Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

[Grumman]

Were you guys asleep during TPM? He was good. Then he started taking steps on a very slippery slope, and just kept slippin'. What were you expecting?

What I expect is that if murdering an entire village is supposed to be a prelude to something worse, it shouldn't take three bloody years for that slippery slope to reach its inevitable conclusion.

And even if the perception that Anakin was nothing more than a whiny, pathetic loser was true... that just makes the story that much stronger. Who's the man under that badass mask? Just a pathetic little boy, who finally, in the end, decides to grow up in order to save his son.

No, it doesn't. I realise that some people have a hard-on for deconstructions, but taking characters that people enjoy and stripping away everything that made them enjoyable does not make the story stronger.

I love how everyone just glosses over the fact that the men, women and children he slaughtered kidnapped and tortured his mother to death and he got there just in time for her to die in his fucking arms.

No, they didn't. Even if every adult in the camp was complicit in her murder, even if he killed the ones responsible, a decent human being would stop before hacking apart every child in the camp.

[FaxModem1]

Anakin as envisioned by Lucas should never have got as far as he did. For example, Amidala is an idealistic Senator while just during AotC Anakin shows himself to be openly abrasive, a fascist and a war criminal. Surely someone like Amidala would consider "murders children in a blind rage" a turn-off?

Honestly I think that whole love affair is more of a pathological issue than a romantic one. As in, it's not so so much true love as it is Romeo and Juliet. Think about it.
We have a teenaged queen who was thrust into a very traumatic conflict and had to grow up really fast. During this time she was saved not once but twice by the same magically gifted kid and two resident superheroes. After that she joined politics which in the republic obviously means backstabbing and corruption more than anything else. And the only people she can really trust any more are her personal entourage, Palpatine (the irony) and the people who saved her. She would have learned to compromise her ideals to get the job done. And now she has just been pushed into yet another massively traumatic conflict with no end in sight. Her life is once again in danger and once again the superheroes that saved her the first time round came to her rescue. Meanwhile the kid has grown up into a reasonably attractive (he ain't pretty but than again neither is her hair) young man with magical powers.

And let's pause here and look at those magical powers for a second. Because that's what they are. You see, looking at the PT I always got the feeling that the Jedy are the in universe equivalent of the Justice League. As in they are few, have superpowers and maintain the order and justice. The average man knows they exist and in theory looks up to them. But the bottom line is that they are closer to the JLA than they are to the FBI.

So what we basically have is a romance between a teenaged girl that was thrust into the world of adults and than remained in the disillusioning world of republican politics and a traumatized teenaged superhero who had a crush on her since he was 8. I think we can reasonably conclude that they are at the point where reason has taken a back seat. This is clearly a Romeo and Juliet style romance where both sides are willing to kill, be killed or ignore the other sides flaws just as long as they can be together.

You must have rather high standards for beauty then, as Hayden Christensen's looks are about the only thing making Anakin remotely sympathetic in Attack of the Clones.


On Topic: A cameo from Ewan McGregor as Obi Wan or seeing Yoda again wouldn't be out of place, or having some jedi/smuggler/senator/ice cream repairman from the planet of Naboo/Kamino/Mustafar wouldn't be that bad.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

I'd love to see a McGregor cameo. He's basically replaced Guinness in my mind as Obi-Wan. (something else the prequel haters love to gloss over, but that debate is getting stale)

[Metahive]

Were you guys asleep during TPM? He was good. Then he started taking steps on a very slippery slope, and just kept slippin'. What were you expecting?

And even if the perception that Anakin was nothing more than a whiny, pathetic loser was true... that just makes the story that much stronger. Who's the man under that badass mask? Just a pathetic little boy, who finally, in the end, decides to grow up in order to save his son.

Stronger? I beg to differ. In ROTJ Luke wants to redeem his father because he believes he is still a good man or at least once was and Obi-Wan mournfully says that the good man that Anakin once was was replaced by the mechanical monster that is Darth Vader. If Anakin had never been a good man, but a mopey teenager at best and a raging asshole at first, it makes them look delusional and the impact of Vader's redemption is lost.

