Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

[RogueIce]

So, two new data points from Rebels season 3:


Captain Slavin

It is worth noting he has only one code cylinder, as ESB would have us expect. Recall that Grint and Aresko had two cylinders, and most of the generic Imperial officers also have a pair of cylinders, so Slavin having a single cylinder is clearly a deliberate choice on the part of the creators.


Commander Titus

Clearly demoted from the last time we saw him, he also has an entirely new rank insignia that, as I recall, was not seen in ANH. If anyone is better at interpreting what Dr. Saxton did here and here perhaps we could work it back to see what it would (theoretically) represent in, say, the ESB schema? I've tried but I have to admit I don't know how to translate it.

[eMeM]

In Rebels there are also insignia on collars, I don't think we've seen those in the movies so I'm not quite sure why would they want to add those.
Captain Slavin and Governor Pryce both have two black trianges pointing inwards:


Tarkin has a triangle cut in two and a horizontal line:


Thrawn has silver rectangles and triangles poining outwards:


It's not just Rebels aesthetics thing, they are present on the Thrawn book cover:

[Elheru Aran]

Possibly it's something the SW design team is playing with for the interim period between PT and OT? Something to distinguish the period?

[Thanas]

My guess: Inward = political ranks and people tasked with keeping the poliical order, outwards = military ranks. You know, the old difference between interior and exterior forces.

[Elheru Aran]

My guess: Inward = political ranks and people tasked with keeping the poliical order, outwards = military ranks. You know, the old difference between interior and exterior forces.

So why does Captain Slavin have inward triangles, and Commander Titus a pair of odd chevron or L-shaped pins? (though not having seen Rebels, Slavin could be some kind of political officer keeping an eye on Thrawn... but it would be odd to be so overt about it)

[RogueIce]

My guess: Inward = political ranks and people tasked with keeping the poliical order, outwards = military ranks. You know, the old difference between interior and exterior forces.

So why does Captain Slavin have inward triangles, and Commander Titus a pair of odd chevron or L-shaped pins? (though not having seen Rebels, Slavin could be some kind of political officer keeping an eye on Thrawn... but it would be odd to be so overt about it)

The solid inward triangles are most common it seems. In addition to Governor Pryce and Captain Slavin, Admiral Konstantine, Aresko and Grint, and that officer whose name I forget from the Chopper episode where he meets the Imperial droid and befriends him all have that same insignia.

Agent Kallus has had two different devices that are unique to him: first collar device, second collar device.

Junior officers ([1], [2], [3]) and Enlisted crewers ([1], [2]) lack collar devices entirely.

With the above, it would be tempting to list them as some kind of "seniority marker" like these for contemporary military uniforms but Governor Pryce kind of throws that out the window, as does Admiral/Commander Titus having his own unique insignia despite the demotion.

[RogueIce]

Past the edit window, and mostly posted as a matter of confirmation, but Pablo Hidalgo confirmed that the Episode 6 ranks were all wrong, and so we shouldn't take them seriously. Also they were Commander insignia, apparently.

[The_Saint]

Random thought (considering someone's opinion that the yellow coloured squares could represent staff positions):

Previously I (along with some others) debated whether the coloured squares could represent those commands UNDER the person wearing them.

Along with assuming code cylinders being outside of rank it seemed to work for the ANH schema.

Interesting that Pablo Hidalgo has not only confirmed the RotJ schema problem but in my opnion has confirmed that that rank plaque alone represents "Commander"...

[Thanas]

Another thing - maybe they just represent commands. Like for example each Admiral had his own flag in history, maybe now each command has his own insignia.

[NecronLord]

Random thought (considering someone's opinion that the yellow coloured squares could represent staff positions):

Previously I (along with some others) debated whether the coloured squares could represent those commands UNDER the person wearing them.

Along with assuming code cylinders being outside of rank it seemed to work for the ANH schema.

