Your ideal NR OOB?

[Illuminatus Primus]

*snip*.

There is no 8 km Executor.

There is, in the minds of WEG

It potentially could eradicate most or all official data on the "Super Star Destroyer" (I refuse to call them an Executor,) because length is related to likely combat capacity, which affects all its results in battle.

Exactly. This is why I suggest many EU Executors are underpar, underequipped, dilapidated, or their opponents (like the supposedly 1.2 km MC80B Mon Remonda vs. the ECS Iron Fist) are much stronger than previously thought.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

See I don't think you really need to go down the route of the Executor or Alleigance-class vessels for a couple reasons. First the Alleigance is probably already outclassed by the MC90 (hell the NR expected 3 of 'em to take on the 8mile version of an SSD in the Zsinj campaign). Secondly the Executor design is rather grossly expensive and requires getting KDY to work for you when their cooperation is iffy. Besides you have the Viscount and mediator designs coming online from the MonCal in the near future so they should more than fill the role of commandship and battleship/battlecruiser.

Well, Wilkens, IIRC you were somewhat pro-NR in ASVS, but if they (NR) really think that three Mon Cal cruisers could take the Iron Fist on, I'd say they are somewhat optimistic.

Among the official evidence, the Wraith Squadron novel arc is often used to show how good the MC series is. The place I'm sitting, however, it sure as heck doesn't look that way. I hadn't read Darksaber, so I don't know what happened there except MC90 Galactic Voyager held off 1 SSD and 17 VSD for an unknown period of time.

What ultimately happened in Iron Fist was how fast the SSD Iron Fist (a FIVE-mile, not EIGHT version of the SSD) smothered the MC80B Mon Remonda. It took only the space of three pages (P.299-P.302,) which is at best about three minutes long. In those sections (there were six, count them,) assuming everything was in chronological order:

1) Mon Remonda prepares to fire. Iron Fist is observed to open up. Mon Remonda gives order to return fire. At the same time...
2) Piggy warms up his fighter while...
3) The aerial battle continues, and the whole sequence takes about 1-2 minutes. At the END of it, Mon Remonda is observed to return fire...
4) Iron Fist focuses fire on Mon Remonda's engines - that took perhaps 1 minute to give the order and execute the shift.
5) Piggy finishes warm up and fires on Iron Fist shield projectors (actually he shot at the domes, but maybe there was some kind of backsurge.) He then tries to go for the other projector but fails.
6) Iron Fist has DISABLED Mon Remonda, THEN realizes the shields failed.

But we can crunch the sequence even closer. The events here seems chained in only loose chronological order - turn by turn (IIRC, Allston seem to imply he uses RPG methods in these games.) Certainly 6, for example, was not behind 5, but overlaps about half of 5. For that matter, one or two minutes is a LONG delay considering Mon Remonda should be ready to fire a long time ago. I can come up with a REALLY short sequence. I know pro-MCers would scream, but here's a possibility that actually came up:
2) Piggy continues to warm up his fighter while
3) The aerial battle continues. At the same time...
4) Zsinj sees Mon Remonda killing his escape vector. So he orders fire to DISABLE Mon Remonda. He's just ahead of...
1) Mon Remonda, which, prepares to fire with an order of similar length. But apparently Iron Fist got in first. Mon Remonda returns fire, leading to the...
3) ...last paragraph of this section. Observation of Mon Remonda returning fire at Iron Fist.
5) Piggy finishes warm up and blows up dome...
NEXT TURN
6) But before he could even bag the dome, Mon Remonda has already been disabled...
5) Piggy tries for the other dome, and gets bagged.

Wow, Great Survivability there (MC's supposed strong suit!) REVISED: Also, remember that Zsinj did say the Mon Calamari cruiser could hit him with more firepower than he could return. If that is so (reason is irrevelant,) the Mon Cal is being hit with at best the sum of its whole offensive strength, which is officially below an ISD's offensive strength. Failing within minutes to ISD-firepower or less is not exactly glorious or a proof of an Mon Cal's superior resillence You could insert delays, but they are not necessary.

