Imperial policy

[consequences]

It is possible that to avoid cross species problems, the Empire operated a number of ships with wholly alien crews. This gets us into the segregation argument of racism, but it makes sense from a practical standpoint. Rather than having to reconfigure consoles every time a shift changes and a member of a different species comes on duty, you can keep settings the same constantly. It will also ease the supply needs of the ship, and reduce personality conflicts based on gross cultural differences. The reason we see no evidence of this on-screen is that Lucas had neither the time, money, nor inclination to go to the efforts to portay a ship full of x-species, especially when he's already gone tot he effort of making all those Mon Cal costumes.

The other possibility is that given the gross short-sighted self-serving nature of several species in the EU, members of individual species tended to act as members of their own regional defense forces, and this was played up by the Rebel Alliance as evidence of speciesism.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Ergo, the claim is false.

Connor-style rationalization: You never saw the innards. For all you know, they rearranged the innards (which would also require a redesign) and you just nevr saw

I know you saw this one elsewhere, too

And really, while the canon showing distinct subtypes (at least to the limits of our discrimination ability) is strong proof towards the claim being false, the fact the officials always show canon-based schematics is not a strong point. After all, if every design is different, all they can show us is a typical one. Might as well show us one well-documented.

I'm pro-asshole Mon Cals. I fully support the idea they intentionally tried to dominate the upper echelons of the NR naval officer corps.

I wouldn't mind not thinking that way, but am forced to temporarily conclude this is the case in the lack of adequate explanations otherwise.

BTW, what I'm really curious about is why everyone is so eager to defend those fish-heads, and they always use those same excuses.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Only thing I do need to say is that the systems are indeed more complicated than you think, the quote says the system also react to MonCal instincts, not just what frequencies and such they are shown on.

All the quote you provided said they were "keyed to" Mon Cal instincts. Which just means they may come a little more to hand. A more Mon-Cal ergonomic KEYBOARD and different viewing spectrum could do that.

But to sum up your argument:
1) It's easy to change the systems - prove it

Can't prove it completely. The RASB suggests, however, that the rest of the ship could be, and was converted so everyone could use it. That's a strong clue that the re-arrangement is NOWHERE as difficult as you think.

It is certainly no more difficult than rearranging the innards (and possibly the outtards) of the ship every time they build a new one - if you believe the official claim.

2) It would help alot to change the systems - only if there was a crew shortage, but MonCal sips wheren't that plentifull and far from the only ships in the RA navy, they where some of the biggest and most effective, probably due to size and a homogenous crew.

I just don't see any reasons for there to be a hurry...

THe RASB suggests they were not homogenous. Mixing your statement in suggests the later built ones were no longer homogenous.

"They were some of the biggest ... PROBABLY due to size?" Sorry, but I just had to poke fun at this.

Introducing competition is always a good thing, for a fleet that needed to make 200% efficient just to have a fraction of a chance. It might be that even after making the bridge a free-competition zone, the crew would be 90% Mon Cal. If that was done on ability, that's fine, and if the 10% other species allowed in were also chosen on ability, the ship would be that much more efficient.

[consequences]

I'm pro-asshole Mon Cals. I fully support the idea they intentionally tried to dominate the upper echelons of the NR naval officer corps.

I wouldn't mind not thinking that way, but am forced to temporarily conclude this is the case in the lack of adequate explanations otherwise.

BTW, what I'm really curious about is why everyone is so eager to defend those fish-heads, and they always use those same excuses.

Because all Mon Calamari are inherently good, unlike Humans, who are limited by their base and violent natures. Or is that humans unlike Klingons, I forget.

[Crown]

The RASB kills any chance of that idea. You do know the RASB was timed before Hoth, did you?

And even if they did only join at TESB, waiting six years to introduce full scale integration is VERY TARDY.

Ackbar goes all the way back to the beginning of the formal creation of the Rebel Alliance. He was the first, and only CINC of the Rebel Fleet.'

By the way, the time between ANH and TESB is also officially fixed, at about 3 YEARS.

I don't know what RASB is ... but Stofsk has already corrected me on the time frame.

"The Mon Cals will be familiar with their ships!" That's the SECOND favorite counterargument, and IMHO it doesn't wash as well.

What part of "Both procedures can be done concurrently" do you not understand.

I understand it perfectly.

The Mon Cals will not be familiar with the ships when they get back. A civ-to-warship design conversion means a redesign of the power supply system, the addition of armor (which changes the mass and handling characteristics of the ship,) perhaps even a boost in engine and total reactor power.

It'd be almost a new ship when they get back.

You don't understand that we don't know whether or not the ships were set up for non Mon-Cal systems. This is more than a little take out one interface and plug another in. The upgrades would have used Mon-Cal equiptment anyway right? Optimised for Mon Cal use, while the ship would be substantially changed, there is no reason that it still would be easy to put in other species friendly upgrades. If this is a Mon Cal upgrade, using Mon Cal parts and systems, then they would need to design and start a new production line for humans, or buy from another contractor.

Exactly how is the 'cashed strapped' 'guerilla' RA going to accomplish this?

All I'm saying is that maybe, for example when they are adding the new fucking Weapons Control Console on the bridge during the Refit, they can choose to get one everyone can use!

