Yoda in the prequels

[vakundok]

Oh boy!
Galvatron:
You said that you dislike the prequels because they show Yoda as a warrior and you would prefer him to be on Dagobah (teaching) maybe hundreds of years before ANH.
I said it would be ineffective for him to communicate with the other jedis, but you suggested it would not. You said that in your version he would be capable to communicate with other jedis through the force or holonet.
1. The emperor did not use telepathy to communicate with Vader, he ordered a holonet report wich required some preparations even for a command ship.
2. Yoda did not contacted Luke through the force on Hoth. Ben was required to send him to Dagobah.
These are from the OT, so either telepathy, or longe range communication appear to be limited in the OT, just like in the prequels.

Other thing: Yoda's house on Dagobah was not even capable to support Luke, he had to sleep outside. (source: TESB novelisation)

About the Clone Wars. It is EU and as such it is official. (It is interesting that you denied the EU explanation and wanted to judge (about the prequels) by canon, but you are now relying on an EU source where Yoda acted very differently from the prequels.)

Jedis (and Yoda among them) are not warriors in the prequels. I wrote it last time. Maybe the best example for this is in TPM when a rodian said Anakin that he had cheated on the race and Anakin attacked him. Qui-Gonn stopped Anakin and showed him that fighting cannot really solve problems.

About semantics: If you drive a mouse into a corner, it will possibly attack you. (I saw with my own eyes that a mouse attacked a young cat in such a situation.) Does it make the mouse a predator? It is not about semantics, it is about whether you base your opinion on behaviour in usual or special situations.

[Galvatron]

There are very few Jedi who are comparable in power to Yoda.

The prequels seem to indicate that there are very few Jedi period. Dr. Saxton estimates that the "total population of Coruscant must be at least of the order of several thousand trillion (1,000,000,000,000,000), and certainly no less than several hundred trillion." Only 10,000 Jedi out of a galactic population of countless trillions? Oh well...

And the prequels show him as a field commander, not a front line combatant.

Granted, but don't you subscribe to Lucasfilm's policy that the Clone Wars cartoons are official? They show Yoda as a front-line combatant, post-AOTC.

And the prequels don't spoil it because they come after the OT. That's why they're called "prequels".

Huh?? "Pre" is the opposite of "after." If they were meant to come after the OT, they'd be called sequels.

If they were meant to be seen first they would be the "Original Trilogy". The episode numbers are for chronological reference only.

Not according to Lucas.

A passing reference to him made by Obi-Wan or some other Jedi would be enough to establish that's he's out there somewhere, so his introduction in TESB doesn't have to seem as contrived.

Which shatters Yoda's character for two reasons:

1. He has willfully sat out the rise of Palpatine and the Clone Wars. Disregarding the well-being of the Republic he was sworn to defend and adopting a "fuck the galaxy" metality.

As of AOTC, the Jedi still don't know that Palpatine is Darth Sidious so why would Yoda come out of retirement to stop him? For all they know, Palpatine's a swell guy.

2. His reputation as a "great warrior" remains unsubstantiated. I have already demonstrated that Yoda was certainly capable of fulfilling a military role during the Clone Wars. The Jedi Purge forced him into hiding. The OT demonstrates that he's biding his time to depose Palpatine. Regardless of his reluctance to train Luke.

We're going in circles now.

[Darth Raptor]

The prequels seem to indicate that there are very few Jedi period. Dr. Saxton estimates that the "total population of Coruscant must be at least of the order of several thousand trillion (1,000,000,000,000,000), and certainly no less than several hundred trillion." Only 10,000 Jedi out of a galactic population of countless trillions? Oh well...

Oh well... What? I never disputed the rather common sense fact that Jedi are rare. What does that ever in a million years have to do with my assertion that Yoda is the strongest?

Granted, but don't you subscribe to Lucasfilm's policy that the Clone Wars cartoons are official? They show Yoda as a front-line combatant, post-AOTC.

Truth be told, I haven't seen the cartoons. Since they're official, they're to be disregarded when and where they conflict with canon.

Huh?? "Pre" is the opposite of "after." If they were meant to come after the OT, they'd be called sequels.

This entire thread revolves around your inability to understand that the prequels are meant to be seen after the OT. If this wasn't the case, they would have been made first! In fact every prequel I have ever seen has been executed in a manner that the story does not work unless you've seen the original. I've never seen anything that should be watched in order of happening because prequels always spoil the fuck out of the original.

Not according to Lucas.

Who also said the middle episodes had the strongest story IIRC. He contradicts himself a lot. What matters is canon, not what he says about canon, but we're delving into the realm of the uber-abstract and will be here forever.

As of AOTC, the Jedi still don't know that Palpatine is Darth Sidious so why would Yoda come out of retirement to stop him? For all they know, Palpatine's a swell guy.

There's a giant gaping hole called "Episode III" here. Yoda already shows serious suspicion of Palpatine in AOTC anyway.

We're going in circles now.

Ain't it fun?

[Galvatron]

You said that you dislike the prequels because they show Yoda as a warrior and you would prefer him to be on Dagobah (teaching) maybe hundreds of years before ANH.

Basically, yes.

I said it would be ineffective for him to communicate with the other jedis, but you suggested it would not. You said that in your version he would be capable to communicate with other jedis through the force or holonet.

Of course, this is all assuming that coordination between the Jedi is even necessary. Personally, I wouldn't have portrayed the Jedi as the highly organized and centralized team of "superheroes" that the prequels do. I'd have them travel alone and settle conflicts by themselves or, if the need arises, with the assistance of local military and law enforcement.

Other thing: Yoda's house on Dagobah was not even capable to support Luke, he had to sleep outside. (source: TESB novelisation)

I seem to remember that too. Although, Luke did bring camping equipment with him.

Besides, I'm not suggesting that Yoda provided comfortable accommodations to his trainees. I would suggest that training on Dagobah was intended to be less like a vacation and more like boot camp.

About the Clone Wars. It is EU and as such it is official. (It is interesting that you denied the EU explanation and wanted to judge (about the prequels) by canon, but you are now relying on an EU source where Yoda acted very differently from the prequels.)

