Executor Question

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Post by Sharp-kun »

Super-Gagme wrote:If someone can name ONE other source other than measuring a scene in the film of it being 17.6km then I'll just go neutral as I am with a lot of issues.
Archeologist and Lucasfilm employee Dr David West Reynolds has taken measurements of the original Executor model in the Lucasfilm Archives. He took the measurements on my personal request, for use in this site. Scaling according to the constant command tower, the total length is calculated to lie between 17.4km and 17.8km. The most likely definitive value for the Executor length is 17.6km.
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Post by Howedar »

The ISD is stated to be one mile long in the ANH novellization, which is lower-level canon.
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Post by MrAnderson »

Akbar had also ordered the entire Rebel Fleet to concentrate all firepower on the Executor.

So the damage to the bridge might not the only factor in the crash.
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Post by FTeik »

Super-Gagme wrote:
Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Don't be an ass.

Canon overrides official. That is final.
Yeah and when there is not 100% proof of those numbers people got from measuring frames but 100% proof that SW.com has 12.8km... I trust stuff made by lucasarts not what bad camera angles might have created. Its not a case of I want the size to be 12.8, infact it would be much cooler the bigger it is. Gives it more appeal but what I want and what I am forced to believe are different. If someone can name ONE other source other than measuring a scene in the film of it being 17.6km then I'll just go neutral as I am with a lot of issues.
From SW to Indiana Jones confirms, that the Exe was supposed to be eleven times longer, than the ISD and it also said, that the bridge-towers of both ships were of identical size. Equal bridge-towers means a lenght of 17,6 kilometers, too.

And the original model WAS smaller, than one of the ISD-models.
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Post by Utsanomiko »

8 kilometers is obviously too short. Everyone knows that.

17.6 is the length derived from actual measurements and scaling.

The only reason anyone could come up with 12.8 is if they already know 17.6 is the 'real' length, but they're too chicken to make a major confliction with WEG's non-research and instead opt for a compromise between the exact middle of the two lengths. It depends upon a baseless, irrational denial of the real length.

12.8 is a stupid, stubborn, gutless copout. Don't use it.
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Post by Lex »

optics can disturb your sight... if the executor is closer to you, it appears bigger than any ship behind it
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Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

Lex wrote:optics can disturb your sight... if the executor is closer to you, it appears bigger than any ship behind it
Congradulations, you've just discovered the basic properties of depth.

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Post by Mad »

Lex wrote:optics can disturb your sight... if the executor is closer to you, it appears bigger than any ship behind it
And if the ISD is closer to you than the SSD, then the SSD will appear smaller than it really is next to it.

Now, check this picture out.

As you can see, the ISD in the lower right-hand corner of the SSD is in front of the SSD, meaning that it's closer than the SSD is. Now do a comparison. Simply by copy-pasting, it's obvious that the SSD is no less than 10 times as long as the ISD is. Therefore, the 17.6 km number fits what we see on film better than the 12.8 km number.
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Post by Master of Ossus »

Super-Gagme wrote: Yeah and when there is not 100% proof of those numbers people got from measuring frames
What do you mean there isn't 100% proof? The margin of error in many of those measurements is MINISCULE, and when a bunch of measurements from various scenes ALL overlap at 17.6 kilometers, the trend becomes obvious.
but 100% proof that SW.com has 12.8km... I trust stuff made by lucasarts not what bad camera angles might have created.
Show that these measurements rely on "bad camera angles," even though most of them are from fairly good camera angles. While you're at it, explain why the allegedly poor camera angles could possibly have changed the size of the ISD by that much, given the shots that we have, and explain why the fact that SW.com says one thing necessarily indicates that the film is wrong.
Its not a case of I want the size to be 12.8, infact it would be much cooler the bigger it is. Gives it more appeal but what I want and what I am forced to believe are different. If someone can name ONE other source other than measuring a scene in the film of it being 17.6km then I'll just go neutral as I am with a lot of issues.
What is this? Why merely become a neutral bystander? The Executor IS 17.6 kilometers long. This has been demonstrated time and time again, by using the real source material as opposed to poor secondary sources. The films override the EU and SW.com. The films show a 17.6 km starship. There is no ambiguity here, and no reason to stay "neutral."