I would agree, but they obviously didn't, so we can assume that the evil Mon Cal were being obtuse about it, or that it wasn't an issue. And why would it be? The RA gets nice big ships that can actually go toe to toe with the Imperial fleet, a bunch of aliens crewing them which would be a major political symbol to the other non human species within the Empire that the RA isn't seeking to overthrow the Empire so that it can place another human government in its place, but rather seeks to integrate all the Galaxy's sentient species within an equality.

Considering that Mon Cals have joined for a lot longer, this is weak. You also are presuming the Mon Cals won't have to refamiliarize themselves with their ships when they get converted, despite the changes in characteristics.

The time duration has already been corrected, and conceeded, but why would Mon Cals have the same learning curve on indeginous systems, as say other species? It is only logical to assume that the refits were using Mon Cal tech, which was optimised for use by Mon Cals, and the Mon Cals were in someway already familiar with them. Thus providing the option for a Mon Cal crew as being a plus.

Of course if it is shown that the Mon Cals had to go back to square one and start from scratch (i.e. had no kind of military indiginous systems, for their own warships), then this gets blown right out of the water, and the Mon Cals were beign just pricks.

As if they don't know already. Anybody that can't figure out who gave those Mon Cal cruisers to the Rebels (remember, only Mon Cal crews can run their bridges, so that really cuts down on the competitors yet again) is an idiot beyond believe.

No, you are missing my point here. The point was the outside of the ships, their design and silouete are so distinctive that it showed that the Mon Cal were the ship builders of the RA, regardless if they were crewing the ship themselves. So why would the Mon Cal take the risk of handing over the clearest evidence of their rebellion against the Emperor's authority to the RA, and hoping that all went well?

From a military and political view, the Mon Cal's obviously felt that if they were going to place their necks on the chopping board, they might as well be the ones to fly their own ships.

The Mon Cals will be on about the same place on the learning curve for their conversions, and ESPECIALLY for their new builds which would need new crews.

Only, and only if you assume that the Mon Cals didn't use indeginous systems upgrades, or if they didn't have the military hardware that was retro fitted in the begining. And if this is the case, then I would agree.

I've said it before and I'd say it again. Even if this BS works for conversions, it doesn't work for the spanking new ships, and certainly not SPANKING NEW SHIPS YEARS AFTER ENDOR!

I thought we were discussing the events up to Endor, not the 'YEARS AFTER ENDOR!', was I wrong?

[Crown]

I think I just got it.

RASB = Rebel Alliance Source Book, right?

[Admiral Felire]

[/quote]I thought we were discussing the events up to Endor, not the 'YEARS AFTER ENDOR!', was I wrong?

From my origional post we were talking only cannon sources. This only includes the six movies and their direct connections.

Is it just me or has their been proof that the Empire might not have actually been racist or sexist if one only takes into account the movies.

I find it interesting that it seems the EU took one line (the one about the wookie being a thing) and increased it to make a society racist and sexist. George Lucus seems to show, at least in my opinion, that the Emperor looks at strength and capabilities above all else. This includes race and sex.

Very interesting how this thread has grown and expanded. Keep it up keep it up.

[Crown]

]I thought we were discussing the events up to Endor, not the 'YEARS AFTER ENDOR!', was I wrong?

From my origional post we were talking only cannon sources. This only includes the six movies and their direct connections.

Is it just me or has their been proof that the Empire might not have actually been racist or sexist if one only takes into account the movies.

I find it interesting that it seems the EU took one line (the one about the wookie being a thing) and increased it to make a society racist and sexist. George Lucus seems to show, at least in my opinion, that the Emperor looks at strength and capabilities above all else. This includes race and sex.

Very interesting how this thread has grown and expanded. Keep it up keep it up.

Well okay then, for a second I thought I was trolling or incredibly dense.

[Lord of the Farce]

Exactly how is the 'cashed strapped' 'guerilla' RA going to accomplish this?

I think that another way to look at Kazuaki's point is that: if the RA really is so cash strapped (and the Mon Cals such "pacifist" to begin with), the most likely way to convert the MC ships to warships would be to mount them with non-Mon Cal military grade equipment, from weapons to shields to the interfaces with the other equipments, because why would the Mon Cal's infrastructure be geared for such work to begin with?

[Crown]

Exactly how is the 'cashed strapped' 'guerilla' RA going to accomplish this?

I think that another way to look at Kazuaki's point is that: if the RA really is so cash strapped (and the Mon Cals such "pacifist" to begin with), the most likely way to convert the MC ships to warships would be to mount them with non-Mon Cal military grade equipment, from weapons to shields to the interfaces with the other equipments, because why would the Mon Cal's infrastructure be geared for such work to begin with?

Yes, but the context that this thread is based on is within the absolute canon of the movies, so I got the impression that Ackbar was the RA's admiral from RotJ, and that he wasn't a newb at it at all.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

You don't understand that we don't know whether or not the ships were set up for non Mon-Cal systems. This is more than a little take out one interface and plug another in. The upgrades would have used Mon-Cal equiptment anyway right? Optimised for Mon Cal use, while the ship would be substantially changed, there is no reason that it still would be easy to put in other species friendly upgrades. If this is a Mon Cal upgrade, using Mon Cal parts and systems, then they would need to design and start a new production line for humans, or buy from another contractor.

Exactly how is the 'cashed strapped' 'guerilla' RA going to accomplish this?