I use the EU in discussions where the "other side" is defending it as an official extension of Lucas' vision. I personally don't feel obligated to stick to it, but you apparently do. That's why I cite examples from it. Kinda like an atheist quoting bible passages in a debate against Christians.

Jedis (and Yoda among them) are not warriors in the prequels. I wrote it last time. Maybe the best example for this is in TPM when a rodian said Anakin that he had cheated on the race and Anakin attacked him. Qui-Gonn stopped Anakin and showed him that fighting cannot really solve problems.

What does that prove? Bushido values temperence and morality too. Does that mean Samurai aren't warriors?

Regardless, I'm not suggesting that the Jedi are grunts nor am I trying to paint Yoda as a "great warrior." I use the phrase facetiously.

[Galvatron]

The prequels seem to indicate that there are very few Jedi period. Dr. Saxton estimates that the "total population of Coruscant must be at least of the order of several thousand trillion (1,000,000,000,000,000), and certainly no less than several hundred trillion." Only 10,000 Jedi out of a galactic population of countless trillions? Oh well...

Oh well... What? I never disputed the rather common sense fact that Jedi are rare. What does that ever in a million years have to do with my assertion that Yoda is the strongest?

Nothing. I'm just venting about the minimalism in regard to the extreme rarity of the Jedi. If there were even as many as a million of them, there would still only be, at best, one for every "member world" in the GFFA.

Granted, but don't you subscribe to Lucasfilm's policy that the Clone Wars cartoons are official? They show Yoda as a front-line combatant, post-AOTC.

Truth be told, I haven't seen the cartoons. Since they're official, they're to be disregarded when and where they conflict with canon.

And they don't conflict, AFAIK. Which means Yoda is officially a front-line combatant during the Clone Wars.

This entire thread revolves around your inability to understand that the prequels are meant to be seen after the OT.

Oh, I understand it just fine. I simply disagree with it.

If this wasn't the case, they would have been made first!

I disagree. Lucas originally set out to make one movie, not an entire saga. He wrote one big script that encompassed an early version of what would later evolve into Episodes IV through VI. The backstory from whence the prequels came didn't exist in any form other than a jumble of ideas in his head back then.

In fact every prequel I have ever seen has been executed in a manner that the story does not work unless you've seen the original. I've never seen anything that should be watched in order of happening because prequels always spoil the fuck out of the original.

And I could say the reverse since the OT spoils the fuck out of the prequels. Because of the OT, we know that Anakin turns to the dark side and becomes Darth Vader. Because of the OT, we know that Palpatine is evil and becomes the Emperor. Because of the OT, we know that the Jedi will be exterminated. Because of the OT, we know that Anakin has two children who become the good guys later in the story.

I daresay the OT spoils the prequels far more than the prequels spoil the OT.

Not according to Lucas.

Who also said the middle episodes had the strongest story IIRC. He contradicts himself a lot.

He does indeed. How does that change what he said as being the final, definitive word on how the Star Wars movies are now intended to be seen?

What matters is canon, not what he says about canon,

In this particular tangent, what's canon is irrelevant since we're talking about the order in which the story is supposed to be told. Therefore, the intentions of the storyteller are of paramount relevance.

but we're delving into the realm of the uber-abstract and will be here forever

It doesn't seem so abstract since this notion that "the OT is meant to be seen first" is the basis for much of your position in this discussion.

As of AOTC, the Jedi still don't know that Palpatine is Darth Sidious so why would Yoda come out of retirement to stop him? For all they know, Palpatine's a swell guy.

There's a giant gaping hole called "Episode III" here. Yoda already shows serious suspicion of Palpatine in AOTC anyway.

That doesn't matter. You're the one saying that Yoda would be taking a "fuck the galaxy" attitude by not resurfacing to lend a hand against the forces of evil, but since we still don't know the circumstances under which the Jedi purge takes place, it's a little premature to say that.

For all we know, Palpatine's ascendancy to emperor is viewed as a good thing and the Jedi may fall without knowing who their enemy is until it's too late. In which case, the best place for Yoda would be on Dagobah where he's out of sight, out of mind, and forgotten by the Empire.

[Darth Raptor]

Nothing. I'm just venting about the minimalism in regard to the extreme rarity of the Jedi. If there were even as many as a million of them, there would still only be, at best, one for every "member world" in the GFFA.

Their extreme scarcity is implied in the OT, which only gives the Purge as an explaination for their dissappearance. To have the Old Republic have numerous Jedi and leave it to Vader to kill most of them doesn't make sense. And the low number of Jedi is why they need to be an organized body, and why it doesn't make sense for their most powerful and experienced Master to sit out a war.

And they don't conflict, AFAIK. Which means Yoda is officially a front-line combatant during the Clone Wars.

Okay then, I'm wrong. So he fights the battles too. Judging by his incredible power, it makes sense. The point is, Yoda is not to old to be bereft of military value.

Oh, I understand it just fine. I simply disagree with it.

So then why not make the prequels first?

I disagree. Lucas originally set out to make one movie, not an entire saga. He wrote one big script that encompassed an early version of what would later evolve into Episodes IV through VI. The backstory from whence the prequels came didn't exist in any form other than a jumble of ideas in his head back then.

Right there. The prequels are a backstory. They elaborate on the OT. I should also note that what Lucas intended to do at any point in time is irrelevant. He originally intended to do a lot of things.

And I could say the reverse since the OT spoils the fuck out of the prequels. Because of the OT, we know that Anakin turns to the dark side and becomes Darth Vader. Because of the OT, we know that Palpatine is evil and becomes the Emperor. Because of the OT, we know that the Jedi will be exterminated. Because of the OT, we know that Anakin has two children who become the good guys later in the story.

I daresay the OT spoils the prequels far more than the prequels spoil the OT.

Not necessarily. The entire point of the prequels is to show the how and why behind all that. We know Palpatine transformed the Republic into the Empire, let's see it. We know Vader falls to the Dark Side, let's see it. etc. etc... Vague references to events in the OT do not spoil the prequels, it's still possible to have a decent plot when you know how it's eventually going to turn out.

It doesn't seem so abstract since this notion that "the OT is meant to be seen first" is the basis for much of your position in this discussion.