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Post by CmdrWilkens »

Lex wrote:
CmdrWilkens wrote:The thing with emergency SOPs is that they are built dirt simple. In other words because you assume a catastrophe you plan for not having anything available. In other words an emergency escape SOP is going to assume that the vessel is nearly crippled thus it will incorporate the fewest possible systems and ideas into its routine. The emergency escape SOP is probably built with the idea that you've lost almost all of your central command and control functions thus it would not incorporate any kind of tactical plot or other device, it would merely try to run the ship to full thrust and get the hell out of dodge.
That would be stupid. Even a SOP would be intelligent enough to avoid a planet or a moon like battle station. even if your ship is almost lost, you dont want it to be completely destroyed by crushing into a planet or a moon if you build a programm for fleeing. as soulman(EDIT: i wrote wilkins here before, forgive me) said, the impact of a spaceship on a planet would not only kill the ship, but the planet as well. even the most simple system can see a planet and avoid touching it
Well again here's the problem:
1) You are assuming the SOP is computerized rather than the engine techs seeing the bridge being lost and manually jamming the throttles to full
2) SOPs again are designed to minimize the chance of a mechanical fault. In other words if you assume that you have sufered catastrophic damage then you also assume that you neat computer programs won't be able to function properly.

Once more let me repeat, for dire emergencies you trust mechanical systems as little as physically possible.

3) The corollary to that is actually part of point #1, a lot of SOPs detail what the CREW, not the Computer should do. If the Executor's SOP is similair to modern evasion emergency SOPs then the engineers down by the engines simply gunned them, probably assuming that the secondary bridge would attempt to take contol.

Here's my bet for normal emergency (haha) SOP and what happened at Endor:

Catastrophic Emergency SOP:
Asumption 1: Primary control of vessel has been lost
Assumption 2: C&C is currently waiting to be re-established
Conclusion 1: Escape current locaiton to minimize chance of being attacked while unable to effectively respond
Action 1: Thrusters to full
Action 2: Assume control from secondary C&C location
Action 3: Resume course as directed from secondary C&C location

Now at Endor I bet the engineer's jamemd the engines to full and they just misfired before the secondary bridge could react and gain control of the situation. now I include it all as a likely action because in most battles the planets are going to be well away from you and I doubt anybody ever thought to include the prescence of a 900km wide battlestation in their SOPs. Remember these wouldhave been written when the ship was built and reviewed on a regular basis and when directed. Unless Piett ordered a review of their SOP before the battle its likely that nobody thought to change things.
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Post by CaptainChewbacca »

CmdrWilkens wrote: That would be stupid. Even a SOP would be intelligent enough to avoid a planet or a moon like battle station. even if your ship is almost lost, you dont want it to be completely destroyed by crushing into a planet or a moon if you build a programm for fleeing. as soulman(EDIT: i wrote wilkins here before, forgive me) said, the impact of a spaceship on a planet would not only kill the ship, but the planet as well. even the most simple system can see a planet and avoid touching it
Well again here's the problem:
1) You are assuming the SOP is computerized rather than the engine techs seeing the bridge being lost and manually jamming the throttles to full
2) SOPs again are designed to minimize the chance of a mechanical fault. In other words if you assume that you have sufered catastrophic damage then you also assume that you neat computer programs won't be able to function properly.

Once more let me repeat, for dire emergencies you trust mechanical systems as little as physically possible.

3) The corollary to that is actually part of point #1, a lot of SOPs detail what the CREW, not the Computer should do. If the Executor's SOP is similair to modern evasion emergency SOPs then the engineers down by the engines simply gunned them, probably assuming that the secondary bridge would attempt to take contol.

Here's my bet for normal emergency (haha) SOP and what happened at Endor:

Catastrophic Emergency SOP:
Asumption 1: Primary control of vessel has been lost
Assumption 2: C&C is currently waiting to be re-established
Conclusion 1: Escape current locaiton to minimize chance of being attacked while unable to effectively respond
Action 1: Thrusters to full
Action 2: Assume control from secondary C&C location
Action 3: Resume course as directed from secondary C&C location

Now at Endor I bet the engineer's jamemd the engines to full and they just misfired before the secondary bridge could react and gain control of the situation. now I include it all as a likely action because in most battles the planets are going to be well away from you and I doubt anybody ever thought to include the prescence of a 900km wide battlestation in their SOPs. Remember these wouldhave been written when the ship was built and reviewed on a regular basis and when directed. Unless Piett ordered a review of their SOP before the battle its likely that nobody thought to change things.[/quote]

I think you make much sense, but here's my $.02:

The destruction of the Executor seems to me to be similar to what happened to the Kursk when it crashed. In the case of the Executor, could not the explosive loss of their command bridge combined with continued venting of atmosphere from the breach and temporary loss of atitude control be what turned the ship towards the DS? With a hole that big and spreading, it would have spun the ship like a balloon with a slow leak.

