Some idiots never learn

[Darth Servo]

Measuring using the models seem on screen is the most naive way to measure lengths I've ever heard of. You can't tell just from there because you will never know if the Star Destroyer might be miles and miles away.
If you wish to measure it, you have to get a model from ILM, since someone claimed they made it to size.
If the length on the official site was wrong, why was it up there in the first place? By agreed upon, read Behind the Scenes. That's the length argreed upon, regardless of the films' Star Destroyers' length. And since no length was ever mentioned in the film, all we're doing is GUESSING. And once another source, especially an official source, state the length, that length is to be taken as real.
And the calculations by the person on the website mentioned somewhere along the thread is still his calculation. But it seems like he did get to have a model to measure...

*Knock, knock.*

Hello, hello, anybody home? I already posted this pic that proves how full of shit you are.

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/cards/wide/fleet.jpg

A mile long ISD is in front of the Executor and the SSD is clearly AT LEAST 10X as long as the ISD.

If the official website said the Executor was two feet, would you argue that figure even though its clearly wrong (just as wrong as the 12 km figure)?

[phongn]

On that note, the RPG books present yet another flaw--they have the sensor globes on the Executor's bridge tower being towards the rear of the tower, not the front like the films clearly show. Why they persist in their moronic misinformation is baffling.

They also get the number of engines wrong, and while they scaled down the size of the Executor they kept the conning tower the same size! The ship in the RPG only superficially resembles the one in the movie, and it is astonishing how they could have done that.

For that matter, most people get the Corellian Corvette model wrong - the section between the area holding the communications dishes and the rear engine compartment tends to be deleted for some odd reason.

[phongn]

Excuse me, but:
"The size of a Super Star Destroyer has vacillated in numerous publications, starting with an eight-kilometer length in 1984's A Guide to the Star Wars Universe. The latest measurements peg the craft at about 12,800 meters."
So officially the previous official lenght was wrong. Why was it changed? Because fans said it contradicted the visuals (based on measurement methods you labelled as naive). Starwars.com does not say that it is correct or even final (only the diplomatic "latest" which can be override at any time). As you can see official can change extremely at any time.
The fan fiction is on a lower level than official. However when official contradicts fan-fiction based only on the visualization and well known physical (optical in this case) laws, most of us use the figure closer to the visualization, especially when it is supported by the modellers who actually did what we saw.

I have no idea what you're trying to say.

[Death from the Sea]

you are all wrong the Super Star Destroyer in ESB and RotJ is
282 cm long. YES I said centimeters! or at least that was the size of the model used

[phongn]

you are all wrong the Super Star Destroyer in ESB and RotJ is
282 cm long. YES I said centimeters! or at least that was the size of the model used

Yes, but they're scale models of 1/6200

[vakundok]

I have no idea what you're trying to say.

Sorry, I tried to say that we use the 11 ISD lenght because it is closer to the visuals than the official 8, and even starwars.com is far away from being infallible.

[Slartibartfast]

Measuring using the models seem on screen is the most naive way to measure lengths I've ever heard of. You can't tell just from there because you will never know if the Star Destroyer might be miles and miles away.

This: http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/cards/wide/fleet.jpg disagrees with you. We can see that the CLOSEST Star Destroyer is clearly IN FRONT of the Executor, and it is at least 10 times the size of the Executor, which is FARTHER AWAY. If anything, perspective is cheating us the OTHER WAY AROUND, so the Executor would be BIGGER than 10 ISDs, not SMALLER. The size of the ISD has been established at 1 mile (or 1.6 km), so even if they were at the same distance, the Executor would be at least 16 km! But it isn't! So it's LARGER! Pay special attention to the words that are ALL IN CAPS!

If the length on the official site was wrong, why was it up there in the first place? By agreed upon, read Behind the Scenes. That's the length argreed upon, regardless of the films' Star Destroyers' length. And since no length was ever mentioned in the film, all we're doing is GUESSING. And once another source, especially an official source, state the length, that length is to be taken as real.

Can't you see that if you COPY and PASTE the image of the ISD that is in FRONT of the Executor, you get at least 10 or 11 times its SIZE?! How is that GUESSING?! WTF is WRONG with YOU??? Are you BLIND?

[Ender]

On the 12.8 km height, if you look at other entries IE the one for dreadnaught for sure, it says length. So it is a webpage error. It still does not make the length correct though.

And 12.8 wasn't chosen just because it is mid way, it is also what you get if you go my 8 miles instead of 8 KM.