Your irrational opposition to it is abstract. The OT came out in the 80s. The prequels are coming out now. Unless Lucas intended for people to not watch his first three movies there's little reason in the universe to adopt your position.

That doesn't matter. You're the one saying that Yoda would be taking a "fuck the galaxy" attitude by not resurfacing to lend a hand against the forces of evil, but since we still don't know the circumstances under which the Jedi purge takes place, it's a little premature to say that.

1. Yoda is already suspicious of Palpatine.
2. The Jedi are already aware of Sith influence the government.
3. Yoda is a viable soldier/commander clear until TESB.

My hypothesis is backed up by evidence. Any alternative must adopt a "Well, just wait and see!" apprach.

For all we know, Palpatine's ascendancy to emperor is viewed as a good thing and the Jedi may fall without knowing who their enemy is until it's too late. In which case, the best place for Yoda would be on Dagobah where he's out of sight, out of mind, and forgotten by the Empire.

The Jedi would never tolerate the ascension of an autocrat. It's also very uncharacteristic of them to ignore the subtleties of Galactic politics. Also I can't see Jedi going into hiding because they can't solve a conspiracy and want to save their ass.

[Galvatron]

Their extreme scarcity is implied in the OT,

I think I missed that part. Do you have any specific examples in mind? Can you refresh my memory?

which only gives the Purge as an explaination for their dissappearance. To have the Old Republic have numerous Jedi and leave it to Vader to kill most of them doesn't make sense.

Vader helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi. He didn't do it alone. Besides, in a previous reply you suggested that the Empire would simply BDZ a planet to kill a Jedi.

And the low number of Jedi is why they need to be an organized body, and why it doesn't make sense for their most powerful and experienced Master to sit out a war.

I'll withhold commenting until I see the OT evidence that the Jedi were so few. Otherwise, you're just using the prequels to defend the prequels...

And they don't conflict, AFAIK. Which means Yoda is officially a front-line combatant during the Clone Wars.

Okay then, I'm wrong. So he fights the battles too. Judging by his incredible power, it makes sense. The point is, Yoda is not to old to be bereft of military value.

Again, you're using EU to defend the prequels. I'm the "OT purist" here, remember? I only cited examples from the cartoon because somewhere along the way I was accused of misrepresenting prequel-era Yoda as a front-line combatant. The cartoon officially supports what I said, which you've conceded, but that doesn't mean I'd portray him that way.

Oh, I understand it just fine. I simply disagree with it.

So then why not make the prequels first?

I already answered that. How many different ways do I need to explain the evolution of the Star Wars storyline? See below...

I disagree. Lucas originally set out to make one movie, not an entire saga. He wrote one big script that encompassed an early version of what would later evolve into Episodes IV through VI. The backstory from whence the prequels came didn't exist in any form other than a jumble of ideas in his head back then.

Right there. The prequels are a backstory. They elaborate on the OT.

I'm not sure what your point is. The fact that the OT was thought up first, created first and seen by all of us first doesn't change the fact that the story is intended by its creator to be told in the order that the episodes are numbered.

I should also note that what Lucas intended to do at any point in time is irrelevant. He originally intended to do a lot of things.

It's only irrelevant to you. What Lucas says doesn't suddenly become irrelevant to the rest of us simply because you say so.

Not necessarily. The entire point of the prequels is to show the how and why behind all that. We know Palpatine transformed the Republic into the Empire, let's see it. We know Vader falls to the Dark Side, let's see it. etc. etc... Vague references to events in the OT do not spoil the prequels, it's still possible to have a decent plot when you know how it's eventually going to turn out.

That just means the OT was so compelling that there's a demand to see the backstory in spite of the fact that we're already spoiled for it. How does that change the fact that the OT spoils the prequels more than the prequels spoil the OT? It doesn't.

It doesn't seem so abstract since this notion that "the OT is meant to be seen first" is the basis for much of your position in this discussion.

Your irrational opposition to it is abstract. The OT came out in the 80s. The prequels are coming out now. Unless Lucas intended for people to not watch his first three movies there's little reason in the universe to adopt your position.

I know when the OT came out. That's irrelevant. George Lucas is the storyteller. Like it or not, he decides in what order the movies are officially intended to seen, not you.

That doesn't matter. You're the one saying that Yoda would be taking a "fuck the galaxy" attitude by not resurfacing to lend a hand against the forces of evil, but since we still don't know the circumstances under which the Jedi purge takes place, it's a little premature to say that.

1. Yoda is already suspicious of Palpatine.
2. The Jedi are already aware of Sith influence the government.
3. Yoda is a viable soldier/commander clear until TESB.

My hypothesis is backed up by evidence. Any alternative must adopt a "Well, just wait and see!" apprach.

Granted. However, in my fantasy world where these prequels don't exist, I still see no compelling reason for Yoda to be around during that era. Using the prequels as "evidence" against my viewpoint won't work because I'm the "OT purist."

::thanks Spanky for giving me that label::

For all we know, Palpatine's ascendancy to emperor is viewed as a good thing and the Jedi may fall without knowing who their enemy is until it's too late. In which case, the best place for Yoda would be on Dagobah where he's out of sight, out of mind, and forgotten by the Empire.

The Jedi would never tolerate the ascension of an autocrat.

Autocrat? The Senate was still around as of ANH and was still powerful enough that the military feared their growing support for the rebellion. It wasn't until the Death Star was fully operational that Palpatine finally had the stones to assume total control of the Empire.

It's also very uncharacteristic of them to ignore the subtleties of Galactic politics. Also I can't see Jedi going into hiding because they can't solve a conspiracy and want to save their ass.

Why not? Yoda and Obi-Wan endured decades of seclusion knowing full well that opposing the Empire would be suicide.

[Mr Flibble]

I'm not sure what your point is. The fact that the OT was thought up first, created first and seen by all of us first doesn't change the fact that the story is intended by its creator to be told in the order that the episodes are numbered.

Actually think the prequels themselves show that Lucas intends for them to be watched second. Things like Obi Wan's "You'll be the death of me" don't have much point otherwise. The prequals seem to be structured in such a way that they expect the viewer to have sen the OT. Just because they are set before the OT, does not mean that they were intended to be seen first. To really appreciate the prequels you have to have seen the OT first. Story tellers often tell parts of their story in non chronilogical order, as it is a useful way of not giving away information that the creator doesn't want you to know in the first place.

