Dark Empire: Like it or Leave it?

[Illuminatus Primus]

That cuts both ways. If Zahn was told about DE after HttE was already published (just like KJA) then here a few things that are going to make Zahn look like an idiot;

I don't think Zahn would have needed to do any "persuading" if his book was already being published.

The Empire is now no longer on the outer finge of the Galaxy but in its core.

Hey Zahn had no problem sending the Empire magically from the Deep Core (Darksaber) to the fringe (Hand of Thrawn duology).

[Crown]

That cuts both ways. If Zahn was told about DE after HttE was already published (just like KJA) then here a few things that are going to make Zahn look like an idiot;

I don't think Zahn would have needed to do any "persuading" if his book was already being published.

Errr, what?

The Empire is now no longer on the outer finge of the Galaxy but in its core.

Hey Zahn had no problem sending the Empire magically from the Deep Core (Darksaber) to the fringe (Hand of Thrawn duology).

As opposed to KJA 'sending the Empire magically from the fringe to the Deep Core'? KJA could have very easily referenced DE without moving the Empire from one region to another, you do realise that he totally fucked up there right?

[Crown]

The REASON Zahn refused to change his timeline was explained. You continue to ignore it. The EU wasn't established back then as it is today. Comics had FUCK-ALL to do with novel continuity when Zahn started his work. Then at the last minute, as a hard working author constructs a well structured story, he's told to CHANGE it? For a stupid COMIC? I'd say fuck no too.

Oh, I see, even though the other author has been working for longer, because the comic is stupid. Point was, there WAS continuity, and they weren't going to let things just happen willy nilly.

Bullshit, there wasn't continuity for failing to tell Zahn about DE, and they didn't allow things to happen willy nilly afterwards although even here, there was some problems because even KJA didn't recieve any details about DE until well into his writting process, and authors like Wolverton all agreed that Coruscant was where the NR was, and the core was apart of the NR and not Empire.

[Currald]

Fuck it. Both TTT and DE turned out great (for, you know, Star Wars EU stuff, not from a classic literature standpoint). The ins and outs of who knew what when are not very interesting to me. Frankly, I'm more concerned about when Bush knew whether the Iraqi WMDs existed before he invaded, but that point is basically moot now, too.

I thought that DE was one of the best things that the EU contains. I should mention that I haven't read anything SW related recently (in the last 5 years). The art was unusual and distinctive. Luke's brush with the Dark Side was interesting and very dangerous for him. The new ships were bitchin'. My only objection was that R2 and 3PO weren't funny! They completely failed to provide any comic relief in what was a relentlessly depressing story.

[Utsanomiko]

I have to agree with Ghost Rider more or less; I liked DE's story and was interesting to read (DE II had some issues in that department, though not nearly as bad as Kevin J. 'who wants another Death Star?' Anderson's inane story ideas).

Cam Kennedy's artwork is real hit-miss-miss-miss, though. Sometimes there are some close-up elements that are good, minus the fact each panel is done in one single boring color hue (just because there's a purplish red neon sign at a bar on Nar Shadda doesn't mean everything on the whole goddamn moon has to be purplish red). Anything that doesn't have foreground-level attention to detail looks terrible and is never reproduced the same way twice (like how none of the ships never look the same or many people in long shots have obese potato-people proportions. Chewbacca is pear-shaped half the time).

For an EU comic, it's quite good. I might want to listen to the audio drama, at the very least to hear the story w/o having to look at a green Falcon all the time.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Bullshit, there wasn't continuity for failing to tell Zahn about DE, and they didn't allow things to happen willy nilly afterwards although even here, there was some problems because even KJA didn't recieve any details about DE until well into his writting process,

You have no evidence either way. I'm inclined to side with Vietch being further along in the production process since his project began in '87 or so, years earlier. But I'm willing to hold off on the off-chance that Zahn, in fact, did not find out until his novel was almost off to print.

and authors like Wolverton all agreed that Coruscant was where the NR was, and the core was apart of the NR and not Empire.

That's because Bantam was fucked up and because Zahn's refusal was accepted and DE was what got shoehorned. You're describing a Symptom of the problem, not the Cause.

[Illuminatus Primus]

As opposed to KJA 'sending the Empire magically from the fringe to the Deep Core'? KJA could have very easily referenced DE without moving the Empire from one region to another, you do realise that he totally fucked up there right?

What the fuck are you talking about? The resurgent Empire under Palpatine during Operation SHADOW HAND as portrayed in Dark Empire was administrated from the Imperial enclaves in the Deep Core after Thrawn's holdings on the Rim withered. Guess where Anderson has the Empire after Dark Empire? Yup, the Deep Core. Because the last source had it there. Darksabre was still even after that, again.

THEN, Zahn wrote The Hand of Thrawn duology, and moved the Empire back out to the Rim, which on last notice had been in the Deep Core, in accordance with Darksabre, Jedi Academy Trilogy, and Dark Empire in reverse chronological order.

There was no reason or real need for this other than Zahn wanted it to be so (the best I can guess is he wanted the Empire to be near the Unknown Regions for his Chiss thing; guess he forgot the galaxy is three-dimensional and an Empire in the Deep Core could still border (and does) Unknown Regions above and below the bulge).

It was Anderson, who later wrote The Essential Chronology who had to come up with a reason why the Empire magically moved from the Deep Core where it had been since Palpatine's final death to the fringe without any stated reason whatsoever, so he said Pelleaon abandoned the Deep Core for more established territories and oppurtunities on the Outer Rim.

[FTeik]

IIRC, "Planet of Twilight" would disagree, that imperial holdings post-DE are limited to the deep core.

The same goes for CTD, where it is said, that the empire still controls almost a fifth of the galaxy (AFTER BFC) and that is way to much for only the DeepCore.

[Illuminatus Primus]

IIRC, "Planet of Twilight" would disagree, that imperial holdings post-DE are limited to the deep core.

Those are the Fortress Worlds, numbnuts. Y'know, like Carida, which had already been awknowledged before.