[Slartibartfast]

So they're trying to mask a "we fucked up big time" with a "we were right, but we kinda mixed the units of measure?"

[Cal Wright]

This is absolutely asinine okay. I'm going to set you fucking straight before the other denizens rip you apart like rabid doggs.

Measuring using the models seem on screen is the most naive way to measure lengths I've ever heard of. You can't tell just from there because you will never know if the Star Destroyer might be miles and miles away.

That doesn't change jack shit and you know it. They have a concrete, CONCRETE way of scaling. The fucking bridge towers. They are the EXACT same.

If you wish to measure it, you have to get a model from ILM, since someone claimed they made it to size.

Let's get a model. Oh wait, this has been done before hasn't it?

If the length on the official site was wrong, why was it up there in the first place?

According to the OFFICIAL site Vader disappeared upon death. Did you see his wrinkled ass vanish? It was up there.

By agreed upon, read Behind the Scenes. That's the length argreed upon, regardless of the films' Star Destroyers' length.

No, it's agreed upon by the official assholes and the rabid EU fans. The ones that want to look like they know everything. Even when it's in front of thier god damned faces.

And since no length was ever mentioned in the film, all we're doing is GUESSING.

Star Wars Trilogy Paperback Empire Strikes Back p 214

'The Avenger, one of the Imperial armada's wedgelike Star Destroyers, hovered like a mechanized death angel in the sea of stars outside the Hoth system. As the colossal ship began to move closer to the ice world, the planet became clearly visible through the windows which stretched 100 meters or more across the huge bridge of the warship.'

That's just a start. I'm reading through the novelisations to find other references. However, we have a good start. Now if you can debunk a way of using this, go right ahead. My charcoal does no discriminate.

And once another source, especially an official source, state the length, that length is to be taken as real.

Oh no, we thought it was gone, but it has returned!!! Run for the hills folks, this statement is...


BULL-FUCKING-SHIT

THE MOVIES, AND ONLY THE MOVIES ARE THE HIGHEST FUCKING ORDER OF GOD DAMNED CANON.

It matters not what Officials say. The Movies override any of that shit. You can debate, debunk and berate until your blue in the face. You can huff, and puff, but you aint' blowin nuttin but hot air. Get some.

And the calculations by the person on the website mentioned somewhere along the thread is still his calculation. But it seems like he did get to have a model to measure...

Emperor D. C. Palpatine

Oh I'm sure he did. I'm sure he's the fucking ILM'er who oversees everything. Hey, what does OFFICIAL say about the size of the Death Stars. According to ILM modelers it was built to scale so it would be 500 miles on screen. Round 2.

[vakundok]

Quite diplomatic solution. Maybe this masking is the only reason of the new official lenght, rather than any real measurement.
Slartibartfast: Excuse me, but I have to disagree you. This picture shows nothing. The ISD can be anywhere under the hangar bay, even farther than the center line of the Executor. It would be a better shot, when the Tyderium aproaches the Executor and the closer ISD IS closer than the Executor. I think.

[Darth Wong]

Quite diplomatic solution. Maybe this masking is the only reason of the new official lenght, rather than any real measurement.
Slartibartfast: Excuse me, but I have to disagree you. This picture shows nothing. The ISD can be anywhere under the hangar bay, even farther than the center line of the Executor.

Who cares if it's beneath the far side of the ship? It's still between the camera and the ship, therefore it is closer. The angle from the camera to the Executor is from underneath; it doesn't matter whether it's lined up with the ship's centreline in its own horizontal axis; it only matters whether it's in front of the ship from the perspective of the camera, and it must be.

[Slartibartfast]

Quite diplomatic solution. Maybe this masking is the only reason of the new official lenght, rather than any real measurement.
Slartibartfast: Excuse me, but I have to disagree you. This picture shows nothing. The ISD can be anywhere under the hangar bay, even farther than the center line of the Executor. It would be a better shot, when the Tyderium aproaches the Executor and the closer ISD IS closer than the Executor. I think.

It's irrelevant if you disagree. Get this, it's fucking awesome reasoning: the ISD is CLOSER to the camera than the Executor, therefore it can't be FARTHER AWAY. It obscures our view, therefore it's closer. It means that nobody can say "the ship looks that small because it's very far away, it's actually the same size as the other ship or only half or so and so bullshit" - guess what, perspective doesn't work that way - something farther away CANNOT BE IN FRONT of something closer.

Damn, I'm such a fucking genius, right?

