Can you measure the [effect of the] Force in newtons?

[Soontir C'boath]

Okay then. In this case you could say that Yoda is doing work on the neurons in his brain by telling the Force to keep levitating the X-Wing and hold it motionless; the Force itself may be using whatever amount of energy is necessary to generate the counterforce to gravity.

Now you're pulling things out of your ass.

But the Jedi isn't applying the force directly or the Jedi's brain and/or body would go splat! under 100,000 newtons.

I never said the body had any part, dipshit.

The Force is applying the force. The Jedi does not think, "I want to apply so-and-so many newtons upward to the starfighter." The Jedi thinks, "Up, X-Wing, up!" And the Force complies by applying the necessary force to follow the Jedi's mental command. It is thus possible that a Jedi would have more trouble lifting a larger object than the X-Wing even if it were less massive, because the object would be bigger and appear subjectively more difficult to move. Thus the Jedi could not command the Force to move the larger, less massive object as effectively as to move the smaller, more massive object.

This counters nothing, as it still doesn't stop us from measuring the applied force analytically.

Make as many scenarios as you want but as Nitram said it doesn't effect the ability to perform objective, analytical work and perform predictions.

Cyaround,
Jason

[Darth Wong]

The strength of your muscles are governed by physics; the strength of a Jedi's mind in the Force is not.

There are only two factors at work here: the Jedi's thoughts (which can be made reasonably consistent with training) and the Force itself. Unless you are arguing that the Force itself is totally random (which would make training rather difficult), there is no reason to assume such wide variability.

Math calculations and other strictly logical processes are not subjective, but many other mental phenomena are. Emotions, for one. And emotions are closely tied to the exercising of the Force. "Your anger has made you powerful," etc. We cannot assume that the exercising of the Force is not subjective just because it makes for nicer results.

Yet another non sequitur: "if emotion makes you more powerful, then the phenomenon must be subjective, not objective". People can be much stronger when adrenalin courses through their veins as a result of heightened emotions. Does this mean that physical strength is subjective too? Your logic is shit, as usual.

No one is disputing that Jedi can repeat their demonstrated feats. The problem is assuming they can also accomplish different feats which are physically equivalent but subjectively different. An example: Multiply 173 by 23 in your head. An easy if tedious problem. Now do the same calculation in base 17. Not so easy, eh?

Totally irrelevant unless you can show that there is some extra thought process to distinguish between the observed feats and claimed abilities of a Jedi Knight, such as base 10 to base 17 conversion.

You are performing the same mathematical calculation, but your subjective mental methods have changed and so has the difficulty of the problem.

So you are postulating that the Jedi must be doing something which is mentally unfamiliar in order to accomplish the feats attributed to them in these debates? Name such a feat which requires these extra mental gymnastics, and explain why it would require such extra mental gymnastics.

What's hard to grasp is why you think that anything which is caused by one particular organ of your body (the brain) must "logically" be immune to logic.

You seem not to have grasped the argument. The Jedi's ability to use the Force is not necessarily immune to logic, but extensions of it may not be predictable by extrapolating from physical measurements of the results the Jedi influence the Force to create.

That would depend on whether the extrapolation is reasonable. It must be handled on a case-by-case basis, and you must show why each one is not reasonable. Instead, you are obviously looking for some cheap excuse to issue a blanket dismissal of any Jedi-related prediction which is not a precise duplicate of an observed feat. "Yoda lifted an X-Wing, but he never lifted a TIE fighter, so we can't extrapolate!"

[Eframepilot]

"It's mental in nature, so we can't make any conclusions!"

You know, this pile of horseshit is irritable. Perhaps the assclowns reciting this mantra were asleep while Yoda lifted the X-wing. You know, where he makes it clear that belief has nothing to do with it, except as a limiter.

Bullshit. Yoda emphasized that belief was critical. The fact that Luke's preconceptions limited his abilities at all proves that there are subjective limitations.

Lie.

"Do or do not. There is no try." I don't see much in the way of 'It's all in your head' there.

