Number of Capital Ships in the Empire

[Illuminatus Primus]

Why would NRI be so excited at identifying it if it weren't one of the missing ships?

Admiral Pelleaon deployed in amongst six ISDs in a pitched fleet battle; simply because the vessel may been some sort of technological proof-of-concept is not mutually exclusive with the fact she may be a formidable warship.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

I swear Publius, you're the best. Everyone is running around blowing their tops trying to get a point across, and here you are, slipping in queitly and delivering a cruishing blow in the most well-mannered post I think I may have ever seen. Kudos.

[PainRack]

And there is no evidence for it being a Dreadnaught-class CH. Your presumption that your position is the default assumption is arrogant, haughty, and beginning to piss me off incredibly.

Except for RPG data saying that it is.

Unfortunately, the stupid FAQ is down, so , no data on my site.

However, let's ask something. The anti-matter propulsion unit on the EXF was experimental. Why would they install a proof of concept drive, on such a large vessel as a Executor starship?

Is the same vessel as the Executor-class Star Dreadnaught, asshole. Don't grenade this topic.

Then don't grenade it asshole. It was classed Executor class Star Destroyer in the novel.

[PainRack]

The EX-F first appeared in a shipway at Black FIFTEEN, over N'zoth, where she was described as "a weapons and propulsion test bed built on a Dreadnaught hull" (p. 7). However, this is neatly contradicted by the description of Black FIFTEEN on the immediately preceding page; there, the nine shipways are said to be occupied by "nine Star Destroyers". One page 487 (Shield of Lies), there is mention of "a queer-looking Dreadnaught-scale ship, which Nylykerka excitedly identified as a long-missing Imperial testbed, the EX-F".

You are aware that the quote also involves the Intimidator, a Executor class variant? Furthermore, the usuage of "Super" for vessels larger than the common Imperator was explicity throughout the novel, used for the Intimidator but not for the EXF?

This author is not aware of any reference to EX-F as a Dreadnaught-class heavy cruiser; she has been referred to as a Dreadnought, but also as being no smaller than a 900-meter-long ship, and carrying what Connor MacLeod has supposed must be tens to hundreds of millions of tons of antimatter (to say nothing of the probable reactant matter). Furthermore, as Dr. Saxton has introduced the term "Star Dreadnought" to refer to vessels of such a large scale as HIMS Executor, one is left with the very real possibility that EX-F may have been rather larger than previous estimates have considered.

Correct.

It should be noted, PainRack, that one cannot simply dismiss references to EX-F's extremely large antimatter reservoir on the basis that it is "Secondary RPG data, outside of the novel", considering that the information is not derived from "secondary RPG" sources, and also that it is quite irrelevant whether or not this information was contained in the Black Fleet Crisis. If you wish to dismiss evidence, you must demonstrate the existence of a compelling reason to do so.

PUBLIUS

The argument is not to dismiss the large anti-matter stores. It is that the anti-matter stores do not dismiss the possibility of the vessel being stated to be a Dreadnaught class vessel, as opposed to a "Super" class vessel and as such, the destruction of secondary warships must be attributed to something else other than the anti-matter being sufficient to annihalate nearby ISDs.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Except for RPG data saying that it is.

Secondary RPG data, outside of the novel.

Yuck yuck.

In this case, its actually valid, since the original source material in two places (colloquially known as a Star Destroyer, and is greater than 900 meters) disagrees with the RPG. And then there is a post-RPG physical constraint which makes the RPG's identification impossible.

Unfortunately, the stupid FAQ is down, so , no data on my site.

K-Mac doesn't discuss the EX-F on his FAQ.

However, let's ask something. The anti-matter propulsion unit on the EXF was experimental. Why would they install a proof of concept drive, on such a large vessel as a Executor starship?

How the fuck should I know? I am not entitled to knock down every boogeyman that emerges from your shadowed mind.

Could it be that it was designed to increase performance in acceleration? Why then in ships which hardly need it, like destroyers, which in the static galaxy outmatch their opponents handily. However, look at the Iowa-class BB; fast battleships can be powerful strengths on the battlefield.

Either way, its still not a Dreadnaught-class CH, and the only other "dreadnaughts" out there are the Star Dreadnaughts.

Then don't grenade it asshole. It was classed Executor class Star Destroyer in the novel.

Don't be a fucking idiot; the vessel can be described either way and you know it. I use the more descriminatory, functionally useful terminology by preference, and in this case it was relevent to my point about Star Dreadnaughts being colloquially Star Destroyers; since both the EX-F and Executor-class have been described as such.

You quoted me as posted that as if it was a correction; that was a fucking dick thing to do given our previous arguments. Don't play fucking dumb.

My terminology is not a grenade; most notably because I used it throughout this thread and you only took exception with it in the very last post.