[Baron Scarpia]

Unbelievable. One should ask these people to hold their hands in front of their face and try to place their left hand in front of their right hand while still having the left be further away from them than the right and see how well that works.

Then, once they've realized how perspective actually works, one should use their own hands to smack them across the face for being such dumbasses.

[vakundok]

The ISD is closer than the farther side of the hangar bay of the Executor. It does not mean that the ISD is necceserly closer than the Executor.

Unbelievable. One should ask these people to hold their hands in front of their face and try to place their left hand in front of their right hand while still having the left be further away from them than the right and see how well that works.

Unbelievable? Do you seriously think it is impossible?
Side view (sorry for the "o"s but it cuts opening spaces):
oooooo/ Left hand
ooooo/
oooo/
ooo/o/ Left hand is in front of the right
oooo/
ooo/
oo/
o/
/ Right hand

See? Left hand is in front of the right but still farther than the right.

[Slartibartfast]

The ISD is closer than the farther side of the hangar bay of the Executor. It does not mean that the ISD is necceserly closer than the Executor.

Wrong. The ISD's bridge is AT LEAST closer than the middle line of the Executor (unless you want to argue that they're touching each other... but I believe this isn't a static shot, possibly the ISD moves and covers another part of the Executor, can't remember.

So, if we draw a line from the front "point" to the back (we're actually missing a little chunk of the Exec's nose in this shot) and copy&paste the ISD several times along this line, we get ELEVEN Destroyers. And this is a GENEROUS calc, since they would literally have to touch the SSD!



Note that the Original, Untouched ISD is under a light green halo. Note the bridge (which also is in the MIDDLE of the ISD) aligns almost perfectly with the centerline of the Exec, which is also in the MIDDLE. Note that the angles are very similar. Note that I've put the ISDs slightly overlaid, to account for perspective (I don't want to align the center of the nose with the FARTHEST corner of the backside, because that would give the ISD an unfair, unrealistic BIGGER size. And anyway the Exec is missing a huge nose chunk in the pic, at least 1 or 2 more ISDs could fit there)

[Slartibartfast]

Also note that the 8-mile figure would need EIGHT star destroyers, which is a big-ass chunk of uncovered space that would be quite difficult to fill, even with claims that the perspective is all wrong. You would need to say something like that "the ISD is 50 or 100 meters farther away and therefore looks HALF the size", which is plain ridiculous for a MILE-long ship.

[vakundok]

Wrong. The ISD's bridge is AT LEAST closer than the middle line of the Executor (unless you want to argue that they're touching each other... but I believe this isn't a static shot, possibly the ISD moves and covers another part of the Executor, can't remember.

We are back to the starting point. You say that the ISD must be closer than the center line of the Executor. I say it canot be decided from this shot, the ISD can be under the bay (partially within the bay) and farther than the center line of the Executor.
My problem is that that your red line is not on the surface of the Executor. It is on a hole, and the ISD can be within this hole. While I prefer the longer figure for the Executor I still say that it is not the best shot to show it.

[Emperor Palpatine]

Stupid fucknut, we know that an ISD is 1.6km long from inside sources,
in ILM who made the models, and from every official source, so it's a
canon yardstick to use to measure the Executor, so shut the fuck up
you retarded fucknut.

Fool, fool... listen. You know the length of the ISD, ok. But how in the world do you measure the length. You don't have an actual Star Destroyer model and SSD model at hand, and you're already talking about that length being absolutely correct. How naive. How naive indeed. You should check your mouth, and not have vulgarities spitting out from it every second of your life.

Hello, hello, anybody home? I already posted this pic that proves how full of shit you are.

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/cards/wide/fleet.jpg

A mile long ISD is in front of the Executor and the SSD is clearly AT LEAST 10X as long as the ISD.

If the official website said the Executor was two feet, would you argue that figure even though its clearly wrong (just as wrong as the 12 km figure)?

Tell me, what can that picture prove? Are the ISDs at the appropriate positions to make an accurate measurement of the Star Destroyer? Unless you can very clearly prove that is is at the 'right position', you can't straight away say.

Oh, but did the official site say 2 feet? No. They'e provided a length that is believable. And what do you mean by the 'just as wrong as the 12KM is? If it was wrong, I'm am very sure it would've been changed by now. Anybody tried telling these people before?

If you like to ask these kind of questions, let me ask you. If I use a close up image of an ISD, which might be 2 times the length seen from the distance where I can accurately determine the SSD's length, would I say that 5 Star Destroyers is equal to one SSD? NO! Same here. You can't say that is the distance to most accurately measure a SSD!