In Solo Command, the fighters did most of the work (an affliction in X-Wing novels.) The first two engagements were short in the actual amount of time both Iron Fist and Mon Remonda were engaged. The third was mostly about Mon Remonda leading two other MC-80as attacking a damaged SSD's butt, where the weaponry is the weakest. No wonder it seems to be doing well

[CmdrWilkens]

First off you have the wrong novel. "Iron Fist" is the novel in which the Mon Remonda by itself attempts to delay the Iron Fist. In Solo Command there is a three MonCal task force along with a Neb-B and a transport sent against the vessel.

Beyond the fact that the Iron Fist (even at 5mi/8Km) still outweighs the MC80B class by several times my point is that 1 MC80B plus 2 MC80As were expected to be enough to fight the Iron Fist when they go after it in the asteroid field at the end of Solo Command. The action takes place right before the use of 'Second Death" so you might want to read up on that action as oppossed to the one from "Iron Fist" to understand what I'm trying point out

[CmdrWilkens]

*snip*.

There is no 8 km Executor.

Correction then 8km Super-class Star Destroyer.

[Connor MacLeod]

IIRC Reading Solo Command correctly, wasn't the Mon Remonda noticably more powerful/durable (in addition to carrying more fighters) than the other two (Mon Delindo, Mon KArren IIRC). That suggests it is in fact larger (probably same for MC90s which had 50% greater armament, twice the fighter capacity, more durable/agile than the MC80s AND carried warhead launchers.)

Also, I dont recall any source pointing to the other two star cruisers in Solo's Task Force being MC80A's.

[Connor MacLeod]

I might argue that the Mediator is more along the lines of the old Home One while Viscount being even larger.

Viscounts were larger than the Home One types, and the Mediators were half the size of the Viscounts.

[Connor MacLeod]

I was pretty certain that the Mon Karren was an MC90 though it could have been an MC80B

80Bs.

Where was that stated?

[Connor MacLeod]

Oh yes, and whether or not this migth factor in: The Knight Hammer did carry some thousands of TIE fighters and bombers.

[phongn]

Mon Remonda was an MC80B, the others were MC80As. WEG puts the MC80B @ 1200m length.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Oh yes, and whether or not this migth factor in: The Knight Hammer did carry some thousands of TIE fighters and bombers.

When did that happen? You mean KJA actually broke out of the WEG modus operandi? Quotes, dammit, quotes!

IN any case, if they were to be factored in, make sure they actually fired on MC90 Galactic Voyager.

[Connor MacLeod]

Mon Remonda was an MC80B, the others were MC80As. WEG puts the MC80B @ 1200m length.

What source gave the other two as MC80As, I dont recall either of Allston's latter two novels indicated this.

[phongn]

Crazedwraith indicated that they were of "more ordinary strength," so I took that to mean MC80A.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

What source gave the other two as MC80As, I dont recall either of Allston's latter two novels indicated this.

The classes were implied in the book. His FAQ clears any doubt up:
http://www.aaronallston.com/faqswars.html#solo

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

First off you have the wrong novel. "Iron Fist" is the novel in which the Mon Remonda by itself attempts to delay the Iron Fist. In Solo Command there is a three MonCal task force along with a Neb-B and a transport sent against the vessel.

Beyond the fact that the Iron Fist (even at 5mi/8Km) still outweighs the MC80B class by several times my point is that 1 MC80B plus 2 MC80As were expected to be enough to fight the Iron Fist when they go after it in the asteroid field at the end of Solo Command. The action takes place right before the use of 'Second Death" so you might want to read up on that action as oppossed to the one from "Iron Fist" to understand what I'm trying point out

...But just before going:

In Solo Command, the fighters did most of the work (an affliction in X-Wing novels.) The first two engagements were short in the actual amount of time both Iron Fist and Mon Remonda were engaged. The third was mostly about Mon Remonda leading two other MC-80as attacking a damaged SSD's butt, where the weaponry is the weakest. No wonder it seems to be doing well.