You are aware that the quote also involves the Intimidator, a Executor class variant? Furthermore, the usuage of "Super" for vessels larger than the common Imperator was explicity throughout the novel, used for the Intimidator but not for the EXF?

You're a goddamn weasel; you know "Super-class" is and has only been associated with the Executor-class.

You haven't provided an alternative theory to explain the antimatter stores' mass and the length and classification issues.

[PainRack]

In this case, its actually valid, since the original source material in two places (colloquially known as a Star Destroyer, and is greater than 900 meters) disagrees with the RPG. And then there is a post-RPG physical constraint which makes the RPG's identification impossible.

Conceded.

K-Mac doesn't discuss the EX-F on his FAQ.

There was a link to the WEG material.

Don't be a fucking idiot; the vessel can be described either way and you know it.

Yes. Exactly.

I use the more descriminatory, functionally useful terminology by preference, and in this case it was relevent to my point about Star Dreadnaughts being colloquially Star Destroyers; since both the EX-F and Executor-class have been described as such.

And I was using it as per how the novel described and classed it. So, you're not wrong, and NEITHER AM I.

You quoted me as posted that as if it was a correction; that was a fucking dick thing to do given our previous arguments. Don't play fucking dumb.

Actually, that was a failed editing on my part. It was meant to say that the Executor class Star Destroyer failed to display the firepower as expected from a fully operational Dreadnaught, before I decided to delete the statement.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Conceded.

Accepted.

Actually, that was a failed editing on my part. It was meant to say that the Executor class Star Destroyer failed to display the firepower as expected from a fully operational Dreadnaught, before I decided to delete the statement.

I think its far more plausible to argue a ship is poorly crewed/maintained/equipped/battle-ready/etc. than to argue that there's a scale version of it half its length. Tis why I never have supported the "17.6 Executor/8 km Super" theory.

[Connor MacLeod]

IIRC it was said there was a minimum of 2,400 lesser ships per ISD in a sector fleet. 24 ISDs in a sector fleet gives us 57600 ships. IIRC there are 1,000 sectors.

Wrong-o. The Galactic Republic had 1,026 Senators (included regional or non-sectorial senators like the TradeFed Senator, and thus the 1,026 number is a lower limit only). Keep in mind it did not control regions including Tattooine.

1.) The number is 1,024 not 1,026.

2.) The number does not refer to the number of Sectors OR Senators in the Senate, the number refers to the number of repulsor podium/platforms (and comes from the Ep 1 Visual Dictionary.) It further notes that not all said platforms are occupied by Senators.

3.) The EP1 VD further notes that there are "thousands" of Senatorial representatives (far more than there are podiums, even if you assumed all 1,024 were used solely by the Senators, which they are not.

Didn't you bother checking these figures at all?

The Imperial Sourcebook claims there are several regions containing "thousands" of Sectors.

That was a speculation/estimate on my part , not a definite lower limit. The minimum possible figure by the ISB is "thousands" of Sectors. 2,000 maybe 3,000. Hence my usage of the of the phrase "one or more".

Individual sectors can be augmented with additional squadrons (up to 15, I believe) at the discresion of the High Command. Oversectors are just huge areas of special importance comprehending many, many sectors. The "Oversector Outer" administrated by Grand Moff Tarkin included nearly all of the Outer Rim Territories.

The "additional squadrons" you referred to were not part of the Sector Group as a whole, but were "additions" to the Sector Group HQ forces personally under the control of a Moff (always a squadron itself, but it could be more if the Moff were "particularily competent or politically well connected." Tarkin and a Moff Carlinson were said to "easily" have 15 additional squadrons attached to their SGHQ, but no limit is given.

[Connor MacLeod]

You quite done having a temper tantrum? I was merely pointing out one aspect of it. So we've established that there is now a contradiction. We look at the available evidence and decide which one is more prevalent and that best describes how many ISDs and sectors there are.

Its not strictly speaking, a contradiction. Vympel already correctly pointed out that the quote cannot be ignored, but also as I already indicated, that only refers to ISDs - which are a KDY design. There are other shipbuilders in teh galaxy, some of which are at least as prominent as KDY (The "Big Corellian Ships" Han mentioned, ,for example.)
Basically, just because KDY builds ISDs does not mean everyone else will build KDY warships too (which is preposterous. Corellia is goign to build its own "brand" of warships - so will the other major yards. Its not as if KDY owns every single fucking yard in the galaxy or anything.) And strictly speaking, ,there can be lots of other vessels labeled "Star Destroyer" (which is the term applied to Sector groups in the ISB.) Technically, "Star Destroyer" has referred to ships as small as the 900 meter "Victory" class all the way up to stuff like the Executor (in the TESB and ROTJ novelizations.) The mile long ISDs would be unique because they combine features of more specialized ships like an assault transport, a carrier, and a battleship (if not others) into a single package. Other "Star Destroyers" could easily be more specialized sorts of ships (Saxton
has noted, for example, some "Star Destroyers" that lack hangars or have much smaller hangers... while others serve as Interdictors, carriers, or planetary assault/defense roles.)