Whether this is true is irrevelant. Whatever the source of the weapons and shield generators, it is obvious that it is not so much a challenge to make everything multi-species capable, because the rest of the ship was re-arranged that way. Just the bridge. The bridge is little more than a set of interfaces to the rest of the ship. If the rest of the ship can be arranged for the multi-species friendly, so can the bridge.

I would agree, but they obviously didn't, so we can assume that the evil Mon Cal were being obtuse about it, or that it wasn't an issue. And why would it be? The RA gets nice big ships that can actually go toe to toe with the Imperial fleet, a bunch of aliens crewing them which would be a major political symbol to the other non human species within the Empire that the RA isn't seeking to overthrow the Empire so that it can place another human government in its place, but rather seeks to integrate all the Galaxy's sentient species within an equality.

One thing is definite. "Species equality" is not about one species designing vessels that manage to lock everyone else outta the bridge. It is about positions being open to everyone to compete based on ability. Even if you presume that Mon Cals on average got some kind of advantage (they supposedly got a 3 dimensional spatial thinking advantage for instance,) unless you want to contend the overall advantage is huge enough to exclude almsot everyone else from consideration, they should be made to compete fairly.

If I'm in the Alliance, and I see this, I'd be grim. Changes are started from the things that are within your abilities. How are a bunch of people who can't get species equality to work on their own warships going to implement it throughout the galaxy?

From a military and political view, the Mon Cal's obviously felt that if they were going to place their necks on the chopping board, they might as well be the ones to fly their own ships.

Ah, I see, they want special privileges, so they specially design bridges to lock everyone out. What saints the Mon Cals must be!

I thought we were discussing the events up to Endor, not the 'YEARS AFTER ENDOR!', was I wrong?

The main part of the Thread was about using only canon evidence. I made a little side comment about the Mon Cal ships, and it flared up into a tangent. The Mon Cal ship problem lasted from the beginning of the Alliance to six years after Endor, so I'm putting the whole period under scrutiny. If you want to exclude post-Endor events, then the Mon Cals NEVER corrected the problem.

[Crown]

Whether this is true is irrevelant. Whatever the source of the weapons and shield generators, it is obvious that it is not so much a challenge to make everything multi-species capable, because the rest of the ship was re-arranged that way. Just the bridge. The bridge is little more than a set of interfaces to the rest of the ship. If the rest of the ship can be arranged for the multi-species friendly, so can the bridge.

But the rest of the ship wasn't though was it? I mean in the EU you always hear how the atmospheric control was always a poor compromise between Mon Cal comfortable and human stuffy.

From the movies, we only see other species in the docking bay servicing and working on their own ships/fighters, we don't even see the Turbolaser or weapons placements.

One thing is definite. "Species equality" is not about one species designing vessels that manage to lock everyone else outta the bridge. It is about positions being open to everyone to compete based on ability. Even if you presume that Mon Cals on average got some kind of advantage (they supposedly got a 3 dimensional spatial thinking advantage for instance,) unless you want to contend the overall advantage is huge enough to exclude almsot everyone else from consideration, they should be made to compete fairly.

Well that is all grand in a unified government, or superstate encompasing different demographics, but we are again discussing the RA, and not the NR. An alliance is built by cooperating parties working together on the same common goal.

What you are saying is similar to the US being assholes during Afganistan, by not getting out of their aircraft carriers and giving them to the French, while the French should have given the US the CdG, so that they would be 'truely equal'.

Don't be an ass. The alliance was built around groups who wanted to help overthrow the Empire, the Bothans provided their intelligence network, the Mon Cal provided their ships, fully crewed and ready for action. Clearly the fault rests in the human leaders of the RA for not turning over their bank accounts to a Mon Cal or a Bothan so that they can show 'species equality'.

If I'm in the Alliance, and I see this, I'd be grim. Changes are started from the things that are within your abilities. How are a bunch of people who can't get species equality to work on their own warships going to implement it throughout the galaxy?

Rubbish, if I am in the Alliance I would see that if I want to be on the bridge of a ship, I should fork out the money and provide one. I would see that if I can't do this, and then whatever skills/resources I do have then I had best stick to that.

Ah, I see, they want special privileges, so they specially design bridges to lock everyone out. What saints the Mon Cals must be!

Oh wow, and the rebuttle was where exactly? The Mon Cal were providing material for the fight. Not only did they provide excellent ships, but they also provided crews to crew them. How god awfully evil.

The main part of the Thread was about using only canon evidence. I made a little side comment about the Mon Cal ships, and it flared up into a tangent. The Mon Cal ship problem lasted from the beginning of the Alliance to six years after Endor, so I'm putting the whole period under scrutiny. If you want to exclude post-Endor events, then the Mon Cals NEVER corrected the problem.

No, the Canon events means; 6 months, and that at the end of RotJ the RA won, and there was no need for any more military ships, or that the Empire came back and kicked some ass, or the fleet ended up comitting suicide after they realised they had decimated Endor. We don't know what happens after RotJ from absolute canon.

[His Divine Shadow]

You argument consists of these two arguments working in tandem:

All the quote you provided said they were "keyed to" Mon Cal instincts. Which just means they may come a little more to hand. A more Mon-Cal ergonomic KEYBOARD and different viewing spectrum could do that.

Can't prove it completely. The RASB suggests, however, that the rest of the ship could be, and was converted so everyone could use it. That's a strong clue that the re-arrangement is NOWHERE as difficult as you think.

