Who would you rather serve under?

[Stofsk]

McC on a Soapbox

It's cool - he PMed me about it. I was insulted by Kernel who called me a dumbass, to which I returned the favour (but only by proportion). As for the colourful language, yeah. What can I say? Sometimes it's warranted, othertimes it isn't. When the place has no rules for such conduct other than the "Flame me, I flame you back!" policy, what's the beef?

There was no fucking trial either.

My only reaction is:

Of course there wasn't a trial. The Empire doesn't try its personnel for errors. The superior summarily executes the officer or NCO s/he deems responsible for the problem. Vader exhibits this, Thrawn exhibits it less frequently (due in part, I suspect, to the personnel shortage you mentioned).

No military trials at all? That is so ... inconceivable. On what are you basing that upon? As for Vader he's got an excuse - his authority comes straight from the Emperor.

If you're upset over Imperial policy, that's cool, but I don't think you can really blame Thrawn for something like this anymore than you can blame Vader, who has exhibited instances of being even more free with his subordinates' lives.

The thing is Vader killed those two for serious cock-ups, while Thrawn killed Pietersen for ... unknown reasons. It was minor screwup so how do you justify the excessive force? He was a crewman too - it's not like his duty station would give him a chance to seriously put the ship in danger. And his rank too means he wasn't in a position of authority, just another grunt. Was execution really justified then and there when a demotion and brig time could have served as a more effective warning?

He only killed two officers in the movies, but how many has he killed in the EU?

I don't know the answer to that. I know of some instances where he's killed treasonous Admirals, and one case where he took on a Stormtrooper unit and won. But in those cases they were clearly renegades, rather than still being a part of the chain of command.

[McC]

It's cool - he PMed me about it. I was insulted by Kernel who called me a dumbass, to which I returned the favour (but only by proportion). As for the colourful language, yeah. What can I say? Sometimes it's warranted, othertimes it isn't. When the place has no rules for such conduct other than the "Flame me, I flame you back!" policy, what's the beef?

Okay, that's cool.

And, I dunno, think of what happened in Lord of the Flies or something. Just because there aren't any rules doesn't mean we shouldn't try to stay civil anyway...

No military trials at all? That is so ... inconceivable. On what are you basing that upon? As for Vader he's got an excuse - his authority comes straight from the Emperor.

Well, just observation, really. I haven't ever heard of an Imperial military trial in anything I've read (or if I have, I've forgotten it; and please disregard the incongruous use of heard and read ). Doesn't preclude their existence, of course, but doesn't lend much creedence to their existence either.

Incidentally, so does Thrawn's authority. Thrawn is one of only twelve Grand Admirals hand-picked by the Emperor, so he wields just slightly less or as much authority as Vader does.

The thing is Vader killed those two for serious cock-ups, while Thrawn killed Pietersen for ... unknown reasons. It was minor screwup so how do you justify the excessive force? He was a crewman too - it's not like his duty station would give him a chance to seriously put the ship in danger. And his rank too means he wasn't in a position of authority, just another grunt. Was execution really justified then and there when a demotion and brig time could have served as a more effective warning?

I'm trying to do this discussion from memory, so it's a bit hard to recall all the circumstances involved. As such, forgive me if I say something that's blatantly wrong.

My guess, after hearing all the points, is maybe Thrawn didn't want to promote dodging blame. If you fuck up, you better confess to it and try to remedy the situation. Pietersen didn't -- he tried to shift the blame on to Colclazure (which, as I said earlier, appears to be a lie based on the context). I think that, more than anything, was why he was executed. Couple that with the fact that he was either inattentive or uncaring while he was being trained (again, going with the previous assumption), he wasn't really the kind of material Thrawn was looking for. A dishonorable discharge for such a low-ranking, easy-to-replace tech doesn't strike me as Imperial style

I don't know the answer to that. I know of some instances where he's killed treasonous Admirals, and one case where he took on a Stormtrooper unit and won. But in those cases they were clearly renegades, rather than still being a part of the chain of command.