Incidentally, the 25,000 quote (like much of the work the Authors used) originated with WEG material, so if there is any "blame" to be had for the so-called inconsistencies, it woudl be them first (if not LFL for using that as the "research material") - of course this assumes it IS an inconsistency, which it obviously is not, so nothing has to be ignored.

I've got nothing vested in this debate so I don't have any problem changing my position. You don't have any reason to flame me on the issue. I will happily look at the information you have. If we can come to an agreement as to what the likely final outcome is, all the better.

Like I've said before, thats how he reacts when people disagree with him. You sorta get used to it.

[Illuminatus Primus]

1.) The number is 1,024 not 1,026.

2.) The number does not refer to the number of Sectors OR Senators in the Senate, the number refers to the number of repulsor podium/platforms (and comes from the Ep 1 Visual Dictionary.) It further notes that not all said platforms are occupied by Senators.

3.) The EP1 VD further notes that there are "thousands" of Senatorial representatives (far more than there are podiums, even if you assumed all 1,024 were used solely by the Senators, which they are not.

Didn't you bother checking these figures at all?

I don't own the Ep. 1 VD. I was going on memory from the figures from Dr. Saxton on a lower-limit calculation of the number of platforms in the galactic senate, and extrapolating from the fact that most Republic Senatorial representation appeared to be Sectorial.

What's your problem? It is a nitpick, since none of that changes the spirit of the point, which is that there are much more than 1000 Sectors under the Republic or the Empire, and thus significantly more than the 24,000 Star Destroyers.

That was a speculation/estimate on my part , not a definite lower limit. The minimum possible figure by the ISB is "thousands" of Sectors. 2,000 maybe 3,000. Hence my usage of the of the phrase "one or more".

What are you talking about? I was not citing you on that. I have the ISB. There are regions containing thousands. Therefore, > = 2 regions contains > = 2000 sectors. The galaxy has > 4000 Sectors.

The "additional squadrons" you referred to were not part of the Sector Group as a whole, but were "additions" to the Sector Group HQ forces personally under the control of a Moff (always a squadron itself, but it could be more if the Moff were "particularily competent or politically well connected." Tarkin and a Moff Carlinson were said to "easily" have 15 additional squadrons attached to their SGHQ, but no limit is given.

The Sector Group as a whole is commanded by a Moff; a High Admiral and Sector Marshal's command are usually simply encorporated into that Sector's Moff. I'm sure he can redistribute forces as necessary, but you are correct. The additional squadrons are assigned to the SGHQ. The Sector Group itself may be larger; the ISB gives minimum strength figures.

None of this changes the overall point though.

[Connor MacLeod]

[quote='"Illuminatus Primus"]
You're a goddamn weasel; you know "Super-class" is and has only been associated with the Executor-class.
[/quote]

Have you ever bothered to fucking analyze the number of differences between the "Super" class and the Canon Executor-class?

1.) Different number of engines.

2.) Numerous differences in proportion, scale, dimensions, shape of individnaul segments (for example, there are distinct differences in the length of the fantail relative to the overall length of the ships, differences in the cityscape, differences in the size of their hangars relative to the overall ship, etc.

3.) Noticably different statistics and loadouts. Among other things, the "Super" class has a completely different armament and carries far fewer fighters (The Knight Hammer, for example, carried thousands of TIEs, and we know the Executor itself was equipped with thousands of weapons batteries.)
You do realize that, entirely different classes of ships have been assumed based on far less (One merely has to look at Saxton's page to see this is true), don't you?

Therefore, the EX-F is a Star Dreadnought, not a Dreadnaught-class CH.

Even though "Star Dreadnought" is not explicitly used, either. Gee, you don't suppose some people or governments might actually simply refer to things as destroyers, battleships, or cruisers without having to add "Star" to it? (Such as the Corellian "battleships, cruisers, destroyers, and carriers" mentioned in the canon ROTJ novelization.).
I can also think of one good reason why its not a "STar Dreadnought" like the Executor - no ship like that is goign to blow up because of engine damage (nor is it going to use antimatter when much better sources of fuel are available.)

[Illuminatus Primus]

Have you ever bothered to fucking analyze the number of differences between the "Super" class and the Canon Executor-class?

Its half the fucking size, like I said.

1.) Different number of engines.

2.) Numerous differences in proportion, scale, dimensions, shape of individnaul segments (for example, there are distinct differences in the length of the fantail relative to the overall length of the ships, differences in the cityscape, differences in the size of their hangars relative to the overall ship, etc.

3.) Noticably different statistics and loadouts. Among other things, the "Super" class has a completely different armament and carries far fewer fighters (The Knight Hammer, for example, carried thousands of TIEs, and we know the Executor itself was equipped with thousands of weapons batteries.)
You do realize that, entirely different classes of ships have been assumed based on far less (One merely has to look at Saxton's page to see this is true), don't you?

