Mace Windu vs Darth Maul

Lord_Xerxes · Post by **Lord_Xerxes** » 2003-04-13 05:49am

ANGELUS wrote:Well, Obi Wan defeated Darth Maul, and then ho got into a fight with Jango Fett, and I mean a real fight, trading blows and all. Obi would have won if it wasn't because they both fell from the platform (well, this is just my guess, there is no evidence that it would have happened that way, but it looked that way). Then Mace killed Jango too easily. So my guess is that if we use fighting Jango as a reference it means that Mace is better than Maul.

I give this one to Mace.

Leap in logic.

Both fights are entirely different, with different situations and variables. Furthermore Mace does not equal Obi-Wan, and vice versa. They are two different people. You can't say Mace will beat Maul because Obi-Wan beat Maul and Jango and Mace beat Jango, so Mace has to be as good as Obi-Wan. That's just assinine. It's like saying one football team will beat another because they beat another team which is said to be better than that second team. There are far more variables invovled. Battle conditions (IE Weather, terrain, surroundings, interference by other people-Maul vs Obi-Wan is a one on one, Jango vs Obi-wan is a one on one (for the most part), Mace vs Jango is not a one on one (Reek, plus countless other battle droids and Jedi were involved in a Mass battle...there could be crossfire, etc.)

Obi-Wan barely defeated Maul. And if you take into consideration Poe's recent post regarding that battle-ending, it has something to do with a mis-position. For the rest of the fight, Obi-Wan got his ass handed to him. He was far sloppy until he touched upon the darkside. And Maul fought both Qui and Obi at the same time. A two on one for the most part, where he did manage to kill one. This was not just a straight foward one-on-one fight from the get go. You can't predetermine the outcome of Mace vs Maul based off it.

Mace Windu is a far superior fighter than Obi-Wan is. He is also of a higher level of training. They are two seperate people. Furthermore, Obi-Wan has recieved more training, excelled in his own level since his fight with Maul...he's not the same person he was when he fought Maul as when he fights Jango. And there have been several sources that state that Obi-Wan changed his lightsaber form to a blaster-blocking intensive 3 after Qui's death.

No comparison like this is logical.

seanrobertson · Post by **seanrobertson** » 2003-04-14 12:18pm

Eleas wrote: I think the problem is that most people look and see Samuel Jackson, and figure that since he's not the main character of EPII, his character is a wimp.

That's entirely possible. (Others would take the opposite/appeal to ignorance approach: "we didn't see much of him, so he must be tough." I haven't seen anyone in this thread say anything of the sort, however.)

He seemed pretty bad-ass to me, though I honestly didn't see enough to try and compare him to Maul.

Irrelevant. His fighting skills are frequently referred to to be "second only to Yoda" or even "superior to Yoda".

That's true.

I know Anakin, at least, said something to the effect of, "Master Kenobi is wise like Master Yoda, and as powerful [or as skilled with a lightsaber] as Master Windu." (? It was close to that.)

But I think some of those exclamations might be rooted in young Vader's ignorance. Even Dooku, who'd been around much longer than Anakin, seemed somewhat surprised that Yoda was such a great swordsman. You'd think, after all, Dooku wouldn't challenge Yoda to a lightsaber duel if he knew Yoda'd soundly whip his ass...the Count felt he'd fare better with the "blade" than by comparing "knowledge of the Force" with the little green troll.

Death from the Sea · Post by **Death from the Sea** » 2003-04-14 02:41pm

Does the fact that Mace Windu's light saber is purple and not green or blue denote something? Perhaps that he is on another level Jedi wise???

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2003-04-14 02:45pm

Death from the Sea wrote:Does the fact that Mace Windu's light saber is purple and not green or blue denote something? Perhaps that he is on another level Jedi wise???

I reckon it's a joke about "Samuel L Jackson's Purple Lightsabre". Nothing more.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-04-14 02:49pm

Rye wrote:
Death from the Sea wrote:Does the fact that Mace Windu's light saber is purple and not green or blue denote something? Perhaps that he is on another level Jedi wise???
I reckon it's a joke about "Samuel L Jackson's Purple Lightsabre". Nothing more.

He just wanted his to honestly be unique...or so the story goes.