Yeah...maybe someone else knows the answer to this? *looks out into the crowd*

[Trytostaydead]

Mistake versus Error I guess in Pietersen's case. Outside of his training, was Pietersen himself ever going to be aware of the distinction or was he just interested in weaseling out of it? And in that, that set a dangerous precedent to the crew if it wasn't addressed promptly. But more than likely, it could've been addressed without summary execution, but hey.. it's the Empire.

The only trials and hearings I've ever heard about were in the Han Solo trilogy written by Crispin. The first was the dismissal of, crap.. what's his name.. Solo's friend that gets him into the smuggling business from Cardia academy. And then the Governor's recall (haha) back to Coruscant about the fiasco against Nar Shaada. Also the Admiral was quickly killed by Vader to cover up the trail.

[Crazedwraith]

I voted thrawn before reading the thread and after i read it......... i still think Thrawn.

Well lets thing about it Vader kills two of his officers in the course of a few days at hoth. In ANH the only reason he doesn't kill that general for showing a lack of respect for the force was becuase Tarkin was there.

Thrawn executs all of one man through his entire trilogy. Which was what spread out over a year?

[The Kernel]

Try 0 dumbarse, as the narration states that the loss of 1 of 10 tractor beam projectors was a "relatively minor loss." If the ship was significantly damaged and people were killed then Pietersen should have been executed for fucking up. Well, that never happened. And you know what? There was no fucking trial either.

On a ship of 37,000 with 10 tractors, the loss of one is "a relatively minor loss". That doesn't mean no one was killed.

Excuse me? Do you want to quote the fucking text which states Thrawn referring to the scenario as a "simple correction?" Hint: he does not. We don't know how difficult the scenario is for a tractor operator; all we know is Pietersen failed to do it, and there is some form of training that can guard against it. That's it. No more detail is forthcoming. Thrawn most certainly doesn't say the maneuvre was "trivial." In fact, he doesn't say anything to that effect to either Pietersen or Colclazure.

We don't hear dialogue that says that Captain Needa could have used his ships tractor, or a multitude of other methods to capture the MF, yet you claim that his execution by Vader was justified.

So he kills Pietersen for what, talking back? If it wasn't anger then what was it for?

For two reasons: incompetence and his attempt to shift the blaim to his superiors. Thrawn himself said as much to Pellaeon.

And so Thrawn doesn't bother finding out if Colclazure's training regimen was spot on? Do you remember the scene where Pietersen was court martialed?

Do you remember the scene where Captain Needa or Admiral Ozzel were court martialed? Face it, the Empire gives its Commanders wide lattitude is assigning punishment during wartime.

Thrawn was dead in HoD. The Imperials were getting hard ons for an imposter.

They never met Flim. What I meant was that they were still loyal to him a decade after his death.

Perhaps not definitive proof. But certainly shows a casually brutal disregard for a person's life.

He is a warlord who is trying to retake the Galaxy; it is hardly a surprise that he isn't squeemish about dealing out death. That doesn't mean he takes the lives of his men lightly.

Alright, I'm going to repeat myself with this but what the hell: Can someone tell me how summarily executing a crewman (note: not someone in authority or command, one of the grunts or shitkickers) for an admittedly minor technical screwup which leads to a minor setback, which Thrawn feels confident they'll recover from, is justifiable? Especially when he was killed without trial? Especially when the crewman wasn't relieved of his post and taken under arrest?

Aparently this is standard operating procedure for Imperial Commanders since we saw it done TWICE during the films. You can hardly single out Thrawn here.

It's cool - he PMed me about it. I was insulted by Kernel who called me a dumbass, to which I returned the favour (but only by proportion). As for the colourful language, yeah. What can I say? Sometimes it's warranted, othertimes it isn't. When the place has no rules for such conduct other than the "Flame me, I flame you back!" policy, what's the beef?

You've been here this long and a little flaming during debate gets to you?

[Kuja]

Source? Because otherwise...