The same goes for CTD, where it is said, that the empire still controls almost a fifth of the galaxy (AFTER BFC) and that is way to much for only the DeepCore.

Got any evidence that says the galactic bulge isn't around 20% of the galactic volume?

[FTeik]

I´m not talking about a few single worlds, i´m talking about entire sectors, which - contrary to your tiring bitching - are still imperial and that after DE.

As for your idea about those twenty percent being part of the VOLUME of the galactic bulge, why not, but such quotes usually refer to what the space contains (since empty space has no use to anybody) and since there are already imperial territories outside the deep core, it is only logical, that those are included in a such a quote (until you want to claim, that the remaining eight sectors seen in HoT are somehow new conquered territory between PoT and HoT).

Aside from that, it makes sense for the empire to abondon the resource-poor deep core and concentrate on the better resource-base outer and middle rim would be.

[Connor MacLeod]

In addition to that, there is also the fact that the Empire fought over Adumar (unless one thinks the Deep Core was able to actually defend Adumar frrom a grgeat distance!), the Pentestar Alignment (An Outer Rim empire contemporary to Thrawn AND DArk Empire, and which KJA also mentions in the Chronology later on) as well as Crimson Empire's Interim Council (the capital of which was on a freaking RESORT planet - somehow I question whether the Deep Core has many resort planets - and that Empire had at least one Sector to its name)

As a small side note to planet of twilight (which may or may not really bear directly on the issue - I happen to think it indicates that one cannot blame Zahn ALONE for it - or at least there is no direct evidence that it is strictly Zahn's fault) we know that Hambly and Kube-McDowell confuse the whole "Deep Core" empire by having Daala alternately in charge at the time of the Yevethan Crisis, and somehow in exile having given up control of the Deep Core Empire - or at least its military (Planet of Twilight and Darksaber.)

[Illuminatus Primus]

I´m not talking about a few single worlds, i´m talking about entire sectors, which - contrary to your tiring bitching - are still imperial and that after DE.

I'm sure Carida supported itself all by its lonesome. If you read the sourcebooks and the Essential Guide, they make it clear there are clutches of worlds on the Outer Rim which identify as Imperial but have no fleet and aren't under the auspices of the reunified Empire.

Besides, we were just talking about how the WHOLE EMPIRE moved from the Deep Core to Outer Rim at the drop of the hat, YOU YOURSELF quote that the Empire is worth 1/5 of the galaxy, and then you bring up two sectors in a galaxy of "thousands of sectors" as somehow some great evidence against that Zahn moved the whole Empire back out.

As for your idea about those twenty percent being part of the VOLUME of the galactic bulge, why not, but such quotes usually refer to what the space contains (since empty space has no use to anybody) and since there are already imperial territories outside the deep core, it is only logical, that those are included in a such a quote (until you want to claim, that the remaining eight sectors seen in HoT are somehow new conquered territory between PoT and HoT).

Alright, the Meridian and Antemeridian sectors are part of "twenty percent"? Again, you think two sectors breaks the back of everything else going on? And besides, its you who said that the 20% can't be primarily in the Deep Core. You're disagreeing, so you give me your model. Hell you think 20% is a bad number. Give me a reason why.

Moreover, Daala attacked the Moff. She wasn't hostile to Pelleaon, so I doubt he was part of the Empire-proper.

Aside from that, it makes sense for the empire to abondon the resource-poor deep core and concentrate on the better resource-base outer and middle rim would be.

I don't care about the internal-logic of the Empire. I simply stated that the EC fix about the Empire magically transplanting itself from the Core to the Outer Rim comes from Darksabre to Spectre of the Past.

[Connor MacLeod]

P.S. Connor, suck my cock.

Considering how far you've had your head shoved up your ass during this discussion, I would have assumed that you would be able to bend the other way and suck your own pencil-dick, trollboy. Guess that I was assuming too much from your limited capacities, as usual.

I've had a lot of work to do with little time for a drawn-out response to an in-progress debate and was waiting on Genghis to send me the Adventure Journal quote. So kindly, fuck off.

Translation: I WAS going to let it go, but then my fragile pride got challenged so I had to come back and try to make it look like I am presenting a factual argument, rather than reacting like a childish fucktard.

Frankly, I don't give a shit if you hate Zahn and you think he's as bad as you claim he is, but stop trying to pass it off as if it were factual rather than your irrational obsessions. Of course, why let a little thing like "logic" get in the way of your ranting, right?

Edit: Does anyone else like the fact that Primey deflectd attention from the fact that he was blaming Zahn for Dark Empire by bringing up the Deep Core? Clearly where Zahn is concerned, he'll do anything to cling to his irrational delusions.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Translation: I WAS going to let it go, but then my fragile pride got challenged so I had to come back and try to make it look like I am presenting a factual argument, rather than reacting like a childish fucktard.

Whatever, Freud. And when you have a smoke break from being an asshole, give me a loan at that spyglass you got. That shit's got awesome range.

Frankly, I don't give a shit if you hate Zahn and you think he's as bad as you claim he is, but stop trying to pass it off as if it were factual rather than your irrational obsessions. Of course, why let a little thing like "logic" get in the way of your ranting, right?

You didn't do any of the arguing on this thread. You're the one who started with personal attacks and whining and the psychoanalysis.

I don't run around discharging my colon through my mouth because someone takes several days to reply to a thread. Idiot.

At least Poe found something, rather than simply stating: "IP DOESN'T LIKE ZAHN, OMG!!111" Who the fuck cares? What matters is if I can substanciate it. Everything I said was said by Zahn himself and Handley, yet I'm delusional? You're facing the wrong end of the bong here, fuckhead.

The only thing we're lacking is when Zahn knew of DE. And quite frankly, I don't possibly see how Dark Empire could be less far ahead than Heir to the Empire in production since it'd been in the works for years longer.

The point still stands. It is Zahn's fault that Dark Empire was moved to after Heir to the Empire because he refused to reference it in his novel. That's a fact.

The only point of contention is whether Zahn was justified because LFL didn't tell him til his book was about to print, which we don't know. Either way its still because of his refusal that it got moved.