Its an error, not a seperate class. The Executor is depicted in the same manner. It is a misinterpretation of the Executor's class. You really feel its plausible that there's an almost scale replica of the Executor at 8 km serving in the Navy?

And that's all ancilliary to the point here anyway. In fact, the conclusion that "Super-class" applies only to the Executor-class is supported by BFC. The shipway from which the Intimidator was sent was a "Super-class". Yet, by the BFC, the Intimidator is an Executor-class vessel.

Do -any- real "Super-class" vessels exist?

HIMS Terror is an Executor-class by cutscenes. HIMS Lusankya is the Executor's sister. Iron First, formerly HIMS Whelm, was one of the five ships in the Executor's generation. Intimidator is an Executor-class by description. In the selfsame source, she is one of the three "Super-class" vessels; they are all of the same class and by extention are all Executor-class vessels. The Guardian is compared to the Lusankya and in CTD illustrations is the Executor-class. HIMS Vengeance is an Executor-class by illustrations. Razor's Kiss is the same class of ship as the Iron Fist and thus a member of Executor's class.

That leaves what, HIMS Aggressor, maybe?

Even though "Star Dreadnought" is not explicitly used, either. Gee, you don't suppose some people or governments might actually simply refer to things as destroyers, battleships, or cruisers without having to add "Star" to it? (Such as the Corellian "battleships, cruisers, destroyers, and carriers" mentioned in the canon ROTJ novelization.).

There are precisely two kinds of ship known as "dreadnaughts":

The Rendili StarDrive Dreadnaught-class CH.

The Star Dreadnoughts.

You expect me to choose neither of the knowns and instead your conjectural dreadnought becuase, surprise! people besides KDY and RSD make warships? How is that rational?

I'll choose among what is known to canonically exist--not what may exist but is not cited anywhere.

I can also think of one good reason why its not a "STar Dreadnought" like the Executor - no ship like that is goign to blow up because of engine damage (nor is it going to use antimatter when much better sources of fuel are available.)

Why is the Executor suddenly privledged in that it should not be using antimatter? Antimatter in general does not make sense, but we have to live with it. The Executor is not powered by drives connected to vast stores of volatile antimatter; of course it isn't going to cook-off from heavy engine damage.

Again, why does any other example of Imperial starship technology not unwarrenting of antimatter as a fuel, or for that matter cooking off at the hint of engine damage? How is this somehow unique to your nonexistant anonymous third party contractor dreadnaught?

[Connor MacLeod]

I don't own the Ep. 1 VD. I was going on memory from the figures from Dr. Saxton on a lower-limit calculation of the number of platforms in the galactic senate, and extrapolating from the fact that most Republic Senatorial representation appeared to be Sectorial.

Uh huh.

What's your problem? It is a nitpick, since none of that changes the spirit of the point, which is that there are much more than 1000 Sectors under the Republic or the Empire, and thus significantly more than the 24,000 Star Destroyers.

Uh huh. And how is this any different from the fact you chose to nitpick Aleyska's comment about 1000 sectors is any different? I'm sure that the 20 or so sectors he was off by made a HUGE difference.

PS: You can take your "Spirit of the point" and shove it up your ass. I was correcting your incorrect statements, and apparently you can't accept that.

What are you talking about? I was not citing you on that. I have the ISB. There are regions containing thousands. Therefore, > = 2 regions contains > = 2000 sectors. The galaxy has > 4000 Sectors.

"Sectors are grouped together in larger territorial entities called regions. The Empire has countless regions, which can contain as few as three to upwards of thousands of Sectors."

Going to duck under your "Spirit of the point" security blanket again?

The Sector Group as a whole is commanded by a Moff; a High Admiral and Sector Marshal's command are usually simply encorporated into that Sector's Moff. I'm sure he can redistribute forces as necessary, but you are correct. The additional squadrons are assigned to the SGHQ. The Sector Group itself may be larger; the ISB gives minimum strength figures.

Uh huh. Still not willing to admit when your being corrected, I see.

None of this changes the overall point though.

The point that you have to twist and dodge to avoid admitting your errorss? Apparently it doesn't.

[Connor MacLeod]

Its an error, not a seperate class. The Executor is depicted in the same manner. It is a misinterpretation of the Executor's class. You really feel its plausible that there's an almost scale replica of the Executor at 8 km serving in the Navy?

A misidentification of one ship or another does not disprove its existencec when that same evidence suggests that the "error".

And apparently you haven't bothered to compare the "WEG" "Super Star Destroyer" to the canon model, given you're still assuming I'm talking as if the "Super-class" is somehow smaller yet virtually identical to the Executor-class (even though I cited numerous structural differences.)

By your logic, I might add, we could ignore some of the "New ship classes" that supposedly appear in other sources like Dark Empire as mere errors.