Interesting that Pablo Hidalgo has not only confirmed the RotJ schema problem but in my opnion has confirmed that that rank plaque alone represents "Commander"...

That's not really new, Pablo has put forward EU based ideas for a long time. Of course, that doesn't match up with the films, where Captain Piett and various naval commanders have the same plaque.

It certainly makes sense that way, but it cannot be reconciled with ESB.

[RogueIce]

Random thought (considering someone's opinion that the yellow coloured squares could represent staff positions):

Previously I (along with some others) debated whether the coloured squares could represent those commands UNDER the person wearing them.

Along with assuming code cylinders being outside of rank it seemed to work for the ANH schema.

Interesting that Pablo Hidalgo has not only confirmed the RotJ schema problem but in my opnion has confirmed that that rank plaque alone represents "Commander"...

That's not really new, Pablo has put forward EU based ideas for a long time. Of course, that doesn't match up with the films, where Captain Piett and various naval commanders have the same plaque.

It certainly makes sense that way, but it cannot be reconciled with ESB.

To be fair, even Dr. Saxton states they're Commander badges:

• "Blooper: Many of the rank badges in Return of the Jedi cannot be given serious attention, unfortunately. All of the rank badges in the film were accidentally made as naval Commander badges, even those of Admiral Piett and Moff Jerjerrod."

And while that holds true for Jerjerrod (two cylinders), I think most of them are actually Captain because from a few of the screengrabs I saw from Google, they only had the one code cylinder. So, properly, it was "EVERYONE A (NAVAL) CAPTAIN DAY" at Endor.

Some still have two cylinders, though, like this guy but it's a mix, as you can see here and especially here where, amusingly, Moff Jerjerrod is actually the junior officer present.

[Tiriol]

The idea of rank badge colors representing functions (like gold for administration/staff office/political office, red for combat personnel, blue for vehicles etc.) does, for some reason, strike me as rather elegant solution, but then again the number of badge insignia is still problematic (COMMANDER Titus having just two badge squares (while previously being an Admiral and as such part of the naval forces), when compared to Captain Slavin, who appears to operate as an Army officer, with six squares in total).

Maybe the collar insignia don't necessarily indicate rank, but indeed various commands? Tarkin would have (if we loan Legends for a bit) Oversector Outer as his command and Governor Pryce would have insignia for Lothal and associated sector(s), Thrawn would have his own command insignia for the fleet he commands etc. ISB does have somewhat different rank structure to begin with, so their collar insignia (which is unique to Agent Kallus) would have some other function as well (the shift from white-red structure to a more elaborate white-gold structure on Kallus's collar could indicate that as part of his promotion he has also become a more admistrative official in the ISB itself).

The uniforms are still a mess. Wookieepedia, unsourced, still claims that black uniform is attached to stromtrooper officers, NCOs and to intelligence functions. However, now that the new EU treats stromtroopers basically as the Army itself, it becomes a bit strange to think that it would be associated with specifically stormtroopers. My guess is that black uniform is reserved for special operations and projects (the Death Star projects both seemed to have black-uniformed officers running around and Titus was also in charge of an experimental interdictor cruiser) and maybe for intelligence and security functions (we know that Yularen is still canonically an ISB functionary in ANH, but his cream-white tunic might be an indication of high rank within the ISB itself, a walking-out uniform as it were). Maybe the black-uniformed officers are supposed to be removed from ordinary chain of command within the military unless their specific duties and commands specifically place them there (a bit like Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS situation).

[NecronLord]

So, what do we think of Governor Price? Her chest-board is the same as Tarkin's, her collar ornamentation is less complex, and she has less rank cylinders. It seems like a clincher for either the Rebels collar ornaments, or the cylinders, being indicative of rank. I'm currently inclined to think the collar ornaments are rank related, because on some occasions senior officers with the same plaque have less cylinders, on others, more.