So how am I delusional? Oh but it doesn't matter if you justify your gorilla-style shitfits, all that matters is that you get to follow me around and harass me. Yeah I have some pet peeves in SW debate, and Zahn's one of them. I wouldn't have said anything else, but Fteik melts down everytime anyone says anything bad about his baby. Oh well. I WAS right, and it WAS because of Zahn that DE got moved.

So I reiterate: suck my cock.

Edit: Does anyone else like the fact that Primey deflectd attention from the fact that he was blaming Zahn for Dark Empire by bringing up the Deep Core? Clearly where Zahn is concerned, he'll do anything to cling to his irrational delusions.

Crown didn't read his damn sources and leaped upon what was supposed to just be a sarcastic quip on one of his "what, you expect Zahn to do this?" challenges.

[FTeik]

My baby?

That is to much of a compliment, since you´re going through the ceiling everytime Zahn and DarkEmpire are mentioned in the same sentence or post (and the last two pages of this thread show this rather nicely).

You´re arguing, that it is Zahn´s fault, that DE had to be set back? That might be right, but do you know, how far HttE had already been completed? If DE hadn´t been positioned after HttE Zahn would have been forced to change the entire plot of delivering Leia´s children to C´Baoth, the delivery and attempts of turning Luke Skywalker and so on. That is a lot more, than changing a few chapters. Especially, if there was a shedule for print to met (something like this screwed up the final battle of the BFC).

And how was DE changed to make it fit? I have only the comic and the only things that appear to be changed are two lines in the opening-trailer added about the events of TTT (DE-Sourcebook and additional stuff are another matter). So what was the great sacrifice there?

Of course, for that had to be made up with the DESB. It had to be shown, that the reborn Palpatine was the unquestioned supervillain, who outclassed everybody else. Not that i would have had a problem with that, hadn´t it been done in such a clumsy way.

PS: According to Curtis Saxton´s TCs comment about the galaxy, according to DESB there are only a few hundred planets inside the deep core. So much for twenty percent of the galaxy.

PPS: Alright, Zahn is an asshole, who managed to cause the editors of LFL to bent over to his wishes. Speaks volumes of the balls of the man, if you ask me.

PPPS: Can it be, that Veitch got bitch-slapped by LFL for a story called "Lightsider"? I´m just asking out of interest.

[Lord Poe]

I am so fucking sick of every piece of shit that has "Star Wars" on it being shoe-horned into continuity. Every comic, game, preschool books, card games, bubble gum wrappers, etc. I just read on the official boards that the children's SW science books are considered continuity!!

FUCK the comics. When every EU asshole was ready to immolate Zahn because he dared change a name of some 10th tier character, and somehow hurt the continuity of something called "Red Sky, Blue Flame", I actually had to look that up. WTF is "Red Sky, Blue Flame"? Is it a novel? Nope. It's a goddamed SHORT STORY FROM A OUT OF PRINT GAME MAGAZINE.

I APPLAUD every victory Zahn squeezes out of Lucasfilm. 90% of the EU is FUCKING SHIT.

[Connor MacLeod]

You didn't do any of the arguing on this thread. You're the one who started with personal attacks and whining and the psychoanalysis.

What attack? I pointed out that you were engaging in yet another round of unwarranted Zahn bashing - care to point out how that is a personal attack when it is in fact TRUE? Particularily when you have done so on at least ONE other occasion (insofar as I am aware of.) The fact that others (Wayne and Crown, notably) have noticed this behaviour in you as well tends to justify this as well. As usual, you're just attempting to misrepresent things because you're getting backed into a corner. What's next? More accusations of my so called "Vendetta" against you?

I don't run around discharging my colon through my mouth because someone takes several days to reply to a thread. Idiot.

Says the fucktard who can't let go of his Zahn-bashing obsession and goes to any lengths to justify his irrationality.

At least Poe found something, rather than simply stating: "IP DOESN'T LIKE ZAHN, OMG!!111" Who the fuck cares? What matters is if I can substanciate it. Everything I said was said by Zahn himself and Handley, yet I'm delusional? You're facing the wrong end of the bong here, fuckhead.

Actually, I found out Wayne had some information relevant to the discussion and asked him to post it in this thread. You can even ask him about that.
For that matter, Crown ALSO got to posting the bit from the DE Trade Paperback before I could (which he can also verify, as I mentioned that VERY fact to him.)

The only thing we're lacking is when Zahn knew of DE. And quite frankly, I don't possibly see how Dark Empire could be less far ahead than Heir to the Empire in production since it'd been in the works for years longer.

Because you're so blinded by your hatred of Zahn that you are incapable of thinking properly (or at least the closest approximation to actual thought you are capable of.).

The point still stands. It is Zahn's fault that Dark Empire was moved to after Heir to the Empire because he refused to reference it in his novel. That's a fact.

The only point of contention is whether Zahn was justified because LFL didn't tell him til his book was about to print, which we don't know. Either way its still because of his refusal that it got moved.

Mindless repetition of a refuted argument does not make it any more true, Primey.

So how am I delusional? Oh but it doesn't matter if you justify your gorilla-style shitfits, all that matters is that you get to follow me around and harass me. Yeah I have some pet peeves in SW debate, and Zahn's one of them. I wouldn't have said anything else, but Fteik melts down everytime anyone says anything bad about his baby. Oh well. I WAS right, and it WAS because of Zahn that DE got moved.

First, I love your persecution complex - you've basically exaggerated my pointing out your little obsession into something it clearly is not - I do not "follow you around and harass you", since I rarely bother paying attention to what others, much less you, say in other forums and even in this one, I'm not leaping on every single thing you say as an excuse to bash you (yet another exaggeration.) Anyone can see THAT plainly enough. (Which is ironic, since you display the sort of mentality towards Zahn that you are accusing ME of.) And as I already pointed out, the fact that I am not the only one to notice on this or challenge you on your little rant tends to nullify the notion that it is "just me."

