The Extended Universe

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2002-07-05 06:56pm

Crayz9000 wrote:
Rob Wilson wrote:Holy shit where did you get that crew number? it's 3k, not 300k! and what is the population of the SW galaxy? If each planet had only Earth-like numbers (average out between Coruscant and say Naboo) then we get 5,000,000,000 * 12,000,000 (people times planets) that gives us 6 E16 people. If we have an average of 17,000 personnel per ship (average out between 3 000 and 37000 for ISD) and we have 40 ships per planet then we get 8E11 personnel for the navy or 1/75000th of the available population.

Not too many really.
Minor nitpick- the Dark Force dreadnaughts required 2,000. A standard Rendili Dreadnaught required 16,000 crew. Only 200 Dark Force refits were done; the bulk of the Dreadnaughts in the Imperial Navy were of the standard variant.

Thanks.

So you use 26,000 as the base number for the average crew (16000 on dreadnaught, 37000 on ISD) and you get 1E13 personnel or 1/6000th the population of the SW galaxy, still not a real big number is it?

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-05 08:23pm

Sorry fokes I read the numbers wrong, I dug up Dark Force and yes it is 2k thanks to all the slave circuits through the ship(Guess I added a zero to many)

Your OVERestmating I think and I've got good Movie evidance to back me up

Source?
ROTJ
Simply Count the Star Destroyers and listen to the words this is the BIGGEST fleet gathing ever
(I'll get the exact words soon as my VCR gets back from the shop, I have DVD but saddly no Star-Wars DVD (Woops!)

Total of around 30 ships and its a huge amount of ships, biggest ever?
25,000 total Star Destroyers?
Million+ Inhabatied worlds?
The Fact ONE Destroyer is supposed to be able to DBZ a planet(I'll trust Darth Wong on this one)
After you do a BDZ on a planet its not worth much now is it?

Star Wars is based on Sector Fleets, 40 planets 10 ships(Just a guess but there is no real seeming contradiction of 1-3 ships on reaaaly imporant planets(Slow em down till the fleet gets there) and 5-20 Ships in the Sector Fleet ready to react to any of the planets
Find me some evidance of where it does not fit into this sort of model(We unforantly have to stay within EU due to no real big space battles being shown in movies)

David · Post by **David** » 2002-07-05 08:29pm

You're getting tactics confused with strategy. In the tactical sense, 200 dreadnaughts is a nice amount of ships to reinforce an individual sector fleet (which has been drained for five years) with. In the strategic sense, they aren't that important, but still a fair quantity.

That is a good point. In the grand skeme of things 200 dreds might not make a big difference. However, 200 dreds concentrated, and not tied down to defending things, are a formitable force.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-07-05 09:00pm

First a note, I got navy and starfleet mized up, it's the other way around.

Your OVERestmating I think and I've got good Movie evidance to back me up

I don't think I am overestimating at all, infact I am very generous(well not from the pro-wars side)

Source?
ROTJ
Simply Count the Star Destroyers and listen to the words this is the BIGGEST fleet gathing ever
(I'll get the exact words soon as my VCR gets back from the shop, I have DVD but saddly no Star-Wars DVD (Woops!)

And I don't see the relevance, a fleet gathering doesn't mean much, again remember that balance thingy?
The Empire didn't just have to defend against the rebellion, they had to keep the populace, the ENOURMOUS populace in check, they'd probably have to garrison nearly all planets, stormie numbers rise into the tens of billions now.

Total of around 30 ships and its a huge amount of ships, biggest ever?

Of such ships yes it is.
Again, the balance we previously talked about?

25,000 total Star Destroyers?

Yes, so? Thats just one class, one special class in that it's a jack of all trades kinda class, carrier, battleship, patroll, etc. one doesn't build many of those, but then again they were not part of the imperial navy either, they were the imperial starfleet, quite different as I have layed out, directly enforcing the Emperor's will and being the symbol of the empire.
People seems to get WAYY to hanged up on that 25k number, wich is for the navy, not starfleet.
I believe the separation of navy and starfleet has been explained.

