Worst EU Travesty?

[Crown]

The Ysalamiri were not there to stop the 'superman affect' for Zahn. They were an integral part of Thrawn's overall strategy. Zahn has said this many times, I have posted this many times, and if people actually read the trilogy it would be evident, many times.

Then why did Zahn add the "anti-force" zone effect? I'm sorry if I speak out of ignorance, and I mean no offence.

Fully grown, mature, and sane close in 1-2 weeks vs the 1 year minimum of the Clone Wars era clones.

[Stravo]

The Ysalamiri were not there to stop the 'superman affect' for Zahn. They were an integral part of Thrawn's overall strategy. Zahn has said this many times, I have posted this many times, and if people actually read the trilogy it would be evident, many times.

Then why did Zahn add the "anti-force" zone effect? I'm sorry if I speak out of ignorance, and I mean no offence.

And Rogue 9, I said that it was the most apparent in the duology, where Thrawn's reputation was used as a weapon against the NR. I never denied Thrawn was a genius (reread my post), I said his reputation was his main weapon. And that is true of the Duology at least.

Without the Ysalmari Thrawn could not grow his clone army quickly enough. It stopped them from going mad.

[Stofsk]

Fair enough. My chief complaint centred around the Ysalamiri being used as a "force-retardant," although I do concede their main use was strategic. Were the Ysalamiri used anywhere else in the EU, or just the Zahn books? ie were they used as a weapon against jedi in novels written by anyone who wasn't Zahn?

[JME2]

Fair enough. My chief complaint centred around the Ysalamiri being used as a "force-retardant," although I do concede their main use was strategic. Were the Ysalamiri used anywhere else in the EU, or just the Zahn books? ie were they used as a weapon against jedi in novels written by anyone who wasn't Zahn?

Ysalamiri have also appeared in 'The New Rebellion', 'Vision of the Future', and 'Star by Star'.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Pellaeon didn't have Thrawn's genius and he knew it. Ackbar would have handed him his ass had he stayed and he knew it. Running was the best thing for him and he knew it. Knowing your limitations is the first step to success and he knew them. Getting his command killed would not have helped matters.

I cannot really agree. In fact, his retreat was the worst part of the whole Zahn trilogy for me.

Ackbar is good, very good in fact. But he isn't uber or anything. At least the depictions I know of him isn't. He gives good orders, but he's no "magician" like Thrawn. It's worth trying.

Remember that it took Lando just to tell him if he doesn't want to get blown up by the Death Star, maybe they should hug the Imp fleet close and use them as cover.

If Pellaeon can't win there, it is hard to see him winning ANYWHERE. (By the way, apparently he really doesn't win anywhere for the rest of the Civil War.) So he might as well throw the dice and do his best while in a good setup given to him, to achieve one victory at least.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Anyway, KJA lost me quite early in his abominable Jedi Academy Trilogy, I don't know what concept or idea he introduced which sucked - I just think he sucks, period. Stackpole shat me with his constant fighter-wankfest. I love X-wings too, but no way 12 of them and a couple of freighters are gonna finish an Executor battleship. Allston's books are apparently really good, according to my friend - much better than Stackpole. Also, Star By Star is considered to be the best EU novel by far, even if it has the Yuuzhon Vong in it. The BFC is all right, but not Star Wars. He should have changed the characters names and it would have been alright.

Anyway that's all - I better submit this before my computer reboots again.

Allston is better. In battle writing, "Solo Command" was one of the epitomes of combat in SW, less technical than BFC but overall on a rough par. It emphasized the use of such things as COMBINED arms, and actually went into some detail - people like Zahn try to say their characters used tactics that were so great that he can't even imagine them in outline himself, so the entire first battle (which should have been a great scene) was compressed to an opening and "An hour later, it was all over."

I had the misfortune to only HEAR about KJA rather than reading it. Same with most of the authors like Vonda whatever and others that are in the Absolute Shit List.