Secondly, not a "pet peeve". Its a fucking OBSESSION. This is the second time at LEAST that you've pulled this sort of shit, and its evident that I am not the only one to notice this (unless you think Crown and Wayne are also "harassing" you? Quick! better get the tinfoil hats - its a conspiracy!! )

So I reiterate: suck my cock.

And I reiterate: Bend over the other way and do it yourself, little man. Its probably the ONLY way you're going to get it done to you.

Crown didn't read his damn sources and leaped upon what was supposed to just be a sarcastic quip on one of his "what, you expect Zahn to do this?" challenges.

Ooooh. Big deal. Change "KJA" to "Dark Empire" - the point remains the same.

[Crown]

As opposed to KJA 'sending the Empire magically from the fringe to the Deep Core'? KJA could have very easily referenced DE without moving the Empire from one region to another, you do realise that he totally fucked up there right?

What the fuck are you talking about?

What do you mean 'what the fuck am I talking about'? I am talking about this;



This one fucking cell is what caused the whole magically moving the Empire from the rim to the core (overnight no less) and what is causing this fucking stupid irregularity. Here's something you had better get wise to really quick; Zahn's work was published and on shelves, this one cell managed to fuck everything up! But I don't hold it against Veitch at all, the guy had been kicked in the balls by LFL afterall (never mind the sheer ridiculous stupidity of not ammending one fucking cell to say; The planet Byss, far out in the rim ... and avoiding the whole fucking cluster fuck to begin with).

But KJA admits point fucking blank that he wasn't meant to contradict anything being set earlier than the JAT that he was aware of, what happened to Thrawn's holdings which were one quater of the fucking Galaxy Primus? Did they magically go tits up? Suddenly got sucked into the Maw cluster? Moved by the magic pixie fairy in the sky? WHAT?

KJA totally didn't deal with it, he infact flat out moved the Empire at his convinience. He could have had two 'Imperial' territories; one which was left over from Thrawn under the Moff Council and Admiral Palleon that had some semblance of order and cohesion, and another one filled with petty warlords and rivalries for Dalaa to come up and make her grand powerplay for. But he didn't!

He totally threw away the baby with the bath water - and ruined the continuity as a result.

In TTT we are told of major imperial systems, strongholds, shipyards, etc. They were never mentioned in any EU material as being overtaken by the NR, so when Zahn came back to write the duology he remembered that Thrawn had one quater of the galaxy, a quater which is still un-acounted for, so he set up shop there. WHICH IS WHERE IT SHOULD ALL HAVE BEEN.

No amount of hand waving from you is going to change these facts;

• Right or wrong, selfish or a terrible misunderstanding; Zahn was given the go ahead infront of Veitch by LFL.
• Veitch was asked to change his story to not contradict (he ended up anyway, but it was still salvageable at this point by portraying Thrawn as a pawn in the Reborn Emperor's schemes, a willing servant or even a traitor).
• KJA was told the same thing and he fucked up entirely.

By the time Zahn comes back it is 7 years after Darksabre, 10 years after TTT, the massive amount of territory that Thrawn had, hasn't been mentioned to have been claimed in its entirety by the NR, ergo it's still there.

And so help me; if you even mention a 'source book' of some kind I am going to kill you. The whole point of me reading a story is that I should be entertained and informed entirely within this story, I shouldn't have to (and I won't) go out and by a fucking 'source book' to help me understand. Because if I didn't understand, then either I am thick, or the author failed to write a coherant medium. The sheer fact that one was on the NY bestseller's list 6 weeks, that sold out around the world and touched a legion more of fans, and the other is only aimed at a select group which can boast 100,000 copies is enough for me to decide who is at fault here, and how much I care about it.

[Illuminatus Primus]

This one fucking cell is what caused the whole magically moving the Empire from the rim to the core (overnight no less) and what is causing this fucking stupid irregularity. Here's something you had better get wise to really quick; Zahn's work was published and on shelves, this one cell managed to fuck everything up!

And Dark Empire was in the works since the late eighties. And besides, the idea that the Deep Core is even more centrally located than Coruscant is supported in the comic.

But KJA admits point fucking blank that he wasn't meant to contradict anything being set earlier than the JAT that he was aware of, what happened to Thrawn's holdings which were one quater of the fucking Galaxy Primus? Did they magically go tits up? Suddenly got sucked into the Maw cluster? Moved by the magic pixie fairy in the sky? WHAT?

What do you mean what happened to them?

[Admiral Ackbar:] Something very big is happening, Mon Mothma...we saw Imperial ships from both sides of the civil war vanishing into the uninhabited regions of the Galactic Core!

[General Dodonna:] The Deep Core systems have become inviolable fortresses. And the Imperial Navy has reaffirmed its allegiance to the Emperor. Now the Emperor plans to expand his area of dominance in stages--He will launch a series of wave assaults upon all worlds in proximity to the Galactic Core...

By the way: this clarifies what happened to all the Imperial factions--including Thrawn's--they were recalled to the Deep Core for preparation for Palpatine's wave assaults--Operation SHADOW HAND.

But let's not stop here. All the references to the Core elsewhere:

[Shug Ninx:] What's the deal here, Khan? They never let the Deep Core haulers dock planetside before.

[Salla Zend:] --We're entering the Deep Core security zone...

[Han Solo:] Listen, all we need is a ship that's legal for makin' a Deep Core run. The Alliance will pay 100,000 credits--in cash.

[Salla Zend:] Sounds intruguing, Solo. The Intruder is registered for Deep Core frieght hauling...

[Leia Organa Solo:] Luke is somewhere in the Deep Galactic Core...those regions have been sealed off by the Empire for decades...

[Han Solo:] We'll need then help of some people I know...people who have paid for permission to travel the Deep Core...

Yup, just fix that one cell, right?

Dark Empire makes even less sense if it is out on the Rim. Shit, where did Palpatine hide a throneworld surrounded with ships and shit since RoTJ? He didn't do a good job keeping Wayland secret. From Thrawn or the Republic. Where did he hide all the ships? The "Deep Core" versus the "Core Worlds" is not a post facto fix--it was the original stuff of Dark Empire; the idea that the thick impenetrable galactic bulge could've been a hideaway for Palpy.