However, with that quote from the official site it seems to me that ships with non-homogenous crews where rare, it could suggest it's not easy and as such not applied to alot of older ships when the need for active ships is high and the need for mixed-species crews are low.

It is certainly no more difficult than rearranging the innards (and possibly the outtards) of the ship every time they build a new one - if you believe the official claim.

I don't though, at most I could buy there was some superficial alterations of the hull.

[Lord of the Farce]

Here's another factor that I feel should be considered when it comes to the Mon Cal ships (though this involves EU somewhat): From the novel Slave Ship, and perhaps a few others that I don't recall right now, we know that supervessels like the ISDs (and by implications, the big Mon Cals too) require special bracing for the heavy weapons, or else be ripped apart firing them.

Now why would previously unmodified civilian ships designed for non-military purposes be made with bracing that are a special requirement for the heavy weapons of supervessels? They don't have any reason to, which implies that in order to get these ships to a rough parity with Imperial warships, at some time or another, they would have had to go through serious internal refit.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

However, with that quote from the official site it seems to me that ships with non-homogenous crews where rare, it could suggest it's not easy and as such not applied to alot of older ships when the need for active ships is high and the need for mixed-species crews are low.

for the 10th time. I have no problem with it not being applied to older ships. You know, the ones that are converted or built BEFORE they joined the Rebel Alliance. Those have combat-rated crews already. No point in changing those.

I'm talking any ones AFTER that date, and certainly the ones built after Endor.

As for the ease, you might dream of it being expensive and difficult, but the known specific differences are simply not that difficult, and had already been done to most areas except for the bridge according to the RASB.

I don't though, at most I could buy there was some superficial alterations of the hull.

Any real alteration worth being called a unique design, internal or external, will require computations to be made of every point.

Even if you buy one unified design, as I said to Primus before, at the VERY, VERY least they could have made Remonda go right.
----

No, the Canon events means; 6 months, and that at the end of RotJ the RA won, and there was no need for any more military ships, or that the Empire came back and kicked some ass, or the fleet ended up comitting suicide after they realised they had decimated Endor. We don't know what happens after RotJ from absolute canon.

Full canon, by the way, would also have no sign of that problem appearing. It won't have a real sign of the Imperials having a racist problem either. This is a tangent from the original thread to begin with, started from a little side comment that two Apologists immediately seized on.

But the rest of the ship wasn't though was it? I mean in the EU you always hear how the atmospheric control was always a poor compromise between Mon Cal comfortable and human stuffy.

Yet the controls were, and those were precisely what I was talking about.

From the movies, we only see other species in the docking bay servicing and working on their own ships/fighters, we don't even see the Turbolaser or weapons placements.

Yeah, and so according to the film, it really is supposed to be one big family, because the only parts we see do suggest multi-specialism.

Well that is all grand in a unified government, or superstate encompasing different demographics, but we are again discussing the RA, and not the NR. An alliance is built by cooperating parties working together on the same common goal.

Problem: The Rebel Alliance does see itself as a government. There is a Chief of State, a Cabinet and a Minister of War (from RASB, which from an intrinsic perspective is a document the Rebels produced themselves). Therefore, unified government rules apply.

What you are saying is similar to the US being assholes during Afganistan, by not getting out of their aircraft carriers and giving them to the French, while the French should have given the US the CdG, so that they would be 'truely equal'.

Unfortunately, the bond between the Alliance, is, as proclaimed by their own documents, far closer than your idea of an Alliance. Try imagining a scenario where French fighters fly off American carriers and vice versa, and crewmen from every nation are on the American carriers doing their share, but the Americans cleverly arrange things so no one can command the bridge. That's a bit closer, and that's not quite it.

You are better off thinking in terms of one Government, with some State-like government under it. If you are an American How would you feel if a shipyard in New York builds a warship (I forgot where the real US shipyards are located,) and they allow Americans on, but they conspire to only let New Yorkers on the bridge. Are you going to say that shit you said below, and choke it down?

Don't be an ass. The alliance was built around groups who wanted to help overthrow the Empire, the Bothans provided their intelligence network, the Mon Cal provided their ships, fully crewed and ready for action. Clearly the fault rests in the human leaders of the RA for not turning over their bank accounts to a Mon Cal or a Bothan so that they can show 'species equality'.

Yet the Bothan Intelligence Network is a mere part of the overall system, and the Intelligence department itself does not conspire to only let Bothans sit on the top, do they?

The early, pre-Alliance conversions are no doubt provided with crews. Because they wouldn't move any other way!!! For the later conversions, they just locked everyone else off the bridge.

Rubbish, if I am in the Alliance I would see that if I want to be on the bridge of a ship, I should fork out the money and provide one. I would see that if I can't do this, and then whatever skills/resources I do have then I had best stick to that.

I see, so you can choke down this injustice. With you being a mere junior officer who joined because you really believed that optimistic shit your Recruiter dumped into you about the RA, do you think it is likely you have money for a major warship?

Is THAT your answer to the victims of racism? If you want to get the top jobs, you should fork out the money and build yourself a company (knowing full well they can't?) If you can't, then you should just hunker down and do their best for the Racist System anyway? Really.

Oh wow, and the rebuttle was where exactly? The Mon Cal were providing material for the fight. Not only did they provide excellent ships, but they also provided crews to crew them. How god awfully evil.

They are providing material, so we can overlook racism. That may be the pragmatic view, but it is not correct. Unless you think it is correct for Whites to keep blacks from their corporation's top ranks on account on they started the corporation.