This: http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/cards/wide/fleet.jpg disagrees with you. We can see that the CLOSEST Star Destroyer is clearly IN FRONT of the Executor, and it is at least 10 times the size of the Executor, which is FARTHER AWAY. If anything, perspective is cheating us the OTHER WAY AROUND, so the Executor would be BIGGER than 10 ISDs, not SMALLER. The size of the ISD has been established at 1 mile (or 1.6 km), so even if they were at the same distance, the Executor would be at least 16 km! But it isn't! So it's LARGER! Pay special attention to the words that are ALL IN CAPS!

Oh, yes... yes... finally someone's making some sense here. This is true. I was always under the impression the the ISDs were either under or behind the SSD.

The thing is, why is it that no one bothered enquiring the people who made the sites before? And instead, they start criticising them and scolding them, etc.

Emperor D. C. Palpatine

[vakundok]

Let's see some numbers:
Starwars.com says that the lenght of the model was 282 cm. It means that it was between 281.5 and 282.5.
The 12800 m lenght figure would require the modelling ratio between 1:4530 and 1:4547.
The 17600 m lenght figure would require the modelling ratio between 1: 6230 and 1:6252.
I do not think modellers ever prefered ratios like 1:4530 or 1:6230. The ratio must be something like 1:4200 or 1:4800, so both of these figures are incorrect in my opinion.
It is said that they used 1:6200. It means that the lenght is between 17453 and 17515m. I think the 17500m figure is the most credible.

[Emperor Palpatine]

That doesn't change jack shit and you know it. They have a concrete, CONCRETE way of scaling. The fucking bridge towers. They are the EXACT same.

I don't get what you mean. I know they have a concrete way of scaling. But the ones we see on film, are the ISDs lined up perfectly to allow us to measure the length of the SSD?
Oh, 'same' is 'same'. There is no need for the word 'exact'.

According to the OFFICIAL site Vader disappeared upon death. Did you see his wrinkled ass vanish? It was up there.

Then he did disappear.. It is just not seen on film. If it is not seen on film, the official site has the final say.

No, it's agreed upon by the official assholes and the rabid EU fans. The ones that want to look like they know everything. Even when it's in front of thier god damned faces.

Let me ask you this: Why would the officials not ask the people from ILM before determining the length? Read the Behind the Scenes part again. It said "The latest measurement peg the craft...." Note I've emphasised on 'measurement'? And read the line following it. It mentions the length of the model version of the SSD. Unless my reading skills are failing, the line is to explain where they got the 'measurement' from.

THE MOVIES, AND ONLY THE MOVIES ARE THE HIGHEST FUCKING ORDER OF GOD DAMNED CANON.

I am aware of this, thank you. Oh, and watch your throat. All that shouting will not do you any good.
I knew someone would point this thing out from my sentences. What I intended to say was, the movies never gave the length, and so, whatever source below the canon hierarchy that states the length should be taken as real. Basing the length on the models shown in the movie (and not the actual models themselves.) is not a reliable method.

Oh I'm sure he did. I'm sure he's the fucking ILM'er who oversees everything. Hey, what does OFFICIAL say about the size of the Death Stars. According to ILM modelers it was built to scale so it would be 500 miles on screen. Round 2.

Where did you get the quote from? Might be outdated. The site already said 160KM, I don't think ILM employees will try to say something different. But I don't think they care, actually.
Oh, the second death star model was 137cm in diameter, as mentioned in Behind the Scenes. I think the length they got on the site was determined by the scale they make the Death Star, and not just speculation.

Emperor D.C. Palpatine

[vakundok]

Emperor Palpatine:
I recommend this:
http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/chron/encounter.jpg
This image is on Saxton's page.
The Executor and the ISDs are in formation, so most likely they are aligned correctly. The closer ISD covers the closest surface of the Executor, so it is closer. So it means that a lenght ratio will give us a lower limit of the size of the Executor. The lenght of the Executor is more than ten times the lenght of the closer ISD. It clearly contradicts the 12800m lenght figure.

Too big- edited- Vympel

[Darth Servo]

Tell me, what can that picture prove?

Idiot. It proves that at least ELEVEN mile-long ISDs (seen IN FRONT of the Executor) can be placed bow to stern across the length of the Executor. You're just being an asshole now.

Are the ISDs at the appropriate positions to make an accurate measurement of the Star Destroyer?