[Galvatron]

Actually think the prequels themselves show that Lucas intends for them to be watched second. Things like Obi Wan's "You'll be the death of me" don't have much point otherwise. The prequals seem to be structured in such a way that they expect the viewer to have sen the OT. Just because they are set before the OT, does not mean that they were intended to be seen first. To really appreciate the prequels you have to have seen the OT first. Story tellers often tell parts of their story in non chronilogical order, as it is a useful way of not giving away information that the creator doesn't want you to know in the first place.

"You'll be the death of me" can also be considered foreshadowing, a common storytelling device.

The rest I've already addressed in previous posts...

[Stofsk]

Actually think the prequels themselves show that Lucas intends for them to be watched second. Things like Obi Wan's "You'll be the death of me" don't have much point otherwise. The prequals seem to be structured in such a way that they expect the viewer to have sen the OT. Just because they are set before the OT, does not mean that they were intended to be seen first. To really appreciate the prequels you have to have seen the OT first. Story tellers often tell parts of their story in non chronilogical order, as it is a useful way of not giving away information that the creator doesn't want you to know in the first place.

How do you explain Lucas's statements that they're meant to be seen first, then? (he says as much in the TPM commentaries - uh, near the start - probably in the first half hour - if you want a specific time I'll look for you)

Of course, if the PTs were meant to be seen first then I guess they would have been written first, and filmed first etc. Why couldn't he have done sequels? Uhg. Honestly this whole thing is giving me a headache...

It probably doesn't matter. I would watch the OT first anyway, because too much of the "wow!" moments are spoiled if you watch the PT first, then the OT. There are, I am not shitting you, people who have not watched or know anything about Star Wars - if you had the opportunity to educate them on it, would you sit them down to watch the prequels or the originals first?

[Spanky The Dolphin]

I see it as chronologically they are meant to be seen in numerical order, but narratively, they should be seen in order of production.

But that's just what I personally feel.

[Darth Raptor]

I think I missed that part. Do you have any specific examples in mind? Can you refresh my memory?

Actually no, none that would convince you. It was just the impression I got. Since Vader played a significant role in bringing them all down I didn't think there were trillions of them. But if you want to trivialize his role in the Purge that's up to you. War of unfounded opinions.

Vader helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi. He didn't do it alone. Besides, in a previous reply you suggested that the Empire would simply BDZ a planet to kill a Jedi.

See above.

Again, you're using EU to defend the prequels. I'm the "OT purist" here, remember? I only cited examples from the cartoon because somewhere along the way I was accused of misrepresenting prequel-era Yoda as a front-line combatant. The cartoon officially supports what I said, which you've conceded, but that doesn't mean I'd portray him that way.

Fine.

I'm not sure what your point is. The fact that the OT was thought up first, created first and seen by all of us first doesn't change the fact that the story is intended by its creator to be told in the order that the episodes are numbered.

So we were supposed to stay home when IV-VI were in the theaters, buy the videos when they came out and sit on them until the prequels were available? Come on.

It's only irrelevant to you. What Lucas says doesn't suddenly become irrelevant to the rest of us simply because you say so.

What matters is what he did, not what he said he intended to do. The execution of the movies screams for the OT to be seen before the prequels.

That just means the OT was so compelling that there's a demand to see the backstory in spite of the fact that we're already spoiled for it. How does that change the fact that the OT spoils the prequels more than the prequels spoil the OT? It doesn't.

War of opinions...

I know when the OT came out. That's irrelevant. George Lucas is the storyteller. Like it or not, he decides in what order the movies are officially intended to seen, not you.

Lucas must have planned to market the movie to a race of time travelers.

Granted. However, in my fantasy world where these prequels don't exist, I still see no compelling reason for Yoda to be around during that era. Using the prequels as "evidence" against my viewpoint won't work because I'm the "OT purist."

Round and round we go.

1. Yoda instructed Obi-Wan, who was a general in the Clone Wars.
2. Yoda shows no signs of weakness besides his rather abrupt death in ROTJ.
3. Because Yoda was obviously an active Jedi in the era directly leading up to the war, it doesn't make sense for him to sit it out. For the reasons I keep repeating.

Autocrat? The Senate was still around as of ANH and was still powerful enough that the military feared their growing support for the rebellion. It wasn't until the Death Star was fully operational that Palpatine finally had the stones to assume total control of the Empire.

The Senate was already defunct and the Jedi were already wiped out. The beaurocracy of the Imperial Senate was Palpatine's means of controlling the Empire. He had control of the Empire. The Death Star only made switching over to the Tarkin Doctrine a viable alternative.
He WAS the Emperor, and that position was not one of an impotent figurehead.

Why not? Yoda and Obi-Wan endured decades of seclusion knowing full well that opposing the Empire would be suicide.

It is logical to assume their defeat forced them into hiding. Adopting the notion that they sat out the rise of the New Order doesn't make much sense. They plan and plot against all odds after the fact, why would they ever want to do that after remaining idle while they had a chance? And they actively oppose the Empire in the OT, BTW.

[Sarevok]

It probably doesn't matter. I would watch the OT first anyway, because too much of the "wow!" moments are spoiled if you watch the PT first, then the OT. There are, I am not shitting you, people who have not watched or know anything about Star Wars - if you had the opportunity to educate them on it, would you sit them down to watch the prequels or the originals first?

Episode 1 was the first Star Wars movie I watched. It certainly did not ruin any fun for me. I never knew which episode 1 characters were Darth Vader or Palpatine. Of course this may not apply to other people since I watch movies just for the sake of enternainment and not technical analysis.

[Galvatron]

I'm not sure what your point is. The fact that the OT was thought up first, created first and seen by all of us first doesn't change the fact that the story is intended by its creator to be told in the order that the episodes are numbered.

So we were supposed to stay home when IV-VI were in the theaters, buy the videos when they came out and sit on them until the prequels were available? Come on.

Of course not. That's not what I'm suggesting. You're fixated on the production timeline and it's nothing but a red herring.