I don't mind Ysalamiri, Universal Energy Cages, and even Vong that are apparently tuned to different parts of the Force. It gives the Force limits, and that's good. Except for that super-man factor being limited, it is nice to think that one day, the Force can be scientifically explained and controlled in the SW galaxy - UEC suggests it is possible to artificially interfere with Force access, suggesting they do know something about the nature of the Force.

I do mind minimalism (virtually universal outside the comics) and fighter-wanking (Stackpole.)

[2000AD]

so blasters bounce off (they would blow him apart still as we see in the movies)

Isn't IG88 only seen on the Executor bridge and in the Bespin junk room?

[2000AD]

Fair enough. My chief complaint centred around the Ysalamiri being used as a "force-retardant," although I do concede their main use was strategic. Were the Ysalamiri used anywhere else in the EU, or just the Zahn books? ie were they used as a weapon against jedi in novels written by anyone who wasn't Zahn?

Ysalamiri have also appeared in 'The New Rebellion', 'Vision of the Future', and 'Star by Star'.

Vision of the Future was Zahn. They also appeared in "I, Jedi" (Stackpole).

[JME2]

Fair enough. My chief complaint centred around the Ysalamiri being used as a "force-retardant," although I do concede their main use was strategic. Were the Ysalamiri used anywhere else in the EU, or just the Zahn books? ie were they used as a weapon against jedi in novels written by anyone who wasn't Zahn?

Ysalamiri have also appeared in 'The New Rebellion', 'Vision of the Future', and 'Star by Star'.

Vision of the Future was Zahn. They also appeared in "I, Jedi" (Stackpole).

My bad. With the exception of the NJO Dark Tide duology, I won't touch Stackpole's stuff.

[Howedar]

so blasters bounce off (they would blow him apart still as we see in the movies)

Isn't IG88 only seen on the Executor bridge and in the Bespin junk room?

I think Ender means that we know that mirrored surfaces do not affect blaster shots.

[Smiling Bandit]

I've come to the conclusion that Thrawn had access to extensive psych profiles and a spy network, and all the talk about artwork was simply his way of BS'n and establishing his style and rep. After all, if your enemies are half-convinced that you can foretell their actions by looking at their societies' sculpture they won't be watching for spies or changing commanders.

And I hope that NR falls, the Remnant formally disbands, and they come together to make a new, new Republic with Pallaeon posted as the new Chancellor. The NR is just incompetant. Which, oddly, is fairly realistic. Communist guerillas became China's new ruling elite, but they often weren't really prepared for it.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

...tries one of his "art" estimates, I always tend to feel nervous for him.

Take the very first time. I just couldn't help but think what would happen to his strategy if there was another species as XO or something.

"Belay that, sir. That's just a Marg Sabl, a historic maneuver. It looks random, but if we counter like this (blah, blah) it'd fail for sure."

[Techno_Union]

1. KJA saying the Knighthammer was only 8km.

2. The Knighthammer being destroyed so easily, and by one person

3. An entire Imperial Fleet being flung out of system by some steroid half jedi freaks.(notice all of this so far is KJA)

4. Byss being destroyed. Some of you may mind that but I am infuriated by that because that was an awesome planet.

5. R2D2 ramming the Eclipse II into the Galaxy Gun. He is a droid, he should not be able to do that.

6. Very annoyed by the stupid Imperial Warlords who do not know how to fight.

7. Every Imperial superweaon being destroyed. I just like most of them.

[Rogue 9]

Well, as to the Knight Hammer, having multiple squadrons of TIE Bombers with full payloads and topped off fuel tanks all blow up a couple compartments away from the engine room will do that to you. That is a lot of ordnance and fuel.

[Illuminatus Primus]

And I hope that NR falls, the Remnant formally disbands, and they come together to make a new, new Republic with Pallaeon posted as the new Chancellor. The NR is just incompetant. Which, oddly, is fairly realistic. Communist guerillas became China's new ruling elite, but they often weren't really prepared for it.

