Tactics and tools against Jedi

Smiling Bandit · Post by **Smiling Bandit** » 2003-08-11 02:33pm

In any event, there are a fair number of toxins that simply won't give them any time to do anything. The Jedi's neurological systems will be to busy spazzing out to do anything remotely resembling concentrating on the Force.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-08-11 02:33pm

Smiling Bandit wrote:In any event, there are a fair number of toxins that simply won't give them any time to do anything. The Jedi's neurological systems will be to busy spazzing out to do anything remotely resembling concentrating on the Force.

Except when they see it coming before it happens. Precog, remember?

Smiling Bandit · Post by **Smiling Bandit** » 2003-08-12 08:39am

That's why you use grenade weapons, toxin sprayers, and so forth. Plus, there's no problem with sending out a squad with multiple types of weapons. I suspect few Jedi will be able to constantly purge themselves of poisons and chemical weapons, resist the energy of a flame weapon, and stop bullets for any length of time.

And Jedi are worth enough in a fight that you should be able to send out many men for each one. Just because you can see it coming doesn't mean you can stop it.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-08-12 10:11am

Smiling Bandit wrote:That's why you use grenade weapons, toxin sprayers, and so forth.

Much recipe for disaster in that squad. You've already practically upped 'hand grenade' to 'big bomb o doom' that kills everyone (including the attackers), but if we go by the common sense version of hand grenade (the useful for actual combat sort), you're just asking to get them force pushed back in your face.

Plus, there's no problem with sending out a squad with multiple types of weapons. I suspect few Jedi will be able to constantly purge themselves of poisons and chemical weapons, resist the energy of a flame weapon, and stop bullets for any length of time.

So the Jedi is just gonna sit there in the middle of this squad taking it up the ass like a bitch, getting hit from all sides? Sure, that sounds realistic.

Smiling Bandit · Post by **Smiling Bandit** » 2003-08-12 12:39pm

Much recipe for disaster in that squad. You've already practically upped 'hand grenade' to 'big bomb o doom' that kills everyone (including the attackers), but if we go by the common sense version of hand grenade (the useful for actual combat sort), you're just asking to get them force pushed back in your face.

No. While an explosive (given SW technology) could theorectically be very powerful, in this scenario I am talking about toxic grenades, like Willy Petes. These aren't going to affect your own, heavily armored and sealed troops, but they will wreak havoc on Jedi. The point is that your men are equipped to see through smoke, debris, and can ignore toxins, flame, and so forth. If the Jedi want to push them, back, it is of no consequence, as the toxins will flow everywhere.

Obvisouly, there are drawbacks to this scenario, the least of which is sopraying poison around your fortress. It is highly reccomended that you train your men to seal off all doors, and be able to evacuate any section of given ship of base in minutes of an alert. this scenario also works far better if you can design defences from the ground up rather than using a stopgap, and have the defensive advantage. But used right, its a nearly 100% lethal technique, and requires no expensive droid traps to be installed.

In the other thread, I did indeed postulate that a Big Bomb O' Doom could work, but that is far more useful in a hidden campaign of attack.

So the Jedi is just gonna sit there in the middle of this squad taking it up the ass like a bitch, getting hit from all sides? Sure, that sounds realistic.

Of course not, nor did I intend to imply that. The trick is to arrange it so the Jedi cannot escape. That is, have men standing by on access points, use cameras to track them, and be able to move your troops into position to cut off escape routes. Sure, its a lot of work, but it requires only reusable hardware and is a lot cheaper than some techniques already listed. Plus, there is a lot less collateral damage.

It also only works indoors. Outside, you probably want to use other weapons, such as the aformentioned Big Bomb O' Doom. (I rteally like that name).

HRogge · Post by **HRogge** » 2003-08-12 12:50pm

Let them inside your underground base, then close all doors and pump the air out of the building...

An artificial gravity field which changes it's direction every few seconds might be useful too.

Captain Cyran · Post by **Captain Cyran** » 2003-08-12 03:04pm

HRogge wrote:Let them inside your underground base, then close all doors and pump the air out of the building...

An artificial gravity field which changes it's direction every few seconds might be useful too.

I still think my idea was the cheapest and most effective...

Tasoth · Post by **Tasoth** » 2003-08-12 05:32pm

Air support, rapid fire weaponry, and slugs that turn into molten globs of doom when passed through a saber blade. The jedi is screwed if he blocks.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-08-13 04:45pm

I can't believe I forgot the artificial gravity Hrogge, I've only used it every other chapte rin my fanfic. *puts head in bag* ARRGGGGHHH!

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2003-08-13 08:35pm

The artificial gravity trap almost killed Luke Skywalker in "New Rebellion." He was only saved because he happened to have some explosives with him.

