Was the Rebel Alliance right?

[Lord Jax]

yes i think the rebels were right. As much as i like the imperials if i was a average joe i would like kill the mother fucker!

[IRG CommandoJoe]

And if you were a CommandoJoe, you'd do it even better.

[Admiral Drason]

To call the Empire sexist and racist is a bunch of bull commadojoe. Because we didnt see eny minorities on screen doesnt mean anything. If I recall the rebellion only had two blacks and one asian pilot. Most Imps have helmets on so we cant tell what they are. We see that the Empire isnt sexist in the EU since many of the imperial star ship commanders are women. We cant take what Dalaa says for granted since she was an icompetant officer that sleept her way to the top. It doesent make sense to be racist when you have aliens out their to hate instead.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Daala's the only female flag officer in the Empire, and then only in Tarkin's personal starfleet, not the Imperial Navy.

You need canon contradictions to disregard EU evidence, not Arguments from Ignorance.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Daala's the only female flag officer in the Empire, and then only in Tarkin's personal starfleet, not the Imperial Navy.

You need canon contradictions to disregard EU evidence, not Arguments from Ignorance.

Nobody said disregard. Just taking it from a point of view and thus thinking a grain of salt.

Officers in KJA stories are well known for their lack of knowledge about reality anyway - Executor bankrupting the Empire? Get real.

Again, I have to remind people that at the time Star Wars was originally created, not having women on warships was the frigging NORM. Even if Lucas wanted to show the Empire as even-handed, he can't possibly predict that norms would change in the next ten years.

[Kitsune]

Again, I have to remind people that at the time Star Wars was originally created, not having women on warships was the frigging NORM. Even if Lucas wanted to show the Empire as even-handed, he can't possibly predict that norms would change in the next ten years.

Star trek had female officers before Star Wars was produced and was there not female officers in Space 1999. Starship Troopers in the fiftys had a starship captain who was female although the situation is not much like todays relationship with a marine protecting the female quarters for example.

Battlestar Galactica did follow Star Wars lead and had few good female officers. Athena was a glorified bridge officers when her spunk would have made a better fighter pilot character.

Sorry about the off topic but women were pressing for military roles even then and it would not hard for Lucas to figure it out.

Back on the subject, I have to say that the Rebel Alliance was right in overthrowing the Emperor although the government which was created to replace it was not what was hoped for. Historically, few revolutions have ever really worked out. The US is one of the few and it had problrems in the beginning as well.

One thing I wonder if, while Lucas calls all the novels cannon, he will not eventually produce a sequel to ROTJ and it will overturn all of the later novels. I don't think Lucas has kept enough control to be honest using other authors as comparison.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

To call the Empire sexist and racist is a bunch of bull commadojoe. Because we didnt see eny minorities on screen doesnt mean anything. If I recall the rebellion only had two blacks and one asian pilot. Most Imps have helmets on so we cant tell what they are. We see that the Empire isnt sexist in the EU since many of the imperial star ship commanders are women. We cant take what Dalaa says for granted since she was an icompetant officer that sleept her way to the top. It doesent make sense to be racist when you have aliens out their to hate instead.

As I posted a long time ago:

Third of all, there were waaaaay more people with different colored skin, women, and aliens in high positions in many different organizations of the galaxy (except the Empire) in all of the movies. Captain Panaka of the Naboo Royal Security Force. Both Naboo rulers were Queens. And the other captain who replaced Panaka in AotC...forgot his name, but he wasn't white. The woman pilot in TPM. Mace Windu on the Jedi Council of the Jedi Order. Adi Galla (spelling?) on the Jedi Council of the Jedi Order. There were other female Jedi, both human and alien (Yaddle, for example, plus she was on the Council). Even that Kamino alien was a woman who received Obi-Wan, clearly an aid to the "mayor" of the city. All of the aliens on the Jedi Council and all of the aliens in the Galactic Senate. There were Republic Senators who were women as well. The captain of the diplomatic ship in TPM in the beginning was a woman. In the Bespin scenes, there were black people walking around. And one of the Bespin guards was black. Also, the Baron Administrator of Cloud City was Lando, a black man. There was a woman serving in the Rebel Alliance's headquarters on Hoth. Mon Mothma, the woman leader of the Rebel Alliance. The woman Rebel pilot in RotJ. The black Rebel pilot in RotJ. If I'm not mistaken, there was some Asian guy as a Rebel pilot too in RotJ. Now why wouldn't there be any people with different colored skin or women as highly-ranked officers in the Empire on ANY of its installments in ALL of the movies if the Empire was not racist or sexist? Hell, the Rebel Alliance, Naboo, and the Jedi Order were HEADED by women. While there are plenty of high-ranking black people in many different organizations and in the Old Republic, there are none in the Empire at all. Out of all of the scenes where you see the bridge crew aboard the Executor, the officers aboard the first Death Star, the high-ranking officials in the meeting room aboard the first Death Star, the scanning crew going onto the Millenium Falcon, the officers on all ISD bridges, the officers in the shield generator bunker on Endor, the AT-ST pilots, the commanders of the AT-ATs, the officers commanding soldiers on Endor, the guards with the shiny black helmets, uniforms, and boots onboard the first Death Star detention center and the Executor bridge, the crews in the hangars, ALL of them are human, white males!!! EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM!!! If the movies were intended to show that the Empire was indeed a non-racist, non-sexist organization, it was a sucky attempt to do so. And this is all canon information.

and

Hey, you know what? I actually left out a few situations. In the added Bespin scenes, you see an Imperial officer.....guess what? He's a white, male human. I forgot to mention the Imperial officer leading the way when they were delivering Han Solo to the Slave I. Guess what? He's a white, male human. Actually, that turns out that the actor was Jeremy Bulloch, doubling as an officer as well as playing Boba Fett. But I bet that if Jeremy Bulloch was black, he wouldn't have gotten the role.

and

Watch the movies again. Count how many women, black guys, oraliens you see in the EMPIRE. Anyone not in uniform does not count (bounty hunters, Hutt's guys, etc.). Then count how many women, people with different skin color, and aliens served in the Old Republic, the Jedi Order, the Rebel Alliance, and the Wing Guard (Bespin security guys). When you get tired of counting, only then will you realize the difference.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Star trek had female officers before Star Wars was produced and was there not female officers in Space 1999. Starship Troopers in the fiftys had a starship captain who was female although the situation is not much like todays relationship with a marine protecting the female quarters for example.

I hadn't seen Space 1999, but I might just have clean forgotten. Anyway, taking the TNG era, there were about two or three female senior officers:

Crusher the Doctor
Troi the Counselor
Yar the CSO

In TOS, there was:
Uhura the Comm Officer
Chapel the Researcher

Mostly, I see girls doing their 'traditional' roles. I'd guess there were female doctors and counselors in the 50s. I suppose it is possible for someone to portray an equal world. But it is hardly 'evil' to not let girls on board in the environment of the 80s, as it suddenly became in the 90s and 21st century.

[Kitsune]

Mostly, I see girls doing their 'traditional' roles. I'd guess there were female doctors and counselors in the 50s. I suppose it is possible for someone to portray an equal world. But it is hardly 'evil' to not let girls on board in the environment of the 80s, as it suddenly became in the 90s and 21st century.

Star Wars is really late 70s...80 included some very strong female such as the female marines in Aliens (even if their combat abilities were questionable and they got killed off) Savik was also a very storng female character for the eighties.

That is not why I am calling the Emperor evil, he blew up planets because they disagreed with him.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

What the hell...did everyone forget about Mon Mothma and Leia? Those are some important characters in Star Wars...

[PainRack]

The ISD-II model had better antiair firepower? That's news for me. Better antiship power, yes. But antiair? Canonically, they even took out those secondary and tertiary guns you can find on the ISD-I! Officially (WEG RPGwise) they took out the DP guns and replaced them with HTLBs and HTLCs with good firepower but low FC ratings!

And of course, the old sw.com databank specifically stated that the increased number of guns was due to changes in Imperial doctrine due to the rebels heavy usuage of fighters.