I'd Edit this to append more when I head to school. Just wanted you to know now I did read it, but since I decided to focus analysis on Iron Fist that last message, I just put my thoughts on Solo Command in a paragraph tacked on the end.

APPEND: We seem to be having a difference in method. I emphasize on what actually happened when the Mon Cal actually ran into the path of a SSD, and observe that it didn't seem to do well, even though it was supposed to be taking only its own offensive strength or less. I therefore conclude that a full-up Iron Fist choosing to engage rather than escape could probably off Mon Remonda (and her escorts in Solo Command.)

You, on the other hand, seem to take the fact they sent three Mon Cals (and there was a Star Destroyer) against the Butt of a badly harried and damaged Iron Fist and conclude they'd do well in a fair-up fight.

Personally, I think they were counting on the starfighters to help harass the ship and the asteroid field to avoid any sudden turns by Iron Fist. Then they were to stay in the soft ass and blast. The vindication of the idea wasn't really there - by the time they got there, Iron Fist was thinking more about running than blowing up Solo. We never would have known what would have happened if Iron Fist chose to get out of the asteroid field and turn on them.

[Connor MacLeod]

What source gave the other two as MC80As, I dont recall either of Allston's latter two novels indicated this.

The classes were implied in the book. His FAQ clears any doubt up:
http://www.aaronallston.com/faqswars.html#solo

They didn't say MC80A's, though

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

They didn't say MC80A's, though

Fine, they were plain converted Mon Cal 80s! Happy?

[Connor MacLeod]

They didn't say MC80A's, though

Fine, they were plain converted Mon Cal 80s! Happy?

Muchly so.

[Lord Pounder]

I'd always got them impression that Mon Remonda wasn't any kind og standard Mon Cal. I'd previously figured that Mon Remonda was a top line Mon Cal cruiser taken and upgraded to be the NR's SSD killer. IIRC the NR was apeshit about hunting down all SSD's active in the galaxy.

[phongn]

I'd always got them impression that Mon Remonda wasn't any kind og standard Mon Cal. I'd previously figured that Mon Remonda was a top line Mon Cal cruiser taken and upgraded to be the NR's SSD killer. IIRC the NR was apeshit about hunting down all SSD's active in the galaxy.

Mon Remonda was an MC80B, which was a very heavily-overbuilt design. That class had exceptionally strong shielding in addition to the typical Mon Calamari backup systems. Flight I carried no fighters (perhaps only a small hanger) but Flight II carried four squadrons and Flight III eight squadrons.

[Illuminatus Primus]

*snip*.

There is no 8 km Executor.

Correction then 8km Super-class Star Destroyer.

'

Which is a continuity error.

The Iron First belongs to the original generation of identical commandships including Lusankya and Executor, and as such is a 17.6 km-long Executor-class Star Commandship.

[Chris OFarrell]

There is no 8 km Executor.

Correction then 8km Super-class Star Destroyer.

'

Which is a continuity error.

The Iron First belongs to the original generation of identical commandships including Lusankya and Executor, and as such is a 17.6 km-long Executor-class Star Commandship.

Damn straight.

I'd also add that in Iron Fist, the Mon Remonda when engaging her DID lose her engines, but thats all that the Iron Fist managed to cripple. When they moved past each other at broadsides, the Mon Remonda was still fighting hard and blowing great big chunks out of the Iron Fist (as well as the Iron first blowing great big chunks out of Mon Remonda). But Zsnji did not disable them early in the battle, only their engines towards the end of the battle.

/My two cents.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The damage couldn't have been that deep--Mon Remonda couldn't possibly have been repaired that quickly.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Damn straight.