Bullshit again. "No difference. Only different in your mind." According to Yoda, there is no difference in the mental effort needed to move a rock and a much more massive X-Wing. This suggests that the amount of mental effort necessary to move an object with the Force is not directly proportional to the object's mass! There is obviously a limit, but this limit is more likely based on the Jedi's mental ability to grasp the size of the object, not the physical mass of the object.

Even if the control of the Force is subjective, we can objectively measure the results, because the universe remains objective. The power that results has not shown enough variation to conclude that a fully trained Knight will have vastly different results from another.

I agree completely. The problem, as The Silence and I summarized very well, is extrapolating from these results to other situations that may be physically equivalent but are not "mentally" equivalent. We can measure the Force's results but we cannot quantify the Jedi's abilities, since the Jedi's interaction with the Force is a black box. We can still assume that Jedi can repeat previous stunts and even speculate on what their limitations are, but we cannot assume that their limitations are physical.

Ah yes, someone whose too stupid to realize that the existance of a black box does not remove the ability to perform objective, analytical work and perform predictions.

It is not the fact that the Force is a black box that forbids quantitative predictions. We can't assume that the Jedi's limitations are based on the physical properties of their targets, because the Jedi's mental interaction with the Force is based on subjective perceptions!

[Eframepilot]

The strength of your muscles are governed by physics; the strength of a Jedi's mind in the Force is not.

There are only two factors at work here: the Jedi's thoughts (which can be made reasonably consistent with training) and the Force itself. Unless you are arguing that the Force itself is totally random (which would make training rather difficult), there is no reason to assume such wide variability.

The Jedi's thoughts can be made reasonably consistent, but they will not necessarily be consistent with physics. Our own intuition often goes against physics, and accessing the Force is tied to intuition. Yoda claims that moving an X-Wing and a small rock is the same in the Force. Clearly the mental limitations of a Jedi's use of the Force will not be governed by mathematical relationships but rather the Jedi's own unmathematical perceptions. Thus quantitative predictions are meaningless. We can still estimate what a Jedi can do by what seems reasonable on a case-by-case basis, but these estimates will unfortunately not be quantitative.

Yet another non sequitur: "if emotion makes you more powerful, then the phenomenon must be subjective, not objective". People can be much stronger when adrenalin courses through their veins as a result of heightened emotions. Does this mean that physical strength is subjective too? Your logic is shit, as usual.

Physical strength is not subjective, but we cannot make a quantitative prediction of what, say, the Hulk could do at an anger level at which we have not measured his strength. We cannot quantify anger, so no quantitative prediction is possible.

So you are postulating that the Jedi must be doing something which is mentally unfamiliar in order to accomplish the feats attributed to them in these debates? Name such a feat which requires these extra mental gymnastics, and explain why it would require such extra mental gymnastics.

Say Luke can hold a maximum of 8 balls levitated with the Force, each weighing .01 kilograms. On the basis of this feat, we cannot predict he can hold aloft 16 balls each weighing .005 kilograms, even though levitating both sets requires the same amount of physical force, because the set of 16 is more mentally complicated than the set of 8.

[Darth Wong]

The Jedi's thoughts can be made reasonably consistent, but they will not necessarily be consistent with physics. Our own intuition often goes against physics, and accessing the Force is tied to intuition. Yoda claims that moving an X-Wing and a small rock is the same in the Force.

And yet we see that this is clearly not the case, because Luke can move the fighter only with great effort, while he could move the rock effortlessly. Tell me, if someone said "faith can move mountains", would you take him LITERALLY? There are many things that people say which are severely exaggerated, and Yoda's statement was clearly one of them. Did not Yoda himself apply far more effort to catch a huge pillar in AOTC than he did to pick up his walking stick? Open your eyes, for fuck's sake.

Clearly the mental limitations of a Jedi's use of the Force will not be governed by mathematical relationships but rather the Jedi's own unmathematical perceptions. Thus quantitative predictions are meaningless. We can still estimate what a Jedi can do by what seems reasonable on a case-by-case basis, but these estimates will unfortunately not be quantitative.