If they work, continue to use them. The 5th Fleet was a brand new construct, so of course they could use all new equipment. We are talking about a Fleet, that even in NJO era had to use the fucking Corusca Rainbow, an Interdictor they got, oh, back in the X-Wing books over fiteen years ago. They also had so much of a Fleet that even the 8-sector large IR could match their contribution during the early parts of the Vong invasion.

Except I say again, there was a new Imperial Doctrine, and as such, there was a need for ISD II, as opposed to ISD I.

As for the NR, you apparently missed the whole point of the issue. The counter-point raised by IP was that if the GE could reform critical intelligence organisations, have an effective sector fleet and government and so on and forth, the NR inability to refit their forces stands out in glaring disparity.

My counter-point was that the GE didn't outperform the NR in refitting their forces.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

And of course, the old sw.com databank specifically stated that the increased number of guns was due to changes in Imperial doctrine due to the rebels heavy usuage of fighters.

Question. Is it in the new databank? If not, then this tidbit is already off the official website? Is something that been put OFF a website still proper evidence? Especially since no one could see the known ISD-I and -II specs (canon and official BOTH) and conclude the -II is superior at aircraft killing.

Two counters:
1) Given the known stats, AA weapons either don't exist on ISDs, or they are never listed.
2) I suppose the Imperial doctrinal purposes are better served by the mass installation of small antiaircraft weapons on both -I and -II. Perhaps that's what they did, rather than thinking changing the DP cannons into pure capship cannons will somehow INCREASE AA capability.
3) Again. Size. It is very easy to refit 5 Sector Groups. It is a lot harder to refit countless.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Daala's the only female flag officer in the Empire, and then only in Tarkin's personal starfleet, not the Imperial Navy.

You need canon contradictions to disregard EU evidence, not Arguments from Ignorance.

Nobody said disregard. Just taking it from a point of view and thus thinking a grain of salt.

Officers in KJA stories are well known for their lack of knowledge about reality anyway - Executor bankrupting the Empire? Get real.

Again, I have to remind people that at the time Star Wars was originally created, not having women on warships was the frigging NORM. Even if Lucas wanted to show the Empire as even-handed, he can't possibly predict that norms would change in the next ten years.

None of that is sufficient excuse to contradict the EU. The EU is canonical insofar that it does not contradict or undermine the meaning of George Lucas' works.

If it can not be demonstrated to do so, it is canonical by policy. The EU stands.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

None of that is sufficient excuse to contradict the EU. The EU is canonical insofar that it does not contradict or undermine the meaning of George Lucas' works.

If it can not be demonstrated to do so, it is canonical by policy. The EU stands.

Just making sure that we are not presuming what may not be said. Anyway:
1) Is Daala the only female flag we could see? Or is she claim to be the only female flag? The POV is very important in such analysis, so if you have the relevant quotes, could you please post them for future reference?
2) If they are speaking from Daala's viewpoint, could she really be sure she's the ONLY female flag? With four thousand sectors or over in the Empire, that means 16000 Fleets, 64000 Forces, 256000 Squadrons, and all those staff positions. Are you going to convince me Daala had access to and parsed through that entire list and found no females? She's going to have to keep current with the list as well. Even if KJA (in SOD mode a Historian who had the misfortune to write some of the crummiest parts of known SW history) would be unlikely to have that much detailed data to positively make such a conclusion.
3) Given the competence of the women we did see, I could hardly blame the Imperial Navy for not trying women in flag roles, even if this is true.

[Rogue 9]

None of that is sufficient excuse to contradict the EU. The EU is canonical insofar that it does not contradict or undermine the meaning of George Lucas' works.

If it can not be demonstrated to do so, it is canonical by policy. The EU stands.

Just making sure that we are not presuming what may not be said. Anyway:
1) Is Daala the only female flag we could see? Or is she claim to be the only female flag? The POV is very important in such analysis, so if you have the relevant quotes, could you please post them for future reference?

To my knowledge, we never see another female flag officer.

[YT300000]

None of that is sufficient excuse to contradict the EU. The EU is canonical insofar that it does not contradict or undermine the meaning of George Lucas' works.