I'd also add that in Iron Fist, the Mon Remonda when engaging her DID lose her engines, but thats all that the Iron Fist managed to cripple. When they moved past each other at broadsides, the Mon Remonda was still fighting hard and blowing great big chunks out of the Iron Fist (as well as the Iron first blowing great big chunks out of Mon Remonda). But Zsnji did not disable them early in the battle, only their engines towards the end of the battle.

/My two cents.

Umm, you are making it sound like Iron Fist was engaging Mon Remonda all along those 10 or so pages. In fact, the real time of engagement (when they actually FIRED on each other) was very short and also close to the end.

I know that happened, but nobody really said they were even the same sized chunks, and Mon Remonda could only even penetrate significantly because Iron Fist had lost half its shield power. Before that, they could only "expend uselessly."

Mon Remonda also failed to cause any CRITICAL damage to Iron Fist, and she herself was left a cripple, bridge damaged, engines shot out. Hardly any contest of equality.

[Chris OFarrell]

Umm, you are making it sound like Iron Fist was engaging Mon Remonda all along those 10 or so pages. In fact, the real time of engagement (when they actually FIRED on each other) was very short and also close to the end.

It went for Seven pages. 299 to 305 inclusive. Novels are very hard to establsih times for but in that time period we had a Dogfight, a conversation, another conversation, another dogfight, another conversation, dogfight, Faces coversation/interldude, dogfight, withdrawl of TIE's to hanger, Iron fist pases Mon Remonda point blank, then enters hyperspace. Thats a significant time period.

I know that happened, but nobody really said they were even the same sized chunks,

It says both vessels were blowing chunks out of each other. If there was a great discrpency in size I think the author would have mentinoed it; hence its more logical to assume similar damage was being inflicted.

and Mon Remonda could only even penetrate significantly because Iron Fist had lost half its shield power.

We don't know that the Mon Remonda could not penetrate the shields. We see its openeing volley effects but thats about it. We don't see any other fire between the two of them until the final broadside sceen, thus your assertion is unproven.

Before that, they could only "expend uselessly."

No, the first volley expanded uselessly. To quote:

"Far ahead, past Iron Fist's bow, the tiny needle that was Mon Remonda opened up with laser barrages. They flared and were expanded uselessly against Iron Fist's shields."
-Iron Fist, page 300.

If the first volley had penetrated the full powered frontal shields of a Super, I would be horribly unimpressed with its shields.

Mon Remonda also failed to cause any CRITICAL damage to Iron Fist,

Iron Fist is a BLOODY BIG SHIP. Zsnji FLED the f*#(ing battle, abandoning his second SSD to death, a ship that could still be saved and a horribly valuable one at that. After loosing half his shield strength and with no other ships but a Frigate and a Starfighter carrier, he called the battle lost and ran. Rather then stay and finish Solo and save a second SSD, he RAN. That tells me he was VERY much in danger.

and she herself was left a cripple, bridge damaged, engines shot out. Hardly any contest of equality.

She was hardly crippled. The sublight enegines were shout out but repaired in a few hours which means it wasn't major damage. The bridge had some slight damage, nothing major. The rest of the ship was apparently working fine. While the ship was taking hull damage, its shields were still operable and given the massive redundency the Mon cals build into shields on their ships, its quite probable they would have come back up shortly. Or that they would have rolled the ship to present a fresh shield arc. We don't know what damage the Iron First took, we do know it took some so its impossible for you to claim it was not a constent of equity or that even the Mon Remonda wasn't winning the bombardment battle. Not that I am claming it was. Just that you don't have any evidence one way or the other.

[Chris OFarrell]

The damage couldn't have been that deep--Mon Remonda couldn't possibly have been repaired that quickly.

Indeed. The fact that they very shortly after set course for Courscant, where in Courtship they were able to move at sublight quite well in that almost turky shoot shows the engines wern't heavily damaged, just temp knocked out.