or a BUFF strike, and those Jedi would become little more than artfully sliced and pre-cooked meat.

What is this "phasing to become intangible" bollocks? Give me one example from the films or animated series where a Jedi is shown to do that.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Phase[/quote]

Well shithead, I see you missed the "from the films or animated series" part. You yourself admit, in this very post I'm quoting that stuff from the EU is "pretty exaggerated." Which includes your phasing examples. Incodentally, your example still fails, because two of the three known users gained this power only after exposure to Killik nests or the Abeloth entity, which is hardly a universal trait for Jedi.

[Haruhi]

Look genius, they can adapt certainly but you can't just invent powers for them out of thin air. You are saying they can adapt and protect themselves, show some fucking evidence that they can do half the crap you claim. Because I know that were I a modern General tasked with dispatching a group of Jedi, I'd use a massed artillery barrage, or a bunch of MLRS tracks en masse, or a BUFF strike, and those Jedi would become little more than artfully sliced and pre-cooked meat.

Look shithead, I'm arguing that the Jedi would have to be more powerful to adapt modern warfare, basing on the EU and not pulling it out of thin air. You do not like the jedi as superheroes? Do not answer.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I see you completely ignored my comments about the phasing thing. Fine, you want to know what happens if Jedi face a modern field army? They get fucking slaughtered, because they (and I know this might be hard for a video game fanboy to understand) ARE NOT SOLDIERS. They are commandos, spies, diplomats, NOT soldiers.

If you want to look at how Jedi could conceivably defeat the modern world, fine, use their actual, demonstrated strengths and abilities as infiltrators and commandos. If the Jedi wind up having to face a modern army, they failed.

And you say you are basing your "ideas" on stuff from the EU? Fine, actually show us that they can do this stuff you claim. And when I say "show us" I mean show us Jedi abilities that are widespread, or at least not really rare (like only two or three known users ever) or require exposure to other Force entities like the Killiks, Celestials or Abeloth, because again, that's not common usage.

[Formless]

Look genius, they can adapt certainly but you can't just invent powers for them out of thin air. You are saying they can adapt and protect themselves, show some fucking evidence that they can do half the crap you claim. Because I know that were I a modern General tasked with dispatching a group of Jedi, I'd use a massed artillery barrage, or a bunch of MLRS tracks en masse, or a BUFF strike, and those Jedi would become little more than artfully sliced and pre-cooked meat.

Look shithead, I'm arguing that the Jedi would have to be more powerful to adapt modern warfare, basing on the EU and not pulling it out of thin air. You do not like the jedi as superheroes? Do not answer.

Genius, the rest of us don't take the "Jedi as wank" approach like you do. Even with the EU taken firmly into account, most stories follow the lives of individuals who are extraordinary either because of historical significance or extraordinary ability, and usually both. They are not average even for Force users. For example, the Wall of Light (which is too risky for a single user to initiate without help) is commonly used during the era between the Great Hyperspace War and the last Great Sith War, but the only time we see it used after that is when Luke's early students were forced to finish off Exar Kun's ghost (who is likewise extraordinary; he's so badass that even his spirit is a threat thousands of years after he died). It is therefor reasonable to assume that, with no powerful Sith Lords or Dark Side entities to use it on, knowledge of the ability was lost, forgotten, or forbidden to the Jedi of Yoda's time, probably for being too destructive despite being firmly a Light Side power.

Another example would be Electric judgement. In that case, we know that only a few light side Jedi learned it because it was controversial and dangerously similar to Sith Lightning; thus, it takes a Jedi with exceptional calm and meditation on the Light Side to use it without becoming corrupt.

Third example, and perhaps the most relevant to the primary story of Star Wars. Before Luke Skywalker, the Jedi order didn't believe that a Sith or Dark Jedi could be redeemed. Luke proved that wrong by redeeming Vader, and thus setting a new ideal for later Jedi to follow.

Similarly, this "Phasing" power (*I* would call it in-corporeality for clarity's sake and so I don't sound like a babbling idiot, but I don't write comic books) is only seen demonstrated by Jedi who have come in contact with either the Killiks, or the Dark Side aligned Aboleth entity who also interacted with the Killiks. The Killiks are known for their ability to induct non-insectoid individuals into their hive mind, through pheromones which alter the Corpus Callosum of humans. Now, do you not think that might effect whether a Jedi or Force user in general can learn the ability? You know, just maybe?

Super speed isn't even a known force power. Not at the level of The Flash, which is basically what you need to outrun an explosive shockwave, let alone a nuclear blast.

The same applies to any other Force Power. If it isn't known to be standard training for Jedi, or if there is evidence that only specific people can learn it, the safe assumption is that it requires extraordinary training, mastery or circumstances to learn. Dark Side powers too. Any claim otherwise requires evidence. We can't just rewrite what the Jedi are if the thread is to be meaningful, even if that's what you really want to do.

[Connor MacLeod]

In some eras the Jedi involved in wars.