Lots of bullshit based on a literalist interpretation of a single line of dialogue even when it is in direct contradiction with observation

Yet another non sequitur: "if emotion makes you more powerful, then the phenomenon must be subjective, not objective". People can be much stronger when adrenalin courses through their veins as a result of heightened emotions. Does this mean that physical strength is subjective too? Your logic is shit, as usual.

Physical strength is not subjective, but we cannot make a quantitative prediction of what, say, the Hulk could do at an anger level at which we have not measured his strength. We cannot quantify anger, so no quantitative prediction is possible.

We don't have to. It has been established that it is within his limits, so he is capable of doing so. All he has to do is get angry enough. We don't need to quantify precisely how angry he has to get, because that is irrelevant to the question of whether he can do it.

Say Luke can hold a maximum of 8 balls levitated with the Force, each weighing .01 kilograms. On the basis of this feat, we cannot predict he can hold aloft 16 balls each weighing .005 kilograms, even though levitating both sets requires the same amount of physical force, because the set of 16 is more mentally complicated than the set of 8.

Good example; a large number of objects may be more difficult to mentally control than a small number of objects. Now find an example of an actual claim that has been made on behalf of Jedi, since I don't recall anyone claiming that Jedi can manipulate infinitely large numbers of objects at once.

[Eframepilot]

And yet we see that this is clearly not the case, because Luke can move the fighter only with great effort, while he could move the rock effortlessly.

Luke cannot move them with the same effort because he doesn't believe, according to Yoda. Luke is not a good example.

Tell me, if someone said "faith can move mountains", would you take him LITERALLY?

If he then moved a mountain with the power of his mind and was someone unlikely to lie about his abilities (like Yoda), I'd definitely try to reconcile his statement with observation instead of just tossing it out.

There are many things that people say which are severely exaggerated, and Yoda's statement was clearly one of them. Did not Yoda himself apply far more effort to catch a huge pillar in AOTC than he did to pick up his walking stick? Open your eyes, for fuck's sake.

Yoda also put far less effort into lifting the much bigger X-Wing than he did the pillar, and he didn't stop it in the most efficient way. If he had been thinking clearly, he could have just diverted its path to one side. Of course, he was exhausted from his battle with Dooku.

To reconcile Yoda's statements with observation, I propose that Jedi must alter their perceptions of more massive objects and "believe" that they can be moved. Immersed in the Force, there is little difference between moving a rock and an X-Wing. However, this mental state requires great concentration to maintain and Yoda was too tired to properly enter it to deal with the pillar easily. Of course, this is all "subjective bullshit" speculation and you are free to accept it or reject it in favor of your own, possibly better-founded speculation on how the Jedi's abilities work.

Good example; a large number of objects may be more difficult to mentally control than a small number of objects. Now find an example of an actual claim that has been made on behalf of Jedi, since I don't recall anyone claiming that Jedi can manipulate infinitely large numbers of objects at once.

Unfortunately I don't have any specific claims to challenge on this basis; I was interested in exploring the issue of quantitative predictions of a possibly subjective phenomenon generally. But I'm glad you see the point I was making, at least about the above example.

[SirNitram]

Bullshit again. "No difference. Only different in your mind." According to Yoda, there is no difference in the mental effort needed to move a rock and a much more massive X-Wing. This suggests that the amount of mental effort necessary to move an object with the Force is not directly proportional to the object's mass! There is obviously a limit, but this limit is more likely based on the Jedi's mental ability to grasp the size of the object, not the physical mass of the object.

Well whoop de shit. There's no extra effort on the mind; no duh. The mind isn't applying the force, otherwise it would be effected by Newton's laws of reaction. This does not, in any way, support your claims the Force is totally subjective. That you are forced to say 'This limit is more likely based' without any proof at all is rather telling.