They separated him from his lightsaber, restrained him, and started pumping the air out of the room. A Jedi can't survive in a vaccuum.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-08-14 12:43am

CaptainChewbacca wrote:The artificial gravity trap almost killed Luke Skywalker in "New Rebellion." He was only saved because he happened to have some explosives with him.

They separated him from his lightsaber, restrained him, and started pumping the air out of the room. A Jedi can't survive in a vaccuum.

That was Spectre of the Past moron. It was Captain Zothip's Pirate base, which Luke had infiltrated to investigate the possible possession clone soldiers from the Thrawn era conflict.

Cyke · Post by **Cyke** » 2003-08-16 06:34pm

Whoa, a lot of points brought up here in this "my dad can beat up your dad"-style discussion, heh.

We might be approaching the projectile weapon issue from the wrong direction.
Perhaps Jedi can easily deflect projectile weapons using a combination of precognition, and telekinesis or speed/evasion (this actually seems likely), and perhaps one of the reasons why Jedi choose lightsabers as their weapon is because they can't do the same with blaster bolts!

Note that the biggest weapon, in a way, that Jedi have, is their precognition. That is what makes it most difficult to trap, shoot, blow up or otherwise injure and kill them. The method for avoiding or diverting the attack is much less relevant when the target already knows its coming.
I haven't thought this through much, so correct me if I'm wrong, but most Jedi deaths were in fact seen before they came, and the victim simply knew that it was inevitable.
Thus, in seeking a solution, think of a method so overwhelming that even when the Jedi sees it coming, he is forced to resign himself to his fate.

Remember, as someone pointed out, the Jedi are few, and outnumbered by far by troops that can be trained even to elite levels in far greater numbers than there are Jedi.
Because of this, tactical considerations no longer require a superior kill rate. Sacrificng 10 or even 20 or more men to kill a single Jedi still results in our army coming out on top.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2003-08-17 01:39am

CaptainChewbacca wrote:The artificial gravity trap almost killed Luke Skywalker in "New Rebellion." He was only saved because he happened to have some explosives with him.

They separated him from his lightsaber, restrained him, and started pumping the air out of the room. A Jedi can't survive in a vaccuum.

Qui Gon and Obiwan ability to "hold their breath" in TPM will suggest that a Jedi endurance is longer than that of a normal human being though.

Lord_Xerxes · Post by **Lord_Xerxes** » 2003-08-17 01:40am

You know, this may or may not be a valid point, but back in my RP days I found the most effective means were bottlenecked hallways with a hollowed out section of wall behind armor plating, in which nutriet frames for Ysalamiri were placed, with overlapping bubbles. Effectively, this took away the precog, effective lightsaber parrying/deflecting of blaster shots, enhanced dodge/leap/running, and being able to disarm me/my troops via the Force. The best option for the Jedi is to try to cut into the walls to kill the Ysalamiri one by own, and by that time, any number of coventional weaponry could be/was employed.

I believe someone mentioned Flechette launchers. These were also quite popular in the sim I was in. Very effective too. This was pre-JKO, where Kyle's uber-Jedi wanking makes it seem like he can focus simulatenously on all the shrapnel that is suddenly sprayed at him and redirect it simulatenously all in the same direction.

Also, somwhere in the EGTWAT, there is a particular cage that works well on Force users. I believe someone tried/did use it on Luke somewhere in the EU. Apparently IIRC, it will respond to any Force-use by administering extreme pain to the user...and the harder they try to struggle, the worse it gets. I believe it also had failsafes against non-force more conviental means of escape.

These were the routes I used to go. But take it as you may.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-08-17 01:42am

The ysalimiri are the dumbest invention in the EU, and that's saying quite a lot.

Lord_Xerxes · Post by **Lord_Xerxes** » 2003-08-17 01:45am

Honestly Mike, I agree with you on that, (other than the Suncrusher). But I was just adding in my two sense as to the most effective vs Jedi from my "experience" so to speak.

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2003-08-17 12:49pm

PainRack wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:The artificial gravity trap almost killed Luke Skywalker in "New Rebellion." He was only saved because he happened to have some explosives with him.

They separated him from his lightsaber, restrained him, and started pumping the air out of the room. A Jedi can't survive in a vaccuum.
Qui Gon and Obiwan ability to "hold their breath" in TPM will suggest that a Jedi endurance is longer than that of a normal human being though.

It is possible that they were just detoxifying the gas that they inhaled, and were not infact holding their breath.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-08-23 03:45pm

For those advocating chemical weapons that do not have to be inhaled on the grounds that the Jedi can only do one thing at a time, recent REPUBLIC comics showed Obi wan, Anakin, a Master Glaive, and a Padawan named Zule fighting droids, reanimated Gungans, Durge, and Ventrass while also fighting the effects of a skin based chemical weapon.