I think the Jedi would have to train two types of Jedi: Jedi peacekeepers and Jedi warriors. The Jedi warriors would have military training, would go in groups of five or more and would have a particularly strong psyche to avoid falling into the dark side, as they engage in war would be something next to the dark side. One might object that wars are already soldiers, but the soldiers are not usually Force users. Better than normal soldiers are soldiers who can use the Force.

Yes Jedi have been involved in wars, but that doesn't make them soldiers. Also 'warrior' is not neccesarily the same thing as 'soldier.' Lots of other places on the net and elsewhere will wax poetic about whether they are the same things or not, but its pretty easy to tell the Jedi aren't soldiers even if they are warriors by looking at the organization as a whole. Its not very military in ANY respect. There is very little in the way of formalized, standardized training. They do not instill the same sorts of virtues or mindsets. They do not instill the same sorts of skills and they certainly don't even result in the same levels of competencies. Jedi have very little standardization in power/skill/utility of their force powers. Some might be decent telekinetics but others are going to be stronger telepaths. And others may not have any abilities worthwhile in direct combat whastsoever; Coleman Trebor, the guy Jango shot down on Geonosis, was a Council Member and yet he was hardly on the level of certain other Council members (Yoda, Mace Windu, etc.) Perhaps most importantly is their ethical codes - you can debate over the merits and such, but its pretty clear their beliefs do not make them well suited to being soldiers.

The one thing Jedi bring to a conflict is their magic powers, and that assumes the Jedi in question have the right kinds of powers. Precog and extrasensory capabilities (intel and detection advantages), communication (unblockable command and control to some degree), psychological/morale boosting effects (restoring and reinforcing emotional states). Mind influencing and illusion could be useful for demoralizing the enemy (ending conflicts with minimal bloodshed or striking decisive blows. Jedi medics would be of huge use in treating the injured. But telekinesis and similar 'direct' attack powers would actually in a large scale conflict have limited utility compared to artillery and tanks and gunfire (and there's issues whether the Jedi would use direct force powers to injure or kill anyhow.) Any other 'tricks' they may have are probably ancillary and would have little or no effect on a large scale conflict (even the ones I cited as 'useful' would mostly be of limited use unless you had sizable numbers of Jedi working together or the Jedi in question was particularily adept.)

There's also the not-so-trivial aspect of how Star Wars 'warfare' occurs in context to real life warfare, because the two aren't even remotely the same anyhow, but that's a side issue really compared to the rest above.

By and large the idea of Jedi as we've seen them in the Clone Wars cartoon/micro series type stuff pulling the monkey acrobatics and slicing through hordes of enemy is at best an exaggeration (I believe Windu's depiction in the micro series is treated as precisely that.) and at worst fantasy.

[bilateralrope]

If you want to look at how Jedi could conceivably defeat the modern world, fine, use their actual, demonstrated strengths and abilities as infiltrators and commandos. If the Jedi wind up having to face a modern army, they failed.

Forget their infiltration and combat capability. If the Jedi want something from modern Earth, I'd expect them to try negotiation first. Which should go well for the Jedi.

[Eternal_Freedom]

If you want to look at how Jedi could conceivably defeat the modern world, fine, use their actual, demonstrated strengths and abilities as infiltrators and commandos. If the Jedi wind up having to face a modern army, they failed.

Forget their infiltration and combat capability. If the Jedi want something from modern Earth, I'd expect them to try negotiation first. Which should go well for the Jedi.

Exactly.

[Haruhi]

But telekinesis and similar 'direct' attack powers would actually in a large scale conflict have limited utility compared to artillery and tanks and gunfire (and there's issues whether the Jedi would use direct force powers to injure or kill anyhow.)

Okay, but we can give a direct and militar use of psychokinesis, as in The Force Unleashed. What happens is that I would like to change the jedi and you do not.

[Eternal_Freedom]

You want to make the Jedi look like they're playing Jedi Academy with god mode on and force powers turned up to eleven. Protip: that does not make for an interesting story. Trust me, I've done that, the experience was amusing only because of all the Stormies you leave in your wake.

[Haruhi]

You want to make the Jedi look like they're playing Jedi Academy with god mode on and force powers turned up to eleven. Protip: that does not make for an interesting story. Trust me, I've done that, the experience was amusing only because of all the Stormies you leave in your wake.

That would not be with god mode, just more powerful. In my opinion the Advent Rising powers are better than the Jedi Academy powers. The story has nothing to do with this, you can make a good story with characters more powerful.

[Lord Revan]

the thing is the more powerful your characters become, the more careful you must be with the story so it doesn't come boring or unbeliveble.

[Connor MacLeod]

Okay, but we can give a direct and military use of psychokinesis, as in The Force Unleashed. What happens is that I would like to change the jedi and you do not.

Why should we use TFU as the 'typical' depiction of Jedi combat capabilities? We have plenty examples of them using the force in fighting in the movies themselves. And the Clone Wars animated series.