It is not the fact that the Force is a black box that forbids quantitative predictions. We can't assume that the Jedi's limitations are based on the physical properties of their targets, because the Jedi's mental interaction with the Force is based on subjective perceptions!

My interaction with the keys is based on my perception of the keys. Does this mean it's impossible to objectively measure the accuracy with which I hit them? You are a fucking retard, and this argument really shows it.

[Eframepilot]

My interaction with the keys is based on my perception of the keys. Does this mean it's impossible to objectively measure the accuracy with which I hit them? You are a fucking retard, and this argument really shows it.

Of course we can objectively measure your typing accuracy, SirNitwit. But we can't predict how well you'd do on a keyboard with a different arrangement of keys if we haven't measured your performance on it based on your measured performance on the first keyboard! Are you really too thick to see this? The best Star Wars-related example is the levitating of different numbers of balls I gave to Darth Wong.

[Soontir C'boath]

Of course we can objectively measure your typing accuracy, SirNitwit. But we can't predict how well you'd do on a keyboard with a different arrangement of keys if we haven't measured your performance on it based on your measured performance on the first keyboard! Are you really too thick to see this? The best Star Wars-related example is the levitating of different numbers of balls I gave to Darth Wong.

So basically you are saying there are two mechanisms to the force... you are seriously pulling things out of your ass now.
Edit: Plus, that's a dumbass retort. We can measure your performance of the second keyboard...by playing the second fucking keyboard without having to play the first you took!~Jason

[SirNitram]

My interaction with the keys is based on my perception of the keys. Does this mean it's impossible to objectively measure the accuracy with which I hit them? You are a fucking retard, and this argument really shows it.

Of course we can objectively measure your typing accuracy, SirNitwit. But we can't predict how well you'd do on a keyboard with a different arrangement of keys if we haven't measured your performance on it based on your measured performance on the first keyboard! Are you really too thick to see this? The best Star Wars-related example is the levitating of different numbers of balls I gave to Darth Wong.

Look, Efuckup, you have no evidence for your pontifications and proclamations. Most of us live in the real world, where we do not presume that there is no link between situations. I'm getting very tired of demanding you back up your ridiculous, unfounded assumptions.

[Darth Wong]

Luke cannot move them with the same effort because he doesn't believe, according to Yoda. Luke is not a good example.

You are still assuming that Yoda's statement is totally literal. In fact, you are using that assumption in order to justify a particular interpretation of a scene which you use as evidence that Yoda's statement is totally literal. You do know that "logic" and "circular" are words that should not be seen together, right?

Tell me, if someone said "faith can move mountains", would you take him LITERALLY?

If he then moved a mountain with the power of his mind and was someone unlikely to lie about his abilities (like Yoda), I'd definitely try to reconcile his statement with observation instead of just tossing it out.

Find me an example of a Jedi moving a mountain. Can't? Then your point is bullshit.

There are many things that people say which are severely exaggerated, and Yoda's statement was clearly one of them. Did not Yoda himself apply far more effort to catch a huge pillar in AOTC than he did to pick up his walking stick? Open your eyes, for fuck's sake.

Yoda also put far less effort into lifting the much bigger X-Wing than he did the pillar,

You're an idiot; that pillar was most likely far heavier than the X-Wing. Aircraft and spacecraft are generally light. Massive support pillars and static industrial components are generally very heavy. I've seen plastic injection moulds for taillights which outweigh a Humvee by a factor of three, for fuck's sake.

and he didn't stop it in the most efficient way. If he had been thinking clearly, he could have just diverted its path to one side.

Irrelevant; in both cases, he was simply pushing something up against the pull of gravity.

Of course, he was exhausted from his battle with Dooku.

Yet he had no problem picking up his walking stick with the Force, did he? Yet again, your bullshit literalism is contradicted by observation. Your entire argument, in fact, is predicated upon the assumption that Yoda's teachings must be taken literally. You've turned him into a fucking fundamentalist religion, for fuck's sake, and it's perfectly obvious why you're doing it.