I mean, the ship had suffered pretty much a catastrophic hit and was in the middle of emergency procedures. Could it be that internal sensor displays and/or communications were so bad at that time that no one in the engine room knew that the ship was turning? I mean, it isn't being done by the engines, so they shouldn't be aware of it. When they restarted engines and atitude, they wouldn't have been aware of the change in orientation.

This to me is the only plausible explanation for why the Executor turned TOWARDS the Death Star to crash into it head-on. Gravity could have pulled it in, but as stated previously, it would not have turned the ship while it was in a vacuum.

Does this make sense to anyone else?
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Post by Lex »

CmdrWilkens wrote:
Lex wrote:
CmdrWilkens wrote:The thing with emergency SOPs is that they are built dirt simple. In other words because you assume a catastrophe you plan for not having anything available. In other words an emergency escape SOP is going to assume that the vessel is nearly crippled thus it will incorporate the fewest possible systems and ideas into its routine. The emergency escape SOP is probably built with the idea that you've lost almost all of your central command and control functions thus it would not incorporate any kind of tactical plot or other device, it would merely try to run the ship to full thrust and get the hell out of dodge.
That would be stupid. Even a SOP would be intelligent enough to avoid a planet or a moon like battle station. even if your ship is almost lost, you dont want it to be completely destroyed by crushing into a planet or a moon if you build a programm for fleeing. as soulman(EDIT: i wrote wilkins here before, forgive me) said, the impact of a spaceship on a planet would not only kill the ship, but the planet as well. even the most simple system can see a planet and avoid touching it
Well again here's the problem:
1) You are assuming the SOP is computerized rather than the engine techs seeing the bridge being lost and manually jamming the throttles to full
2) SOPs again are designed to minimize the chance of a mechanical fault. In other words if you assume that you have sufered catastrophic damage then you also assume that you neat computer programs won't be able to function properly.

Once more let me repeat, for dire emergencies you trust mechanical systems as little as physically possible.

3) The corollary to that is actually part of point #1, a lot of SOPs detail what the CREW, not the Computer should do. If the Executor's SOP is similair to modern evasion emergency SOPs then the engineers down by the engines simply gunned them, probably assuming that the secondary bridge would attempt to take contol.

Here's my bet for normal emergency (haha) SOP and what happened at Endor:

Catastrophic Emergency SOP:
Asumption 1: Primary control of vessel has been lost
Assumption 2: C&C is currently waiting to be re-established
Conclusion 1: Escape current locaiton to minimize chance of being attacked while unable to effectively respond
Action 1: Thrusters to full
Action 2: Assume control from secondary C&C location
Action 3: Resume course as directed from secondary C&C location

Now at Endor I bet the engineer's jamemd the engines to full and they just misfired before the secondary bridge could react and gain control of the situation. now I include it all as a likely action because in most battles the planets are going to be well away from you and I doubt anybody ever thought to include the prescence of a 900km wide battlestation in their SOPs. Remember these wouldhave been written when the ship was built and reviewed on a regular basis and when directed. Unless Piett ordered a review of their SOP before the battle its likely that nobody thought to change things.


Yeah, maybe noone included the DS, but since the DS has the sieze of a small moon, any SOP would not want it's ship crash into a moon:

Catastrophic Emergency SOP:
Asumption 1: Primary control of vessel has been lost
Assumption 2: C&C is currently waiting to be re-established
Conclusion 1: Escape current locaiton to minimize chance of being attacked while unable to effectively respond
Action 1: Ensure evade path is cleared of objects which could cause colleteral damage ---- obstacle detected
Action 2: Correct course to avoid the obstacle
Action 3: Thrusters to full
Action 4: Wait for C&C section to retake control
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Post by Ender »

CaptainChewbacca wrote:I think you make much sense, but here's my $.02:

The destruction of the Executor seems to me to be similar to what happened to the Kursk when it crashed. In the case of the Executor, could not the explosive loss of their command bridge combined with continued venting of atmosphere from the breach and temporary loss of atitude control be what turned the ship towards the DS? With a hole that big and spreading, it would have spun the ship like a balloon with a slow leak.