No no, he's right. I'll see if I can find the source, but I distinctly remember it as well. The junior officers drew lots to see who would have to deliver news to Vader.

Shadows of the Empire:

He turned and saw a junior officer standing there. He had heard that the officers drew lots when it came time to deliver messages to him, and the loser had to go.

[Rogue 9]

Han Solo was court martialed for freeing Chewbacca.

[Lord Pounder]

Han Solo was court martialed for freeing Chewbacca.

Rightly so, how dare he free a valuable source of free labour.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Vader canonically killed FADM Ozzel and CAPT Needa.

Now, Admiral Ozzel was a from a politically well-connected family, and had been repetatively incompetant and failed Vader several times. Captain Needa had Rebel sympathies and failed to capture the Falcon, and I believe he did this somewhat intentionally, or at least this is implied, because of his sympathies for the Rebellion.

Both deserved to be executed.

Thrawn killed a poorly trained enlisted crewman due to the crime of being poorly trained and being born not a Chiss. Vader killed two officers for repeated failures and Rebel sympathies, respectively.

EDIT: As for "learning from mistakes," Thrawn personally ordered Interceptors equipped with shields for this purpose with his TIE pilots. He was just a racist asshole when it came to Pieterson.

Thrawn's racism is not up for debate: Gamer 6 explicitly describes that the crewman's fate would not have been the same had he been a Chiss; less overt. In other words, he wouldn't have killed him--if anyone's bothered to notice, traitors to the Chiss Ascendancy are exiled, always.

Thrawn can execute a human over a triviality, but Chiss cannot bring themselves to kill one another.

And what of Stent's behavior in HoT? Mara as the "soft female"? Doesn't sound very personable to me; more like a biological descriptor of a subsentient thing.

Thrawn was grooming Pellaoen as his protege, I hardly think their encounters together should be seen as anything more then that of a teacher and his student.

CAPT Pelleaon is not GADM Thrawn's second-in-command, he simply commands Thrawn's flagship. Pelleaon is more of a follower who does what he is told, a sidekick really.

The closest thing GADM Thrawn had to a protege was ADM Parck at the Hand of Thrawn.

Thrawn was capable of inspiring well enough that he got command of the Imperial Remnant in the first place,

He was the highest ranking officer in the Imperial Navy at that point; who else could be Supreme Commander?

not to mention the fanatical following of Admiral Parck and the rest of the humans at the Hand of Thrawn.

Traitors and deserters do not represent the average crewman or officer of the Galactic Empire.

[McC]

Now, Admiral Ozzel was a from a politically well-connected family, and had been repetatively incompetant and failed Vader several times. Captain Needa had Rebel sympathies and failed to capture the Falcon, and I believe he did this somewhat intentionally, or at least this is implied, because of his sympathies for the Rebellion.

Where do they say this? Just curious.

Thrawn's racism is not up for debate: Gamer 6 explicitly describes that the crewman's fate would not have been the same had he been a Chiss; less overt. In other words, he wouldn't have killed him--if anyone's bothered to notice, traitors to the Chiss Ascendancy are exiled, always.

Again, Gamer 6? What is this?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Where do they say this? Just curious.

EU Sources. The bit on Ozzel escapes me right now, but the Needa stuff comes from Wedge's Gamble, actually.

Again, Gamer 6? What is this?

An official RPG magazine with short stories and small sets of supplementary information.

[Illuminatus Primus]

That doesn't mean no one was killed.

Argument from Ignorance; Shifting the Burden of Proof.

Buddy, without any evidence one way or the other, the positive claim "people died" lies on the person who's making the claim. We assume no one died unless you have information to the contrary.

We don't hear dialogue that says that Captain Needa could have used his ships tractor, or a multitude of other methods to capture the MF, yet you claim that his execution by Vader was justified.

He had Rebel sympathies, and Vader can read minds.

You can do some math on this.

For two reasons: incompetence and his attempt to shift the blaim to his superiors. Thrawn himself said as much to Pellaeon.