To reconcile Yoda's statements with observation, I propose that Jedi must alter their perceptions of more massive objects and "believe" that they can be moved. Immersed in the Force, there is little difference between moving a rock and an X-Wing. However, this mental state requires great concentration to maintain and Yoda was too tired to properly enter it to deal with the pillar easily. Of course, this is all "subjective bullshit" speculation and you are free to accept it or reject it in favor of your own, possibly better-founded speculation on how the Jedi's abilities work.

Yes, it is all subjective bullshit speculation. Find me one direct observation (literalist fundie interpretation of a line of dialogue doesn't count) which supports it. Try to think like a rational human being for a change.

Good example; a large number of objects may be more difficult to mentally control than a small number of objects. Now find an example of an actual claim that has been made on behalf of Jedi, since I don't recall anyone claiming that Jedi can manipulate infinitely large numbers of objects at once.

Unfortunately I don't have any specific claims to challenge on this basis; I was interested in exploring the issue of quantitative predictions of a possibly subjective phenomenon generally. But I'm glad you see the point I was making, at least about the above example.

Yes. Unfortunately, that point also has nothing to do with any claim that has ever been made on behalf of Jedi. You claim that people routinely make unreasonable "extrapolations" to situations which are not analogous, but when challenged to provide an example, you make one up which no one has ever proposed. Try again.

[Eframepilot]

Luke cannot move them with the same effort because he doesn't believe, according to Yoda. Luke is not a good example.

You are still assuming that Yoda's statement is totally literal. In fact, you are using that assumption in order to justify a particular interpretation of a scene which you use as evidence that Yoda's statement is totally literal. You do know that "logic" and "circular" are words that should not be seen together, right?

Here your reasoning is circular. You brought up the example of Luke's failure as evidence on your side. You want to assume Yoda's statement is not literal in order to use Luke's failure as evidence that Yoda's statement is not literal. I admit the example does not show that Yoda's statement should be given consideration, but neither does it help you.

You're an idiot; that pillar was most likely far heavier than the X-Wing. Aircraft and spacecraft are generally light. Massive support pillars and static industrial components are generally very heavy. I've seen plastic injection moulds for taillights which outweigh a Humvee by a factor of three, for fuck's sake.

Ha! Good point, and one I considered myself, though I didn't think you'd make this argument after SirNitram complained that an X-Wing is far more massive than a metric ton earlier in this thread. I agree with you, though; a lighter X-Wing explains why it stayed buoyant in the swamp for several weeks. Conceeded.

Yes, it is all subjective bullshit speculation. Find me one direct observation (literalist fundie interpretation of a line of dialogue doesn't count) which supports it.

I disagree that Yoda's line of dialogue should be dismissed so easily. If it were a respected SW physicist discussing principles of hyperspace physics, we would attempt to reconcile the scientist's statements with observation of hyperspace phenomena before discarding it, and I think Yoda's statements on the Force should be given similar merit. But I suspect we will have to agree to disagree on this.

I'll rephrase this entire discussion. Can we correctly propose a law, "The amount of mental effort necessary to cause the Force to move an object at any acceleration is directly proportional to the object's mass and to the magnitude of acceleration," from our observations? Note that this law would not hold if it were physical strength being talked about; there is no significant mental difference in lifting a 5-pound weight and a 10-pound weight, but at the limit of physical strength, forcing one's muscles to lift an additional 5 pounds is much harder.

Yes. Unfortunately, that point also has nothing to do with any claim that has ever been made on behalf of Jedi. You claim that people routinely make unreasonable "extrapolations" to situations which are not analogous, but when challenged to provide an example, you make one up which no one has ever proposed. Try again.

Well. Here's one similar to proposals by Connor MacLeod. Anakin Skywalker can easily throw huge boulders around to crush entire Tusken Raider huts, therefore he can just as easily throw ordinary human bodies far, far harder. Assume a boulder is 1000 kg, and Anakin can accelerate it to 10 m/s in a second. Then applying the same impulse to a 100 kg person, Anakin will accelerate him to 100 m/s which will prove fatal in any environment not covered in padding. Can Anakin do this?

