Thirdfain wrote:Perhaps the Trade Federation needed that many warships, because they knew that their individual TF Battleships were badly designed, and needed huge numbers to provide the same amout of defence a much smaller number of dedicated warships could provide. How do you know that every TF battleship was armed, or loaded with troops? Most of them could have been unarmed transports, carrying supplies- or even unconverted decoys, acting to give the appearance of strength?
When in doubt, manufacture excuses and myriads of possibilities. I'm not going to disprove each of these concepts. The ICS is quite clear: the blockade was composed of the Trade Federation's warfleet of converted heavy freighters into light carriers. But of course, I'm sure you believe the schematics and such shown in the ICS are only for those two or three real warships, eh?
The Naboo had only a paltry defense ability of speeders and light fighters with pitiful range, and even more pitiful weapons that were designed firstly (the fighters, not the weapons) as pretty parade ships.
Point is quite simple: the Trade Federation deployed easily ten-thousand light carriers no more than ten miles spaced from one another, and it was considered a mere blockade; done simply for political purposes against a planet which had no real military. No matter how much spin you turn, this is the simple facts.
But wait--I know "perhaps" the Trade Federation didn't know this, and in fact believed they had dozens of Dreadnoughts, right? I wouldn't be suprised if that was your rebuttal. These suggestions are purely your fantasies. This is farcical.
Given that the largest known vessel possessed by the Nabooan government was the Queen's Royal Starship, the turbolaser batteries and fighters (1000s of them) would've easily devestated the whole planet. The blockade contained millions of droid fighters and millions of armor and droid troops to be deployed.
Thirdfain wrote:Hell,. how do you know how many warships are generally used in blockades? the only other blockade we see is the Imperial blockade of Hoth- a blockade which need cover only a single base, rather than a whole planet.
Red herring.
Who the hell cares what the "standard blockade" is? Standard to who anyway? The Empire? Republic? Ancient Sith Empire?
The point is quite simple: the Trade Federation could afford to toss ten thousand light carriers twice the diameter of an ISD's length with vastly more troops and vehicles and fighters at a mostly defenseless planet in a frivolous display of force (ten miles apart is inches for SW warships) for mere political manipulation without worrying about hurting their defense needs.
Thirdfain wrote:I do not disagree with that point- I am simply asserting that the Alliance had enough resources to assure that such an action would carry a heavy cost.
Yet the Empire was able to easily mount an assault six-years post Endor, after rapidly retaking and securing a swathe of territory from Coruscant to the Outer Rim.
Apparently Thirdfain believes the Imperial fleet is not prepared to assault and take hardened targets and would rather let its enemies, which are a comparitively weak and territory-less band of Rebels, have a full-fledged shipyard. An assertion, I add, that he cannot backup. I've seen no evidence; none, zilch, zero, that Calamari was churning out Rebel ships
en masse after the Imperial occupation left.
It is his manufactured assumption that there was major Rebel fleet-building that made an Imperial assault neccessary, which he then concludes proves the Rebels could blunt an Imperial assault. However, there's no evidence to suggest the first assumption, esp. to the extent of the original ludicrious analogies to Kuat and N'zoth.
I want a shred of evidence that Calamari was a major production world for the Rebellion at all. Evidence it was fortified.
Because the occupation left, that just means the Empire deemed it a waste of time. Calamari annoyance through partisan actions, and a lack of remaining production ability (I find it incredible that some believe the Empire just left all the yards and factories and mines around Calamari intact when they merely arrived, much less when they left) that simply made maintaining the occupation a burden that wasn't worth it, so they withdrew.
It is consistent with all the official and canon accounts of a small guerilla Rebel Alliance, the kind one would think could not hold a world from the Imperial Navy.
Thirdfain wrote:Mon Calamari is defended by a planetary shield, and presumably heavy defences like ground-to orbit Ion Cannon and turbolasers, making bombardment impractical.
The New Republic mounted full-scale, planet-wide w-165 KDY PTL coverage on over three hundred worlds. Yet we hear that the reunited fleet of Admiral Daala and Vice Admiral Pelleaon's crude federation of warlord fiefdoms would threaten this galactic hegemon.
Yet apparently, according to Thirdfain and the aforementioned assumptions, Calamari, mounting a similar defense, was too difficult to assault.
Thirdfain wrote:A diversion of force large enough to crack the defences would open up the Empire to even more of the partisan surgical strikes the Rebellion loved so much. The Empire might be able to smash Mon Calamari, but the cost of such an action would be prohibitive.