I mean, the ship had suffered pretty much a catastrophic hit and was in the middle of emergency procedures. Could it be that internal sensor displays and/or communications were so bad at that time that no one in the engine room knew that the ship was turning? I mean, it isn't being done by the engines, so they shouldn't be aware of it. When they restarted engines and atitude, they wouldn't have been aware of the change in orientation.

This to me is the only plausible explanation for why the Executor turned TOWARDS the Death Star to crash into it head-on. Gravity could have pulled it in, but as stated previously, it would not have turned the ship while it was in a vacuum.

Does this make sense to anyone else?
No, becaue the momentum imparted by the escaping gas would have been miniscule. It would be akin to trying to push a M1A2 Tank with a stick.
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Post by Ender »

Lex wrote:Yeah, maybe noone included the DS, but since the DS has the sieze of a small moon, any SOP would not want it's ship crash into a moon:

Catastrophic Emergency SOP:
Asumption 1: Primary control of vessel has been lost
Assumption 2: C&C is currently waiting to be re-established
Conclusion 1: Escape current locaiton to minimize chance of being attacked while unable to effectively respond
Action 1: Ensure evade path is cleared of objects which could cause colleteral damage ---- obstacle detected
Action 2: Correct course to avoid the obstacle
Action 3: Thrusters to full
Action 4: Wait for C&C section to retake control
Ok, you are going to need to be clear here if I am going to help you:


1) What part of "Ruun over any ships in your way because they will take the brunt of the damage" did you not understand?

2) What part of "Simplified, as few steps as possible trusting as few mechanical systems as possible" did you not understand?


To me, these statements are both very clear. But apparently you don't understand them.
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Post by Vympel »

Can someone post that Empire Strikes Back picture that shows the ISD under, and closer to the camera, than the Executor? That is the best picture showing just how obvious it is that it isn't 12.8km, and it isn't 8km, it's 17.6km. Period.

EDIT:

here:

very good picture
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Post by Super-Gagme »

As nice as theres measurements are I mean I would like to see published material that states 17.6km long.
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Post by Mad »

Vympel wrote:Can someone post that Empire Strikes Back picture that shows the ISD under, and closer to the camera, than the Executor? That is the best picture showing just how obvious it is that it isn't 12.8km, and it isn't 8km, it's 17.6km. Period.

EDIT:

here:

very good picture
That picture's weird. The ISD in front of the Executor appears to have a smaller bridge tower than the Executor's tower. Yet the towers are supposed to be the same, so an ISD in the front should appear to have a slightly larger tower due to perspective.

A better pictures is the one I posted earlier. The bridge tower sizes are about the same, and it also has an ISD be in front of the Executor so we can get a lower-limit on the Executor's length. (And it should still be 17.6 klicks.)
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Post by Lex »

Ender wrote:
Lex wrote:Yeah, maybe noone included the DS, but since the DS has the sieze of a small moon, any SOP would not want it's ship crash into a moon:

Catastrophic Emergency SOP:
Asumption 1: Primary control of vessel has been lost
Assumption 2: C&C is currently waiting to be re-established
Conclusion 1: Escape current locaiton to minimize chance of being attacked while unable to effectively respond
Action 1: Ensure evade path is cleared of objects which could cause colleteral damage ---- obstacle detected
Action 2: Correct course to avoid the obstacle
Action 3: Thrusters to full
Action 4: Wait for C&C section to retake control
Ok, you are going to need to be clear here if I am going to help you:


1) What part of "Ruun over any ships in your way because they will take the brunt of the damage" did you not understand?

2) What part of "Simplified, as few steps as possible trusting as few mechanical systems as possible" did you not understand?


To me, these statements are both very clear. But apparently you don't understand them.
I didnt even adress you

1)Hä?