Pelleaon's a weakling, docile commander who prefers to obey orders. He's only marginally competant, and now positively geriatric.

[Techno_Union]

Well, as to the Knight Hammer, having multiple squadrons of TIE Bombers with full payloads and topped off fuel tanks all blow up a couple compartments away from the engine room will do that to you. That is a lot of ordnance and fuel.

I found it a cheap way to kill off a ship like that, that kind of vessel needs to go out fighting an armada full of huge ships, not rebel mon cals. And why did it not take out more ships when it was engaging the rebel fleet at yavin IV?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Well, as to the Knight Hammer, having multiple squadrons of TIE Bombers with full payloads and topped off fuel tanks all blow up a couple compartments away from the engine room will do that to you. That is a lot of ordnance and fuel.

I found it a cheap way to kill off a ship like that, that kind of vessel needs to go out fighting an armada full of huge ships, not rebel mon cals. And why did it not take out more ships when it was engaging the rebel fleet at yavin IV?

Most Imperials are killed cheaply. DS1 fell to a tiny 2m wide exhaust port. DS2 fell to stupidity and arrogance. The World Devastators have to have a stupid Master Control Program. Thrawn fell to a crummy Noghri assassin. And so on.

The fundamental reason is the set-up. The greater the disparity between the "bad guys" and the "good guys", the more you have to give the good guys cop-outs.

If you insist on having 100 bad guys on each good guy, you would have to make the 100 bad guys incompetent enough so the one good guy comes off winning.

It's the set-up, the environment they have to work in.

[Techno_Union]

Well, as to the Knight Hammer, having multiple squadrons of TIE Bombers with full payloads and topped off fuel tanks all blow up a couple compartments away from the engine room will do that to you. That is a lot of ordnance and fuel.

I found it a cheap way to kill off a ship like that, that kind of vessel needs to go out fighting an armada full of huge ships, not rebel mon cals. And why did it not take out more ships when it was engaging the rebel fleet at yavin IV?

Most Imperials are killed cheaply. DS1 fell to a tiny 2m wide exhaust port. DS2 fell to stupidity and arrogance. The World Devastators have to have a stupid Master Control Program. Thrawn fell to a crummy Noghri assassin. And so on.

The fundamental reason is the set-up. The greater the disparity between the "bad guys" and the "good guys", the more you have to give the good guys cop-outs.

If you insist on having 100 bad guys on each good guy, you would have to make the 100 bad guys incompetent enough so the one good guy comes off winning.

It's the set-up, the environment they have to work in.

All true, I guess I am waiting for a good Imperial vistory. But it may never happen.

[Stormbringer]

Most Imperials are killed cheaply. DS1 fell to a tiny 2m wide exhaust port.

Which was done only after the best space dogfight ever. And it was not really some cheap victory since it came as the pay off for the whole movie.

DS2 fell to stupidity and arrogance.

More arrogance than anything. And the fact is, it works remarkably well for the characters.

And hey, the Hun Empire was brought down by a nose bleed.

The World Devastators have to have a stupid Master Control Program.

It was half way to decent, but still sucky.

Thrawn fell to a crummy Noghri assassin. And so on.

But again, it was something that was built up in a fairly realistic fashion. It's was not a cop out nor the result of spectacular stupidity, just the casual arrogance that works with the characters invovled.

The fundamental reason is the set-up. The greater the disparity between the "bad guys" and the "good guys", the more you have to give the good guys cop-outs.

If you insist on having 100 bad guys on each good guy, you would have to make the 100 bad guys incompetent enough so the one good guy comes off winning.

It's the set-up, the environment they have to work in.

True, but it's possible to bring down a big scary threat through means other than a bad cop out and utter retardation on the part of the villians. That's no fun and really ruins the story. A proper ending can allow the hero to triumph over the seemingly invincible villian.

[Stormbringer]

Pelleaon's a weakling, docile commander who prefers to obey orders. He's only marginally competant, and now positively geriatric.