Thank goodness we have the Clone Wars cartoon because in there he undoubtedly is a heroic and good if flawed person.

[Scrib]

Were you guys asleep during TPM? He was good. Then he started taking steps on a very slippery slope, and just kept slippin'. What were you expecting?

And even if the perception that Anakin was nothing more than a whiny, pathetic loser was true... that just makes the story that much stronger. Who's the man under that badass mask? Just a pathetic little boy, who finally, in the end, decides to grow up in order to save his son.

Stronger? I beg to differ. In ROTJ Luke wants to redeem his father because he believes he is still a good man or at least once was and Obi-Wan mournfully says that the good man that Anakin once was was replaced by the mechanical monster that is Darth Vader. If Anakin had never been a good man, but a mopey teenager at best and a raging asshole at first, it makes them look delusional and the impact of Vader's redemption is lost.

Thank goodness we have the Clone Wars cartoon because in there he undoubtedly is a heroic and good if flawed person.

The two aren't mutually exclusive. Mopiness really only has to do with the good will of the audience quite frankly, we need not conflate it with actual morality.

Whatever can be said about Anakin he fought the Trade Federation, and ,as far as we know did his duty as a Jedi before his fall. Or more importantly as far as Obi-Wan knew(or wanted to believe, or just fucking told Luke to make him feel better). Does he know about the Tusken Raiders? I think you took his word for granted because there wasn't anything else to take and are now mad that he was *gasp* fallible.

[Metahive]

The mopiness makes him unsympathetic though and that makes it harder for the audience to connect to him (at least me and quite a bunch of other). Another problem is that for a heroe's fall to be tragic, the fall has to an actual fall, not just a tripping over a molehill. Anakin joins the bad guys because he's tricked and the only character flaw that is exploited is his gullibility and naivete and there just aren't any glamorous heroics in the movie version of Anakin. He accidentally destroys the Droid control ship, he's beaten to a pulp by Dooku and partly responsible for him getting away and he kills Dooku later in a rather unheroic and vindictive fashion*.

Fallen heroes need to do better than that I'd argue.




*imagine if the scene had played out like this, Palpatine eggs Anakin on, but he refuses to finish Dooku off, so Palpatine does it himself when his back is turned, claiming that it was necessary to end the war quickly, which gives Anakin to think. Later the scene is repeated with Mace Windu, where Anakin this time does finish him off with explanation that killing the most powerful Jedi and the number two in the order hierarchy will prevent a potential civil war or make it easier to fight. This would neatly demonstrate Anakin slipping into darkness.

[Scrib]

Fair enough, that makes sense.

[Tribble]

I'd love to see a McGregor cameo. He's basically replaced Guinness in my mind as Obi-Wan. (something else the prequel haters love to gloss over, but that debate is getting stale)

Thanks for the stereotyping. I don't hate the prequels, rather I am disappointed in the wasted opportunity that Anakin's fall represented. Going by just the movies, by the time he was a teen in AOTC he was already evil. When he is already slaughtering women and children in AOTC*, what else is there to say about him? There was no real change in the character, apart from the fact that he fell into a lava pit in ROTS and had to put on the Darth Vader suit. As Metahive pointed out, his fall was more like tripping over a molehill.

I also enjoyed McGregor's performance, and I would also like to see him in a cameo, so I don't know where you were going with that. "I dislike how the central story played out" does not translate into "I hate all the prequels and everyone in it".

*I love how some people are actually trying to justify/tone down his actions there. Even if all the adult women and men were equally culpable in his mother's death, any person with any sense of morality whatsoever would not go so far as to slaughter a bunch of children.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Were you guys asleep during TPM? He was good. Then he started taking steps on a very slippery slope, and just kept slippin'. What were you expecting?

And even if the perception that Anakin was nothing more than a whiny, pathetic loser was true... that just makes the story that much stronger. Who's the man under that badass mask? Just a pathetic little boy, who finally, in the end, decides to grow up in order to save his son.