I originally said that I think of the story structure chronologically when I level my criticisms against it because that's how Lucas intends it to be viewed.

This bafflingly popular notion that it's not meant to be seen the way Lucas himself intends sounds like nothing more than a prequel-apologist cop-out.

It's only irrelevant to you. What Lucas says doesn't suddenly become irrelevant to the rest of us simply because you say so.

What matters is what he did, not what he said he intended to do. The execution of the movies screams for the OT to be seen before the prequels.

His intentions do matter because that's what I'm holding him accountable for. As I said before, when someone makes a set of prequels to an existing set of movies and has the balls to attach episode numbers to them, I expect the narrative structure to follow accordingly especially when it's their stated intention that we view the story as such.

Autocrat? The Senate was still around as of ANH and was still powerful enough that the military feared their growing support for the rebellion. It wasn't until the Death Star was fully operational that Palpatine finally had the stones to assume total control of the Empire.

The Senate was already defunct and the Jedi were already wiped out. The beaurocracy of the Imperial Senate was Palpatine's means of controlling the Empire. He had control of the Empire. The Death Star only made switching over to the Tarkin Doctrine a viable alternative.
He WAS the Emperor, and that position was not one of an impotent figurehead.

The Senate was defunct?

"Holding her is dangerous. If word of this gets out it could generate sympathy for the rebellion in the Senate."

"Send a distress signal and then inform the Senate that all aboard were killed."

Vader himself knew better than to publicly take Princess Leia as his prisoner so he gave the order to fake her death and lie to the Senate.

"The Rebel Alliance will continue to gain the support of the Imperial Senate..."

General Tagge seemed very concerned about this.

"The Imperial Senate will no longer be of any concern to us."

No longer, as in, they were of concern before the Emperor had the Death Star as his trump card.

I'm not suggesting that the Emperor was a powerless figurehead, but he evidently had to tread carefully for the duration of his reign prior to ANH because the Senate still retained enough power and influence to threaten him.

Which brings me back to the point I inferred above: Palpatine was not an autocrat before ANH. Yes, his title changed and his political powers no doubt increased over time, but we have canon evidence that he did not become the uncontested ruler of the galaxy until the Death Star was fully operational.

What's funny is that his trump card was destroyed soon afterward. I can imagine that a number of member worlds who just had their political representation illegally dissolved hurled a collective "fuck you" at the Emperor, became openly defiant, and pooled their considerable resources into supporting the rebellion while hiding safely behind the very same planetary defenses that the Death Star was designed to overwhelm.

Why not? Yoda and Obi-Wan endured decades of seclusion knowing full well that opposing the Empire would be suicide.

It is logical to assume their defeat forced them into hiding. Adopting the notion that they sat out the rise of the New Order doesn't make much sense. They plan and plot against all odds after the fact, why would they ever want to do that after remaining idle while they had a chance? And they actively oppose the Empire in the OT, BTW.

So why did Yoda stay on Dagobah? Why didn't he offer to help Luke fight against the Emperor? You're the one who's been saying over and over that he was still physically fit in TESB and that he wouldn't sit idly by and irresponsibly take a "fuck the galaxy" attitude. So you tell me: why wasn't Yoda willing to confront the Emperor himself?

[vakundok]

You said that you dislike the prequels because they show Yoda as a warrior and you would prefer him to be on Dagobah (teaching) maybe hundreds of years before ANH.

Basically, yes.

I said it would be ineffective for him to communicate with the other jedis, but you suggested it would not. You said that in your version he would be capable to communicate with other jedis through the force or holonet.

Of course, this is all assuming that coordination between the Jedi is even necessary. Personally, I wouldn't have portrayed the Jedi as the highly organized and centralized team of "superheroes" that the prequels do. I'd have them travel alone and settle conflicts by themselves or, if the need arises, with the assistance of local military and law enforcement.

1. The jedis were not only a police force: "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense. Never for attack." To store that knowledge, you will need a central place. (That is the reason for the existence of libraries.) In your version there is not such an information central (especially not for the non-public knowledge).

2. I wrote that a centralised organisation could use the resources more effectively. It is a fact proven by the history. I also wrote examples to show that, but you answered that the independent jedis would communicate each other (through telepathy or holocom), so the efficiency would be higher than usual. I wrote how many additional coordination it would have required. I also showed examples that the communication was not so simply in the prequels. You answered that those did not count because your version would be different. I showed examples from the OT. Now you suggest that communication (and coordination) is not necessary.
As I wrote lack of coordination would mean lower overall efficiency. If there were far more than enough jedis, your theory would stand in this question. As long as the jedis were rare, your version falls.

3. In your version how could someone request help from the Jedi? Since there is no center, no central place to call which could send a jedi to solve the problem.

As I see the current prequels win 3:0 against your version in terms of reality.

Less important things:

Other thing: Yoda's house on Dagobah was not even capable to support Luke, he had to sleep outside. (source: TESB novelisation)

I seem to remember that too. Although, Luke did bring camping equipment with him.

Luke's training was an unfinished one. (So, far from full-lenght.) That was why I mentioned supply ships, remember? Oh, and Kenobi did not recommend him to carry any supplies, so it was an "accident".

About the Clone Wars. It is EU and as such it is official. (It is interesting that you denied the EU explanation and wanted to judge (about the prequels) by canon, but you are now relying on an EU source where Yoda acted very differently from the prequels.)

I use the EU in discussions where the "other side" is defending it as an official extension of Lucas' vision. I personally don't feel obligated to stick to it, but you apparently do. That's why I cite examples from it. Kinda like an atheist quoting bible passages in a debate against Christians.

You used that to reply one of my posts and I am an EU-hater, so I am an "aethist" in that sense too.
But even "EUists" will agree that Yoda did not even ignited his sword in the front- line (the arena) and (just like later) he only oversaw the fight. (While Mace and an other master deflected as many shots as they could.) So, the situations were very similar, but Yoda's behavior (let's assume that that unnamed creature was Yoda) was very different.

Jedis (and Yoda among them) are not warriors in the prequels. I wrote it last time. Maybe the best example for this is in TPM when a rodian said Anakin that he had cheated on the race and Anakin attacked him. Qui-Gonn stopped Anakin and showed him that fighting cannot really solve problems.