This is why Dark Empire should have been before the capture of Coruscant, and the Thrawn Trilogy after Dark Empire; then at least Thrawn wouldn't have been rendered irrelevent by Palpatine's return.

KJA totally didn't deal with it, he infact flat out moved the Empire at his convinience. He could have had two 'Imperial' territories; one which was left over from Thrawn under the Moff Council and Admiral Palleon that had some semblance of order and cohesion, and another one filled with petty warlords and rivalries for Dalaa to come up and make her grand powerplay for. But he didn't!

Because ALL of the factions fell under Palpatine thrall and reunited with him when he returned. So sayeth Dark Empire.

He totally threw away the baby with the bath water - and ruined the continuity as a result.

Oh god, he followed Dark Empire when it said that the Imperial factions disappeared into the Deep Core. Implicitly, we know the Imperial factions realigned with the Deep Core, since the initial prologue states that the Ruling Circle (see: Thrawn's Empire) linked up with former Starfleet commanders (see: warlords), and took control of the Core Worlds, including Coruscant. Then these factions vanished into the Deep Core.

Oh, and the Moff Council didn't exist in TTT, its a post-Daala reunification thing. You see, back in TTT, Zahn thought that Thrawn could run a campaign, a fleet, and a government single-handedly.

In TTT we are told of major imperial systems, strongholds, shipyards, etc. They were never mentioned in any EU material as being overtaken by the NR, so when Zahn came back to write the duology he remembered that Thrawn had one quater of the galaxy, a quater which is still un-acounted for, so he set up shop there. WHICH IS WHERE IT SHOULD ALL HAVE BEEN.

Why? Because Zahn is inviolate and even though Vietch had set up the workings of the post-ROTJ Empire years earlier, everyone should toe Zahn's line (especially when he urinates over other authors' work?)

Besides, Dark Empire and the Dark Empire Sourcebook make it clear that all of the Imperial factions we recalled and reassembled at the Deep Core to sweep outward and take back the whole galaxy.

Right or wrong, selfish or a terrible misunderstanding; Zahn was given the go ahead infront of Veitch by LFL.

Yup, I know.

Veitch was asked to change his story to not contradict (he ended up anyway, but it was still salvageable at this point by portraying Thrawn as a pawn in the Reborn Emperor's schemes, a willing servant or even a traitor).

We KNOW Vietch had no time. Handley said he had to make some small edits "at the last minute."

KJA was told the same thing and he fucked up entirely. By the time Zahn comes back it is 7 years after Darksabre, 10 years after TTT, the massive amount of territory that Thrawn had, hasn't been mentioned to have been claimed in its entirety by the NR, ergo it's still there.

Well no, since Dark Empire, Dark Empire II, and Empire's End as well as the Dark Empire Sourcebook make it clear that Palpatine reorganized and recalled everything around the Deep Core, and then we know that it all imploded after Palpatine died from Crimson Empire.

I don't see how "no one specifically says that Tangrene (the only major world I can remember from TTT) is held by the NR, ergo Thrawn's 1/4 Empire should still be ticking out there" works.

Bilbringi for example, was explicitly stated to be taken.

And so help me; if you even mention a 'source book' of some kind I am going to kill you. The whole point of me reading a story is that I should be entertained and informed entirely within this story, I shouldn't have to (and I won't) go out and by a fucking 'source book' to help me understand. Because if I didn't understand, then either I am thick, or the author failed to write a coherant medium.

Obviously. Any time that something has to be ironed out by turning to the veritable library of secondary materials shit out by LFL, someone fucked up. This happens constantly. I don't like it, and quite frankly I have a very low opinion of Lucas Licensing.

The sheer fact that one was on the NY bestseller's list 6 weeks, that sold out around the world and touched a legion more of fans, and the other is only aimed at a select group which can boast 100,000 copies is enough for me to decide who is at fault here, and how much I care about it.

"He's more successful, therefore he's earned the right to control SW continuity and take a steaming shit on anyone else's work."

See, if Zahnites would just state the fact that they uphold his asshole behavior and love him for it, then we wouldn't have an argument, now would we?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Blah blah blah Connor.

I said you have Zahn to blame for the time crunch.

Its true, he convinced LFL to let him not reference it, so Vietch had to squeeze DE in there at the last minute.

Period. All I was going to make was a comment about it, akin to the typical prod about B&B's incompetence in PST, someone stating how continuity is shit in PSW, or something about fundies just about everywhere else.

But no, of course not, simply stating "You have Zahn to blame for that" was enough to bring you in to make your little baiting quip, and the rest of them whining because they think Zahn's the end all to be all of the EU (which I don't really contest--he's at least the second best writer in a very small group of decent ones). Well neither thing changes anything. The point of contention was whether it was because of Zahn that DE had to squeeze awkwardly between TTT and JAT. And I was fucking right. The only bit of ambiguity is how much time Zahn had. Either way it would not have been squeezed in except that he convinced LFL not to let him reference it, and no amount of bitching is going to make that untrue. Facts are stubborn.

[Crown]

And Dark Empire was in the works since the late eighties. And besides, the idea that the Deep Core is even more centrally located than Coruscant is supported in the comic.

Broken record much? I thought we already established by the references presented by Poe that Zahn didn't know about Veitch's work, because he wasn't told about it? What is this called Primus? An appeal to seniority? ... Moving on.

What do you mean what happened to them?

[Admiral Ackbar:] Something very big is happening, Mon Mothma...we saw Imperial ships from both sides of the civil war vanishing into the uninhabited regions of the Galactic Core!

<snip>

By the way: this clarifies what happened to all the Imperial factions--including Thrawn's--they were recalled to the Deep Core for preparation for Palpatine's wave assaults--Operation SHADOW HAND.

But let's not stop here. All the references to the Core elsewhere:

<snip 6 whole fucking cells, ooooh>

Yup, just fix that one cell, right?

