Maximum Power of the Jedi

[une]

On the topic of the Force and Jedi/Dark Jedi powers Yoda and Mace did say that the Jedi's ability to use the Force has been diminished (by the Sith), and it was implied by those two that it was great enough that it was so severe that non-Jedi can seriously hurt the Jedi. Just note the fact that the closest that a non-Jedi has ever done harm to a Jedi in film canon (previous to AOTC) was one of Jabba's men hitting the back of Luke's prothetic hand.

They never said that. They said that their ability to use the Force had dimisnished, and they never directly linked it to the Sith. They said the Sith knew about it, but they never said the Sith caused it or even implied that they did. Basically it could be the natural way of the Force to gravitate toawards one side for a period of time and then gravitate towards another side for another period of time.

And it was never implied that their actual power in the Force had been drastically weakened. It was implied that their clarivoyance and awarness were weakened somewhat, but that's it.


Of course if you can provide me with a quote that disaproves me on any of this I'll gladly concede my points.

His Divine Shadow
Canon policy > you
ICS and the VD is canon because canon policy dictates that it's so, it's the same with the novellizations and scripts, because they all work directly in conjuction with the movie and therefore the official story of SW.

"Canon refers to an authoritative list of books that the Lucas Licensing editors consider an authentic part of the official Star Wars history"
This includes the novellizations, Radio Dramatizations, scripts and any books based directly on the movie in question, wich means the ICS and Visual Dictionary.

Alternate quote: When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves - and only the films.

The quote you are bringing up, seems to refer to the official Star Wars universe. That's the key word, official. As in the universe of the EU. Which only means that there are books within the EU that are of a higher status than the others.

[His Divine Shadow]

And it was never implied that their actual power in the Force had been drastically weakened. It was implied that their clarivoyance and awarness were weakened somewhat, but that's it.

Incorrect, it was never implied that only their clairvoyance has been affected, it was clearly meant as their power in the force has grown weaker.

And that interpreptation looses by default since it's apparently here to hopefully create some kind of contradiction, or atleast imply it.

Even so, that means their main ability for fighting effectively has been severely compromised.

But...
MACE: "I think it's time we inform the Senate that our ability to use the force has diminished"

It says nothing about their clairvoyance only, it just says they have grown weaker, because the force is not at balance I think.

[Yoda]No Dark, only light, balance there must be, or the galaxy, undone, will be...[/Yoda]

Alternate quote: When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves - and only the films.

The quote you are bringing up, seems to refer to the official Star Wars universe. That's the key word, official. As in the universe of the EU. Which only means that there are books within the EU that are of a higher status than the others

No it's not, it clearly says canon, the quote I am bringing up refers to canon sources like the Novellizations, scripts, Radio Dramatizations and so on, things wich are clearly defined as canon.
It also says official and authentic SW story, not "official material", and it still says canon, nomatter what, canon cannot be mis-interprepted in any other way, ever.

That quote you have is alternate yes, but does not in any way contradict the quote I showed, because we all know that the ultimate canon is the films, big deal, it's like pointing out that the sky is blue and not purple.
you also misquote it.

This continues on from where you snipped it:
"Even novelizations are interpretations of the film, and while they are largely true to George Lucas’ vision (he works quite closely with the novel authors), the method in which they are written does allow for some minor differences. The novelizations are written concurrently with the film’s production, so variations in detail do creep in from time to time. Nonetheless, they should be regarded as very accurate depictions of the fictional Star Wars movies."

It goes on and on and on even after this though.

[une]

Incorrect, it was never implied that only their clairvoyance has been affected, it was clearly meant as their power in the force has grown weaker.

And that interpreptation looses by default since it's apparently here to hopefully create some kind of contradiction, or atleast imply it.

Even so, that means their main ability for fighting effectively has been severely compromised.

But...
MACE: "I think it's time we inform the Senate that our ability to use the force has diminished"

It says nothing about their clairvoyance only, it just says they have grown weaker, because the force is not at balance I think.

[Yoda]No Dark, only light, balance there must be, or the galaxy, undone, will be...[/Yoda]

The quote your bringing up was in direct refference to them not being able to see the creation of the clone army. Everytime they bring up how the Force has been weakened it's always in referrence to their awarness, or clarivoyance, being weakened. Add to that we never see any evidence that their physical abilities have been weakened in any way and you come to the conclusion that their awareness was the ture thing tha was weakened.