You have not supported the burden of proof on incompetence; neither had Thrawn, which is the whole point.

Not to mention he wouldn't have done it if he were a Chiss.

Do you remember the scene where Captain Needa or Admiral Ozzel were court martialed? Face it, the Empire gives its Commanders wide lattitude is assigning punishment during wartime.

Lord Vader is not a commander; he is a civilian, and the CinC of the Imperial Armed Forces. Vader can read minds, so he is much more able to assess true fault and guilt than Thrawn is without due process.

Aparently this is standard operating procedure for Imperial Commanders since we saw it done TWICE during the films. You can hardly single out Thrawn here.

Poor Analogy. He outlined the precise differences and responsibilities between the two different instances, and you still treat them as analogous. That won't do.

You've been here this long and a little flaming during debate gets to you?

No, he was just clarifying why he called you a dumbfuck in turn.

[Crazedwraith]

The Needa having rebel sympathies was from Wedge's Gamble right?
In that another Needa's space mirror is used by rogue squad to help bring down corusants shields. The needa having rebel sympathies things was invented by one of the Lt. Needas suboordinates as an exuse so they could ingratiate themselves with the rebels, not becuase it actually happened. That officer was MAKING SHIT UP!

[Techno_Union]

Depends on what era Thrawn. If it is when he was in the Uknown Regions, then no. But if it were when he had the Chimera, then hell ya. I would love to be part of the senior staff on the Chimera, not to mention Thrawn seems likew a very interesting commander.

Vader, mabye. I would love to serve on the Executor but its such a big target, then again their are few things to take it down. So it is really a draw.

[Rogue 9]

The Needa having rebel sympathies was from Wedge's Gamble right?
In that another Needa's space mirror is used by rogue squad to help bring down corusants shields. The needa having rebel sympathies things was invented by one of the Lt. Needas suboordinates as an exuse so they could ingratiate themselves with the rebels, not becuase it actually happened. That officer was MAKING SHIT UP!

Dang, beat me to it.

[Illuminatus Primus]

My mistake; nevertheless, he was incompetant.

[FTeik]

Incompetent?

If Vader hadn´t been so eager to capture the Falcon intact or to capture the rebel-base with minimal losses (as to not hurt Luke Skywalker) neither Ozzel´s nor Needa´s failure would have been a major screw-up and the imperials would have been able to achive their goals without complication.

But no, when Skywalker escapes Thrawn the incident is a minor screw-up, where the one doing the failure doesn´t deserve to be executed.

Just out of interest, can somebody post that part from Gamer6?

[Illuminatus Primus]

You can be such an idiot when you're pandering to your Mittyphilia.

In case you hadn't noticed, Thrawn knew his hyperdrive would be junk inside a parsec; if the Falcon had gone to lightspeed, "it could be on the other side of the galaxy by now."

As for the Gamer 6 stuff, search TFN, search these boards, Google it.

I know I've posted it for you specifically at least once, and I suspect twice. I am not digging it up again.

[FTeik]

He was the highest ranking officer in the Imperial Navy at that point; who else could be Supreme Commander?

Perhaps the guy, who was hiding on Byss.

Traitors and deserters do not represent the average crewman or officer of the Galactic Empire.

Yeah, right. But people like the Grandadmirals Zaarin, Grant, Grunger and Pitta or Grandmoffs like Kaine, Tarkin, Sarn Shield or officers like Harrsk, Terradoc, Zsinj, Sair Yonka, Delvardus are ...

And then we have this quote from the ISB:

Advisors
The Emperor acknowledges that he alone cannot run the galaxy. He needs advisors. Secure in the knowledge that an Empire founded through treachery cannot be run through trust, he has surrounded himself with advisors who owe all of their political gains to the Emperor. He has made sure that each advisor has more enemies than allies among the other advisors. Fear and greed serve to bind each advisor to the Emperor. Palpatine finds this arrangement more satisfying than mere loyalty, an emotion on which he will depend only in the case of lower subordinates.