[Batman]

The original question was 'What if the Jedi had to face modern armies', which was what people responded to. What you seem to be asking now is 'Why don't we assume every last Jedi in existence has every last overpowered depiction of every last Force power ever mentioned in the EU'.
No, we don't want to change the Jedi, because guess what, if we do it in the manner you seem to envision, they nor longer are the Jedi as presented in the SW universe. I know some of the stuff Wankatine and Superluke have done (or Exar Kun, or what Luke's pupils did in the never to be sufficiently damned JAT), but the baseline for the average Jedi is rather timid by comparison.

[Lord Revan]

Okay, but we can give a direct and military use of psychokinesis, as in The Force Unleashed. What happens is that I would like to change the jedi and you do not.

Why should we use TFU as the 'typical' depiction of Jedi combat capabilities? We have plenty examples of them using the force in fighting in the movies themselves. And the Clone Wars animated series.

the funny thing is that Galen "starkiller" Marek is considered to be one of the most powerful force users of his generation (IIRC this is even ought right stated in the game).

The original question was 'What if the Jedi had to face modern armies', which was what people responded to. What you seem to be asking now is 'Why don't we assume every last Jedi in existence has every last overpowered depiction of every last Force power ever mentioned in the EU'.
No, we don't want to change the Jedi, because guess what, if we do it in the manner you seem to envision, they nor longer are the Jedi as presented in the SW universe. I know some of the stuff Wankatine and Superluke have done (or Exar Kun, or what Luke's pupils did in the never to be sufficiently damned JAT), but the baseline for the average Jedi is rather timid by comparison.

Haruhi seems to suffer from a rather typical "no limits" falacy as he seems to assume that if you can show that 1 force user somewhere can do a skill, no matter how rare the skill is stated to be or how powerful the force user is, it means that all jedi everywhere can do that skill at the same level and just choose not to.

in short his main problem is that he's unable to assume that others might actually want jedi to be something else then wanked out power fantasy.

As for his "superhero" comment Captain America and Superman are both superheroes with super human abilities (yes I know cap is suppose to be peak human but he's peak human in everything so it still counts) yet there's a major power difference between the 2 with Cap being no stronger then your typical human at peak while Superman lifts continents with ease.

[Haruhi]

in short his main problem is that he's unable to assume that others might actually want jedi to be something else then wanked out power fantasy.

I am not unable to assume this, I simply prefer that the Jedi were more powerful. If SW had started as comics rather than films, then the average Jedi would surely be at the level of the Green Lanterns and Librarians of WH.

[Eternal_Freedom]

in short his main problem is that he's unable to assume that others might actually want jedi to be something else then wanked out power fantasy.

I am not unable to assume this, I simply prefer that the Jedi were more powerful. If SW had started as comics rather than films, then the average Jedi would surely be at the level of the Green Lanterns and Librarians of WH.

No, they might be. If that is the story the writers wanted to tell, they would be that powerful. Since Star Wars is Lucas's vision, I think the Jedi would remain as they are no matter what the medium. Being in a comic does not automatically mean characters will be amazingly powerful.

[Haruhi]

No, they might be. If that is the story the writers wanted to tell, they would be that powerful. Since Star Wars is Lucas's vision, I think the Jedi would remain as they are no matter what the medium. Being in a comic does not automatically mean characters will be amazingly powerful.

Okay, but if SW were originally comic, most likely are that the average jedi were more powerful, because there is a tendency: the characters in comics and novels are usually much more powerful than the characters in movies because it is much more expensive to do these things in movies than in comics.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Again, they might be more powerful, but only if that's required for the story the author wants to tell. You don't seem to get this.

[Lord Revan]

considering (IIRC) GL is top tier in the DC roster with a good portion of the heroes or villains being weaker then the Green Lantern Corps.

again story is everything and just because something is from a comic book, videogame, tabletop game or even a movie doesn't mean anything goes, we don't lament that we weren't given a hand with 5 aces (aka 4 aces and a joker), but rather we play with a hand we're given, even if it's not as powerful as we'd wish it to be, that's just life sure you don't have to like it but you should accept the things you cannot change.

Okay, but if SW were originally comic, most likely are that the average jedi were more powerful, because there is a tendency: the characters in comics and novels are usually much more powerful than the characters in movies because it is much more expensive to do these things in movies than in comics.

maybe, maybe not Batman started out as a comic and he's a mere human and always has been, same with Green Arrow, it always boils down to the story you want to tell not the medium, but in the end that's irrelevant as the OP was "what if Jedi faced a modern army" not "what if Jedi started in comics". You know for someone who claims to get our point, you really seem to have hard time showing it.

[bilateralrope]

I simply prefer that the Jedi were more powerful.

Make the Jedi more powerful and you have to make their opponents more powerful to keep the story interesting.

So, if you make both sides more powerful, what have you really gained ?

I know that there are good, and bad, answers to that question. I want to see what your answer is.