Stronger? I beg to differ. In ROTJ Luke wants to redeem his father because he believes he is still a good man or at least once was and Obi-Wan mournfully says that the good man that Anakin once was was replaced by the mechanical monster that is Darth Vader. If Anakin had never been a good man, but a mopey teenager at best and a raging asshole at first, it makes them look delusional and the impact of Vader's redemption is lost.

You know, it's just possible that Obi-Wan's image of Anakin is a result of twenty years living as a hermit, and wanting to remember Anakin as what he could/should have been rather than what he was, or what he became. Anakin looks a lot better when compared to Darth Vader after all.. Add the fact that he's talking to Luke and that sense of nostalgia and rose tinted glasses is only going to get worse.

And that's not before you get to the "it's true from a certain point of view" angle he could be using as well.

[Channel72]

Asshole is an exaggeration. But Metahive said it best:

Was he he an asshole before that? Maybe not, just unsympathetic and unlikable in my opinion and his "fall" therefore something that lacked tragedy. Contrast !Movie-Anakin with !Clone Wars-Anakin who's actually written as a sympathetic character with believable motives that could be exploited by a cunning to tempter to lead to his fall and it becomes all the more glaring. The latter is a guy I would feel bad about becoming a villain, the former not so much.

Anakin was just an unlikable shithead. He reminds me of some whiny, resentful idiot who goes and shoots up a school or something.

Therefore it wasn't particularly compelling when he turned from an unlikable shithead into an outright evil shithead.

[Metahive]

You know, it's just possible that Obi-Wan's image of Anakin is a result of twenty years living as a hermit, and wanting to remember Anakin as what he could/should have been rather than what he was, or what he became. Anakin looks a lot better when compared to Darth Vader after all.. Add the fact that he's talking to Luke and that sense of nostalgia and rose tinted glasses is only going to get worse.

And that's not before you get to the "it's true from a certain point of view" angle he could be using as well.

But would be the point of that? That Anakin was an asshat all along who only at the very tail end of his finally decided to do something decent? This then turns him acting against the emperor from the good man finally clawing his way out of the darkness into an outright Deus Ex Machina. I really don't see how this could make the story stronger. It would gel better with the unlikable Anakin of AOTC and ROTS, but I'm pretty sure he wasn't meant to be unlikable there and it's only a result of Lucas' not doing any rewrites of his first draft.

I also think that the heroic Anakin of Clone Wars is meant to be canonical, isn't he?

[Tribble]

You know, it's just possible that Obi-Wan's image of Anakin is a result of twenty years living as a hermit, and wanting to remember Anakin as what he could/should have been rather than what he was, or what he became. Anakin looks a lot better when compared to Darth Vader after all.. Add the fact that he's talking to Luke and that sense of nostalgia and rose tinted glasses is only going to get worse.

And that's not before you get to the "it's true from a certain point of view" angle he could be using as well.

Obi-Wan's views is irrelevant to my point. Having seen the original trilogy first, my perception as an audience member was that Anakin Skywalker was originally a good man and his fall was a real tragedy. So it was really jarring for me when it turns out that Anakin was never really a good guy at all, and nothing about him really changed apart from falling into a lava pit.

IMO that was the part of the prequels that really didn't work, because if Anakin was fucked up from the beginning of AOTC onwards, what were those two movies about? Not that I hate the movies, I'm just disappointed that their premise didn't actually amount to much.

I also think that the heroic Anakin of Clone Wars is meant to be canonical, isn't he?

Yes, but not everyone has seen Clone Wars. And as Chuck has pointed out numerous times, you don't get credit for something not in the movie... because it's not in the movie. If Anakin was supposed to be a good guy in the films before falling they should have made that clear. Based on what most people have seen, he was emotionally disturbed from the beginning of AOTC, and definitely evil after he slaughtered the women and children in the middle of the movie.

[Metahive]

My allusions to the cartoon series are not meant to excuse the writing of the PT, quite the opposite in fact. IMO they highlight the bad writing of the latter. I'm just using them to demonstrate the fact that the deconstruction of the fallen hero that is offered by some people here as an excuse for !MovieAnakin's attitutede is not intentional as well as being uncanonical.