PS: I'm not the first to suggest it might be possible to treat the 5-mile SSD as a separate class:

Some of these books might be rescued and retro-rationalised if it is possible to say that the named vessels are not in the Executor-class but instead represent smaller designs. The evidence requires detailed inspection.

Link

Now that I think about it, the "EX-F" is probably no larger than 8 km anyhow. Much the same logic as applied to determining the length of the Shockwave in Darksaber.

There are precisely two kinds of ship known as "dreadnaughts":

The Rendili StarDrive Dreadnaught-class CH.

The Star Dreadnoughts.

You expect me to choose neither of the knowns and instead your conjectural dreadnought becuase, surprise! people besides KDY and RSD make warships? How is that rational?

No, I expect you to assume that since its neither referred to as a Star Dreadnought nor a "Dreadnought class heavy cruiser", that its possible someone can call something a "dreadnought" without attaching "Star" to it. Do you always have trouble grasping simple concepts?

I'll choose among what is known to canonically exist--not what may exist but is not cited anywhere.

Try Occam's Razor. You're adding the unkonwn assumption that "Dreadnought" must automatically mean "Star Dreadnought." It wouldn't work that way in all cases if you tried to say that "destroyer" always means "Star Destroyer", either.

As I've pointed out, its possible to refer to a ship as a "battleship[" or a "destroyer" or a "cruiser" without calling it "Star Cruiser", "Star battleship", or "Star Destroyer".

Why is the Executor suddenly privledged in that it should not be using antimatter? Antimatter in general does not make sense, but we have to live with it. The Executor is not powered by drives connected to vast stores of volatile antimatter; of course it isn't going to cook-off from heavy engine damage.

Again, why does any other example of Imperial starship technology not unwarrenting of antimatter as a fuel, or for that matter cooking off at the hint of engine damage? How is this somehow unique to your nonexistant anonymous third party contractor dreadnaught?

Gee, ever heard of "Hypermatter?" Do you recall that the Acclamators fuel is ultra-dense (like the Death Star's - which incidentally is also referred to as an annihilation reaction in the canon novelization) How about the Core Ship's reactor? No antimatter there. What's next? Going to propose the empire has some way of creating ultra-ultra dense antimatter?

[Connor MacLeod]

Oh yes, and before I forget, there IS an example of a "dreadnought" not explicitly referred to as a "Star Dreadnought" - the Corporate Sector Authority's "Invincible-class" Heavy Cruiser is also referred to as a "dreadnought" (in the novel and in the WEG sourcebook.. the former which does not add the "heavy cruiser" designation.) However, since that would require Primey to admit ERROR, I guess we have to toss that out and simply assume any ship referred to a dreadnought must always mean a "Star Dreadnought"

[Illuminatus Primus]

Uh huh.

Nah, Connor, I'm lying. You've seen right through me. I own the VD. In fact I read it just 20 minutes ago. I read it and intentionally added 2 and went forgot the rest of it. Fucking narcolepsy. Thank the Lord I have Connor on the case.

Uh huh. And how is this any different from the fact you chose to nitpick Aleyska's comment about 1000 sectors is any different? I'm sure that the 20 or so sectors he was off by made a HUGE difference.

Because the number of sectors is significant only in terms of the number of Star Destroyers that should be in the Empire. In case you didn't notice, my entire point was that the Republic contained at least as many sectors as there were seats in the Senate. Yet it does not control Tattooine. Obviously there are quite a bit more sectors than 1000, and the 25k figure is not workable on his logic.

A nitpick is defined as critiquing a point which does not effect your opponent's conclusion in any way. The fact that the VD says the Republic has thousands of Senatorial representatives just makes my point stronger.

Thank you.

PS: You can take your "Spirit of the point" and shove it up your ass. I was correcting your incorrect statements, and apparently you can't accept that.

I can accept it just fine. It has absolutely positively nothing to do with the point; thousands is even better than "1026 and it doesn't control significant regions that the Empire does, ergo the Empire has many more Sectors" for the purposes of calculating Star Destroyer complements from those sector figures.

You know, this thread is about the number of capital ships in the Empire, NOT whether the Republic has 1024 or 1026 Senate seats or how many Senators there are. That was just an estimate. The lower limit was actually higher than I realized. This has no effect on what I was arguing with Aly about. It in fact aids me.

That is why you are nitpicking and thread hijacking. I'm sorry I offend poor ol' Connor so much. At least in the good ol' days you'd argue with me about what the thread I was posting in was about, rather than hunting down my ~.195% error on the number of Senate seats in the old Republic. Them good ol' days, eh' Connor?

"Sectors are grouped together in larger territorial entities called regions. The Empire has countless regions, which can contain as few as three to upwards of thousands of Sectors."

Going to duck under your "Spirit of the point" security blanket again?