Wow ... a few things.

1. Open word, click on Edit then scroll down to 'Replace'. Now in the 'Find what' field, type in Deep Core, and in the 'Replace with' field type in The Rim. You have to try harder than quoting 168 words to impress me here pal (of only about 9 of which are actually the word 'core'). It is a fucking graphic novel, it's not as if it goes into fucking depth here, change core to rim, no problem.

2. Wow, so all of Thrawn's territory (you know that one quater of the galaxy) moved into the uninhabitated (as Admiral Ackbar told us) core overnight? Jeez my estimation of the Empire's capabilities just went up a notch. Nevermind the fact that Thrawn was attacking and conquering farming planets in order to feed his ever growing army, the densly packed, radiated core will provide!

No wonder the Palpy was using droid everything when he came back; he abandoned the rest of the Imperial citizenry in that one quater of the galaxy that Thrawn ruled.

Dark Empire makes even less sense if it is out on the Rim. Shit, where did Palpatine hide a throneworld surrounded with ships and shit since RoTJ? He didn't do a good job keeping Wayland secret. From Thrawn or the Republic.

Yeah, he didn't do a good job of keeping it secret from one of 12 Grand Admirals who spent the better part of 1 year (or we could assume 5) tracking it down, and the person he took to see it personally. I mean apart from them two it was an open secret -- oh wait ... no it wasn't! Only them two knew! That kinda makes your above statement rather stupid doesn't it?

Where did he hide all the ships? The "Deep Core" versus the "Core Worlds" is not a post facto fix--it was the original stuff of Dark Empire; the idea that the thick impenetrable galactic bulge could've been a hideaway for Palpy.

Please tell me you are joking ... The Empire built it's DS in a fucking backwater shit hole, you telling me that a Galaxy so huge, it would be hard to hide anywhere?

This is why Dark Empire should have been before the capture of Coruscant, and the Thrawn Trilogy after Dark Empire; then at least Thrawn wouldn't have been rendered irrelevent by Palpatine's return.

Everything was rendered irrelevent by Palpatine's return, including Luke's right of passage in RotJ when he renounced the Dark Side, and then decides to join out of curiosity.

Because ALL of the factions fell under Palpatine thrall and reunited with him when he returned. So sayeth Dark Empire.

And Dark Empire also says that the Core is unihabitated! What happened to the Imperial citizens who were in the one quater of the Galaxy when Thrawn was in charge? Oh that's right, The Duology tells us that, silly me.

Oh god, he followed Dark Empire when it said that the Imperial factions disappeared into the Deep Core. Implicitly, we know the Imperial factions realigned with the Deep Core, since the initial prologue states that the Ruling Circle (see: Thrawn's Empire) linked up with former Starfleet commanders (see: warlords), and took control of the Core Worlds, including Coruscant. Then these factions vanished into the Deep Core.

Their fleets vanished into the Deep Core you idiot, not their entire populations! What are you so stuck up about that you can't see that as plain as the nose on your face?

Oh, and the Moff Council didn't exist in TTT, its a post-Daala reunification thing. You see, back in TTT, Zahn thought that Thrawn could run a campaign, a fleet, and a government single-handedly.

Ehh, 'rulling circle', 'Moff Council', tomaeto, tomahto.

Why? Because Zahn is inviolate and even though Vietch had set up the workings of the post-ROTJ Empire years earlier, everyone should toe Zahn's line (especially when he urinates over other authors' work?)

Besides, Dark Empire and the Dark Empire Sourcebook make it clear that all of the Imperial factions we recalled and reassembled at the Deep Core to sweep outward and take back the whole galaxy.

And again, it mentions nothing about the population of one quater of the Galaxy that was under the control of Thrawn. You are basically trying to say that if the USN suddenly moves all of it's ports to Crete, the US population will move with it ... BULLSHIT.

Yup, I know.

Finally common ground.

We KNOW Vietch had no time. Handley said he had to make some small edits "at the last minute."

Which is why I don't specifically blame Vietch, he mentioned fleets moving into the core, and the Imperial warlords uniting with the Ruling Council (Thrawn's heirs who controled that one quater of the Galaxy that was inhabited at the Rim), which is Fine!

A re-location of fleets is OK! I don't mind, it's the moving of the Imperial populace which KJA tries to do in the JAT and Darksabre which makes no sense!

Well no, since Dark Empire, Dark Empire II, and Empire's End as well as the Dark Empire Sourcebook make it clear that Palpatine reorganized and recalled everything around the Deep Core, and then we know that it all imploded after Palpatine died from Crimson Empire.

I don't see how "no one specifically says that Tangrene (the only major world I can remember from TTT) is held by the NR, ergo Thrawn's 1/4 Empire should still be ticking out there" works.

Bilbringi for example, was explicitly stated to be taken.

Because the Deep Core was said to be uninhabitated you dolt! A military needs a base to draw from, and that goes double for an Emprie, why am I explaining this to you?

Obviously. Any time that something has to be ironed out by turning to the veritable library of secondary materials shit out by LFL, someone fucked up. This happens constantly. I don't like it, and quite frankly I have a very low opinion of Lucas Licensing.

Something else I agree with.

"He's more successful, therefore he's earned the right to control SW continuity and take a steaming shit on anyone else's work."

See, if Zahnites would just state the fact that they uphold his asshole behavior and love him for it, then we wouldn't have an argument, now would we?

No you dipshit. He is more successful, his work is more widely read, don't try and fuck up major continuity. I didn't even know what Dark Empire was until after Specter of the Past when Zahn mentions a few things that were in it, and I dug around and found it.

That's the point.

If KJA wants to reference the events in Dark Empire, more power to him, but when he takes those references and completely fucks it up, in such a manner that you feel that you are in a different universe from the opening books (TTT), then that is not okay! (and Wedge behind a desk in charge of reconstruction -- puh-lease)

[Illuminatus Primus]

Broken record much? I thought we already established by the references presented by Poe that Zahn didn't know about Veitch's work, because he wasn't told about it? What is this called Primus? An appeal to seniority? ... Moving on.