[SirNitram]

Efuckedupprimate, you do not acheive victory by strawmanning your opponent's arguments into circular logic, claiming that someone is unreasonable for the most retarded weight estimate I've seen lately(Hello, retard, the Joint Strike Fighter is still over ten tons. Try and get it in the right order of magnitude), and never offering up a single shred of evidence(Ooops! I forgot, you can't, because there is no evidence in your favor!).

Christ you're a sore loser. Get your ass handed to you in Fantasy, so you come back here to whine, bitch, and dishonestly distort everything in an attempt to desperately justify your retarded behavior. I hope to the Gods you're lying about being a physicist. You'll set mankind back several years.

[Soontir C'boath]

I'll rephrase this entire discussion. Can we correctly propose a law, "The amount of mental effort necessary to cause the Force to move an object at any acceleration is directly proportional to the object's mass and to the magnitude of acceleration," from our observations? Note that this law would not hold if it were physical strength being talked about; there is no significant mental difference in lifting a 5-pound weight and a 10-pound weight, but at the limit of physical strength, forcing one's muscles to lift an additional 5 pounds is much harder.

Did Yoda knew of the mass of the X-Wing when he lifted it? No, your arguement which uses mass is flawed.

Well. Here's one similar to proposals by Connor MacLeod. Anakin Skywalker can easily throw huge boulders around to crush entire Tusken Raider huts, therefore he can just as easily throw ordinary human bodies far, far harder. Assume a boulder is 1000 kg, and Anakin can accelerate it to 10 m/s in a second. Then applying the same impulse to a 100 kg person, Anakin will accelerate him to 100 m/s which will prove fatal in any environment not covered in padding. Can Anakin do this?

No, because you are talking about a person. There has never been a mention in which a living being has being lifted/thrown. Your scenario is flawed.

Cyaround,
Jason

[Connor MacLeod]

No, because you are talking about a person. There has never been a mention in which a living being has being lifted/thrown. Your scenario is flawed.

Cyaround,
Jason

Actually there are cases of force shoves being used against people (Anakin did against a tusken in the AOTC novelization, for one.) Obi-Wan used one against Jango in the novel as well. (Luke also used a force shove against Nek battle dogs and Palpatine both in Dark Empire.) Dooku also did that to Anakin in AOTC.

[Connor MacLeod]

Well. Here's one similar to proposals by Connor MacLeod. Anakin Skywalker can easily throw huge boulders around to crush entire Tusken Raider huts, therefore he can just as easily throw ordinary human bodies far, far harder. Assume a boulder is 1000 kg, and Anakin can accelerate it to 10 m/s in a second. Then applying the same impulse to a 100 kg person, Anakin will accelerate him to 100 m/s which will prove fatal in any environment not covered in padding. Can Anakin do this?

Actually I brought up the boulder-tossing in regrads to your claims about Anakin and Obi-Wan breaking the chains in the arena. The analogy I used with Anakin was the force exerted in throwing battle droids around vs the force involved in tossing a person around. As I recall, you said that a human being would be tossed the same speed/distance as the battle droids were.

Edit: Of course, if I did make that statement, I wouldn't mind it being provided.

[Soontir C'boath]

Yes but those are shoves like what Darth Maul did to OBI in TPM Edit: It's pushing.~Jason

[Connor MacLeod]

Yes but those are shoves like what Darth Maul did to OBI in TPM Edit: It's pushing.~Jason

And? He's talking about taking the force exerted on accelerating a boulder and applying it to a person.

Further, throwing a person in fact involves lifting them as well as propelling them.

Its little different from accelerating/decelerating their own bodies or performing Force leaps, for that matter.

[Soontir C'boath]

And? He's talking about taking the force exerted on accelerating a boulder and applying it to a person.

That's being thrown, last I check, being pushed and thrown are two different things.