No, because there are countless regions containing three to over thousands of Sectors. Are you telling me there aren't even two Regions containing 2000 Sectors? That "upwards of thousands" means one Region contains 2000 sectors and all the rest are only a handful by comparison? Just glancing at the galactography of the Empire/Republic and there's obviously some of the larger regions which are quite comparable in scale (the Outer Rim and the Inner Rim, for example). That calculation is actually rather conservative, again, thanks to you given that there are many thousands of Republican senators, many of which are sectorial, and that is when there are whole regions that the expansionist Empire will control later on.

Uh huh. Still not willing to admit when your being corrected, I see.

If all the forces assigned to the Moff (augmentation and the standard SG) are under his direct command, they are functionally inseperable; they serve the same command--the Sector Group HQ--the same CO, the same staff, what fucking difference is there between them?

Your distinction is completely meaningless. Do the forces allocated to the SGHQ in an unaugmented sector not officially part of the SG? Are the fact that the bequeathed squadrons sent to the SGHQ mean that they are pinned there and somehow absolutely defined as seperate from the SG? I said there were SGs which were augmented with up to 15 squadrons. Since that was the highest figure given, its hardly unreasonable to treat that as a provisional upper limit. Then again, any competent or politically connected Moff could acquire some such forces, so its hardly unreasonable.

But oh shucks, this grevious error has destroyed my point on the thread's subject, the number of capital warships in the Empire! Woe is me!

The point that you have to twist and dodge to avoid admitting your errorss? Apparently it doesn't.

No, that you came in to nitpick and point out trivial errors and had no intention of arguing the central point of the thread, just to attack me. That's all you've done so far.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Oh yes, and before I forget, there IS an example of a "dreadnought" not explicitly referred to as a "Star Dreadnought" - the Corporate Sector Authority's "Invincible-class" Heavy Cruiser is also referred to as a "dreadnought" (in the novel and in the WEG sourcebook.. the former which does not add the "heavy cruiser" designation.) However, since that would require Primey to admit ERROR, I guess we have to toss that out and simply assume any ship referred to a dreadnought must always mean a "Star Dreadnought"

Yeah, because that 3,000-year-old ship has been colloquially termed a Star Destroyer before....when now?

[Illuminatus Primus]

A misidentification of one ship or another does not disprove its existencec when that same evidence suggests that the "error".

Give me a break, Connor. SoD is dropped in terms of obvious jokes and plain glitches or errors. Are you really claiming its plausible that there's a scale model of the Executor out there of which all the cited examples are actually Executor-class ships?

And apparently you haven't bothered to compare the "WEG" "Super Star Destroyer" to the canon model, given you're still assuming I'm talking as if the "Super-class" is somehow smaller yet virtually identical to the Executor-class (even though I cited numerous structural differences.)

I know what the structural differences are. I suggest that the "Super-class" is an error of Rebel intelligence in reference to the Executor-class. Give that, all the cited examples are, in fact, members of Executor's class.

By your logic, I might add, we could ignore some of the "New ship classes" that supposedly appear in other sources like Dark Empire as mere errors.

No, because their examples are not shown to be Executor-class vessels in other chronicles of them. There is no consistent misidentification as another class. In fact there's no cogent argument that any of them are a member of any other known class, period.

PS: I'm not the first to suggest it might be possible to treat the 5-mile SSD as a separate class:

Some of these books might be rescued and retro-rationalised if it is possible to say that the named vessels are not in the Executor-class but instead represent smaller designs. The evidence requires detailed inspection.

I disagree since this "class" is associated and given for vessels which are all Executor-class ships.

Link

Now that I think about it, the "EX-F" is probably no larger than 8 km anyhow. Much the same logic as applied to determining the length of the Shockwave in Darksaber.

Which proves what? Giel's battleship is shorter than 8 km.

No, I expect you to assume that since its neither referred to as a Star Dreadnought nor a "Dreadnought class heavy cruiser", that its possible someone can call something a "dreadnought" without attaching "Star" to it. Do you always have trouble grasping simple concepts?

It must be some kind of dreadnaught. No, I do not feel the need to attach "Star" to everything. But the only canonical example of a "dreadnaught" which is also a "Star Destroyer" is the Star Dreadnaught Executor and her class.

What other alternatives do I have? Your conjecture is just that, and not a viable option the way a "Star Dreadnaught" is.

Try Occam's Razor. You're adding the unkonwn assumption that "Dreadnought" must automatically mean "Star Dreadnought." It wouldn't work that way in all cases if you tried to say that "destroyer" always means "Star Destroyer", either.

No, I'm not.

I'm deducing the fact that the only thing in the canon thus far which is both a dreadnaught and a Star Destroyer is a Star Dreadnaught.

As I've pointed out, its possible to refer to a ship as a "battleship[" or a "destroyer" or a "cruiser" without calling it "Star Cruiser", "Star battleship", or "Star Destroyer".