[His Divine Shadow]

I'm talking any ones AFTER that date, and certainly the ones built after Endor.

Ships can take years to build you know, what does one do with the ships in mid-construction?
What if you've already training crews alongside those ships?

As for the ease, you might dream of it being expensive and difficult, but the known specific differences are simply not that difficult, and had already been done to most areas except for the bridge according to the RASB.

No, I strongly believe that is so because when coupled with the quote from the official site it would imply only a very few ships where ever converted like that, and it might very well be that it's not that easy.
Ofcourse outside the universe what I do believe is that they want to ignore the RASB quote in favor of their new explanation.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Ships can take years to build you know, what does one do with the ships in mid-construction?
What if you've already training crews alongside those ships?

Not in SW, where even Death Stars can be built in months. A Mon Cal cruiser takes about six months to crank out, a frigate only a month. All a matter of how much resource you are putting onto it. They get to make that decision very often.

Well, then they could train a multi-species command crew while the ship is being hammered out, could they?

The concept of training in the Rebel Alliance is minimal in any case. Basic training is 8 weeks long (40 days in the Imperial calendar.) After which they are sent to their operational unit. Even officers are given a mere six months. Most Rebel training is the on-the-job in operational unit variety.

No, I strongly believe that is so because when coupled with the quote from the official site it would imply only a very few ships where ever converted like that, and it might very well be that it's not that easy.
Ofcourse outside the universe what I do believe is that they want to ignore the RASB quote in favor of their new explanation.

You want to imagine severe difficulties, even though known differences are not truly severe.

Extrinsically, you might be right. I guess somebody other than me is picking up on the fact that the RASB's position is not making the Mon Cals sound very good. Rather than admit the Mon Cals may not be perfect, they try to snuff out this shameful part of history.

[His Divine Shadow]

Well, even if we assume it's not a hard thing to do, though I find your DS analogy flawed because the empire had all the resources and infrastructure and men they needed, unlike the rebels who only really had Mon Calamari as their main source of ships, whats the urgent need for anyway? The rebels had many ships of all types, that where not inflicted with the MonCal related problems, they would need crews of other species, if they really where strained for manpower it might also be a tactical decision to let the MonCals crew their own vessels as much as possible and use the other until an entierly new ship class came

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Well, even if we assume it's not a hard thing to do, though I find your DS analogy flawed because the empire had all the resources and infrastructure and men they needed,

I'm just using it to show how you cannot use simple Earth standards. Some ships do take longer, such as the Eclipse and the MC90, possibly due to a lack of priority. The average MC80, however, supposedly takes six months to hammer together.

unlike the rebels who only really had Mon Calamari as their main source of ships, whats the urgent need for anyway?

So even if the change would take little to no extra effort, you would not work to eliminate a racist policy until you feel you have an "urgent need" to? By the way, because you've delayed, when there is an "urgent need" to, it'd take more effort to correct the deficiency.

The rebels had many ships of all types, that where not inflicted with the MonCal related problems, they would need crews of other species, if they really where strained for manpower it might also be a tactical decision to let the MonCals crew their own vessels as much as possible and use the other until an entierly new ship class came

Actually, the smartest decision would have been to open the ships as far as possible to fair competition, thus ensuring the maximal use of the ENTIRE available pool.

[His Divine Shadow]

Actually, as I see it, there is no need yes, there is however an urgent need for working ships, there's enough MonCals, there's a new ship on the way, a few existing ships have been converted, there's plenty of non-MC ships in the fleet for other species.
Nor does it strike me as racist, that just seems like oversensitivity to me, the MC's are converting some ships and they are designing a new model from scratch, so no problemo.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Actually, as I see it, there is no need yes, there is however an urgent need for working ships,

Which you couldn't prove would be greatly (or even significantly) delayed by choosing to install all-species usable stuff.

there's enough MonCals,

There are enough Whites, so it is OK to retain a discriminatory policy.

there's a new ship on the way,

It'd be nice if that ship actually solved the problem, but it didn't (the MC80B).

a few existing ships have been converted,

Just not completely, which just shows continuing the discriminatory policy is most likely NOT due to any major technical problem.

there's plenty of non-MC ships in the fleet for other species.

1) Equality with exceptions is not equality. I'm sure you've heard of this one before.
2) While I suppose a Rebel should not mind too much about prestige, Rebels are absorbed for various reasons and not all of them have such high morals. It is definitely true the Mon Cals, being the biggest and most powerful in the fleet, is the most prestigious position available. Barring people from positions, especially prestigious ones, is in itself a form of favoritism, and everyone knows favoritism is NOT conducive to combat efficiency.

Nor does it strike me as racist, that just seems like oversensitivity to me, the MC's are converting some ships and they are designing a new model from scratch, so no problemo.

Their new model didn't fix the problem. Their new model AFTER their new model fixed the problem (if you assume discrete classes.)

[His Divine Shadow]

Which you couldn't prove would be greatly (or even significantly) delayed by choosing to install all-species usable stuff.

Nor could you prove differently either, you argue that the fact that ships exist who have been converted proves your position, I argue that it means the exact opposite because only a few ships have been converted and the almost every MC ship is crewed entierly by MonCals.

There are enough Whites, so it is OK to retain a discriminatory policy.