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2003-04-14 02:50pm

Rye wrote:
Death from the Sea wrote:Does the fact that Mace Windu's light saber is purple and not green or blue denote something? Perhaps that he is on another level Jedi wise???
I reckon it's a joke about "Samuel L Jackson's Purple Lightsabre". Nothing more.

Acutally Jackson has a thing for purple. His character Mr. Glass in Unbreakable wore purple alot.

In the case of AOC Jackson wanted to stand out a little more from the mass of Jedi so they were kind enough to give his character a purple light saber.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-04-14 02:52pm

Red+blue = purple. Maybe it means he's a bit more badass than a regular Jedi.

Boba Fett · Post by **Boba Fett** » 2003-04-15 04:21am

seanrobertson wrote: Even Dooku, who'd been around much longer than Anakin, seemed somewhat surprised that Yoda was such a great swordsman. You'd think, after all, Dooku wouldn't challenge Yoda to a lightsaber duel if he knew Yoda'd soundly whip his ass...the Count felt he'd fare better with the "blade" than by comparing "knowledge of the Force" with the little green troll.

I don't think he was so surprised. There were no injuries. So I say Dooku held quite good against the little bastard. Of course Yoda was better but not that much. Add to that that he fought two Jedis already.

The bigger problem was that Dooku knew he don't have much time left.
Yes it would have been a good opportunity to cut down the head of the Jedi Council but he failed.
At the end of the fight he knew he has to leave since reinforcement could arrive in any second.
Anyway his main goal was to make sure the Clone War is started. He did it.
He must got back to Palpy with the good news.

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2003-04-16 07:40pm

seanrobertson wrote: I know Anakin, at least, said something to the effect of, "Master Kenobi is wise like Master Yoda, and as powerful [or as skilled with a lightsaber] as Master Windu." (? It was close to that.)

I think you got it right.

seanrobertson wrote:But I think some of those exclamations might be rooted in young Vader's ignorance. Even Dooku, who'd been around much longer than Anakin, seemed somewhat surprised that Yoda was such a great swordsman. You'd think, after all, Dooku wouldn't challenge Yoda to a lightsaber duel if he knew Yoda'd soundly whip his ass...the Count felt he'd fare better with the "blade" than by comparing "knowledge of the Force" with the little green troll.

"Fought well, you have, my young padawan."

I dunno, but it strikes me a possible that Yoda actually took Dooku as a padawan learner way back then. If so, I think Dooku would know about Yoda's prowess, but he might have thought Yoda's speed would be slowed by age.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-04-16 07:51pm

Dooku was Yoda's Padawan Learner.

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2003-04-16 08:24pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Dooku was Yoda's Padawan Learner.

I know. I just meant to differentiate him from one of the (probably millions) of younglings trained by Yoda. They, after all, were technically "his" padawans, too.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-04-16 08:27pm

I know--he was Yoda's personal padawan too. That's official.

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2003-04-16 08:31pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:I know--he was Yoda's personal padawan too. That's official.

Ah, cool. Thanks.

Death from the Sea · Post by **Death from the Sea** » 2003-04-17 05:27pm

neoolong wrote:Red+blue = purple. Maybe it means he's a bit more badass than a regular Jedi.

Thank you!!! that is exactly what I was driving at!

or at the very least trying to see if anyone would say red+blue=purple

Lord_Xerxes · Post by **Lord_Xerxes** » 2003-04-21 12:59am

Boba Fett wrote:
seanrobertson wrote: Even Dooku, who'd been around much longer than Anakin, seemed somewhat surprised that Yoda was such a great swordsman. You'd think, after all, Dooku wouldn't challenge Yoda to a lightsaber duel if he knew Yoda'd soundly whip his ass...the Count felt he'd fare better with the "blade" than by comparing "knowledge of the Force" with the little green troll.
I don't think he was so surprised. There were no injuries. So I say Dooku held quite good against the little bastard. Of course Yoda was better but not that much. Add to that that he fought two Jedis already.

The bigger problem was that Dooku knew he don't have much time left.
Yes it would have been a good opportunity to cut down the head of the Jedi Council but he failed.
At the end of the fight he knew he has to leave since reinforcement could arrive in any second.
Anyway his main goal was to make sure the Clone War is started. He did it.
He must got back to Palpy with the good news.

Thank you. Finally someone else agrees with me on the Yoda-Dooku fight.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-04-21 03:15pm

Yup--the fight was a total victory for Dooku.