Million+ Inhabatied worlds?

12 million of relative importance, several millions more inhabitated still.

The Fact ONE Destroyer is supposed to be able to DBZ a planet(I'll trust Darth Wong on this one)
After you do a BDZ on a planet its not worth much now is it?

I don't see the relevance.

Star Wars is based on Sector Fleets, 40 planets 10 ships(Just a guess but there is no real seeming contradiction of 1-3 ships on reaaaly imporant planets(Slow em down till the fleet gets there) and 5-20 Ships in the Sector Fleet ready to react to any of the planets

Thats not a very good system, plus your focusing on the ISD's only, as if they were some kind of measuring stick for the fleet, wich they are not.

And it's how the imperial navy worked, not the whole starfleet.

The very size of the Empire and SW in general speaks against this, doesn't make much sense either I am afraid to have such a small fleet.

Find me some evidance of where it does not fit into this sort of model(We unforantly have to stay within EU due to no real big space battles being shown in movies)

It doesn't fit with the SW galaxy and size and scope of it, it's quite unrealistic, and there is no way they are going to be able to properly controll all the systems under their controll without garrisoning most of the planets and keeping ships at most of them too, the starfleet wasn't some roving sector fleet that came to the aid of it's citizens.
With this configuration they could have easily overthrown the Empire.

Also, the Black Fleet Crisis, the NR's 5th fleet contained around 200 ships in a single fleet IIRC.
In Darksaber they had what? 70 Victory class star destroyers and 40 ISD's gathered?
In Star by Star the Vong brought an estimated 30,000 ships to attack Coruscant.

This is also a nice link:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Imper ... com&rnum=1

David · Post by **David** » 2002-07-05 09:05pm

All good points, but the EU does not help when it never mentions anything for the Imps except SDs.

You tags don't seem to be working to good

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2002-07-05 09:22pm

Mr Bean wrote:Your OVERestmating I think and I've got good Movie evidance to back me up

Source?
ROTJ
Simply Count the Star Destroyers and listen to the words this is the BIGGEST fleet gathing ever
(I'll get the exact words soon as my VCR gets back from the shop, I have DVD but saddly no Star-Wars DVD (Woops!)

I've just watched through the space battle a few time to be sure and there is *no* mention of the fleet size at all throughout it. I think your mis-remembering what was said.

David · Post by **David** » 2002-07-05 09:28pm

I don't have the movies on video so I can't check

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2002-07-05 09:37pm

David wrote:I don't have the movies on video so I can't check

Well, without checking through the *whole* movie (rather than just the spacebattle scene noted before) The only mention of Fleet sizes is when someone mentions "What of the reports of the Rebel fleet massing at Sullust?" and that's about it. I might just force myself to sit through the whole film again.... just to be on the safe side you understand.

David · Post by **David** » 2002-07-05 09:41pm

I wouldn't have to be forced to see the whole movie, I love them all. I wish I had it one DVD. I recently won one at a drawing.

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2002-07-05 09:46pm

David wrote:I wouldn't have to be forced to see the whole movie, I love them all. I wish I had it one DVD. I recently won one at a drawing.

A DVD player i take it?

And no I wouldn't really have to be forced, even if ROTJ was a pretty weak film in the Original trilogy.

David · Post by **David** » 2002-07-05 09:48pm

Yup, and TESB was the best man.

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2002-07-05 10:00pm

David wrote:Yup, and TESB was the best man.

Damned straight!

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-05 10:14pm

His Divine Shadow
If I'm wrong on this one I'll say I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure there are some lines in there somewhere about the biggest/entire yadda yada fleet

Like I said I can't check
I do however remeber though its not as telling some random crewmeber
yelling
Sir! The Imperial Fleet is coming out from behind the Moon

Though that can be taken anyway that one but I do remeber somthing about entire/biggest thing in there

As for it not making sense if once you BDZ a planet its useless
Thats just what I ment
Having 200 ships running around possibly able to BDZ would be a big threat I'd think
Even if you got 12million systems if one is turned into nuclear or otherwise ash people are gonna raise hell!