What does that prove? Bushido values temperence and morality too. Does that mean Samurai aren't warriors?

The examples together prove that the jedis were diplomats, advisors and scientists with very high combat potential. You find them very similar to samurais. I find them not. I think we cannot solve that difference.

Regardless, I'm not suggesting that the Jedi are grunts nor am I trying to paint Yoda as a "great warrior." I use the phrase facetiously.

Really? When I asked why Yoda would be on Dabogah, you answered that warriors loose effectivity with age, so a semi- retirement. You wrote that you imagined them as samurais and you refer the samurais as warriors. What is the oldest samurai if not a warrior or great warrior?

Nitpicking: You wrote that you dislike the prequels because they turn Yoda both a warrior and a one man jedi facility, if I remember well. But you would place him on Dabogah without even communication (to lead the Jedi as the most experienced), so in other words with the sole purpose of being a one man jedi facility ...

[Slartibartfast]

I originally said that I think of the story structure chronologically when I level my criticisms against it because that's how Lucas intends it to be viewed.

This bafflingly popular notion that it's not meant to be seen the way Lucas himself intends sounds like nothing more than a prequel-apologist cop-out.

Gosh, you see, here's the one instance where Lucas doesn't have final say about his movies, which is the Order in which Everybody (the public) will Watch them. Not only will they watch them in the order they very damn please, it's also a moot point since Everybody has already Watched them in a certain Order.

The simple fact that there are SURPRISES makes it very stupid to believe that it's the intended order (even if Lucas' retarded ass says so), and there's no "apologist cop-out", you see. You don't have to go out of your way to prove it, It's Right There In Front Of Your Face.

[Darth Raptor]

Of course not. That's not what I'm suggesting. You're fixated on the production timeline and it's nothing but a red herring.

I originally said that I think of the story structure chronologically when I level my criticisms against it because that's how Lucas intends it to be viewed.

This bafflingly popular notion that it's not meant to be seen the way Lucas himself intends sounds like nothing more than a prequel-apologist cop-out.

It is NOT a red herring and it is NOT a "prequel-apologist cop-out". How Lucas intends it to be viewed is the red herring. What he wants doesn't matter one bit because it has been Impossible to watch them in chronological order for over 20 years. It is still impossible.

His intentions do matter because that's what I'm holding him accountable for. As I said before, when someone makes a set of prequels to an existing set of movies and has the balls to attach episode numbers to them, I expect the narrative structure to follow accordingly especially when it's their stated intention that we view the story as such.

Even though that stated intention contradicts reality. Lucas' say-so does NOT trump the fact that the movies are executed in a manner where the OT is to be viewed before the prequels.

However, wouldn't it be nice if the movies were also engineered so you can watch them in chronological order? Of course it would. If this alone is your entire point, I agree completely.

I'm not suggesting that the Emperor was a powerless figurehead, but he evidently had to tread carefully for the duration of his reign prior to ANH because the Senate still retained enough power and influence to threaten him.

Point conceded. It still doesn't change my REAL point that the Jedi would not have been blind sheep while all this was going on. They are Jedi for crying out loud! If a few Senators caught on, I'd think the Jedi wouldn't be totally oblivious.

What's funny is that his trump card was destroyed soon afterward. I can imagine that a number of member worlds who just had their political representation illegally dissolved hurled a collective "fuck you" at the Emperor, became openly defiant, and pooled their considerable resources into supporting the rebellion while hiding safely behind the very same planetary defenses that the Death Star was designed to overwhelm.

Yeah, I imagine that did happen to an extent. But the Imperial Navy was still able to blockade most of the vital hyperspace routes and star systems. Not to mention there was a sizable Army and stormtrooper presence on virtually every worthwhile planetoid.

So why did Yoda stay on Dagobah? Why didn't he offer to help Luke fight against the Emperor? You're the one who's been saying over and over that he was still physically fit in TESB and that he wouldn't sit idly by and irresponsibly take a "fuck the galaxy" attitude. So you tell me: why wasn't Yoda willing to confront the Emperor himself?

Maybe because Yoda's not as strong as Palpatine? In TESTB he was training Luke who was not ready to go off and face his father. Fate, destiny and all that crap. By the time of ROTJ he was bed ridden and dying.

[Galvatron]

1. The jedis were not only a police force: "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense. Never for attack." To store that knowledge, you will need a central place. (That is the reason for the existence of libraries.) In your version there is not such an information central (especially not for the non-public knowledge).

That's quite a leap. To me, using the Force for knowledge simply refers to their powers of precognition and telepathy.

2. I wrote that a centralised organisation could use the resources more effectively. It is a fact proven by the history. I also wrote examples to show that, but you answered that the independent jedis would communicate each other (through telepathy or holocom), so the efficiency would be higher than usual. I wrote how many additional coordination it would have required. I also showed examples that the communication was not so simply in the prequels. You answered that those did not count because your version would be different. I showed examples from the OT. Now you suggest that communication (and coordination) is not necessary.
As I wrote lack of coordination would mean lower overall efficiency. If there were far more than enough jedis, your theory would stand in this question. As long as the jedis were rare, your version falls.

Which is yet another reason why I balk at their rarity.

3. In your version how could someone request help from the Jedi? Since there is no center, no central place to call which could send a jedi to solve the problem.

In my version, Jedi would be spread all over the galaxy and at least one or two would usually be no farther away than one of the planets in your own home system. However they're to be contacted would depend on whatever arrangements they've made with their local governments. Otherwise, they'd show up whenever they sense that they're needed.

As I see the current prequels win 3:0 against your version in terms of reality.

I never said they didn't.

Other thing: Yoda's house on Dagobah was not even capable to support Luke, he had to sleep outside. (source: TESB novelisation)

I seem to remember that too. Although, Luke did bring camping equipment with him.

Luke's training was an unfinished one. (So, far from full-lenght.) That was why I mentioned supply ships, remember? Oh, and Kenobi did not recommend him to carry any supplies, so it was an "accident".

