6 Reasons The Jedi Would Be The Villain In Any Sane Movie

[Borgholio]

If Windu is to be believed at all, Palpatine already spent a good deal of time putting his people into the courts and the senate. Thus they would probably find some way to exonerate him. This is to assume that Windu is rational of course, which he didn't totally appear to be.

[Galvatron]

I understand that. The idea would be to expose the Chancellor as a Sith Lord to the entire galaxy first.

[FaxModem1]

It is worth noting that Windu and friends were already boarding the transport heading towards Palpatine's office when Anakin intercepted him and revealed that he was a Sith lord. Clearly, they were more interested in Palpatine's holding onto emergency powers during the war, and they note in the film that they are waiting to see if he cedes the powers once Grevious is killed and the war is over.

As for Yoda's attack, that was rather reasonable, considering Palpatine just ordered a hit on Yoda and every Jedi living.

[Alyrium Denryle]

If Windu is to be believed at all, Palpatine already spent a good deal of time putting his people into the courts and the senate. Thus they would probably find some way to exonerate him. This is to assume that Windu is rational of course, which he didn't totally appear to be.

He totally did. Imagine how many little bricks fell into place in Windu's mind once Anakin came to him. Every intelligence leak (and there have been a *lot* of those) every bad deployment that cost good Jedi lives, the continued representation of the Trade Federation in the senate and legitimacy of their contracts etc etc etc.

It is a perfectly rational conclusion

Now, the attempted arrest should have been accompanied by a camera attached to Mace Windu's head

[RogueIce]

Indeed. It was unwise and foolish.

But stepping aside from the much beloved legalistic argument beloved of this site, puts us into 'the right course of action' argument, which is obviously irrefutable. Palpatine was well on his way to becoming a tyrant, and very obviously acting to subvert the liberties of the people, removing him is transparently just, outside the context of the law, assuming you value those liberties.

What they should have done, is brought the entire Jedi Council back to Coruscant and then engaged him. He had trouble with Yoda. Yoda and Windu together would be more than enough.

On a moral basis alone, putting a lightsaber through Palpatine once you are certain that he is a sith lord (as reasonably intuited by your supernatural senses and his confession via Anakin, and definitively proven by how he fights) is clearly morally acceptable, regardless of its legality.

I guess it depends on how you evaluate it.

From an out of universe perspective, where we the audience know the full truth, of course it was the morally correct choice.

From a strictly in-universe perspective, based upon what the characters could reasonably have known, and prove, is where it gets a lot more dubious. Even if they had succeeded - and we know, OOU, they were in the right - what if they couldn't prove his Sithness to the galaxy and the Jedi Order just staged a coup against the legitimate leader (so far as the galaxy knows) of the Galactic Republic? What then? Especially since Palpatine/Sidious would not be around to 'end' the War, so the Separatists could still fit on even without Grievous and/or Dooku (we see in TCW that they do have plenty of other commanders)?

Would it still be moral for Windu to act so hastily then?

[NecronLord]

The novel elaborates that he is planning to alter the constitution to institute perpetual tyranny already. That's what the whole 'committee of the two thousand' thing was about. Reasonable people like Padme Amidala and Bail Organa were already plotting to form a terrorist organization against him at this point.

Unlike his sith status, his tyrannical intent is no secret. Removing him from office is just, if not legal, on those grounds alone.

Presupposing you view tyranny as a bad thing, at any rate.

[Galvatron]

Now, the attempted arrest should have been accompanied by a camera attached to Mace Windu's head

Hell, he should have been accompanied by some Senators and the entire press corps.

[Knife]

I chalk it up to arrogance that the PT was desperate to show the Jedi were. In the grand scheme, the Jedi were not evil or bad, just arrogant and self assured in their role as 'Guardians of the Republic' and not necessarily the self sacrificing people dedicated to service. They fooled themselves that service to the Republic was the same as service to people (sentience). Windu was arrogant in his power and his authority, but he wasn't necessarily wrong in wanting to arrest Palpatine.

[NecronLord]

Oh indeed. I've never argued in any way that the Jedi's actions were wise. Well intentioned, noble and brave, certainly.

But then, the topic is whether they're villainous, not whether they're as cunning political operators as Palpatine. That they're obviously not.