As for offical numbers I realy don't think its into the millions just on the simple fact you don't NEED that much to defend 12million systems

As I said elsewhere
How many Divisions are based along the US-Canadian Border to protect us?
You simply don't need divisions sitting around where there are not threats to protect aginst

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2002-07-05 10:35pm

Mr Bean wrote:His Divine Shadow
If I'm wrong on this one I'll say I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure there are some lines in there somewhere about the biggest/entire yadda yada fleet
That was me, who said you were wrong there.

Like I said I can't check
I do however remeber though its not as telling some random crewmeber
yelling
Sir! The Imperial Fleet is coming out from behind the Moon
Actually the Bridge officer says "Sir, enemy ships in sector green 7"
And that's it.

Though that can be taken anyway that one but I do remeber somthing about entire/biggest thing in there
Nope, none whatsoever. Sorry.

As for offical numbers I realy don't think its into the millions just on the simple fact you don't NEED that much to defend 12million systems

For the Empire to have only 0.001% of it's population in the Navy (which is about the level of most Western Navies) they would need 6E13 Personnel and that's enough for 2,307,692,307 ships with a crew of 26,000 apiece or 192 ships per planet, so each planet would have a lot of ships that would be bigger individually than the obselete Dreadnaughts, not really quaking in their boot i think.

Hell you could crew 1,621,621,621 ISD's with that and that gives you 135 ISD sized ships per planet.

David · Post by **David** » 2002-07-05 11:09pm

I think that the EU books and comics are refering to 1 million member worlds and 12 million systems. A system might just be a mining colony like Bespin, with a few thousand people, while a member world might have a population of a few billion people.

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2002-07-05 11:19pm

David wrote:I think that the EU books and comics are refering to 1 million member worlds and 12 million systems. A system might just be a mining colony like Bespin, with a few thousand people, while a member world might have a population of a few billion people.

Ok then lets use 5,000,000,000 * 1,000,000 = 5E15 people,

So 0.001% of that is 5E12, which gives you 192,307,693 ships with a crew of 26,000 (the average from my previous calcs) and having only 1,000,000 member worlds to guard they have 192 ships per planet.

Or for an ISD crew of 37,000 per ship 135,135,135 ships, or 135 per planet.
Still the same sort of area of ships to planets.

David · Post by **David** » 2002-07-05 11:22pm

True, but I'm not claiming there aren't that amny ships or that the Empire only has ISDs

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2002-07-05 11:37pm

David wrote:True, but I'm not claiming there aren't that amny ships or that the Empire only has ISDs

I know, I'm just showing how woefully too small the Eu estimates of ship strength are, in either the Imp navy or the NR navy.

David · Post by **David** » 2002-07-05 11:48pm

Yuppers, Mike goes ona nd on about it on his site.

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2002-07-06 05:24am

There are several things that are being missed regarding ship numbers:

-For every combat-ready ship in service, you're going to need several support and supply ships just to maintain them over the long-term.

-Following the death of the Emperor (and lasting at least up through the KJA trilogy), the galaxy was very fragmented, with ships, troops, and supplies being hoarded by sector warlords or governors throughout the galaxy. Neither the NR nor Thrawn's forces had access to even a significant portion of the Imperial navy. For all intents and purposes, the Navy had split up into dozens - hell, possibly hundreds - of rival factions, all vying for control.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-06 08:41am

And your forgeting somthing

OTHER BRANCHS

Stormys don't grow on Tree ya know they gotta be factor'd in too, Along with normal ground troops, Cops, Robbers, Special Ops guys

This is not Star Treck not everyone went the *Acadmy these are not ships full of officers you know

Enlisted gotta come from somewhere

And Rob Wilson, ok so you said I was wrong too, your not the only one saying I'm wrong

As for the movie dang I'm sure I had heard that somewhere

Oh well so much for that point now what where we talking about a few pages back?
We went back and forth on that one so long I lost track

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2002-07-06 01:37pm

Mr Bean wrote: And Rob Wilson, ok so you said I was wrong too, your not the only one saying I'm wrong

As for the movie dang I'm sure I had heard that somewhere

That's Ok, without the movies to hand you'd need to be a complete anorak to know every line off by heart. That's why I checked the films to make sure.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-07-07 12:42pm

If I'm wrong on this one I'll say I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure there are some lines in there somewhere about the biggest/entire yadda yada fleet

Got all SW movies on my PC for easy referencing, I didn't see that.