2)A system that brings your ship into a sun, planet or moon is pointless and not even some stupid imperial officers with too much times in their hand would invent something like this. If you build a SOP you want it to bring a heavily damaged ship out of the battlezone to ensure it survives. Driving it into a moon, or a moonlike battlestation is a "very bad idea"
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Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

Super-Gagme wrote:As nice as theres measurements are I mean I would like to see published material that states 17.6km long.
Ugh. You still refuse to accept visual evidence?

We have. Read through the thread, and you should see them.

EDIT: From here:
http://www.theforce.net/swtc/ssd5mile.html
1994:
Within the last year another book, extensively illustrated and based on the actual film props of the Lucasfilm Archives has been released. From STAR WARS to Indiana Jones [SW2IJ], benefits from access to primary artefacts, and the text succinctly states:

... the flagship of Darth Vader, was conceived as eleven times the size of the original Star Destroyer of Star Wars. (For reference, the conning tower that rises from Executor was supposed to be as big as the original destroyer's conning tower.)
1998:
Archeologist and Lucasfilm employee Dr David West Reynolds has taken measurements of the original Executor model in the Lucasfilm Archives. He took the measurements on my personal request, for use in this site. Scaling according to the constant command tower, the total length is calculated to lie between 17.4km and 17.8km. The most likely definitive value for the Executor length is 17.6km.
There.
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Post by Mad »

Lex wrote:2)A system that brings your ship into a sun, planet or moon is pointless and not even some stupid imperial officers with too much times in their hand would invent something like this. If you build a SOP you want it to bring a heavily damaged ship out of the battlezone to ensure it survives. Driving it into a moon, or a moonlike battlestation is a "very bad idea"
So, let me get this straight: you're saying there's a better way to get a "heavily damaged ship out of the battlezone" than hitting full throttle.

Please, enlighten us as to what a superior SOP would be, utilizing as few systems as possible. It has to be very quick, so checking to see if various systems are online to be used is going to result in more unecessary damage to the ship. So it should be assumed that sensors, weapons, and shields are offline.

If you cannot give us a superior SOP that meets the criteria, then why are you complaining about the one that's been mentioned? Space is vast, and the chances of hitting a larger object than the Executor are very small in typical combat conditions.
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Post by Lex »

omg it would take the computer not even a second to figure out that there is a larger object than a SSD in his way... all other courses are acceptable, so he just decides the fastest course out of the battlezone without ramming a moon and totally destroying the ship
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Post by Mad »

Lex wrote:omg it would take the computer not even a second to figure out that there is a larger object than a SSD in his way... all other courses are acceptable, so he just decides the fastest course out of the battlezone without ramming a moon and totally destroying the ship
To quote CmdrWilkens:
"1) You are assuming the SOP is computerized rather than the engine techs seeing the bridge being lost and manually jamming the throttles to full"

The computer may not be involved in the SOP, since the SOP has to assume as many systems are offline as it can. That would include the computer and sensors. (And if sensors are offline, the computer can't figure out that anything is in the way.)
Later...
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Post by Lex »

if i create a SOP to resc the ship in the last sec because bridge is delt with, why do i locate all sensors in a brdige that can be destroyed so easy?
if i prog a SOP, it will have mini sensors... i mean sensors can be anything as long as they locate anything that is bigger than a 17.8 km ship, the range could be very small as well
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Post by Mad »

Lex wrote:if i create a SOP to resc the ship in the last sec because bridge is delt with, why do i locate all sensors in a brdige that can be destroyed so easy?
if i prog a SOP, it will have mini sensors... i mean sensors can be anything as long as they locate anything that is bigger than a 17.8 km ship, the range could be very small as well
If the bridge has been destroyed, the shields are down. The firepower required to take the shields down is enormous, meaning the hull should have damage spread all over it (an entire fleet pounding on it will typically have that effect). In that case, how can you be sure your "mini sensors" will still be operational, as opposed to, say, being vaporized or slagged by enemy fire?
Later...
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Post by Lex »

you cant be 100% sure, but you never can be 100% of course im prepeared for that and will have over 100 or even 1000 of them(yes since as you said the executor will be heavily damaged if it comes to a bridge losss), but even with 1000 sensors you cannot be sure that they arent deytroyed, but the odds make it unlikely that all sensors are knocked out before the executor gets on course
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