Ender wrote:You well know the name game is bullshit. Modern governments call destroyers frigates and cruisers because it sounds more peaceful. Carrack class ships that ae at best picket ships are called cruisers. The New Republic calls its battleships "Star Defenders". Going off the names is bullshit.
So you deem them cruisers just cuz you say so? Well then I guess we shouldn't call the Alleigance class Star Destroyers or the Victory class Star Destroyers either.
You need to check your information. The gun loadouts are identical, only difference between the two is that they gave the Nebula torpedos. Its another thing they fucked up, reusing stats.
Uhm. I beg to differ:
Republic class in CTD as per page 74 gives it 40 heavy TL batteries at 8D damage, 40 HTL cannons at 6D damage, 20 ion cannons at 5D damage, and 10 tractor beams at 6D damage.
The Defender/Nebula class has (as per stats on page 80:
40 heavy TL batteries at 10D, 40 Heavy TL cannons at 7D, 20 ion cannons at 4D (about the only advantage the Republic class has is slightly more damaging ion cannons, it would seem), 8 tractor beam projectors at 4D, and 8 concussion missile tubes at 9D
And if we ignore the stats and go with fluff:
Page 74: "Two Republics can be produced for the Cost of an Imperial, with about one-fifth the crew complement and 20 percent more firepower than the Imperial I model. Although still outmatched in terms of raw firepower by the Imperial II model and gargantuan Super Star Destsroyer, the Republic can hold its own against any other Star Destroyer, heavy cruiser, or host of smaller ships."
Page 79: "Occasionaly called a 'pocket Star Destroyer' it is only 65% as large as the classic Imperial Star Destroyer, but is a match for the Imperial II. A fully capable cruiser, the DSD has more shielding and armor than any known ship in the galaxy, combines the best features of its predecessors and is expected to defeat any one enemy Star Destroyer, or two heavy cruisers, or up to an entire line of light Imperial ships."
Both are from Cracken's Threat Dossier.
Just to reinforce CTD further, we refer to "Starships of the Galaxy" from WOTC, which also features the Defender/Nebula (page 93):
"Defender-class Star Destroyers are the New Republic's most powerful warships, designed to be the ultimate Star Destroyers. They're a good deal smaller than classic Imperial Star Destroyers, but pack as much firepower as an Imperial-II."
Now, maybe you would like to provide some counter-evidence aside from claiming that my sources are horribly flawed?
The statement in the BFC when they are reviewing the ships the X-wings are detecting stating that the NR uses smaller ships.
Check your bloody sources next time, please.
Shield of lies, page 323: "From the beginning, the New Republic had opted to build a larger number of smaller vessels - Fleet Carriers, Republic-class Star Destroyers, battle cruisers - rather than adopt the Imperial design philosophy."
I see no mention of the Alliance whatsoever. Only a reference to the New Republic. And this is "smaller" relative to an Executor class, another small detial you might have noticed (so don't go screaming about Home One again, please. I grow tired of your repeated strawmans because you aren't paying attention.) The exact scaling of the "new Class" ships is given in Cracken's Threat Dossier mostly.
You have proof that its existance was not widely known?
Shield of Lies states on page 323 that the *only* Executor-class captured by the Empire was scrapped. If it was the Lusankya, we knew for a fact in both Isard's Revenge, or the Enemy Lines duology that the Lusankya Survived. We know that the Guardian is still in existence as per Destiny's Way. They kept/captured the Lusankya YEARS before the Guardian, and did not scrap it. If Shield of Lies says that they only captured one Executor class, and that it was scrapped, yet we know that they captured two and continued using them even AFTER the BFC, this means their existence was NOT widely known, at least up until that time.
Or that the size of the Home One and her sisters was not widely known?
What the fucking hell does this have to do with anything I said. I've not mentioned the Home One in regard to either hte New Class or the existence of the SSD's the New REpublic had. We're talking about the New class building program, try to keep that in mind for Christ's sake.
And the capture of the Guardian happened 16 years after Yavin, same year as the BFC.