I wish you'd stop trying to pull that racial analogy, it pisses me off and tries to make something out of nothing, infact it's such a blatant misrepresentation that it so greatly aggrevates me to you see you pulling such cheapshots that soon I'm gonna be burning crosses and dressing in white and lynching black people just because of this, or I might just be really really pissed at you like forever and ever.

A better analogy would be that there's no need to let women in the service because it's a war on now and think of all the things that needs changing, there's no reason for it, oh hip-hoorah for equality and all that shit, but let's wait until the war is over, ok hun? Go make me a sandwich.

It'd be nice if that ship actually solved the problem, but it didn't (the MC80B).

I was talking about the Mc90 myself, then again I also do not see a problem. I also do not see why the MonCals should be forced to comply with the wishes of what is essentially leeches who want to hitch a ride for something as vain as prestige when they are out there laying down their lifes and cranking out ships as much as they can for you.
So they give the ungratefull alliance bastards a compromise until they come out with the MC90.

Just not completely, which just shows continuing the discriminatory policy is most likely NOT due to any major technical problem.

Assumption on your part ofcourse, I could as easily argue out of ignorance, just like you do, that it suggest there is a major technlological problem and they only made those alterations because they where easier and did not require a highly effective or fast input to the computer systems, or otherwise much contact with them.
Both works, none is proven.

1) Equality with exceptions is not equality. I'm sure you've heard of this one before.

I never strive for equality, but superiority, and the alliance was striving for superioty over the Imperial Navy, equality kinda takes a backseat then.

2) While I suppose a Rebel should not mind too much about prestige, Rebels are absorbed for various reasons and not all of them have such high morals. It is definitely true the Mon Cals, being the biggest and most powerful in the fleet, is the most prestigious position available. Barring people from positions, especially prestigious ones, is in itself a form of favoritism, and everyone knows favoritism is NOT conducive to combat efficiency.

Or it's just a by-product of the harsh realities of war and strapped resources, maybe it's a simple fact that the MonCals really do handle their own ships best on their own, maybe it's recognized that it's their ships, it's their GIFT, don't start bitching to people willing to lay down their lifes for you that they are speciest scum because they aren't in a hurry to start converting their ships.

Their new model didn't fix the problem. Their new model AFTER their new model fixed the problem (if you assume discrete classes.)

Thats the Mc90 then.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Nor could you prove differently either, you argue that the fact that ships exist who have been converted proves your position, I argue that it means the exact opposite because only a few ships have been converted and the almost every MC ship is crewed entierly by MonCals.

That, and the fact the discretely stated items of difference are NOT that big a deal.

I wish you'd stop trying to pull that racial analogy, it pisses me off and tries to make something out of nothing, infact it's such a blatant misrepresentation that it so greatly aggrevates me to you see you pulling such cheapshots that soon I'm gonna be burning crosses and dressing in white and lynching black people just because of this, or I might just be really really pissed at you like forever and ever.

Yet you could not quote any real differences. This whole "There are lots of <Advantaged Group A>" shit can be used to justify a lot of discriminatory exclusions. Which is precisely why I chose that counter. If you never use that argument again, it removes the need for me to write this.

A better analogy would be that there's no need to let women in the service because it's a war on now and think of all the things that needs changing, there's no reason for it, oh hip-hoorah for equality and all that shit, but let's wait until the war is over, ok hun? Go make me a sandwich.

Your analogy is false on several counts:
1) It presumes major resource expenditure is required.
2) It presumes that excluded species are excluded from all positions.
3) It presumes there are no practical advantages to the allowance of new groups into the fray.

Try this: "We already have women in the Service and on the ships. Most of our ships (including all our newbuilds) have made most areas accessible to them (thus most of the cost and experimentation on this had been done successfully.) But let's keep them off the bridge because there's a war on now. Even though we really need the best people (regardless of gender) on our best ship's bridges and past experiences suggest that making changes is not difficult and may even be a mere option to implement on the next newbuild, let's wait until the War where we Expound we like Equality is over, thus making us look like hypocrites, as well as potentially decreasing our Fleet's combat efficiency by excluding what might be a capable female officer on the bridge - and by extension severely hindering their further progress. And because of that, a less capable male officer might be promoted in her stead, to the DETERIMENT of our Fleet!!!"

I was talking about the Mc90 myself, then again I also do not see a problem.

I personally am thinking of the MC80B.

I also do not see why the MonCals should be forced to comply with the wishes of what is essentially leeches who want to hitch a ride for something as vain as prestige

And equality?

Why are employers on our planet forced to adhere (at least in theory) to Anti-Discrimination Guidelines and Regulations? Could it be ... discrimination is WRONG, and ultimately INEFFICIENT?

And perhaps because as a member of the Rebel Alliance, they've already signed a Treaty that says they are ultimately answerable to such leadership as Mon Mothma?

If they are such xenophobes, perhaps they shouldn't be allying with anyone in the first place.

when they are out there laying down their lifes and cranking out ships as much as they can for you. So they give the ungratefull alliance bastards a compromise until they come out with the MC90.

The fact they might be putting out their lives building ships might mean overall they are good people. It does not mean they are not racist.

I don't understand why when I propose Mon Cals are racist, rather than try to come up with rational explanations of why their policies aren't racist, they tend to give me red herrings about how hardworking and otherwise contributive they are.