[Tribble]

Ah, ok, now I get it.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I tihnk you missed my point slightly. Yes, the view we get of Anakin from the OT is of a great hero...but who tells us about Anakin? Off hand, it's Obi-Wan, Yoda and Uncle Owen (who lied anyway). SO the source for those views of Anakin as a great hero comes from two old hermits who deeply regret what happenned and wish it could have been otherwise.

You see? The view we get in the OT is a jaded, nostalgia-laced one.

Now, that doesn't excuse a good chunk of Anakins character, but it does explain why the truth doesn't match up to myth, in-universe or out of it.

[Metahive]

A, but then imagine how Obi Wan would have told the story of Anakin if he had been truthful.

OBI WAN: "When I met your father he was a sweet little kid. Then he grew up and became incredibly whiny and constantly complained about stuff. Then he started killing children and it kind of went downhill from there."
LUKE: "I wish you had lied to me about him. Now I feel like holing myself up in my room forever."
OBI WAN: "Right you do. I mean, you're kind of whiny, better leave you here before you, too, start killing children."
LUKE: "I HATE YOU!"
OBI WAN: "That's what he said."

Final shot, Death Star blows up Yavin 4. The End.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Exactly, it's another excusable "from a certain point of view" comment. Obi-Wan told Luke what he needed to here rather than the truth...so why are we suprised when the truth of the character doesn't reach the dizzying heights of the idealised version?

Just look at people in history who have these great myths of being awesome...but on closer examination prove to be just as human as anyone else, even years (or centuries) later. Why would Star Wars not do something similar? Why should the myth presented in the OT be the same as the character in the prequels?

If Anakin had been portrayed the way Obi-Wan described him, he should never have fallen, because that isn't what heros do. His fall only works because he's human, not some idealised demigod, the Dark Side exploits his weaknesses to make him fall.

Hell, another point to remember is that when Obi-Wan tells Luke about his father and Vader, at that point they were supposed to be different characters, hence that later "certain point of view" line. We already know Obi-Wan was changing/exaggerating details for Luke's benefit, so it's hardly surprising he only gives Luke the broad strokes version "he was a great hero, a good friend, and a great pilot." And (with the possible exception of"good friend" he was all those things.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

I also enjoyed McGregor's performance, and I would also like to see him in a cameo, so I don't know where you were going with that. "I dislike how the central story played out" does not translate into "I hate all the prequels and everyone in it".

Heh, well, if you liked McGregor's performance, then I'm not talking about you.

There are a lot of haters (gonna hate) out there whom I've talked to who hate McGregor's Obi-Wan. The point I was offhandedly making (poorly, admittedly) was that the prequels get a lot of hate, often with absolutely no mention of the things it got right and did very well; McGregor's performance and portrayal of a beloved character being one of them (along with McDiarmid's performance, Neeson's, etc).

[Tribble]

Heh, well, if you liked McGregor's performance, then I'm not talking about you.

There are a lot of haters (gonna hate) out there whom I've talked to who hate McGregor's Obi-Wan. The point I was offhandedly making (poorly, admittedly) was that the prequels get a lot of hate, often with absolutely no mention of the things it got right and did very well; McGregor's performance and portrayal of a beloved character being one of them (along with McDiarmid's performance, Neeson's, etc).

I thank you for clarifying that.

Exactly, it's another excusable "from a certain point of view" comment. Obi-Wan told Luke what he needed to here rather than the truth...so why are we suprised when the truth of the character doesn't reach the dizzying heights of the idealised version?

Just look at people in history who have these great myths of being awesome...but on closer examination prove to be just as human as anyone else, even years (or centuries) later. Why would Star Wars not do something similar? Why should the myth presented in the OT be the same as the character in the prequels?

If Anakin had been portrayed the way Obi-Wan described him, he should never have fallen, because that isn't what heros do. His fall only works because he's human, not some idealised demigod, the Dark Side exploits his weaknesses to make him fall.

Hell, another point to remember is that when Obi-Wan tells Luke about his father and Vader, at that point they were supposed to be different characters, hence that later "certain point of view" line. We already know Obi-Wan was changing/exaggerating details for Luke's benefit, so it's hardly surprising he only gives Luke the broad strokes version "he was a great hero, a good friend, and a great pilot." And (with the possible exception of"good friend" he was all those things.