This has nothing to do with the point. Its finding an example in the canon which best fits the combination of descriptors associated with the ship.

Gee, ever heard of "Hypermatter?" Do you recall that the Acclamators fuel is ultra-dense (like the Death Star's - which incidentally is also referred to as an annihilation reaction in the canon novelization) How about the Core Ship's reactor? No antimatter there. What's next? Going to propose the empire has some way of creating ultra-ultra dense antimatter?

That's the whole point, idiot! Its not just the Executor; all major warships under the Empire should be using advanced technology like hypermatter. You're the imbecile which suggested that "a ship like Executor" would not have such a drive system, as if that was a condition unique to it. This problem applies to any significant vessel in SW, and therefore does not favor the "Star Dreadnaught" or your conjectural nonexistant dreadnaught or anything else. It makes equally little sense no matter what ship is sporting it. The best possibility I can think of is perhaps AM/M annhiliation was being considered for generating main or compensatory engine thrust directly (with power provided by the hypermatter reactor) for some reason. Perhaps they could yield temporarily higher accelerations? I do not know. It makes little sense no matter what ship class the EX-F belongs to.

[Thanas]

So where did the missing part of BlackSwordCom go?

My best bet is that they went to the IR.

Han's quote seems to assume more than one.... he speaks of "one super star destroyer", not "their only".

Of course, this is just an unproved assumption. (For example, why is Pellaeon's flagship the Chimaera, not an SSD?)

Or did they disappear in the UR?

(Which is highly unlikely - it means that Thrawn snatched them without anyone noticing - did he even hav command authority over them?)

Or were they destroyed in the civil war?




re. the Super class -

Even Allegiance Class vessels are Super Star Destroyers. WHich speaks more of a rebel designation for ships larger than ISDs.

What class is the Guardina? 8 or 17,6 km?

[Illuminatus Primus]

You need to improve your grammar and syntax; it is difficult to read your posts.

There is simply no reason to assume the either Admiral Pelleaon's Imperial Remnant: a confederation of warlord fiefdoms which does not yet exist at the time of BLACKSWORDCOM's recall recieved the ships. Similarly, there is no history or pattern of GADM Thrawn being able to arbitrarily bleed Isard's imploding Galactic Empire of vital war materiel. Like I said, you need to examine the evidence, not McEwok's drunken ravings.

The only place and individual which has historically being responsible for recalling and secretly concentrating large numbers of powerful warships from the greater Empire during this period (prior to the capture of Imperial Center) is the Deep Core and the resurrected Emperor Palpatine.

I direct you to the following passages from The Dark Empire Sourcebook:

It proved nearly impossible to coordinate the hundreds of surviving task forces across the sea of space. Access codes changed overnight, troops received inconsistent orders, and commanders were intractable and independent. The Navy might order a system under Rebel siege defended, only to find a few weeks later the same fleet had been, with all proper procedure, redirected to an insignificant fortress world deep in the Core.

Most notable was the ceaseless construction on the prototype Eclipse-class Super Star Destroyer. Designed as a flagship for the late Emperor, it was typical of the type of self-aggrandizing acts that had once been obsequiously approved, yet couldn't now be justified. Clearly, naval planners felt traditional ships of the line were what were needed to handle the Rebellion, not some grandiose yacht sitting for years in space dock with no sign of completion.

For half a year, Imperial supporters allowed themselves to remember the "glories" of the past. Thrawn was Emperor in all but name. While Thrawn's fleet was but a small portion of the Empire's once unimaginably vast war fleet, and Thrawn's support was far from universal or even enthusiastic, he had managed to bring the New Republic to its knees, even blockading Coruscant with a deviously simple siege weapon. Imagine, then, the ministers' disappointment when, after so promising a start, he ultimately perished. True, he had won back much of their lost territory, but the job was still unfinished.

While it was imprudent to reveal his return, he could still hinder or aid those who caught his fancy. It was, in fact, the Emperor who had given all the various orders and counter-orders that were impeding the petty plans of the various factions. Here then was the reason so many of the warships Thrawn needed had vanished into the fortress systems, forcing him to rely on the Katana fleet of lost Dreadnaughts. It was the Emperor, also, who ordered that the construction of new palaces and his flagship continue. All in preparation for the day when he would announce himself to the galaxy and take his throne back. But first, more time to heal, then the destruction of the revolutionaries who had caused him so much trouble.

(bolded emphases all mine)

According to illustrations in Cracken's Fleet Dossier and comparisons to the NRS Lusankya during the New Jedi Order series; the Guardian should be an Executor-class ship and thus 17.6 km long.

[Thanas]

You need to improve your grammar and syntax; it is difficult to read your posts.

I know. Sorry. I had only two hours of sleep last night and I am currently living on coffee.



Other than that, I concur with your posts - As I said that Thrawn "received" those ships is highly unlikely.