You're acting like how dare he not change everything, and I'm saying, well give him a break, he'd only been working years longer than this other guy, and got precisely dick time to work with for fixing things.

1. Open word, click on Edit then scroll down to 'Replace'. Now in the 'Find what' field, type in Deep Core, and in the 'Replace with' field type in The Rim. You have to try harder than quoting 168 words to impress me here pal (of only about 9 of which are actually the word 'core'). It is a fucking graphic novel, it's not as if it goes into fucking depth here, change core to rim, no problem.

It makes no fucking sense if Palpatine hid his forces and himself with his throneworld amongst Thrawn's own Empire. There's a reason why the Dark Empire Sourcebook chose the fix it did.

2. Wow, so all of Thrawn's territory (you know that one quater of the galaxy) moved into the uninhabitated (as Admiral Ackbar told us) core overnight?

No, the forces withdrew from it, and in the downtime, the Republic had moved in and conquered territory, including warlord fiefdoms and a major shipyard at least--Bilbringi (Isard's Revenge).

Jeez my estimation of the Empire's capabilities just went up a notch.

Apparently Pelleaon could duplicate it because Zahn didn't want to deal with the fact that Dark Empire was after his book either (even though it was his actions which caused it to be), because the Empire had moved their forces to the Deep Core.

Nevermind the fact that Thrawn was attacking and conquering farming planets in order to feed his ever growing army, the densly packed, radiated core will provide!

What do you think all these Deep Core haulers are doing? Shipping porno pamphlets to keep the troops amused? When Coruscant was taken, the New Republic had to withdraw to Hutt Space; the Empire siezed control of many of its old worlds. It moved the Imperial bases and infrastructure from Thrawn's worlds to the Deep Core, and Thrawn's worlds joined the host of others which flocked under Palpatine's banner. Then when Palpy's Empire collapsed with his death, Thrawn's worlds were among the many which were abandoned for the Deep Core by the warlords.

No wonder the Palpy was using droid everything when he came back; he abandoned the rest of the Imperial citizenry in that one quater of the galaxy that Thrawn ruled.

Actually, all that territory imploded, and he acquired the citizenry of the entire Core Worlds regions and the Inner Rim, which are much more valuable than the shit on the Outer Rim, right next door to the New Republic's new doorstep (Hutt Space).

Yeah, he didn't do a good job of keeping it secret from one of 12 Grand Admirals who spent the better part of 1 year (or we could assume 5)

No, because other sources already said he had been in town maybe six months max before he found it.

tracking it down, and the person he took to see it personally. I mean apart from them two it was an open secret -- oh wait ... no it wasn't! Only them two knew! That kinda makes your above statement rather stupid doesn't it?

No, moron, because you're not getting the point. That was just an example. Maybe it was flawed. Oh I'm sorry. Point is, do you really think that a series of storehouses containing shipyards, fleets, etc. huge stores that would've rendered Thrawn's stealing and cloning unnecessary as well as a throneworld with Palpatine himself would simply have floated around in Thrawn's territory without him or anyone else being the wiser? Do you realize what you're suggesting? How could all that shit in Dark Empire be amongst the Empire in the Rim and Thrawn just didn't notice it?

Because Dark Empire was after TTT, Palpatine's hideaway and reserves HAD TO be hidden and where neither the Republic or Thrawn would've had access to them, or it make's Zahn's trilogy make no fucking sense.

Please tell me you are joking ... The Empire built it's DS in a fucking backwater shit hole, you telling me that a Galaxy so huge, it would be hard to hide anywhere?

We're talking about an entire Empire in miniature, a vast percentage of the Imperial Starfleet with its supportive infrastructure and logistical support, hundreds of worlds, a throneworld eminating with the Dark Side totally unnoticed by Luke or C'boath, massive research centres, shipyards--all of this hidden in and amongst Thrawn's territories--hundreds of habitable, useful worlds that just happen to be disregarded by an admiral with a shortage of resources--and you expect me to not laugh in your face?

Besides, this technology gives off ENORMOUS amounts of waste heat. Any world a few parsecs off would have detected the activity simply by IR. That's forgetting the chatter on subspace and Holonet, etc. That's forgetting any probe droid/recon jobs done by anyone during a fucking war...right.

Everything was rendered irrelevent by Palpatine's return, including Luke's right of passage in RotJ when he renounced the Dark Side, and then decides to join out of curiosity.

I don't think GL would've loved it so much and bought it for all his employees, and THEN cooperated with Vietch personally on later projects if he thought it was a total fuck-up of his vision.

And I'll take that over your literary opinion. Besides, it is a red herring to the debate. How much you like TTT over DE is irrelevent; I don't give a shit.

And Dark Empire also says that the Core is unihabitated!

It is uninhabited officially. The only people there are the people Palpatine took there as part of his plans.

What happened to the Imperial citizens who were in the one quater of the Galaxy when Thrawn was in charge?

Ok, first of all, for fuck's sake, one quarter is spelled "one quarter," not "one quater."

Secondly, what the fuck are you talking about? Bureaucracies and populations don't move much in SW. The worlds themselves switch allegiances, but there's no mass exodus of anyone. What happened to all the Imperial citizens everywhere after ROTJ?

And besides, the galaxy is composed of "thousands of sectors." One quarter of that is not "eight sectors." What Zahn showed you was maybe one hundredth of what the "one quarter of the galaxy" territory had been, so I don't see how he fixed your issue at all. I guess by your definitions we don't know anything about Tangrene, its stuck in TTT limbo because it wasn't mentioned in HoT. Generally, I think avoiding the same worlds over and over is a GOOD thing.