I do however remeber though its not as telling some random crewmeber yelling Sir! The Imperial Fleet is coming out from behind the Moon

Though that can be taken anyway that one but I do remeber somthing about entire/biggest thing in there

Sorry, I don't see it.

What I see mentioned about the fleet is that the Emperor said to move it to the far side of Endor.
The only reference to something being the best is the Emperor talking about his legion of stormies.

Having 200 ships running around possibly able to BDZ would be a big threat I'd think
Even if you got 12million systems if one is turned into nuclear or otherwise ash people are gonna raise hell!

But it wouldn't be enough at any rate, besides, even if the imperial service was voluntary, wich it probably is, they would get enough crewers, techs and officers galaxy wide to fuel a starfleet probably several times the size of the 10 million estimate.
Wich so little ships there would a million planets that could secretly and easily support the rebels in their war against the empire, but that never happened.

As for offical numbers I realy don't think its into the millions just on the simple fact you don't NEED that much to defend 12million systems

Actually, you probably do given the empires relations to it's citizens.
They need:
-Garrisons on planets, probably several garrisons for each planets major population centers in order to quell civil unrest and root out corrpution and traitors

-Fleets that are at almost every major planet in the galaxy at any time, wich requires a LARGE fleet patrolling the galaxy in order to stop rebel activity, or from starting.

It was mentioned somewhere that the Emperor increased the size of the fleet and army in order to controll his empire from itself.

As I said elsewhere
How many Divisions are based along the US-Canadian Border to protect us?
You simply don't need divisions sitting around where there are not threats to protect aginst

But there are threats everywhere, especially internal threats.

Other branches, I calculated a measily 65 billion stormies to put a 9k garrison on almost every planet, thats nothing really.

Even using the 5e12 number of Rob Wison that leaves 4.935.000.000.000 or nearly five trillion soldiers/officers/whatever.

And David, I'd say that the 12 million systems are those that are of some importance.

Given that the empire does have in another 51 million total planets, and one quote somehow singles out 12 million I think that means that there are 12 million larger or more important worlds, atleast 12 million out of 51 million worlds would have 5 billion people or more, Nar Shaadda has 75-90 billion people and it's a moon.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-07 01:21pm

Read above shadow I said oops on wrong lets move on

Now then

As I said before lemme repaste it

And your forgeting somthing

OTHER BRANCHS

Stormys don't grow on Tree ya know they gotta be factor'd in too, Along with normal ground troops, Cops, Robbers, Special Ops guys

This is not Star Treck not everyone went the *Acadmy these are not ships full of officers you know

Enlisted gotta come from somewhere

And Rob Wilson, ok so you said I was wrong too, your not the only one saying I'm wrong

As for the movie dang I'm sure I had heard that somewhere

Oh well so much for that point now what where we talking about a few pages back?
We went back and forth on that one so long I lost track

That was my last post read back through it Shadow

Anyway as I'm saying 1million ships might seem like
But they could have so much more!!
Is because you need Stormys
You need Cops
You need Special Ops
You need Air-Trafic Controlers

THIS AN"T START TRECK!
Not everyone from Bill Six-pack Plumber Third Class to Fleet Admerial Some Guy all went the The *Acadmy

Sith God · Post by **Sith God** » 2002-07-07 01:41pm

i would love the eu if they would return to reality, and keep in contrast with lucas. they need more research and more and more that makes practical sense. There are several things i dislike about the eu and i have even gone so far as to trash all my books and tech info concerning the eu universe i dont consider it part of the sw universe and if its our only source of sw to hold onto after sw movies are gone then god help us all