His objectives were:

1. Provoke war.

2. Retrieve DS plans and return to Palpy.

3. Tease Jedi.

Complete success.

Lord_Xerxes · Post by **Lord_Xerxes** » 2003-04-22 01:35am

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Yup--the fight was a total victory for Dooku.

His objectives were:

1. Provoke war.

2. Retrieve DS plans and return to Palpy.

3. Tease Jedi.

Complete success.

Wow, two people. I was under the assumption that this idea wasn't too popular, and most people see it as a total win for Yoda.

DocMoriartty · Post by **DocMoriartty** » 2003-04-22 12:16pm

I always felt that Dooku was surprised. Yoda was quite old and Dooku was flush with his victory over Anakin and Obi-Wan.

Furthermore Dooku had grown in the force since he had joined the Dark Side. I am sure he felt quite confident that his growth in the Force via the Dark Side would allow him to defeat his old master.

Also I would like to point out that if you read the novel Anakin did much better than Obi-Wan did against Dooku. He used the force to box in Dooku and had hi on the ropes for several minutes. Obi-Wan watches the fight with amazement and the only thing that saves Dooku is that Anakin is using a ver tiring fighting style. Once he starts to tire and slow down a bit Dooku went on the offensive and defeated him.

As for Mace Windu, I would say he would defeat Maul but fall short against Dooku. Dooku did what few Jedi did, he focused on a technique that excels against other sword fighters. He was a fencer pure and simple while most other Jedi were swordfighters. They trained to use their blades against all sorts of defences. I would guess that minus his Force Lightning Dooku would have done more poorly than Obi-Wan did if he was on the receiving end of Jango's twin pistol barrage.

Boba Fett · Post by **Boba Fett** » 2003-04-23 05:42am

DocMoriartty wrote:Also I would like to point out that if you read the novel Anakin did much better than Obi-Wan did against Dooku. He used the force to box in Dooku and had hi on the ropes for several minutes. Obi-Wan watches the fight with amazement and the only thing that saves Dooku is that Anakin is using a ver tiring fighting style. Once he starts to tire and slow down a bit Dooku went on the offensive and defeated him.

Anakin did much better against Dooku than Obi-wan...agreed.

The only thing that saved Dooku is that Anakin became tired...stupid idea.

Duelling with sword isn't only about strength and dexterity. A big deal of tactic is needed as well.
Watch the movie, Dooku wasn't in real danger when he fought Anakin.
He parried each attack and when the boy made a mistake he took the advantage of the situation.
First he took out one of Anakin's saber then he cut down his arm along with the other saber.

It wasn't about being tired it was about the lack of experience.

DocMoriartty · Post by **DocMoriartty** » 2003-04-23 08:43am

Boba Fett wrote:
DocMoriartty wrote:Also I would like to point out that if you read the novel Anakin did much better than Obi-Wan did against Dooku. He used the force to box in Dooku and had hi on the ropes for several minutes. Obi-Wan watches the fight with amazement and the only thing that saves Dooku is that Anakin is using a ver tiring fighting style. Once he starts to tire and slow down a bit Dooku went on the offensive and defeated him.
Anakin did much better against Dooku than Obi-wan...agreed.

The only thing that saved Dooku is that Anakin became tired...stupid idea.

Duelling with sword isn't only about strength and dexterity. A big deal of tactic is needed as well.
Watch the movie, Dooku wasn't in real danger when he fought Anakin.
He parried each attack and when the boy made a mistake he took the advantage of the situation.
First he took out one of Anakin's saber then he cut down his arm along with the other saber.

It wasn't about being tired it was about the lack of experience.

I prefered the book version of the duels actually. They explain things on many levels that the movie cannot. Anakin got tired because he was doing things on two levels to try and offset Dooku's superior skill. He was using two lightsabers and he was using the force to box in Dooku. Anakin though I get the impression had never before fought anyone who could oppose him for so long. He had no endurance. So eventually doing both the physical duel as well as the force portion tired him out.

Also remember that Dooku had been sitting on his ass for the last few hours while Anakin had just fought his way out of an arena.

Finally it may not matter too much but neither of the lightsabers that Anakin was using were his own. Dooku on the other hand was using his personal blade which he had customized to fit his style. In a duel between highly skilled opponents this would matter.