No it's not, it clearly says canon, the quote I am bringing up refers to canon sources like the Novellizations, scripts, Radio Dramatizations and so on, things wich are clearly defined as canon.
It also says official and authentic SW story, not "official material", and it still says canon, nomatter what, canon cannot be mis-interprepted in any other way, ever.

I'm not misinterpeting canon. I'm saying that from the quote, which only mentions books and says nothing of radio dramas or scripts by the way, is in refferrence to a type of canon that governs the official material. The use of the term "official" supports that because the term "official" is only used in refference to the EU. It's doubtful that they would use the term "official" if they were talking about anything beyond the "Official" (EU) universe.

That quote you have is alternate yes, but does not in any way contradict the quote I showed, because we all know that the ultimate canon is the films, big deal, it's like pointing out that the sky is blue and not purple.

Oh, but it does. In your quote it talks about being part of the authentic part of the official Star Wars universe. Now, if your view on your quote is to be believed then through the use of the term of "authentic" then those books also represent a "true" vision of the Star Wars universe. Which is in direct contradiction to my quote which says the films and only the films are the real version of the Star wars universe.

you also misquote it.

This continues on from where you snipped it:
"Even novelizations are interpretations of the film, and while they are largely true to George Lucas’ vision (he works quite closely with the novel authors), the method in which they are written does allow for some minor differences. The novelizations are written concurrently with the film’s production, so variations in detail do creep in from time to time. Nonetheless, they should be regarded as very accurate depictions of the fictional Star Wars movies."

It goes on and on and on even after this though.

Which shows what? All that says is that the novellizations are depictions of the canon movies. Not canon itself, just very accurate interpetations of canon. You could watch the "Star Wars in 30 minutes" play and see a somewhat accurate interpetation of the films.

Basically the only thing that ther whole article says that is for the EU is that it's part of continuity. And even then they kind of says that it's just up to your own point of view how much actually is in continuity.\

I don't even have anything against the EU, and parts of it I consider in continuity. But that's just what they say.

[His Divine Shadow]

The quote your bringing up was in direct refference to them not being able to see the creation of the clone army.

And you get that this implies that this is only what has been affected how exactly?
I most certanly did not, and since this helps explain these ahem, contradictions between the movies and EU, there is no problem in choosing the most likely of the two.

Everytime they bring up how the Force has been weakened it's always in referrence to their awarness, or clarivoyance, being weakened. Add to that we never see any evidence that their physical abilities have been weakened in any way and you come to the conclusion that their awareness was the ture thing tha was weakened.

We never know what their physical capabilities are, and nowhere is it implied that is the only thing thats been affected.

I'm not misinterpeting canon. I'm saying that from the quote, which only mentions books and says nothing of radio dramas or scripts by the way, is in refferrence to a type of canon that governs the official material. The use of the term "official" supports that because the term "official" is only used in refference to the EU. It's doubtful that they would use the term "official" if they were talking about anything beyond the "Official" (EU) universe.

No, that comes from this quote as I belatedly noted:

"Gospel, or canon as we refer to it, includes the screenplays, the films, the radio dramas and the novelisations. These works spin out of George Lucas' original stories, the rest are written by other writers. However, between us, we've read everything, and much of it is taken into account in the overall continuity. The entire catalog of published works comprises a vast history -- with many off-shoots, variations and tangents -- like any other well-developed mythology."
-Star Wars Insider

Oh, but it does.

Nope.

In your quote it talks about being part of the authentic part of the official Star Wars universe.

Authentic meaning the movies, or maybe you like to confuse and over emphasize on the word official and make some nonsenscial correlation to the official materials IOW the EU?

Now, if your view on your quote is to be believed then through the use of the term of "authentic" then those books also represent a "true" vision of the Star Wars universe. Which is in direct contradiction to my quote which says the films and only the films are the real version of the Star wars universe.

No, it's not, you clearly have misread this and now you have artifically created a conflict between the sources, if we decide your interpreptation is better, you should know that this, will only ever result in failure, all sources are to be incorporated.
I mean, it would be like a scientist ignoring the fact that light travels at 300tkm/s when formulating a theory on relativity.

And nomatter how hard I try to wrangle this quote can I see how one could come up with that they contradict anything, oooh, so the movies are NUMERO UNO, the ABSOLUTE CANON, highest on the canon hierarchy! Oh and the world is round.

[Master of Ossus]

It was 45 IDSs thrown in Darksaber.

Were those ISDs shielded? Did their crews know what was happening? How far / fast were they thrown?