[RogueIce]

So, what do we think of Governor Price? Her chest-board is the same as Tarkin's, her collar ornamentation is less complex, and she has less rank cylinders. It seems like a clincher for either the Rebels collar ornaments, or the cylinders, being indicative of rank. I'm currently inclined to think the collar ornaments are rank related, because on some occasions senior officers with the same plaque have less cylinders, on others, more.

Only thing there is that we've seen Lieutenants to Admirals (and a Governor) with the same collar insignia, so what if anything it's supposed to differentiate seems to be pretty broad.

Having it indicate some kind of unit or geographic designation is attractive, but IIRC they've encountered Imperials well outside of the Lothal System with that same device, so it must be a pretty big area. Maybe they've just been in this same Sector, wherever it is, the whole time?

EDIT: Just remembered Captain Slavin. Yeah, is Ryloth supposed to be in the same general area of the galaxy as Lothal?

Why Governor Pryce has the same rank plaque as Tarkin, yet appears to be his subordinate, is odd. Especially when Canon already showed us a Moff rank plaque, courtesy of Tarkin earlier in his career. That would have been better, but who knows if the Rebels art team even knew about that?

[eMeM]

According to the Galactic Atlas Ryloth is on the other side of the Galaxy.
https://jedi-bibliothek.de/blog/wp-cont ... 3prev1.jpg

Unrelated note: Lothal is suspiciously close to Mon Cala.


Even more unrelated note, is Starkiller Base... Illum?

[Galvatron]

So, what do we think of Governor Price?

Am I the only one who noticed that her uniform is a different shade of grey than the others? It's not obvious until you see her standing right next to another Imperial in a grey uniform.

Even more unrelated note, is Starkiller Base... Illum?

That's been all but confirmed, I believe. Not sure why Pablo won't just outright say so.

[Galvatron]

More about uniform color difference: here's Governor Pryce (right) with some other Imperial officer behind her in the same frame under the same lighting. Note that Pryce's uniform is unmistakably grey, not olive-grey. The officer behind her has the darker olive-grey uniform.



So because I always thought it was just the lighting that made the uniforms look slightly different, I watched the meeting scene in ANH to compare the uniforms there as well. Note that Tarkin and Motti have the olive-grey uniforms while Tagge and Bast have the grey ones.



I believe all the Imperials shown in TESB and ROTJ had the grey uniforms. It's my belief that they never used the white or the olive-grey uniforms again after ANH.

[Lord Revan]

I'm pretty sure Veers had olive-grey uniform so maybe a branch diffence?

[Galvatron]

Here's a screen grab from TESB showing Veers, Ozzel and Piett all in the same shot. Do their uniforms look olive-grey to you?

[Lord Revan]

nope, I guess I was wrong on that matter then. It could possibly be a swap uniform design that was underway during rebels/ANH explaining why some officers have old style uniforms while others don't.

[eMeM]

From the latest Rebels episode:
Lieutenant:

Two red over two blue, one code cylinder, consistent with Saxton's table in the first post. Nothing on the colar.

[Himser]

Its going to be very interesting once we see the new stuff come out, even in the trailers we see new ranks in Rouge One. not sure if we need spoilers for ranks.
Spoiler

We do see lots of new stuff, one row of 6 of blue on a Starship Officer, lots of 2 red one blue ranks on jr officers, Galen Ursos science officer badge, the "director" rank of 6 red above blue which is clearly a promotion from a "general" rank of 6 red, im pretty sure i saw a 2 button blue on the Gate. without stills its going to be hard, but its very interesting. especially for me as i have always enjoyed the ANH ranks considerably more then the bland ESB or ROTJ ranks.

[MKSheppard]

At some point, it'll be cheap enough to Special Special Edition these annoying rank discrepancies away and establish a unified system based on ESB/ROTJ.

[Himser]

At some point, it'll be cheap enough to Special Special Edition these annoying rank discrepancies away and establish a unified system based on ESB/ROTJ.

or R1/ANH :p

[eMeM]

So the white tunic with black trousers and a black hat got retconned as representing the Corps of Engineers, correct?