I SAID 12 years after Endor. That's the same thing as 16 yeaers after Yavin.
Are you even *bothering* to read what I post or are you just inventing my responses in your head?
The statement that the NR used smaller ships and never used large ones is bullshit, and contradicted numerous times, thus making any argument based off that statement wrong.
Apparently you're making alot of statements without checking your information. I'm not saying that the NR never used larger ones, I am saying the NEW CLASS BUILDING PROGRAM EMPHASIZED SMALLER SHIPS OVER LARGER ONES, AND THAT THE MOTHER FUCKING INTENT OF SAID NEW CLASS WAS TO REPLACE ALL THE OLDER SHIPS WITH SMALLER, MORE MODERN SHIPS. Please stop these strawman arguments where you inflate my discussions on the "new class building program" to mean that I am talking about every goddamn building program the New Republic has engaged in.
That does not contradict it in the slightest, as the statement you base the claim of the intent off of is wrong.
It contradicts insofar as you appear to have not the slightest fucking clue of what I am saying. So far, you've demonstrated erroneous nkowledge of the sources involved, inattention to the points I am making, and outright distortions of my original argument. Just so you don't forget, stop thinking that because I am talking about the NEW CLASS building project I am talking about every single building project the New Republic has engaged in for decades.
Yes, it takes time and money to replace such a huge fleet, something a peace hungry governement recovering from a devestating war isn't going to alot a lot of. The Empire which had the most aggressive known millitary industrial complex still used pre clone wars ships, yet you think the fact that a less aggressive government in a more peaceful time is going to be slower to upgrade its warfleet is a contradiction.
I said no such thing. The point I am *trying* to make is that the New Class program as stated intended on replacing the "Old" New republic fleet with a smaller number of newer and less massive warships. They intended to get rid of ALL their old ships (given that they were far smaller at this point in time, it makes sense) and replacing them as they could. HAD the New Class program been fully carried out, the *OLD* fleet (which had larger, but older warships) would have been replaced by the smaller but newer designs, and in smaller numbers than before. (Hence the CTD statements about "downsizing" the fleet.
Given that they still employ older designs like the MC80, they did not complete the New Class project AS INTENDED (IE: both downsizing and modernizing their fleet). In fact, they kept the old Imperator-models as well (this was indicated in the Hand of Thrawn Duology, when they were planning the assault on Yaga Minor), to say nothing of the Mon Cal ships.
In short: The NEW CLASS building program was meant to replace the entire old New Republic fleet in theory, but in practice only complemented it. Which is WHAT I have been saying all along.
You know what's funny? Nothing you posted from CTD says a word about the ships being smaller. That line comes from the books themselves, and is simply incorrect, as I have pointed out in all my posts here.
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Yet so far as it goes I've provided far more evidence than you have (and I've at least taken pains to ensure my evidence is *accurate*)
You want the sizes of the New Class ships given in CTD?
Corona-class Firgate (EG, Boldhart, Endor, Shooting Star) - 275 meters long pg 72
Belarus class medium Cruiser (Glorious) - 400 meters page 73
Republic-class Star Destroyer: 1,250 meters page 74
Agave class picket ship - 190 meters (page 76)
Warrior-class gunship - 190 meters (page - 76 - I believe this is also given in Tyrant's Test)
Sacheen-class escort - 375 meters page 77
Hajen fleet Tender - 375 meters page 78
Majestic-class Heavy cruiser: 700 meters (page 78)
Defender-class Carrier - 700 meters, page 79.
Nebula (AKA Defender) class STar Destroyer: 1040 meters, page 80
Endurance-class Fleet Carrier: 1,040 meters (page 81)
Now, before you start bitching about hwo I don't have a clue about what I'm talking about, put some goddamn proof forward for once.
It says they have used smaller ships then the imperials. This contradicts known evidence of large capital ships. Thus it is likely the result of propaganda on the part of the Republic, and thus any claims that the New Class failed becasue we see bigger ships later and the New class didn't build big ships is unsupported.