Further, throwing a person in fact involves lifting them as well as propelling them.

Yes and how does that stop what I am saying?

Cyaround,
Jason

[Connor MacLeod]

That's being thrown, last I check, being pushed and thrown are two different things.

All my examples involve lift/throws which is what was being discussed, not *pushes*. Much like the force-shoves used on Battle droids in TPM.

Yes and how does that stop what I am saying?

Cyaround,
Jason

you originally said:

No, because you are talking about a person. There has never been a mention in which a living being has being lifted/thrown. Your scenario is flawed.

The Dark Empire AND AOTC examples I cited initially were ALL examples of living things being thrown/lifted about by the Force.

[Soontir C'boath]

If they were then I conceed, but shove is not a very very good term to be using as it is associated to pushing. Edit: And, since you described it from the novel, I'd like to see the quote.~Jason

[Connor MacLeod]

If they were then I conceed, but shove is not a very very good term to be using as it is associated to pushing. Edit: And, since you described it from the novel, I'd like to see the quote.~Jason

I would have imagined that the context would be clear from the references I mentioned. I was specifically referring to incidents of "lifting/throwing."

As for the quote, which one?

If its about Dooku, one can simply see that in the movie.

[Eframepilot]

Well. Here's one similar to proposals by Connor MacLeod. Anakin Skywalker can easily throw huge boulders around to crush entire Tusken Raider huts, therefore he can just as easily throw ordinary human bodies far, far harder. Assume a boulder is 1000 kg, and Anakin can accelerate it to 10 m/s in a second. Then applying the same impulse to a 100 kg person, Anakin will accelerate him to 100 m/s which will prove fatal in any environment not covered in padding. Can Anakin do this?

Actually I brought up the boulder-tossing in regrads to your claims about Anakin and Obi-Wan breaking the chains in the arena. The analogy I used with Anakin was the force exerted in throwing battle droids around vs the force involved in tossing a person around. As I recall, you said that a human being would be tossed the same speed/distance as the battle droids were.

Edit: Of course, if I did make that statement, I wouldn't mind it being provided.

I used the example of boulder-tossing for the calculation since battle-droid mass is unknown in light of the Jar-Jar-dragging incident. The boulders thus serve as a more definite benchmark for Anakin's abilities.

[Soontir C'boath]

As for the quote, which one?

The one with the tusken raider and Jango.

If its about Dooku, one can simply see that in the movie.

Can't access it now for some reason, but iirc, it was the force lightning that threw Anakin.~Jason

[Eframepilot]

I'll rephrase this entire discussion. Can we correctly propose a law, "The amount of mental effort necessary to cause the Force to move an object at any acceleration is directly proportional to the object's mass and to the magnitude of acceleration," from our observations? Note that this law would not hold if it were physical strength being talked about; there is no significant mental difference in lifting a 5-pound weight and a 10-pound weight, but at the limit of physical strength, forcing one's muscles to lift an additional 5 pounds is much harder.

Did Yoda knew of the mass of the X-Wing when he lifted it? No, your arguement which uses mass is flawed.

That is precisely what I have been trying to argue this entire thread. Writing such a law as the one I proposed is unreasonable. If someone thinks it is a strawman, please write your own better one.

Well. Here's one similar to proposals by Connor MacLeod. Anakin Skywalker can easily throw huge boulders around to crush entire Tusken Raider huts, therefore he can just as easily throw ordinary human bodies far, far harder. Assume a boulder is 1000 kg, and Anakin can accelerate it to 10 m/s in a second. Then applying the same impulse to a 100 kg person, Anakin will accelerate him to 100 m/s which will prove fatal in any environment not covered in padding. Can Anakin do this?

No, because you are talking about a person. There has never been a mention in which a living being has being lifted/thrown. Your scenario is flawed.

Cyaround,
Jason[/quote]
You are assuming that there would be a difference in lifting/throwing a living being and a nonliving object, which is what I have been arguing for. We seem to be in agreement.