Those ISDs were shielded, their crews did not realize what was happening because it happened so fast, and they were thrown lightyears in mere seconds.

[Master of Ossus]

Okay, I see one source of confusion on this thread and one debate. I will attempt to ellucidate both of them.

1. The Jedi's ability to use the Force was diminished because the Dark Side was growing more powerful. The Sith were not directly behind their inability to see things through the Force, but the Sith did benefit from it, and the Sith were also able to tell that this was going on. The Sith, having an understanding of the Force, were able to sense the disparity and use it to their advantage. This had evidently been going on for a few years before AotC, but probably did not begin until after TPM.

2. The order for canon is: SE films, original films, novelisations of the films, radio plays.

After that comes official, which is used as part of canon for the purpose of this debate, except when it is directly contradicted by the films. These instances are very rare, as it is generally pretty easy to find a way to justify the EU with what is seen in canon films/novelisations/radio plays, and most authors of the EU material are actually pretty well versed in SW and understand a lot of the material.

I think it is important, though, to remember that even in the EU there are some things that have the power to override other parts of the EU. Because the farther away from the movies we go, the less canonical (not a word) something is, we can infer that there are many books that are more canonical (still not a word) than others. For instance, ICS and VD are obviously far closer to the movies than the Marvel comics. They draw their source materials directly from the movies, in most cases, and they are only a cut below the radio plays. Those sources do have the power to contradict EU material, but not anything that fits into canon.

[His Divine Shadow]

Okie, this topic I find highly aggrevating, so I'll bow out now before I madly flame someone to ashes.

Morte, if you wish to send those contradictions then, use the PM.

[Master of Ossus]

There are very few contradictions in the EU when compared to the movies. I would also like the list, Morte, if you are willing, just to see how many there actually are.

[Morte]

The list? I was merely referring to the list of rhetorical questions I made in a post on page two of this topic (and subsequent posts) which I thought illustrated that there are many inconsistencies with the material showed in the EU and the material showed in the movies. That's it, by no means do I have some kind of comprehensive list of EU-movie contradictions (though that would be very handy).

As you say, HDS, this topic has probably gotten out of hand and it doesn't seem like we're getting anywhere. From my perspective, let me just say that I am yet to see a reasonable rationalisation that, to me, is satisfactory to explain the vast dicrepancy between the Force powers in the movies and the Force powers in the EU.

[Master of Ossus]

Morte, non of that is an actual contradiction with the EU. The Jedi were overwhelmed by the droids, lacked many of their powers, and the fact that we don't see many of the powers ascribed to Dark Siders in the movies is immaterial due to canon policy. There is no contradiction there, only an addition to our knowledge.

What you are essentially saying is that anything we do not see in the films that is spoken of in the EU must be a contradiction with the movies, but that is exactly the wrong way of looking at it, with the canon statements that we have.

[Lord_Vader]

For those that dont believe Jedi can move other objects than droids or X-wings you have to remember its all relative. If I can move a car with my mind then I can move a tanker or a jumbo jet. The key problem with the Jedi when fighting all those droids on Geonosis is the huge volume of blaster shots being fired at them. It takes considerable skill to deflect blaster shots let alone many coming at you.

As for a non-Jedi defeating a Jedi...obviously anything is possible though that would be extremely hard. The Force grants a huge slew of abilities. Sense of danger, future etc..

[Master of Ossus]

Size matters not. Numbers probably do, though.

[Rathark]

It was 45 IDSs thrown in Darksaber.

Were those ISDs shielded? Did their crews know what was happening? How far / fast were they thrown?

Those ISDs were shielded, their crews did not realize what was happening because it happened so fast, and they were thrown lightyears in mere seconds.

So at maximum strain, the new generation of Jedi each have the power of one or two ISD reactors ... Or perhaps there was some sort of magnification factor involved in the mind meld, such as thousands of Grand Masters destroying a planetary surface in Julian May's Magnificat.

It is interesting that the Jedi may have had these godlike powers thousands of years before the fall of the Republic, and re-discovered them following the fall of the Empire. Thus Palpatine, Yoda and Anakin were the most powerful Force-wielders of their time, but not of all time - yet could easily have learned how to throw ISDs if that particular door of knowledge had been re-opened in their lifetimes.

I wonder if George Lucas is going to acknowledge this in Episode III ...

[Darth Yoshi]

Maybe that'll be Mace Windu's Blaze-of-Glory Death (TM). He taps into the full potential of the Force, and it costs him his life.