Assumption on your part ofcourse, I could as easily argue out of ignorance, just like you do, that it suggest there is a major technlological problem and they only made those alterations because they where easier and did not require a highly effective or fast input to the computer systems, or otherwise much contact with them.
Both works, none is proven.

Bridges are basically mere command interfaces, and again I must point out:
1) Mon Cals do not have major problems using multi-species capable systems. In fact, they can do it to the point of driving Starfighters, which is no doubt much more reliant on "fast, effective input" than a Bridge Console Interface.
2) Clearly Known difficulties are not that difficult to get by. Certainly you can create Phantom Difficulties, but that violates Occam's Razor.

I never strive for equality, but superiority, and the alliance was striving for superioty over the Imperial Navy, equality kinda takes a backseat then.

Oh, I see. The Mon Calamari actually strive for superiority of their species.

And how many times do I have to suggest to you that eliminating racism is not only the Right Thing to Do, but in the long run especially, it is also the Efficient Thing to Do, and thus it is the Pragmatic, Logical Thing to Do to Enhance Superiority over the Imperial Fleet?

Or it's just a by-product of the harsh realities of war and strapped resources,

Even though available data suggest that it would take little or no extra drain on the "strapped resources" to make the change, and making the change would allow for more efficient use of their "strapped resources?"

maybe it's a simple fact that the MonCals really do handle their own ships best on their own,

Yes, of course, but no one else could USE those interfaces!

How about actually proving that by Competition, rather than by virtue of making indecipherable interfaces?

maybe it's recognized that it's their ships, it's their GIFT, don't start bitching to people willing to lay down their lifes for you that they are speciest scum because they aren't in a hurry to start converting their ships.

I see, so if you were employed but was discriminated against, you would think it is some kinda gift that you were employed, and never bitch about it?

It is a gift, and as I've said before, even if the Mon Cals came out and said aloud they made their ships that way because they are racists, I think the RA would take them anyway.

Perhaps you don't realize this, but every time you use this argument you basically said "The Mon Cals have the right to be racist, because they are providing the money."

In effect, you are trying to legitimize Discrimination.

Replace "Mon Cal" with "Employer" and you might start seeing the problem. It might be his Right. That's not the same as saying he's not racist or discriminatory, or that he's not an ass.

[His Divine Shadow]

That, and the fact the discretely stated items of difference are NOT that big a deal.

Evidence? I've yet to see it not being a big deal, infact what I've seen hints that it's probably not easy at all.
If it was easy they could convert as many of their ships as they wanted except the bridges and thereby saving MonCal lifes and keeping their status, but the vast majority of ships uses MonCals for everything from bridge work to weapons systems.

Yet you could not quote any real differences. This whole "There are lots of <Advantaged Group A>" shit can be used to justify a lot of discriminatory exclusions. Which is precisely why I chose that counter. If you never use that argument again, it removes the need for me to write this.

I have quoted differences, but I don't even see any discrimination, I just see things practically and pragmatically.

Your analogy is false on several counts:
1) It presumes major resource expenditure is required.
2) It presumes that excluded species are excluded from all positions.
3) It presumes there are no practical advantages to the allowance of new groups into the fray.

Just like you presume the opposite.

Try this: "We already have women in the Service and on the ships. Most of our ships (including all our newbuilds) have made most areas accessible to them (thus most of the cost and experimentation on this had been done successfully.) But let's keep them off the bridge because there's a war on now. Even though we really need the best people (regardless of gender) on our best ship's bridges and past experiences suggest that making changes is not difficult and may even be a mere option to implement on the next newbuild, let's wait until the War where we Expound we like Equality is over, thus making us look like hypocrites, as well as potentially decreasing our Fleet's combat efficiency by excluding what might be a capable female officer on the bridge - and by extension severely hindering their further progress. And because of that, a less capable male officer might be promoted in her stead, to the DETERIMENT of our Fleet!!!"

It's a pretty big gamble to start making all those changes in war time because some female officer might be good.
And then there's the fact that there are plenty of ships in the RA Navy for them to serve on.

And equality?

Equality that might come only at the cost of efficiency in this case then.
This is what you toss away even though the evidence hints this being the case and instead use your own preconcieved assumptions as truths.

Why are employers on our planet forced to adhere (at least in theory) to Anti-Discrimination Guidelines and Regulations? Could it be ... discrimination is WRONG, and ultimately INEFFICIENT?

And perhaps because as a member of the Rebel Alliance, they've already signed a Treaty that says they are ultimately answerable to such leadership as Mon Mothma?[/quote]

And she did what exactly about this? Maybe she was sensible enough to see there wasn't issue here in the first place?

If they are such xenophobes, perhaps they shouldn't be allying with anyone in the first place.

They're not just blowing stuff out of proportion like you are doing whilst claiming there are no problems.

The fact they might be putting out their lives building ships might mean overall they are good people. It does not mean they are not racist.

I don't understand why when I propose Mon Cals are racist, rather than try to come up with rational explanations of why their policies aren't racist, they tend to give me red herrings about how hardworking and otherwise contributive they are.

Uhm maybe because you try and invent racism where none exists?

Bridges are basically mere command interfaces, and again I must point out:
1) Mon Cals do not have major problems using multi-species capable systems. In fact, they can do it to the point of driving Starfighters, which is no doubt much more reliant on "fast, effective input" than a Bridge Console Interface.

Yes MonCals can use other interfaces, can other species do vice versa?