Again, what fall? What's the difference between Anakin in AOTC and Darth Vader, apart from the suit? From the moment he slaughtered those children in a homicidal rampage, he was evil! Where could he go from there? What could be possibly worse than killing children just because they happen to be there? And it appears that he never told anyone apart from Padme and covered it up because no one else mentions it after that scene. There is not a single hint that he took any responsibility for his actions, or was even inclined to do so. And if he did tell the Jedi and they ignored that clearly psychopathic behaviour, then they are just as evil as he is for condoning it.

I know some people get hard ons for that kind of thing, and for those that do feel free to wank away, but that's not exactly the impression I had of what Star Wars was about.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Well, as to where he coudl go...how about going from killing women and children in a blind psychotic rage to deliberately killing children because they are being trained in a different philosphy? That's further.

And so what if AOTC is the moment of his "fall," it doesn't have to be the end of the story. If AOTC is the point where he crosses the threshold, ROTS cements that because he willingly starts killing children etc, rather than blindly killing them.

[Tribble]

...and that's where we have a difference of opinion. I'm not particularly impressed when Anakin's only character "growth" over two movies, for want of a better term, is merely the reasoning behind why he slaughters children. I was kind of expecting... a bit more to it than that? Hell, in the OT Vader never stooped to personally killing children (yes, he and Tarkin killed plenty with the Death Star, which is an unforgivable crime in itself, but he didn't go down there and start literally chopping up all the kids he could find with his lightsaber).

If you're fine with that, that's great. After all, as Chuck likes to say, I'm just a viewer with an opinion.

[Metahive]

Exactly, it's another excusable "from a certain point of view" comment. Obi-Wan told Luke what he needed to here rather than the truth...so why are we suprised when the truth of the character doesn't reach the dizzying heights of the idealised version?

I don't find it enjoyable to watch Luke trying to redeem a character that never had any redeeming features other than having been a relatively well-adjusted kid which says more about the parents than the kid anyway.

Just look at people in history who have these great myths of being awesome...but on closer examination prove to be just as human as anyone else, even years (or centuries) later. Why would Star Wars not do something similar? Why should the myth presented in the OT be the same as the character in the prequels?

Because it makes for a more satisfying character arc. Kind of asshole becomes even bigger asshole then suddenly has a complete change of heart at the very end of his life, that's a cop-out. Fundamentally good-natured character falls to evil and needs to be brought back to the light is just better than this.

If Anakin had been portrayed the way Obi-Wan described him, he should never have fallen, because that isn't what heros do. His fall only works because he's human, not some idealised demigod, the Dark Side exploits his weaknesses to make him fall.

I don't want Anakin to be an infallible demigod, I want him to be a sympathetic character. Also, fallible heroes are a thing since at least Gilgamesh, the very first recorded heroic epic.

Hell, another point to remember is that when Obi-Wan tells Luke about his father and Vader, at that point they were supposed to be different characters, hence that later "certain point of view" line. We already know Obi-Wan was changing/exaggerating details for Luke's benefit, so it's hardly surprising he only gives Luke the broad strokes version "he was a great hero, a good friend, and a great pilot." And (with the possible exception of"good friend" he was all those things.

Let's see, the classic definition of hero is someone who accomplishes superhuman feats. Anakin hardly stands out in that regard even with his Midichlorians being over 9000. The more modern version of hero is someone who risks his own life and limb for the well-being of others. Again, that's rather limited when it comes to Anakin in the movies. Padme is more of a hero than him since she's risking her life to accomplish good while being just a regular human without Jedi superpowers.
I don't know, but I expected more.

[NecronLord]

This pretty much defines Pure Star Wars, guys. Moved.

[Rogue 9]

I think we're all missing the point here, which is: How many juggawatts will Star Destroyers pack around in their turbolasers in the new movies?

[Crazedwraith]

I'm fully expecting there to be Stargate style orbital bomardments; fire main guns at surace targets. Tiny stage explosions go off around main characters. Everyone screams 'dialable yields, dialable yields!'