There is simply no reason to assume the either Admiral Pelleaon's Imperial Remnant: a confederation of warlord fiefdoms which does not yet exist at the time of BLACKSWORDCOM's recall recieved the ships. Similarly, there is no history or pattern of GADM Thrawn being able to arbitrarily bleed Isard's imploding Galactic Empire of vital war materiel. Like I said, you need to examine the evidence, not McEwok's drunken ravings.

Well, we have the Admonitor. Then we have the 501st, and the other Star Destroyers Thrawn had. However, I will not debate Thrawn here. In the other topics I have read about Thrawn (see the ones under Chiss arguments) it always ended in a slugfest. You seem particulary sensitive on that issue.


What I meant was (I apologize again for the bad grammar and syntax) that eventually some of the "Black Fleet" might have ended up in Pellaeons IR.
(Then again, the IR might have SSD shipbuilding capacity. Another reason for the appearance of SSDs might be that they are leftovers from Palpys Armada. )


I concur with your assessment though that the Black Fleet was withdrawn to the Core. It seems to fit Palpys strategy to pull back extremely competent and strong forces into the core.

Then again I have a question - the core worlds are often shown as barren worlds with little natural resources, population or industry.

How did Palpy supply and maintenanced this huge fleet?

Note: Perhaps it would be better to split this into a seperate thread.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Well, we have the Admonitor. Then we have the 501st, and the other Star Destroyers Thrawn had.

Apples and oranges compared to large extra-sectorial commands like BLACKSWORDCOM. Its actually rather conspicuous that GADM Thrawn never had access to vessels larger than Imperial-class Star Destroyers.

And the 501st was a homegrown product of the Empire of the Hand.

What I meant was (I apologize again for the bad grammar and syntax) that eventually some of the "Black Fleet" might have ended up in Pellaeons IR.
(Then again, the IR might have SSD shipbuilding capacity. Another reason for the appearance of SSDs might be that they are leftovers from Palpys Armada. )

Since the Empire seems to newly have the Executor-class Star Dreadnought in the New Jedi Order, and they have only one, and they have apparently none during the Hand of Thrawn duology. I find it doubtful that two had fallen into their hands since their inception and are never referenced.

Then again I have a question - the core worlds are often shown as barren worlds with little natural resources, population or industry.

How did Palpy supply and maintenanced this huge fleet?

Not sure. I imagine Palpatine's spies and loyalists funneled and skimmed off resources and supplies from the surrounding galaxy.

[President Sharky]

On the EX-F's antimatter reservoirs: Couldn't it be possible to rationalize that the author used "antimatter" as a short form for "anti-hypermatter? It would be more plausible if the testbed was carrying some radical form of a hypermatter annihilation core, than some weak antimatter tanks. It makes it more believable that six ISDs could have been destroyed by its explosion.

[FTeik]

IIRC, the equivalent of ten superiority-forces was taken by the imperial prisoners of BlackSwordCommand with them to the deep core according to CTD.

Interesting is, that they obviously knew about Byss (since this was their target according to EC).

Considering, that the Yevethans got only a limited number of the missing BSC-ships including Intimidator and EX-F this also shows, that they continued to build imperial designs.

[Thanas]

Apples and oranges compared to large extra-sectorial commands like BLACKSWORDCOM. Its actually rather conspicuous that GADM Thrawn never had access to vessels larger than Imperial-class Star Destroyers.

I don't believe Thrawn really needed any SSDs to accomplish his goals. Besides, during his later campaigns none were probably available. THe Empire had even stopped producing ISDs at that time. The only SSD I can think of is the Reaper, but she belonged to Kaine.

Besides, who in the UR is powerful enough to warrant the attention of an SSD? So he probably didn't need one during his time in the UR.

(Then again, we have the Intimidator, which was later found irreparable damaged near (or in?) the UR. So somebody or somehting was powerful enough to damage an SSD. )

We have no evidence that Thrawn sent an SSD into the UR. Which either means that none were available to him at that time, that he needed it elsewhere, or that he did do it and it isn't written in the books.

I belive 1 is the most plausible.

Since the Empire seems to newly have the Executor-class Star Dreadnought in the New Jedi Order, and they have only one, and they have apparently none during the Hand of Thrawn duology. I find it doubtful that two had fallen into their hands since their inception and are never referenced.

Conceded.

Not sure. I imagine Palpatine's spies and loyalists funneled and skimmed off resources and supplies from the surrounding galaxy.

Hmm... either from the warlords or from the empire then.

The only warlord I can think of who'd be capable of supporting one SSD is Kaine. However, he could only maintain one SSD, and Thrawn reduced his influence to almost nothing.

So Palpatine would have to siphon those resources of the Imperial warmachine. And this I believe I find highly unlikely without Thrawn noticing.

IIRC, the equivalent of ten superiority-forces was taken by the imperial prisoners of BlackSwordCommand with them to the deep core according to CTD.

CTD?