Two things: First, Luke's "training" under a master's tutelage up to that point consisted of little more than practicing with a remote on board the Falcon. Second, Luke knew he was traveling to an alien planet and didn't know what to expect, hence the camping equipment.

You used that to reply one of my posts and I am an EU-hater, so I am an "aethist" in that sense too.
But even "EUists" will agree that Yoda did not even ignited his sword in the front- line (the arena) and (just like later) he only oversaw the fight. (While Mace and an other master deflected as many shots as they could.) So, the situations were very similar, but Yoda's behavior (let's assume that that unnamed creature was Yoda) was very different.

Yet the cartoon doesn't contradict anything so it's still official. Which means Yoda officially became a front-line combatant after AOTC. No?

Regardless, I'm not suggesting that the Jedi are grunts nor am I trying to paint Yoda as a "great warrior." I use the phrase facetiously.

Really? When I asked why Yoda would be on Dabogah, you answered that warriors loose effectivity with age, so a semi- retirement. You wrote that you imagined them as samurais and you refer the samurais as warriors. What is the oldest samurai if not a warrior or great warrior?

Okay, try to follow along here: I use the term "great warrior" facetiously because that was Luke's preconceived notion of what a Jedi Master would be and because Yoda apparently found it amusing, hence his little retort about wars not making one great.

However, Yoda was a warrior. We see it. He's officially shown leading an army of clones into a ground battle. That makes him a warrior in my book.

Nitpicking: You wrote that you dislike the prequels because they turn Yoda both a warrior and a one man jedi facility, if I remember well. But you would place him on Dabogah without even communication (to lead the Jedi as the most experienced), so in other words with the sole purpose of being a one man jedi facility ...

No, I called him a one-man Jedi factory because in the prequels he's shown instructing groups of "younglings" in a class, not one-on-one as he taught Luke in TESB.

And just a nitpick: I don't object to the idea that Yoda was once a warrior in his younger days, but I don't like that he was still a warrior during the timeframe that the prequels chronicle.

[Galvatron]

How Lucas intends it to be viewed is the red herring. What he wants doesn't matter one bit because it has been Impossible to watch them in chronological order for over 20 years. It is still impossible.

It was also impossible to see the Special Editions before 1997. Does that mean they're not the final definitive versions of the OT? By the same token, Lucas is obviously referring to the overall storyline as one big 12-hour movie after all the episodes are completed.

However, wouldn't it be nice if the movies were also engineered so you can watch them in chronological order? Of course it would. If this alone is your entire point, I agree completely.

I guess I'll have to be satisfied with that.

I'm not suggesting that the Emperor was a powerless figurehead, but he evidently had to tread carefully for the duration of his reign prior to ANH because the Senate still retained enough power and influence to threaten him.

Point conceded. It still doesn't change my REAL point that the Jedi would not have been blind sheep while all this was going on. They are Jedi for crying out loud! If a few Senators caught on, I'd think the Jedi wouldn't be totally oblivious.

Not everyone views the ascension of a monarch during troubled times as a bad thing. Palpatine may have maintained his public persona as the "good king" so to speak.

Even AOTC shows us that Palpatine cleverly manipulated his way into obtaining "emergency powers" without setting the Jedi against him.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what you're expecting is that in Episode III, Palpatine reveals himself to everyone as the eeevil Sith Lord, assumes the title of Emperor, and orders the deaths of the Jedi on "national TV." I'll be sorely disappointed if Lucas can't come up with something more clever than that. So far, I think Palpatine's subtle machinations have been one of the few good things about the prequels.

What's funny is that his trump card was destroyed soon afterward. I can imagine that a number of member worlds who just had their political representation illegally dissolved hurled a collective "fuck you" at the Emperor, became openly defiant, and pooled their considerable resources into supporting the rebellion while hiding safely behind the very same planetary defenses that the Death Star was designed to overwhelm.

Yeah, I imagine that did happen to an extent. But the Imperial Navy was still able to blockade most of the vital hyperspace routes and star systems. Not to mention there was a sizable Army and stormtrooper presence on virtually every worthwhile planetoid.

In ANH, there were stormtroopers on Tatooine because they were conducting a search. The only other "worthwhile planet" we see in the OT is Coruscant and that's only a brief glimpse. So where's the evidence for a sizable Imperial presence on every planet?

So why did Yoda stay on Dagobah? Why didn't he offer to help Luke fight against the Emperor? You're the one who's been saying over and over that he was still physically fit in TESB and that he wouldn't sit idly by and irresponsibly take a "fuck the galaxy" attitude. So you tell me: why wasn't Yoda willing to confront the Emperor himself?

Maybe because Yoda's not as strong as Palpatine? In TESTB he was training Luke who was not ready to go off and face his father. Fate, destiny and all that crap. By the time of ROTJ he was bed ridden and dying.

Well, unless I missed something, Yoda expressed no intention of personally taking up the fight against Palpatine. That was my point.

[Darth Raptor]

It was also impossible to see the Special Editions before 1997. Does that mean they're not the final definitive versions of the OT? By the same token, Lucas is obviously referring to the overall storyline as one big 12-hour movie after all the episodes are completed.

The Special Editions were still viewed after the original version. And maybe, just maybe Episode III will lock everything neatly into place in a manner that will suit you... But I doubt it.

Not everyone views the ascension of a monarch during troubled times as a bad thing. Palpatine may have maintained his public persona as the "good king" so to speak.

I'm curious. How would you have portrayed the Clone Wars? Assuming the basic premises behind this conflict remain as they are in the prequels Palpatine is manipulating both sides. It wasn't just a random thing that he took advantage of, it was a grand conspiracy that the Jedi were supposed to be involved in unraveling. A lot of Galvatron's Alternative Star Wars is hard to fathom without such details.

Even AOTC shows us that Palpatine cleverly manipulated his way into obtaining "emergency powers" without setting the Jedi against him.

The Jedi were still not completely blind to what was going on. There is a difference between operating under the laws of the Republic during a time of extreme crisis and a coup. I don't think there was an "Emperor's Clause" in the Republic's constitution.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what you're expecting is that in Episode III, Palpatine reveals himself to everyone as the eeevil Sith Lord, assumes the title of Emperor, and orders the deaths of the Jedi on "national TV." I'll be sorely disappointed if Lucas can't come up with something more clever than that. So far, I think Palpatine's subtle machinations have been one of the few good things about the prequels.