[Galvatron]

I just wish Yoda had been left out of it. A clueless, arrogant Jedi order works better for me if I hadn't grown up believing its leader to be a paragon of wisdom. Yoda should have been living in seclusion on Dagobah the entire time.

[Adam Reynolds]

I just wish Yoda had been left out of it. A clueless, arrogant Jedi order works better for me if I hadn't grown up believing its leader to be a paragon of wisdom. Yoda should have been living in seclusion on Dagobah the entire time.

What is wrong with that? Wisdom often comes from mistakes. And despite his wisdom, he had a fatal flaw not lost by the time of ESB. The Jedi philosophy of non-attachment was based on Yoda's experience outliving most other species. Ultimatley he was was unable to see the forest from the trees, to the point of not caring for individuals. When Anakin asks for advice about saving someone, his advice is to simply let them die. Yoda is essentially amoral.

Even in ESB, he makes the same mistake again when he tells Luke to not leave for Bespin. While Luke was wrong in a sense, as he had no chance against Vader, he was right in that without Luke and more importantly R2, Leia and company would have been recaptured by the Empire.

[Galvatron]

Oh understand that, it's just a personal preference. Just like one can explain the logic behind a moody, bratty, emo Anakin turning into Vader; none of that matters when it comes down to the fact that I simply would have preferred a different approach. Similarly, I would have saved Yoda's first appearance for TESB.

Then again, I'm well known for having a lot of unconventional ideas for how the prequels should have been done.

[Metahive]

That only makes sense if Palpatine didn't have the means to end the war whenever it was convenient for him...

He didn't just need to end the war, but also end it in a way that enabled him to neutralize the Jedi and make him absolute and undisputed ruler. If he just pressed the button to switch the Droid armies off, sure he would probably gain in popularity for winning the war, but so would the Jedi who provided a good bit of the military leadership and he'd be back at square one. He would have had a much harder time explaining the Jedi massacre if they hadn't gone after him first.

[Adam Reynolds]

This is only tangentially related, but I wonder what would happen to the Clone Wars if Mace Windu succeeded. Would the CIS leaders surrender, or would they fight on, secure in their hidden base on Mustafar? The Jedi could negotiate a settlement, but that would be difficult while also struggling to rebuild the Republic during the political upheaval.

[The Romulan Republic]

The novel elaborates that he is planning to alter the constitution to institute perpetual tyranny already. That's what the whole 'committee of the two thousand' thing was about. Reasonable people like Padme Amidala and Bail Organa were already plotting to form a terrorist organization against him at this point.

Unlike his sith status, his tyrannical intent is no secret. Removing him from office is just, if not legal, on those grounds alone.

Presupposing you view tyranny as a bad thing, at any rate.

I was under the impression that the committee of two thousand was political opposition.

And referring to the Rebellion as terrorists is really dubious at best. I don't recall them, at any point in canon, attacking anything that wasn't a military target or conducting attacks to cause fear.

[Metahive]

This is only tangentially related, but I wonder what would happen to the Clone Wars if Mace Windu succeeded. Would the CIS leaders surrender, or would they fight on, secure in their hidden base on Mustafar? The Jedi could negotiate a settlement, but that would be difficult while also struggling to rebuild the Republic during the political upheaval.

I have a hard time believing the Separatist leaders would actually stick together without someone leading them. What would happen is that the CIS would succumb to infighting pretty quickly. I mean the Trade Federation joined them just because Gunray wanted to exact some petty vengeance on Amidala, that doesn't scream "conviction for the cause" to me.

[NecronLord]

This is only tangentially related, but I wonder what would happen to the Clone Wars if Mace Windu succeeded. Would the CIS leaders surrender, or would they fight on, secure in their hidden base on Mustafar? The Jedi could negotiate a settlement, but that would be difficult while also struggling to rebuild the Republic during the political upheaval.

Why would they be secure? Palpatine's office was set up (as shown in the novel, where he directly communicates that he is sending his 'new apprentice Lord Vader') to directly signal Mustafar. There's no reason to believe a complete search of Palpatine's effects wouldn't discover details of where the Seperatists are. Likewise whatever IFF Anakin used to land on Mustafar must have been recieved while in Palpatine's office. So they could easily find that.