I take it he went south in the NJO? Because from what I've seen he's not docile or a weakling. He took orders because he wasn't a rebel. That's called loyalty and it's hardly a bad thing. As for being a weakling, he would have been eaten alive by the Moffs or Warlords had he truly been a weakling.

He's just aware that he's no brilliant commander and so doesn't try to be. Pelleaon never demonstrated any real incompetence that I'm aware of, but never a stroke of genuis either. He always struck me as simply being the Bush to Thrawn's Hornblower; solid, reliable, and loyal.

[Kuja]

Fair enough. My chief complaint centred around the Ysalamiri being used as a "force-retardant," although I do concede their main use was strategic. Were the Ysalamiri used anywhere else in the EU, or just the Zahn books? ie were they used as a weapon against jedi in novels written by anyone who wasn't Zahn?

Ysalamiri have also appeared in 'The New Rebellion', 'Vision of the Future', and 'Star by Star'.

And 'I, Jedi'


And did anyone notice that, in Darksaber, KJA seems to have forgotten that all TIE pilots wear fully-sealed flight suits?

Which means:

1. Callista should've suffocated on her way up to the KH.

2. there was no reason to empty the bay for a 'radiation leak' (IIRC).


In addition, Darksaber's got:

Crix Madine dying while trying to destroy a useless superweapon (fucking weak).

Typical Officious Imperial Dickhead (KJA loves 'em).

An SSD unable to destroy a massive pyramid with vitually no defenses.

Jabba the Hutt having the access codes for the ultimae classified Imperial files (horseshit).

And so on.

[Stormbringer]

1. Callista should've suffocated on her way up to the KH.

Possibly, there seems to be at least some variation on TIE fighter design.

2. there was no reason to empty the bay for a 'radiation leak' (IIRC).

Depends on the amount and type. At the very least you're not going to want to stand around in it. And of course all the other people would still want to high tail it out of there.



Unclean, I just defended KJA! ACK, UNCLEEEEEEAAAAAAANNNNN!

[nightmare]

Hmm, there's a lot to chose between, but my vote goes to the Vong. I simply detest uber-bioships.

[Robert Treder]

[Pellaeon] took orders because he wasn't a rebel. That's called loyalty and it's hardly a bad thing.

He isn't even very good at following orders. He may be loyal to Thrawn, but he sure isn't loyal to His Imperial Majesty. Pellaeon deserted Palpatine's Empire when he issued an illegal retreat order at Endor.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Most Imperials are killed cheaply. DS1 fell to a tiny 2m wide exhaust port.

Which was done only after the best space dogfight ever. And it was not really some cheap victory since it came as the pay off for the whole movie.

It fell to an inadequate and unenthusiastic CAP effort. Even presuming the DS has no weaknesses, Tarkin should have launched his fighters to eradicate the Rebels immediately. Hell, he should have had a fucking fighter screen up since he entered the system! It doesn't look good for the Death Star if it can't swat a few fighters, does it?

DS2 fell to stupidity and arrogance.

More arrogance than anything. And the fact is, it works remarkably well for the characters.[/quote]

There's a recent thread with a whole list of things the Empire could have easily done to win. None of them were done.

But again, it was something that was built up in a fairly realistic fashion. It's was not a cop out nor the result of spectacular stupidity, just the casual arrogance that works with the characters invovled.

Well, if you wanted it to look a little bit less of a cop-out, maybe you have scheduled it for AFTER the Empire's victorious battle. This not only looks like a cop out for the New Republic, but also for Zahn, since it saves him from having to write any more of the battle

True, but it's possible to bring down a big scary threat through means other than a bad cop out and utter retardation on the part of the villians. That's no fun and really ruins the story. A proper ending can allow the hero to triumph over the seemingly invincible villian.

KJA of course is worse than average, but I'm trying to point out the Rebels generally live on low-probability successes given to them by authors.