If it can not be demonstrated to do so, it is canonical by policy. The EU stands.

Just making sure that we are not presuming what may not be said. Anyway:
1) Is Daala the only female flag we could see? Or is she claim to be the only female flag? The POV is very important in such analysis, so if you have the relevant quotes, could you please post them for future reference?

To my knowledge, we never see another female flag officer.

Yssane Issard.

[Rogue 9]

Just making sure that we are not presuming what may not be said. Anyway:
1) Is Daala the only female flag we could see? Or is she claim to be the only female flag? The POV is very important in such analysis, so if you have the relevant quotes, could you please post them for future reference?

To my knowledge, we never see another female flag officer.

Yssane Issard.

She wasn't a naval flag officer, she was civilian head of Imperial Intelligence. And she was not promoted there under her own merits; she took the job from her father in a sort of coup.

[Sarevok]

Were they right to try and overthrow palpatine?
(From a moral standpoint. NOT a legal one!)

The Empire has portrayed as an evil, oppesive dictatorship in the SW movies. So I think the Rebels were right to try and ovethrow Palpatine.

[PainRack]

Question. Is it in the new databank? If not, then this tidbit is already off the official website? Is something that been put OFF a website still proper evidence? Especially since no one could see the known ISD-I and -II specs (canon and official BOTH) and conclude the -II is superior at aircraft killing.

Conceded.

Two counters:
1) Given the known stats, AA weapons either don't exist on ISDs, or they are never listed.
2) I suppose the Imperial doctrinal purposes are better served by the mass installation of small antiaircraft weapons on both -I and -II. Perhaps that's what they did, rather than thinking changing the DP cannons into pure capship cannons will somehow INCREASE AA capability.
3) Again. Size. It is very easy to refit 5 Sector Groups. It is a lot harder to refit countless.

Did or did not, the Galactic Empire, succeed in refitting their ships to a larger extent than the New Republic?

[Lex]

I don't think this topic can be threated seriously. It's damn obvious that the Emperor was a muss murder(I still like him), see the destruction of Alderaan. Aliens were "things" as the Imperial Prison Officer mentions, and in none of the movies you see any female or alien Imperial. And if you count the EU you are totally lost. Look at Daala's example. She invented brilliant tactics, and still here officers surpressed her and let her do stupid jobs. The only 2 head officers who let Aliens and Women into Imperial Ranks were Daala, who was a women and Thrawn, who was an alien. And a list of imperial massacres would take hours to write.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

What about Pellaeon? I thought he was a more moderate Imperial. Didn't he allow aliens and women in?

[consequences]

If sexism was really that prevalent, don't you think there would have been a mutiny against Tavira and Isaard?

[Rogue 9]

What about Pellaeon? I thought he was a more moderate Imperial. Didn't he allow aliens and women in?

Pellaeon led the Imperial Remnant, a totally different entity (mostly because of his leadership, I think).

And if you count the EU you are totally lost. Look at Daala's example. She invented brilliant tactics, and still here officers surpressed her and let her do stupid jobs.

Brilliant tactics? Daala was possibly the worst tactician ever portrayed in the movies or the EU. Sure, we hear about her brilliance as a cadet on Carida, but come on! She never demonstrated any tactical ability at all. She just told stories about how brilliant she was at the Carida academy, then proceeded to lose her ships at an amazing rate. [/i]

[Lex]

Pelleaon's Remnant really was different. And Daala well I agree that's what she said but she also mentioned that fleet officers were trained with her programms.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

If sexism was really that prevalent, don't you think there would have been a mutiny against Tavira and Isaard?

A mutiny? Imperials might be sexist, but they are also disciplined. I don't think Imperials would mutiny against their superiors simply because they don't like them. Are there many cases of Imperials mutinying simply because they dislike their superiors?

About Daala, I recall someone here said that Daala was indeed a brilliant tactician, but only for her time before being shut away at Maw Installation. What the hell, for years and years she only had command of three ISDs, IIRC, away from any sort of real battles. Then again, I only read Darksaber and none of the other books with her in it, so I don't know terribly much about her.