The only difference would be that it would be Windu instead of Vader on Mustafar, and he'd be taking prisoners.

I was under the impression that the committee of two thousand was political opposition.

And referring to the Rebellion as terrorists is really dubious at best. I don't recall them, at any point in canon, attacking anything that wasn't a military target or conducting attacks to cause fear.

Freedom fighters, then. This scene survives in the novel:

[Galvatron]

I'm actually surprised that Palpatine had Vader shut down the droid army instead of simply installing a new puppet to take over. He should have perpetuated the war in true Orwellian fashion in order to justify the Empire's continuous military buildup.

[RogueIce]

Is the novel fully canon still? I don't recall how that played out.

Why would they be secure? Palpatine's office was set up (as shown in the novel, where he directly communicates that he is sending his 'new apprentice Lord Vader') to directly signal Mustafar. There's no reason to believe a complete search of Palpatine's effects wouldn't discover details of where the Seperatists are. Likewise whatever IFF Anakin used to land on Mustafar must have been recieved while in Palpatine's office. So they could easily find that.

See novel reference above, though I don't recall where he contacted them from in the movie, as far as calling up the CIS leaders.

As for the IFF...you're assuming a lot here. We know, at the very least, Palpatine went off to see Vader at the Jedi Temple, and then Anakin went off to see Padme before he actually went to Mustafar. There's no reason to think he must have had that in his office. For all we know they went to his Secret Sith Lair which I'm not sure the Jedi knew the location of in the New Canon.

You're also assuming this search will happen instantaneously, that they will find everything right at the get-go, and then be able to use what they find just like that. Never mind that Windu will have his hands full taking control of the Senate. And even the likes of Organa, Amidala and Mothma might have issues with him straight up assassinating the Chancellor like that. And even if every last one of the 2000 are cool with it, what about the rest of the Senate? Not only did they seem to accept the Jedi as evil coup launchers - which is what they were doing even granted it was "morally justified" - pretty quickly, they also accepted Palpatine reforming the Republic into the Empire with "thunderous applause" to quote Senator Amidala.

I don't think the transition will be anywhere near as smooth as you think. Palpatine is incredibly popular with most of the Senate, and the Jedi...well, we don't really know for sure, but they didn't seem to have many issues believing the worst about the Order and having Jedicide happen almost out of the blue, so... I'm not putting a lot of faith into how much moral authority the Jedi Order still maintains.

And again, that's assuming they pull incontrovertible proof of Palpatine's misdeeds from wherever Palpatine hid them almost immediately after killing the guy.

[NecronLord]

He hid them three feet above his private desk.

The novel is a canon source still as I understand it, I may be mistaken. It describes his alternate outfit in a compartment in the ceiling above his desk and one of his lightsabers in a statue there. It is the only remaining canon source on where he kept his secrets, apart from the site in The Works from AotC.

As a Jedi shuttle settled to the landing deck outside, the shadow sent its mind into the far deeper night within one of the several pieces of sculpture that graced the office: an abstract twist of solid neuranium, so heavy that the office floor had been specially reinforced to bear its weight, so dense that more sensitive species might, from very close range, actually percieve the tiny warping of the fabric of space-time that was its gravitation.

Neuranium of more than roughly a millimeter thick is impervious to sensors; the standard security scans undergone by all equipment and furniture to enter the Senate Office Building had shown nothing at all. If anyone had thought to use an advanced gravimetric detector, however, they might have discovered that one smallish section of the sculpture massed slightly less than it should have, given that the manifest that had accompanied it, when it was brought from Naboo among the then-ambassador's personal effects, clearly stated that it was a single piece of solid-forged neuranium.

The manifest was a lie. The sculpture was not entirely solid, and not all of it was neuranium.

Within a long, slim, rod-shaped cavity around which the sculpture had been forged rested a device that had lain, waiting, in absolute darkness-darkness beyond darkness-for decades.

Waiting for night to fall on the Republic.

The shadow felt Jedi Masters stride the vast echoic emptiness of the vaulted halls outside. It could practically hear the cadence of their boot heels on the Alderaanian marble.