The ISD is in FRONT of the Executor. Don't you get it yet? Therefore, the 11X length is a MINIMUM. If the ISD was the exact same distance from the camera, it would appear SMALLER since the Executor is BEHIND the ISD and therefore further away. Are you really so stupid that you can't understand this?

Unless you can very clearly prove that is is at the 'right position', you can't straight away say.

And what would this "right position" be? We know the Executor is AT LEAST 11X as long as the ISD and the ISD appears LARGER than it would be if it were the same distance from the camera as the Executor.

Oh, but did the official site say 2 feet? No.

Don't evede the question. If the official site did say two feet, I'd bet you would argue that length just as stupidly.

They'e provided a length that is believable.

12 KM is NOT believable unless you are completely blind. Its almost ONE THIRD the actual length seen in the films dumbass.

And what do you mean by the 'just as wrong as the 12KM is?

In the films, the Executor is CLEARLY greater than 17 km long. Therefore, the 12KM figure is WRONG. Are you really this dense?

If it was wrong, I'm am very sure it would've been changed by now. Anybody tried telling these people before?

People HAVE emailed the SW people before. Thats how the old (and totally incorrect) 5 km figure got eliminated. But the people writing the SW page didn't want to upset the people too much who made the 5 km blunder in the first place, so they SPLIT THE DIFFERENCE between that wrong figure and the correct one from the films. Its called a COMPROMISE, even though the resulting 12 km 'official' figure is CLEARLY refuted by the CANON films.

I was always under the impression the the ISDs were either under or behind the SSD.

Now I know you're a complete idiot. The ISD BLOCKS OUR VIEW of part of the Executor. Therefore it MUST be IN FRONT OF IT.

What a retard.

The thing is, why is it that no one bothered enquiring the people who made the sites before? And instead, they start criticising them and scolding them, etc.

We "scold and criticise" anyone who refuses to admit they're wrong even after everyone on the board has proven that they're full of shit, which is precisely what you're doing now.

[SPOOFE]

Are the ISDs at the appropriate positions to make an accurate measurement of the Star Destroyer? Unless you can very clearly prove that is is at the 'right position', you can't straight away say.

Yes, they are.

The longer line is at an angle of 102.8°. The shorter line is at an angle of 102.4°, for a difference of .4° in terms of orientation. This results in a statistically negligible angle of orientation for the two ships. Ergo, the two ships do appear to be of the proper lengths relative to each other.

To make it quite clear... a .4° difference in orientation would not explain the many hundreds of meters of differential in apparent length that you would have us accept.

NOTE: Upon further review, a .4° differential would also be explained away by a hasty line drawing. Looking at it again, it looks like the further end of the longer line is a tad too low. But the point remains the same... the perspective of the two vessels proves, conclusively, that the two ships are lined up properly

[Slartibartfast]

This: http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/cards/wide/fleet.jpg disagrees with you. We can see that the CLOSEST Star Destroyer is clearly IN FRONT of the Executor, and it is at least 10 times the size of the Executor, which is FARTHER AWAY. If anything, perspective is cheating us the OTHER WAY AROUND, so the Executor would be BIGGER than 10 ISDs, not SMALLER. The size of the ISD has been established at 1 mile (or 1.6 km), so even if they were at the same distance, the Executor would be at least 16 km! But it isn't! So it's LARGER! Pay special attention to the words that are ALL IN CAPS!

Oh, yes... yes... finally someone's making some sense here. This is true. I was always under the impression the the ISDs were either under or behind the SSD.

The thing is, why is it that no one bothered enquiring the people who made the sites before? And instead, they start criticising them and scolding them, etc.

Emperor D. C. Palpatine

Ok, let me change my argument:
This fucking image: http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/cards/wide/fleet.jpg fuckingly disagrees with you, fucknut. We can see that the darndest CLOSEST Star Destroyer is fucking-clearly IN FRONT of the damn Executor, and it is at least 10 times the size of the Executor for shit's sake, which is FARTHER AWAY, fuckity fuckity fuck. If anything, the shitty-ass perspective is fucking cheating us the OTHER fucking WAY AROUND, so the Executor would be fucking BIGGER than 10 fucking ISDs, not SMALLER like a small cock. The size of the fuckingly fucking ISD has been established at 1 mile (or 1.6 km), so even if they were at the same damn stupid fucking distance, the Executor would be at least fucking 16 km! But it isn't! So it's fucking LARGER! Pay special attention to the words that are ALL IN CAPS shit shit shit!

Probably you'll say that now it's not valid because it's so rude