Well, yeah. Considering Palaptine declares himself Emperor and proclaims the New Order prior to ANH. Weren't the Jedi wiped out because of their opposition to the New Order? Palpatine's subtle machinations position him for the takeover. Changing title from president to absolute monarch in under a decade does not strike me as either subtle or slow.

In ANH, there were stormtroopers on Tatooine because they were conducting a search. The only other "worthwhile planet" we see in the OT is Coruscant and that's only a brief glimpse. So where's the evidence for a sizable Imperial presence on every planet?

Every worthwhile planet. Specifically the Core and the Colonies, not sun-bleached dust balls on the fringes of the galaxy. Han references Corellia (important world) as a source of Imperial starships. Numerous ISDs of Kuati origin are deployed by the Empire etc. The vastness of the Imperial armed forces infers that they maintain a large force on vital worlds. You're getting the mobile marauder misconception because virtually every world depicted in the OT is remote and almost unknown.

Well, unless I missed something, Yoda expressed no intention of personally taking up the fight against Palpatine. That was my point.

No you didn't miss anything. Yoda does not fight the Emperor directly, Palpatine is too powerful. Yoda sent Luke after Vader. Yoda resists the Empire by training Jedi. The plan was probably to depose Palpatine via the Rebel Alliance.

[Mr Flibble]

"You'll be the death of me" can also be considered foreshadowing, a common storytelling device.

The rest I've already addressed in previous posts...

Yes it could be foreshadowing, but the way it was presented seemed, IMO, to be aimed at people who knew what was going to happen.

It isn't important anyway, I think they should be viewed OT first then PT simpy as a function of the way they were created. The OT was created with the assumption that no one had seen the prequals, for obvious reasons. Then PT was created with the assumption that many watching it would have seen the OT, again for obvious reasons. Regardless of how Lucas says he intends them to be seen, since they had to make these assumptoions when making the films, as a result of making in the order he did, they are best viewed in that order. If he REALLY intended the prequals to be seen first he would have made them first.

In answer to Stofsk question, if I were to introduce someone to Stars, I would definately start them with the OT.

[Sarevok]

While the OT Yoda was superior the prequel Yoda is not too bad either.

[vakundok]

That's quite a leap. To me, using the Force for knowledge simply refers to their powers of precognition and telepathy.

Leap? Have you read the ANH novelisation when Ben mentioned scientists trying to define the Force? Have you read the RotJ novelisation when Luke thought about his knowledge?

Which is yet another reason why I balk at their rarity.

Have I spent my time trying to answer balking? Great.

In my version, Jedi would be spread all over the galaxy and at least one or two would usually be no farther away than one of the planets in your own home system. However they're to be contacted would depend on whatever arrangements they've made with their local governments. Otherwise, they'd show up whenever they sense that they're needed.

The ANH novelisation was quite clear about that the jedis were unable to sense the falling of the Republic. Arrangements with the local governments? I sense that an organisation is starting right here ...

I never said they didn't.

Then why should anyone else prefer your theory?

Two things: First, Luke's "training" under a master's tutelage up to that point consisted of little more than practicing with a remote on board the Falcon. Second, Luke knew he was traveling to an alien planet and didn't know what to expect, hence the camping equipment.

1. I was talking about his training on Dagobah.
2. According to the novelisation he was extremely surprised and wondered why a jedi would have been on such a jungle world.

Yet the cartoon doesn't contradict anything so it's still official. Which means Yoda officially became a front-line combatant after AOTC. No?

However, Yoda was a warrior. We see it. He's officially shown leading an army of clones into a ground battle. That makes him a warrior in my book.

Yes. That makes him a warrior in the prequels era EU. But not in the prequels themselves, and you started this topic to cry about Yoda's presence in the prequels.

Guys, I'm trying to think outside of the box (EU) here.

But now, it is your book ...

If you had written that you had disliked the opening sequences of the Clone Wars cartoon because of this, I would have agreed. But now it appears that you say that you hate the bible because the inquisition was evil.

Okay, try to follow along here: I use the term "great warrior" facetiously because that was Luke's preconceived notion of what a Jedi Master would be and because Yoda apparently found it amusing, hence his little retort about wars not making one great.

I think of Yoda as a wizened, war-weary yet powerful old Samurai master and the swamps of Dagobah as his dojo.

So, an old samurai master is no more a warrior. OK.

No, I called him a one-man Jedi factory because in the prequels he's shown instructing groups of "younglings" in a class, not one-on-one as he taught Luke in TESB.

And those younglings would soon be paired with a master. In the AotC novelisation Obi remembered when he was a member of such a group.

And just a nitpick: I don't object to the idea that Yoda was once a warrior in his younger days, but I don't like that he was still a warrior during the timeframe that the prequels chronicle.

I think I already answered that ...

[Sarevok]

The ANH novelisation was quite clear about that the jedis were unable to sense the falling of the Republic. Arrangements with the local governments? I sense that an organisation is starting right here ...

In episode 2 it was pretty clear that the Jedi were of the great danger to the Republic. Yoda talked about how the clone wars had begun etc.

[vakundok]

The ANH novelisation was quite clear about that the jedis were unable to sense the falling of the Republic. Arrangements with the local governments? I sense that an organisation is starting right here ...

In episode 2 it was pretty clear that the Jedi were of the great danger to the Republic. Yoda talked about how the clone wars had begun etc.

Really? They did not realise at the end of TPM that the sith wanted to gain political power. They did not even beleive Dooku when he said that the whole senate was controlled by a sith lord, and only decided to take a closer look on the senate at the end of AotC (after Palpy got full powers). The Clone War was not the real danger. It was just a tool and a sign. The real danger emerged from within the senate unnoticed, just as it was written in ANH. By the time of TPM it was considerable, by the end of AotC it stopped the Republic from functioning normally. But still, it was unnoticed.
Actually (according to the novelisation) Dooku seemed to be the only jedi who really sensed it and was willing to do against it. Sadly, the same "attitude" also made him more vulnerable to the dark side ...