The darkness within the sculpture whispered of the shape and the feel and every intimate resonance of the device it cradled With a twist of its will, the shadow triggered the device.

The neuranium got warm.

A small round spot, smaller than the circle a human child might make of thumb and forefinger, turned the color of old blood.

Then fresh blood.

Then open flame.

Finally a spear of scarlet energy lanced free, painting the office with the color of stars seen through the smoke of burning planets.

The spear of energy lengthened, drawing with it out from the darkness the device, then the scarlet blade shrank away and the device slid itself within the softer darkness of a sleeve.

He gestured, and a hidden compartment opened in the office's ceiling above his desk. A voluminous robe of heavy black-on-black brocade floated downward from it; Anakin felt the current in the Force that carried the robe to Palpatine's hand.

He remembered playing a Force game with a shuura fruit, sitting across a long table from Padme in the retreat by the lake on Naboo. He remembered telling her how grumpy Obi-Wan would be to see him use the Force so casually.

Palpatine seemed to catch his thought; he gave a yellow sidelong glance as the robe settled onto his shoulders.

"You must learn to cast off the petty restraints that the Jedi have tried to place upon your power," he said. "Anakin, it's time. I need you to help me restore order to the galaxy."

And most explicitly:

A silvery flash outside caught Darth Vader's eye, as though an elegantly curved mirror swung through the smoke and cinders, picking up the shine of white-hot lava. From one knee, he could look right through the holoscan of his Master while he continued his report.

He was no longer afraid; he was too busy pretending to be respectful.

"The Separatist leadership is no more, my Master."

"It is finished, then." The image offered a translucent mockery of a smile. "You have restored peace and justice to the galaxy, Lord Vader."

"That is my sole ambition. Master."

The image tilted its head, its smile twisting without transition to a scowl. "Lord Vader-I sense a disturbance in the Force. You may be in danger."

He glanced at the mirror flash outside; he knew that ship. In danger of being kissed to death, perhaps . . . "How should I be in danger, Master?"

"I cannot say. But the danger is real; be mindful." Be mindful, be mindful, he thought with a mental sneer. Is that the best you can do? I could get that much from Obi-Wan . . . "I will, my Master. Thank you." The image faded.

He got to his feet, and now the sneer was on his lips and in his eyes. "You're the one who should be mindful, my 'Master.' I am a disturbance in the Force."
[...]
The holding office of the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic comprised the nether vertex of the Senate Arena; it was little more than a circular preparations area, a green room, where guests of the Chancellor might be entertained before entering the Senate Podium-the circular pod on its immense hydraulic pillar, which contained controls that coordinated the movement of floating Senate delegation pods-and rising into the focal point of the chamber above.

Above that podium, the vast holopresence of a kneeling Sith bowed before a shadow that stood below. Guards in scarlet flanked the shadow; a Chagrian toady cringed nearby.

"But the danger is real; be mindful."

"I will, my Master. Thank you."

The holopresence faded, and where its huge translucency had knelt was now revealed another presence, a physical presence, tiny and aged, clad in robes and leaning on a twist of wood. But his physical presence was an illusion; the truth of him could be seen only in the Force.

Here we see Palpatine in one of his official offices (the one below the Senate Rotunda, just before the Yoda fight) using the communications equipment there to talk directly to Mustafar. While it is possible to presume that this was a change made after the declaration of Empire, in the day or so since Windu's attack (Padme says 'all afternoon' during Palpatine's speech) the simplest explanation is the most probable, that he had that equipment for speaking directly to Mustafar on his official premises. It could be that anyone could send signals, of course, but again, that implies a level of complexity beyond simply having the place set up to run the Seperatists.

The Clone Wars features an arc (Sabotage) showing Jedi forensic droids in action. They are very impressive, able to detect traces of nano-droids after the host that they were in has been completely vapourised, it seems likely they can find hidden compartments, and possess the best scanning equipment.

[Patroklos]

This is only tangentially related, but I wonder what would happen to the Clone Wars if Mace Windu succeeded. Would the CIS leaders surrender, or would they fight on, secure in their hidden base on Mustafar? The Jedi could negotiate a settlement, but that would be difficult while also struggling to rebuild the Republic during the political upheaval.