Utter bullshit. Mon Mothma says that "with Imperial Fleet spread throughout the galaxy in a vain effort to engage us, it is relatively unprotected." They was enough excess forces to patrol and defend the Empire with enough left over to be searching all over the entire galaxy for the Rebels, yet unable to locate them. Gee, sounds like a overstrained force to me. And Mon Mothma was wrong too. Not only could they afford to patrol and defend the Imperial territory, AND be off everywhere in the galaxy searching for the Rebels, they ALSO could muster a full Sector Group's worth of Star Destroyers to surround, to quote Ackbar, "nearly the entire Rebel Alliance fleet" which was "[wouldn't] last long against those Star Destroyers," again according to the Rebel Admiral.
Thirdfain wrote:Proof the Mon Calamari were not assisting the Rebellion covertly- The crews of the Mon Cal ships wore Mon Calamarian Navy uniforms, not Rebel uniforms.
Leap in logic: the Mon Calamari had a fleet before, during the Clone Wars, and a Calamarian even commanded a strike on Kamino (ref: Republic #50). Their choice to wear their own uniforms != Calamari the Rebel Kuat.
Thirdfain wrote:The Imperial Fleet is, as she says, overextended. This proves at least one point- The Rebel Alliance had enough ships to strike against and harrass the Empire widely enough that it severly limited the ability of the Imperium to project force. The fact that the Empire is not out smashing worlds like Mon Calamari only supports this point- Constant pressure from Alliance raids force Imperial fleets to maintain generally defensive stances.
"Defensive stances?"
"...in a vain effort to
engage us."
engage
\En*gage"\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. Engaged; p. pr. & vb. n. Engaging.] [F. engager; pref. en- (L. in) + gage pledge, pawn. See Gage.]
5. To enter into contest with; to encounter; to bring to conflict.
A favorable opportunity of engaging the enemy. --Ludlow.
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.
"to bring conflict"--doesn't sound too defensive and passive to me. Sounds like they're trying to find and attack.
They're looking for the Rebels to try and destroy them, not holing up around bases in defense. This is farcical.
Thirdfain wrote:The only explanation is that the Rebel fleet which attacked the Death Star over Endor was of sufficient size to smash the Imperials. EU sources would have us believe there were actually a fair number of Rebel capital ships which survived the conflict, which points to a significant numerical advantage over the Imperials.
Thirdfain uses the existance of a fleet
not even supposed to be there as justification for his belief as to the size of the Rebel fleet.
The ISD II and ISD I models have few weapons on them other than the heavy turbolaser turrets, which have unfavorable geometry and manuverability for close range. Never before, implied by the ROTJ novelisation, had ships engaged at such point-blank ranges. It is quite likely that Rebel ships, which from EU sources are known to be more likely to possess such short-range weapons like heavy missiles that'd normally be shot down, and the canon models, which show a whole host of numerous medium gunports; weapons the ISD does not possess but would be ideal for short-range battle.
Neverminding the fact that Palpatine ordered the Sector Group to not annhiliate the Rebels, and once he died the forces were so disarrayed and paralyzed that Solo was actually able to board and capture one. The TIEs couldn't destroy the Falcon, etc, etc.
According to the ROTJ novelisation, Palpatine's death brought choas and damp fear to the Empire. Much of the Sector Group's worth of SDs simply turned and fled away.
Palpatine's stalling, and the utter decay of the Imperial cohesion, combined with the unique and ironic superior weapons implacements of the lighter and smaller Rebel cruisers were able to outfight the Imperial destroyers, many of which simply fled w/out the Executor, the Death Star, or their mind-controlling Emperor.
Thirdfain wrote:One little problem. You have no evidence to back it up. Every source indicates the Sullust gathering was 90% of the Rebel fleet.
Every source, except what we see on screen, in the movie itself. The movie, ultimate Canon, shows onscreen evidence which supports my theory.
So we'll manufacture contradictions where it will support your theory.
Everything I've seen indicates the Imperial Sector Group worth of
Imperator-class Star Destroyers, combined with the
Executor-class Command Ship Executor, a possible "communication ship" Imperial cruiser, and possibly Death Squadron's Imperator complement significantly dwarfed the Rebel battle fleet in firepower. Lando Calrissian is not familiar with nor would deduct the Imperial force's combat worthiness based on Dark Side Battle Meditation, and the Death Star is not observed to use any heavy turbolasers on the Rebel fleet. Thus, the "We won't last long against those Star Destroyers!" refers solely to the firepower and numbers of the Imperial force, not Battle Meditation or anything else.
This is supported by X-Wing Alliance and other sources, including the movie
Return of the Jedi itself: the entire fleet that would assault Endor was gathered in one place for preparation and briefing. Your "multiple staging areas" are a fantasy.
And as Ackbar says in his briefing to Rogue Squadron (Red Group) and Gold Group, (ref:
X-Wing Alliance) "we have gathered
nearly the entire Rebel Alliance fleet."