So what happened to Thrawn's territories? Well since Pelleaon did his usual thing and ran away after Bilbringi, the NR assaulted the Empire, took Bilbringi, and many other territories, and got to work on the warlord fiefdoms. Then Palpatine came back. The infrastructure, bases, and forces in Thrawn's territories are phased out or recalled in favor of the more extensive and intrenched positions in the Deep Core; as member worlds and supply depots, Thrawn's territories are incorporated with newly surrendered worlds all over the place. When Palpatine kicks the bucket, the warlords snatch up everything they can and retreat to their better defended redoubts in the Deep Core. The worlds are left to fend for themselves. Many are underdefended and are lost to the Republic or simply become nominally independent, either identifying as an Imperial world like Carida but unaffiliated with the warlords, or simply being neutral or aligned with the Republic but not a member. The duology doesn't fix this. It tells us that eight sectors of these worlds were snatched up by Pelleaon after he was accomplice to killing all those assholes in the Deep Core and taking what little was left out to those territories.

Oh that's right, The Duology tells us that, silly me.

Yeah, those eight sectors tell the story of "one quarter of a galaxy" of "thousands of sectors."

Their fleets vanished into the Deep Core you idiot, not their entire populations! What are you so stuck up about that you can't see that as plain as the nose on your face?

Who the fuck cares about their populations? The populations remain on their worlds, and their worlds shift allegiances with the tide of war. What the fuck is hard to understand about that? What, you can't write a novel without accounting for the population of every major world you mention? And besides, how does Zahn's eight-sector-Empire fix that worth two shits? What happened to Tangrene?

Ehh, 'rulling circle', 'Moff Council', tomaeto, tomahto.

Some guy made them two different things.

And again, it mentions nothing about the population of one quater of the Galaxy that was under the control of Thrawn. You are basically trying to say that if the USN suddenly moves all of it's ports to Crete, the US population will move with it ... BULLSHIT.

No, I'm saying the population is irrelevent. The population of the Empire circa A New Hope is the same population as the Republic/Empire at Heir to the Empire. The worlds simply changed allegiances.

Which is why I don't specifically blame Vietch, he mentioned fleets moving into the core, and the Imperial warlords uniting with the Ruling Council (Thrawn's heirs who controled that one quater of the Galaxy that was inhabited at the Rim), which is Fine!

By Empire's End, the Emperor succeeded in conquering almost the entire galaxy according to sources. All of that was abandoned after Palpatine died.

A re-location of fleets is OK! I don't mind, it's the moving of the Imperial populace which KJA tries to do in the JAT and Darksabre which makes no sense!

He does no such thing. He simply makes the moves and shakers of the Empire move to a more easily defended location. Those assholes stole everything they could and sneaked out to Palpy's storehouses where they could fight it out. They saw that they couldn't oppose the Republic from out there. When Palpatine shifted the center of power and operations, the post-Palpy warlords, unsurprisingly, were at the same center.

]Because the Deep Core was said to be uninhabitated you dolt! A military needs a base to draw from, and that goes double for an Emprie, why am I explaining this to you?

It was naturally uninhabited. The Essential Chronology and The Dark Empire Sourcebook repeat emphatically that Palpatine moved populations to the Deep Core during his reign (the OT). Obviously there had to be a civilian population--Byss has a fucking city! Obviously Palpatine's worlds had to be staffed and shit for six years he was holed up there.

No you dipshit. He is more successful, his work is more widely read, don't try and fuck up major continuity. I didn't even know what Dark Empire was until after Specter of the Past when Zahn mentions a few things that were in it, and I dug around and found it.

That's the point.

Appealing to his Success on the basis to judge what is responsible. I don't see how "how well Zahn did" has anything to do with the fact all this shit could have been avoided if he just referenced it, and went along, because then everything would have been referencing TTT as the last work, and it would've been a smoother transition.

If KJA wants to reference the events in Dark Empire, more power to him, but when he takes those references and completely fucks it up, in such a manner that you feel that you are in a different universe from the opening books (TTT), then that is not okay! (and Wedge behind a desk in charge of reconstruction -- puh-lease)

KJA is just an idiot.

[Crown]

You know, I just realised what I was doing wrong ... I was forgetting about all the other books between your oh-so-holly Darksabre and evil-Zahn's HoT duology ...

Blackfleet Crisis
Set: 3 years after Darksabre

Empire? No where to be seen.

Senetor Peramis, the Fifth Fleet was built to protect the New Republic, and for no other reason. We have no territorial aspirations, no hunger for conquest. How could we, with ten new applications for membership arriving every day?

Bad guys; Bad Guys from who know where.

Hardly conclusive evidence, I grant you, but bear with me.

The New Rebellion
Set: 4 years after Darksabre

Empire? Dead, or scattered.

We have always fought the Empire. But the Empire is gone now. Only bands remain.

Msst was a small planet near the Rim Worlds that had once been a major Imperial stronghold. The Empire had theoretically abandoned the place after the truce at Bakura, but Luke knew for a fact that many Imperials still used Msst for a rendezvous.

"Decisive and ruthless go together," Leia said, "but compassionate and ruthless do not. Is he tied to the Empire?"

"Not so far as I can tell at the moment," the lieutenant said. "Almania is very far away. The Emperor basically ignored it."

"But it would be a good site for Imperials to hide," Ackbar said. "I'll check."

Should I go on? Well really what's the point, since the entire political drama (if I can use the term loosely) is centered on former hard-core Imperials being allowed to be elected into the NR senate from new member core worlds (not specifically said as such, but implied).

Face it. The Core worlds ARE the most important, and they have either apparently all been liberated, or fell, or frealy joined the NR by the time of The New Rebellion, and the Empire is clearly stated to be 'running' or 'hiding' out on the rim before the HoT duology. All without Zahn being a prick no less!

[Illuminatus Primus]

The Deep Core != the Core Worlds.

[Crown]

The Deep Core != the Core Worlds.

Read Darksabre: Deep Core = Warlord's bases (nice little resort worlds where you can die of radiation poisoning if you don't live a metre below shielded walls), and Core = Imperial holdings.

By TNR, Empire ... gone and hiding out on the Rim.

I would address your previous post in detail, if it wasn't for the sheer ridiculousness of you claiming; relocation of Imperial territory in 1 year in order to serve DE purposes = A-O-K, relocation of Imperial territory 7 years after Darksabre = Zahn's an asshole.