Or it just demonstrates you havent checked your sources before shooting your mouth off. Given that I'm actually checking my sources before I post (aside from the fact that of the two of us, I am actually *posting* my evidence.), I'd think I'm doing a better job of presenting my argument than you are.
You keep claiming that the fact that we see large ships in different roles proves the New Class is a failure despite the fact that doing so is a false comparison.
Let me say this slowly so you can understand:
1.) The New Class program emphasized smaller ships that weren't larger than 1.25 kilometers in length at BEST. There is NO known ship that I am aware of attached to the new class project larger than this. If you have evidence of such a ship, please provide it.
2.) the New Class, as indicated by the CTD, was designed to replace the OLD New Republic fleet: which had the Mon Cal cruisers of varying classes, the Imperator STar Destroyers, and whatnot. The OLD fleet possesses many ships that are far larger than those the New Class possessed. They were both downsizing the fleet as a whole as well as building newer ships to replace the ones they got rid of. The end result being a smaller, more advanced fleet than what they originally had.
3.) HAD the New Class project been fully carried out as intended, the entirety of the NR Defense force would consist of those vessels alone, and none of the larger ships in the old fleet. Given what later novels indicated, in addition to the fact they DID build larger ships (and how badly the Fifth Fleet fared in the BFC) indicates that they did not in fact completely replace the old fleet AS THEY INTENDED.
Again, your logic is "The Navy bought an Aircraft Carrier, so it doesn't use submarines"
Ah, you love those strawmans, don't you?
You do realize it takes alot of fucking time to replace a huge fleet, don't you? Given the lack of military funding in times of peace and the extent of the fleet, it is entirley reasonable to expect to see older ships still around decades later. Hell the Empire used pre clone wars ships and they had a much more extensive ship building program.
They weren't *just* replacing their entire old fleet, but they were getting rid of ships as well (you do know what *Downsizing* means, don't you?) Aside from the fact you conveniently keep ignoring the downsizing aspect. You do remember that the Essential Chronology indicates they had years to build the new class ships right? (The project was comissioned just after the victory over the REsurrected Emperor, yet they couldn't build a few thousand ships in a matter of years? If we go by what is stated in the EC, it took a year minimum just to produce the Fifth fleet!
The NR as of the Black Fleet Crisis was comprised of 400 sentient species, 11,000 worlds (last to ref: Before the Storm, page 89), and apparently was intended to be protected by only a few thousand ships in five fleets (each comprising 5 battlegroups of 5 task forces of 20 ships) downsized, modern peacetime fleets. Given the time they had, KDY could easily have filled that order without much problem by themselves, much less bringing any other yards to bear. But in practice they did NOT replace the entirety of their old fleet, because we still see the old starships in use, which by defintion proves the New Class project as I presented it (a downsized, modern replacement fleet for the older, but larger, NR fleet.) was not successfully carried out.
And as I further pointed out, we KNOW that the ships in the New Class appear to have still been in use, at least by other races (IE the Diamala mentioned in Spectre of the Past), but if they did, they were not a substantial majortiy of the New Republic fleet. Given the leap from 11,000 worlds to over 250,000 in a matter of a few years, this is perfectly understandable. Even if we ignore the fact big ships (especially older ones) are still in use post BFC, the fact the New Republic increased in size by an order of magnitude in a few years itself dictates that the New Class program would have to be halted (IE they stopped downsizing efforts on their fleet.)
Face it, you and IP have yet to provide anymore proof that it failed then that there were large ships, and you only think that is a contradiction because a statement you know is wrong is the only thing that supports you.
I dont know aobut IP, but I've been posting proof (and accurate proof at that) . You've been addressing something that is apparently entirely different from the point I am making, judging by your total inability to address the points I am presenting or even recognizing what the fuck I am talking about. Try reading your opponent's response next time.
Shipsthat all serve in different roles then the ships of the New Class meaning there is no contradiction present.
Thanks for proving you've ignored everyhting I've been saying up to this point.