[His Divine Shadow]

Maybe that'll be Mace Windu's Blaze-of-Glory Death (TM). He taps into the full potential of the Force, and it costs him his life.

It cost Anakin his life, and the pushing away of the ISD's cost Dorsk 81 his life.

[Morte]

Okay. I admit that there are ways to rationalise what we see in the movies with what we see in the EU ond other official literature. I am not 'happy' with these rationalisations as they seem 'forced' (oh, what a pun), in a way. But as HDS says, our primary goal should be to find these rationalisations and I have to begrudgingly accept them.

I still think we would have all been better off had the EU stuck to what seems to be George Lucas's original vision, but now that it hasn't I suppose that I have to accept that.

I still think, however, that the primary benefit the Force provides the Jedi is through the Jedi's ability to 'see' through the Force, rather than any ability to directly manipulate the physical environment.

[Morte]

BTW, HDS, how on Earth did you manage to make 700 posts in the space of one month?

[His Divine Shadow]

BTW, HDS, how on Earth did you manage to make 700 posts in the space of one month?

Cause I'm a sys-admin, I sit infront of computers all day, and got free time now and then to post a load of messages.

But rather, look at Mister Beans post count instead...

Ofcourse my post count at Sb.com between Nov. 2000 and Jan. 2002 was around 2500, since january it's risen to 8600+ posts

[His Divine Shadow]

I still think, however, that the primary benefit the Force provides the Jedi is through the Jedi's ability to 'see' through the Force, rather than any ability to directly manipulate the physical environment.

Thats one way of using the force, it's the path chosen by Yoda.
But as you can see, Anakin had no trouble manipulating physical objects in AOTC, yet he did not utilize that to his fullest extent either.
It's different to sit around and camly do something as opposed to the heat of combat, thats what marks a Jedi too, how much does he dare trust the force and his instincts.

[Morte]

Okay, I'm feeling stupid now... what's SB.com?

[His Divine Shadow]

Okay, I'm feeling stupid now... what's SB.com?

Spacebattles
http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums

[Morte]

Thanks... hadn't heard of it before.

[Ender]

It was 45 IDSs thrown in Darksaber

45!!! This is just becoming ridiculous.

It's KJA. What did you expect?

Vader's loss of power is quite easily explained by the fact that he was now only 1/4 as powerful as he was as a youth.

By power do you mean combat ability? I can understand that he would lost a lot of combat ability but the state of his body shouldn't make much difference to his ability to manipulate the Force.

Less body = less midichlorians = less of a Force connection. See my Wire comparrison.

There were 200 Jedi and thousands of droids. Quantity is it's own form of quality people. It is no great suprise they failed.

Exactly. I say it time and again, it seems that Jedi aren't particularly powerful in combat. They are special because of their ability to forsee the future and such.

If you don't see that as an insane advantage, I'm forced to conclude you never got into many fights.

The quantum singularities created by the Vong are mini black holes. It doesn't seem to fit what we know, but that is what they are. Deal with it.

This is another issue, but, "deal with it"? I thought the point of forums like this was to not just "deal with it" but come up with rational answers to questions. The fact is that whatever dovin basals create cannot be black holes. They're something else and 'black hole' is just a convenient way of describing it.

Deal with it is probably a poor way to put it. But I am getting absoultly sick of agruing with DarkStar and his ilk that just because a particular aspect doesn't match what you expect the whole idea isn't invalidated.

It is said they are QS. They act as QSs should, except they are limited and don't act as strong as we predict. Now, should we go back and forth about a MUM, or simply assume that they are infact QS's, but the DB has enough control to keep it from doing what we expect?

In response to the topic of the strength of the Force, it is very simple: There is no limit. The Force is all power. The limiting factor is the person wielding the Force

This I can accept. But, like I said above, movie evidence seems to show that there is a limit to how far a person can wield the Force.[/quote]

[His Divine Shadow]

I don't see what does not fit about the Dovin Basal's black holes?
They are just really really small and therefore do not have a wide radius that they can affect, making them quite a local phenomena.

[His Divine Shadow]

This I can accept. But, like I said above, movie evidence seems to show that there is a limit to how far a person can wield the Force.

Well, I don't think it's that simple, there are say, different ways of using the force, the key factor really is ones understanding of the force.
Another one could be to be really really big and therefore have alot of midichlorians, like Lord Nyax who was stupidly powerfull.