So yeah, that won't work.

Darth Mall · Post by **Darth Mall** » 2003-08-31 04:28pm

equip your soldiers with si-ruvi paddle beamers and with regular blasters because a lightsaber can't block both at the same time without readjustments to the focus

also give them numerous seeker drones and large area blast ion cannons to short out the sabers

Tasoth wrote:Air support, rapid fire weaponry, and slugs that turn into molten globs of doom when passed through a saber blade. The jedi is screwed if he blocks.

tasoth, the light saber would vaporize the bullets and a jedi could pinch the barrel to a point where the however many bullets coming out of the gun would all collide and blow up the gun

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-08-31 06:29pm

Pinching a barrel is going to be signifigantly more difficult than Force Choke, and will be one more task distracting the Jedi. It would also be simple to rig a diagnostic sensor that checks for barrel blockage, and keeps the weapon from firing if it isn't clear.

'Vaporises the bullet.' That turns the bullet into superheated vapor, still enough of a problem to ruin the Jedi's day. Also will be extremely difficult to justify, since I would be using the densest possible slugs in order to make deflection with TK more difficult.

Darth Mall · Post by **Darth Mall** » 2003-08-31 08:18pm

consequences wrote:Pinching a barrel is going to be signifigantly more difficult than Force Choke, and will be one more task distracting the Jedi. It would also be simple to rig a diagnostic sensor that checks for barrel blockage, and keeps the weapon from firing if it isn't clear.

'Vaporises the bullet.' That turns the bullet into superheated vapor, still enough of a problem to ruin the Jedi's day. Also will be extremely difficult to justify, since I would be using the densest possible slugs in order to make deflection with TK more difficult.

yes those steps would work, but with the gun not working the soldier would have to spend the time to get out a new one, giving the jedi time to slice off his arm.
Also to stop the slug guns from working the jedi could create a bubble of no air around the guns/people. now while the people might have oxy tanks, the guns wouldn't work unless they were proppeled like a rail gun.

in addition to what i said earlier you could give the soldiers sonics because those would be very hard to deflect.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-08-31 11:09pm

consequences wrote:Pinching a barrel is going to be signifigantly more difficult than Force Choke, and will be one more task distracting the Jedi. It would also be simple to rig a diagnostic sensor that checks for barrel blockage, and keeps the weapon from firing if it isn't clear.

Much more simple to knock the barrels aside (or rip the guns from the attacker's hands) and fling them away.

'Vaporises the bullet.' That turns the bullet into superheated vapor, still enough of a problem to ruin the Jedi's day. Also will be extremely difficult to justify, since I would be using the densest possible slugs in order to make deflection with TK more difficult.

Jedi can casually toss aside multi-ton battle droids and leap into the air at a rate of tens of gees. Unlerss you're thinking artillery or tank rounds, even high density slugs (probably something in the AMR range) still isn't going to offer much of a difficulty at even high rates of fire (unless you're talking like hundreds or thousands of rounds simultaneously, which of course again screams overkill.)

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-08-31 11:16pm

Before the Storm, page 16 wrote:
"There are only two ways for non-Jedi to defeat Jedi in battle: lull them into a false sense of security, or overwhelm them with sheer force of numbers."

(this of course does not mean non-Jedi with Jedi-like superhuman abilities, magic, psionics, etc. are instantly unable to defeat Jedi - nor does it make Jedi immune to starfighter strafing runs, artillery/orbital bombardment, and the like.)

That pretty much forms the basis for most "tactics" and "tools" to use against a Jedi: subtly through deception meant to not trigger their precognition, or overwhelming firepower/capability.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-08-31 11:17pm

One good example is that in Geonosis, "overwhelming firepower/numbers" was used - the AOTC novelization describes thousands of battle droids against around 100-200 Jedi. Roughyl speaking, that works out to 10:1 odds or more.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-09-01 09:01am

Connor MacLeod wrote:One good example is that in Geonosis, "overwhelming firepower/numbers" was used - the AOTC novelization describes thousands of battle droids against around 100-200 Jedi. Roughyl speaking, that works out to 10:1 odds or more.

I believe the movie comic gives a line something like "Yes, but is a single Jedi worth a thousnad droids?" and then they all come marching up.

Interesting to note that if we take Dooku's statement there at face value (it was also originally in the script IIRC) then both sides armies were numeratically matched (200000 clones vs 200000 droids). The resulting victory would have been supposed to enforce the idea that clones are superior. It would also show a justification for the clone numbers given originally (why they were chosen, not that they would make sense mind you).

Of course, since that line was cut, we shall never know.