[FTeik]

You can be such an idiot when you're pandering to your Mittyphilia.[/qoute]

And you are always willing to junp through the ceiling, when something doesn´t fit with your point of view.

In case you hadn't noticed, Thrawn knew his hyperdrive would be junk inside a parsec; if the Falcon had gone to lightspeed, "it could be on the other side of the galaxy by now."

And? If Vader hadn´t wanted to catch them intact Needa would have been able to obliterate the ship with a single volley. My point isn´t that the situation wasn´t salvagable for the imperials, my point is, that the situation in question shouldn´t have arisen in the first place. And contrary to Pieterson Needa didn´t try to weasle out.

As for the Gamer 6 stuff, search TFN, search these boards, Google it.

I know I've posted it for you specifically at least once, and I suspect twice. I am not digging it up again.

You sure you don´t confuse this with the Gamer5-stuff? I´m sure i otherwise would have already made a copy of it.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Perhaps the guy, who was hiding on Byss.

No, wanker, Palpatine was never the Supreme Commander.

Yeah, right. But people like the Grandadmirals Zaarin, Grant, Grunger and Pitta or Grandmoffs like Kaine, Tarkin, Sarn Shield or officers like Harrsk, Terradoc, Zsinj, Sair Yonka, Delvardus are ...

Who didn't come back from the boonies to help the Empire retake the galaxy?

Advisors
The Emperor acknowledges that he alone cannot run the galaxy. He needs advisors. Secure in the knowledge that an Empire founded through treachery cannot be run through trust, he has surrounded himself with advisors who owe all of their political gains to the Emperor. He has made sure that each advisor has more enemies than allies among the other advisors. Fear and greed serve to bind each advisor to the Emperor. Palpatine finds this arrangement more satisfying than mere loyalty, an emotion on which he will depend only in the case of lower subordinates.

This has what to do with anything?

And you are always willing to junp through the ceiling, when something doesn´t fit with your point of view.

Don't cry too hard; we all know you have a selective memory when one says anything mean about the Blue Man.

And? If Vader hadn´t wanted to catch them intact Needa would have been able to obliterate the ship with a single volley. My point isn´t that the situation wasn´t salvagable for the imperials, my point is, that the situation in question shouldn´t have arisen in the first place. And contrary to Pieterson Needa didn´t try to weasle out.

Oh I see, now you're trying to say it is comparable because Pieterson gave lip, thus enabling him for summary execution.

If he hadn't needed the Falcon to get Luke, he wouldn't have followed the Falcon at all--what do you think the entire point of TESB was?

You sure you don´t confuse this with the Gamer5-stuff? I´m sure i otherwise would have already made a copy of it.

Whichever; there is only one quote where the "the punishment would've been less overt" comes from.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

He was the highest ranking officer in the Imperial Navy at that point; who else could be Supreme Commander?

Perhaps the guy, who was hiding on Byss.

The Emperor?



There have only been two Supreme Commanders in the Empire: Supreme Commander Lord Darth Vader, and Supreme Commander Luke Skywalker.

[Crazedwraith]

He was the highest ranking officer in the Imperial Navy at that point; who else could be Supreme Commander?

Perhaps the guy, who was hiding on Byss.

The Emperor?


There have only been two Supreme Commanders in the Empire: Supreme Commander Lord Darth Vader, and Supreme Commander Luke Skywalker.

What about pealloean? (SP?)

[Spanky The Dolphin]

First, that wasn't the Empire. It was the Imperial Remnant, a withered, castrated husk of the Empire's former glory run by warlords.

Second, was Pelleon ever called Supreme Commander, considering that it isn't a military rank?

[Crazedwraith]

First, that wasn't the Empire. It was the Imperial Remnant, a withered, castrated husk of the Empire's former glory run by warlords.

Second, was Pelleon ever called Supreme Commander, considering that it isn't a military rank?

First, it's only the imperiel remenant afetr the peace treaty

second, yes he's refered to as supreme commander throughout the HoT and NJO