I have a hard time believing the Separatist leaders would actually stick together without someone leading them. What would happen is that the CIS would succumb to infighting pretty quickly. I mean the Trade Federation joined them just because Gunray wanted to exact some petty vengeance on Amidala, that doesn't scream "conviction for the cause" to me.

The problem is, as TPM shows quite clearly, the Senate itself minus the machinations of Paltantine suffered the same problem and had for thousands of years prior to the events we see. Palpantine exploited the Senates fractious nature to do what we see, he didn't create it.

Also, Palpantine was manipulating the war from BOTH ends. He wasn't just hamstringing one side against the other, but was actively nerfing both sides to provide for a stalemate that made his continued leadership as either Palpantine or Sidious depending on the audience a necessity. For all we know minus Sidious manipulating the deployment of the droid armies back CIS would have curb stomped the Repiblic or visa versa. We really don't know since he basically just ordered the CIS to stand down (or alternately ordered them into losing positions) when convenient. Conversely were the jedi actually any good as military leaders or was Palpantine just throwing them bones now and then? The same could go for Grievous. We will never know.

[Simon_Jester]

I'm actually surprised that Palpatine had Vader shut down the droid army instead of simply installing a new puppet to take over. He should have perpetuated the war in true Orwellian fashion in order to justify the Empire's continuous military buildup.

Ah, but perhaps he didn't want the Empire to continue building up indefinitely, necessarily- he just wanted 'enough' military forces.

For purposes of maintaining tyranny through force, you don't actually need a huge army, you need a very loyal army. Political reliability counts for more than numbers, because in the event of a rebellion your own army's numbers can be turned against you.

So it would actually make sense for Palpatine, now that he has a large army of his own, to declare peace and begin restructuring that army (and the civilian government) into an organization he can rely on to carry out his oppressive desires. You can't do that kind of restructuring in wartime unless you want to make yourself vulnerable to the enemy. And even Palpatine's control of the Separatists might not enable him to outright prevent them from seizing a war-winning advantage like "the Chancellor is purging the armed forces."

[Eternal_Freedom]

[

For purposes of maintaining tyranny through force, you don't actually need a huge army, you need a very loyal army. Political reliability counts for more than numbers, because in the event of a rebellion your own army's numbers can be turned against you.

And for this, the Clones are far superior to the droids. Droids could be re-programmed to rebel against him. Clones are indoctrinated from birth (and possibly genetically engineered) to be loyal to the Chancellor and the Republic, in whatever form they take.

[NecronLord]

For purposes of maintaining tyranny through force, you don't actually need a huge army, you need a very loyal army. Political reliability counts for more than numbers, because in the event of a rebellion your own army's numbers can be turned against you.

And for this, the Clones are far superior to the droids. Droids could be re-programmed to rebel against him. Clones are indoctrinated from birth (and possibly genetically engineered) to be loyal to the Chancellor and the Republic, in whatever form they take.

The last season of The Clone Wars has some content on this.

That said, spoilers for Clone Wars and the Rebels S2 trailer follow:
Spoiler

There are some clones with the Rebellion, or at least helping them and attacking Imperial troopers. It was shown in Clone Wars that there's an bio-organic implant in their brains responsible for maintaining their conditioning, though, and it's possible that Captain Rex & his crew have had those removed, it's possible to do it reasonably easily (we see a medical droid do one without specialist skill IIRC) if you know it's there.

[Cykeisme]

Just a minor curiosity.. if Mace Windu had gone public with the revelation (or at least his suspicions with some evidence) that Palpatine was a Sith Lord, would this have had the effect of discrediting the Chancellor?

I'm not completely sure, but in the Galactic Civil War era (OT trilogy), was Darth Vader's title as a "Dark Lord of the Sith" known to the galactic public?
If so, did this title simply have no meaning to the public, or were the Sith simply deliberately flouting it in the face of the nigh-helpless populace (they no longer cared about their approval rating)?


Note: Certainly, accusing or revealing Palpatine as having orchestrated the entire Clone Wars would have done the job, but I'm just talking about his status as a "Sith Lord".


Edit: Palpatine's extended conversation with Windu in the RotS novelization, during the arrest attempt, seems to indicate that it wouldn't be a problem with the public, no?