2) Clearly Known difficulties are not that difficult to get by. Certainly you can create Phantom Difficulties, but that violates Occam's Razor.

Much like you assume it's all going to be easy as pie, which I think is oversimplification of the issue.

Oh, I see. The Mon Calamari actually strive for superiority of their species.

One of them told you?

And how many times do I have to suggest to you that eliminating racism is not only the Right Thing to Do, but in the long run especially, it is also the Efficient Thing to Do, and thus it is the Pragmatic, Logical Thing to Do to Enhance Superiority over the Imperial Fleet?

Sure, if there's any racism to begin with, which there isn't, merely practical issues in times of war.

Even though available data suggest that it would take little or no extra drain on the "strapped resources" to make the change, and making the change would allow for more efficient use of their "strapped resources?"

The available data suggests the exactly opposite to me, so don't tout your interpreptation as truth.
So far all this seems to me like a classic "making a mountain out of an anthill" scenario.

Yes, of course, but no one else could USE those interfaces!
How about actually proving that by Competition, rather than by virtue of making indecipherable interfaces?

This is a war, this about surviving.

I see, so if you were employed but was discriminated against, you would think it is some kinda gift that you were employed, and never bitch about it?

But fighting a war is not the same thing as having a job, but an analogy would be "Oh well the company is in tight spot right now, and we can't really give you a position there because you're not trained for those systems or physically able to use them, and converting them at this junction in time is not an effective use of resources, later when we have more money and less pressing issues we can do it, until then we have many equal positions elsewhere that involves the same thing and even pays the same, your request is noticed for future referenc"

It is a gift, and as I've said before, even if the Mon Cals came out and said aloud they made their ships that way because they are racists, I think the RA would take them anyway.
Perhaps you don't realize this, but every time you use this argument you basically said "The Mon Cals have the right to be racist, because they are providing the money."

In effect, you are trying to legitimize Discrimination.

No I realize they don't have to be pushed, I realize it's an utterly trivial issue blown out of proportion.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Evidence? I've yet to see it not being a big deal, infact what I've seen hints that it's probably not easy at all.
If it was easy they could convert as many of their ships as they wanted except the bridges and thereby saving MonCal lifes and keeping their status, but the vast majority of ships uses MonCals for everything from bridge work to weapons systems.

Yet by the time of RASB, most of the ships have been converted that way, so as to satisfy the statement! Your supporting statement is untimed, and could easily refer to a time when most of the ships in service were pre-Alliance conversions. I never said ripping open an already converted ship is going to be easy, and am even willing to grant them a "waiver" for that, remember?

It's a pretty big gamble to start making all those changes in war time because some female officer might be good.
And then there's the fact that there are plenty of ships in the RA Navy for them to serve on.

Again you presume big changes are necessary. The fact there are plenty of other ships suggest those female (or other species) commanders would have been PROVEN, thus making any "gamble" a lot less risky, would it?

Equality that might come only at the cost of efficiency in this case then. This is what you toss away even though the evidence hints this being the case and instead use your own preconcieved assumptions as truths.

Pot. Kettle. Black. I've pointed out clear potential advantages, and all you could do is postulate a self-made scenario in which it might be pragmatic not to convert.

And she did what exactly about this? Maybe she was sensible enough to see there wasn't issue here in the first place?

More pragmatically, what could she do? You are right in one thing - the Mon Calamari get to dictate the terms. It doesn't mean they are Right, just that it is Their Right - otherwise known as Might Makes Right, got it?

If they are such xenophobes, perhaps they shouldn't be allying with anyone in the first place.

Uhm maybe because you try and invent racism where none exists?

I'm more than happy to drop the charge of racism. However, as of this moment, I've yet to hear a sensible explanation that is not a self-made scenario.

Yes MonCals can use other interfaces, can other species do vice versa?

Right, I'd assume the fact the Mon Cals seem OK on Universal Interfaces equates they'd work well on all interfaces, including any species-specific interfaces (which the species hopefully kept for mostly domestic use.)

Much like you assume it's all going to be easy as pie, which I think is oversimplification of the issue.

The fact they have done it to the rest of the ship suggests it is an Affordable Difficulty at least.

This is a war, this about surviving.

Correct. And not using the best officers for the job is not maximizing your chances of survival. What's so hard to understand about that?

But fighting a war is not the same thing as having a job, but an analogy would be "Oh well the company is in tight spot right now, and we can't really give you a position there because you're not trained for those systems or physically able to use them, and converting them at this junction in time is not an effective use of resources, later when we have more money and less pressing issues we can do it, until then we have many equal positions elsewhere that involves the same thing and even pays the same, your request is noticed for future referenc"

Anybody that thinks that Command of a Frigate (which because all the cruisers are sealed up by Mon Cals is the highest another species could hope for) is equal to the comand of a Cruiser needs help.

Try this analogy: "Aspo-san. The Company is in a real tight spot right now and needs the very best people at the helm in charge of that new department we are setting up. All we have to do to make it work out for you is to install an English OS which everyone understands rather than a Japanese OS which only we understand. Because it is a new installation, one would not cost much more than the other. And I know you are a highly capable guy. But we can't use you there, because we must install a Japanese OS there. So I'm afraid I'd have to assign you to head the Janitor's Department, where they have an English-only typewriter. Perhaps in the far off future, we'd start our new departments using English OS. For now, please go and work with the toilet cleaners. After all, it is still a "Head" position."