Spacebattle

[IRG CommandoJoe]

I agree. I like Z-95s (the dog fight in Han Solo at Star's End being the over riding factor), but an attack run with just them and 10 Y-Wings against an ISD2? Wouldn't want to do it, but it could hurt if they attack an area already under fire from multiple capital ships.

I guess if the capships weakened a shield section before being obliterated into space dust the fighters could do a lot of damage with their PTs...so it would be best for them to stay out of range of the ISD II until the time is right to strike. The thing is I don't know how much damage the capships could do to a shield section before they go bye-bye.

[Imperial Overlord]

5 corvettes, 2 nebulons, 1 carrack, and 1 bulk cruiser. The corvettes may have pop guns, but the other 4 have a respectable number of TLs. There is too many of them to assume that they won't be able to gang up on a section and pour fire into it. That isn't an opportunity I would willingly hand over to a bunch of Y-wings.

[wautd]

Looking at the poll so far, obviously the ISD wins. What if the bulk cruiser gets replaced by a dreadnaught?

[Rogue 9]

If you're playing X-Wing, the defenders and easily, but you're not. So, I'd probably give this to the ISD, barring planetary anti-orbital batteries.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

In fighter combat the defender will be fucked royally. An ISD carries seventy-two TIEs (IIRC, from X-Wing documentation). Z-95 is quite obsolete while Y-Wing is fighter-bomber hybrid, not a dedicated fighter.

[Ender]

The generic Tie fielded by the Empire does not have shields. We have a couple examples of shields on Ties, but these are not standard designs.

Prove. it.

I'm sorry for the short temper here, but I get really sick of going 12 rounds with BEUPs (Brainless Expanded Universe Parrots) who just deny the films with out proof. Are there maybe 2 kinds of Ties, the shielded the navy version and the unshielded the starfleet version? Maybe. But there is nothing to show shielded Ties are rare.

The EU.
The EU is canon unless disproven by evidence from the movies. We have seen ONE TIE fighter with shields, and every other TIE fighter we've seen has died in ONE HIT.
Since every book says that most TIE fighters are unshielded, as do the tech manuals (official)- it goes.

So despite the fact we saw 2 ties with shields in the films and some that took multiple hits, the EU is right. The EU with its 8 km Executor, the Eu with its Ties withot ejection seats, the Eu with its 100 miles DS2, the EU with it 1200 meter lone home one....

The movies show shields. That all Ties execpt the most advanced ones is disproven by the movies.

[Ender]

The generic Tie fielded by the Empire does not have shields. We have a couple examples of shields on Ties, but these are not standard designs.

Prove. it.

I'm sorry for the short temper here, but I get really sick of going 12 rounds with BEUPs (Brainless Expanded Universe Parrots) who just deny the films with out proof. Are there maybe 2 kinds of Ties, the shielded the navy version and the unshielded the starfleet version? Maybe. But there is nothing to show shielded Ties are rare.

Weight of evidence. EU has plenty of examples of Ties not having shields or only elite units having shields. Seeing as this contradicts nothing, I see no reason to use this information. On the other hand you have to prove that all Ties have shields, and this is a problem seeing as it disagrees with a LOT of the EU.

No, I most certainly do not. Read what you quoted, I never said that all Ties have shields.

Whichever explination is simpler and has fewer conflicting points is the more logical one.

And the explanation that contradicts the movies is automatically wrong

[Ender]

Ender, you're being an idiot.

There is every reference to assume shielded TIEs are rare; namely, that there are only a few examples of shielded TIEs.

Moreover, all most all TIE references refer to the TIE Line Fighter, including every EU battle; no TIE/Ln has ever been observed to be shielded.

Its hardly a case of EU vs. films; the films never indicate anything except that the TIE sentry force sent to intercept the Falcon was shielded; the empirical evidence says nothing else. And vague implications do not override every EU example in existance.

And vague implications are not comparable to physical constraints, like the aftermath of the Battle of Endor and the fate of the Endor moon.

You state that my point is based off a vague implication, however your statement that shielded Ties are rare is the same thing - vague. The rest of the Ties we see in the films come from local backwater sectors: No shit they won't have the best equipment. Next stuff we see if after the civil wars. No shit we only see the lesser equipment.

You only have vague implications that shielded Ties are rare as well. We never see the bulk of the imperial forces.

[Rogue 9]

I somehow doubt that the Executor had TIEs from a backwater sector. Furthermore, the OT ICS specifies that the basic TIE is unshielded.

[Ender]

I somehow doubt that the Executor had TIEs from a backwater sector. Furthermore, the OT ICS specifies that the basic TIE is unshielded.

The executor didn't. But at Hoth they called up the local sector fleet to help search the asteroid field and it was part of the local fleet again at Endor. Can you show that the unshielded ties we see came from the Executor and not from them?

[Alyeska]

IIRC proton torpedoes are describe as thermo nuclear weapons. Nukes create more wattage damage against shields then TLs. This explains how proton torpedoes with relatively weak tonnage yields compared to TLs can still damage shields.

[Connor MacLeod]

IIRC proton torpedoes are describe as thermo nuclear weapons. Nukes create more wattage damage against shields then TLs. This explains how proton torpedoes with relatively weak tonnage yields compared to TLs can still damage shields.

Yes, to an extent. But the dissipation rate (wattage) is only part of it (and they're not just "nukes" - proton torpedoes appear to vary both in how they work and in yield.) There's also the heat sink capacity (energy has to be absorbed before it can be dissipated away, after all ) and in some cases there could be momentum-based considerations.

In other words, you have to overwhelm dissipation rate (which as you said, can be achieved by delivering energy in a shorter period of time) easily, but on the other hand, that energy that is absorbed has to go somewhere.

[Connor MacLeod]

So despite the fact we saw 2 ties with shields in the films and some that took multiple hits, the EU is right. The EU with its 8 km Executor, the Eu with its Ties withot ejection seats, the Eu with its 100 miles DS2, the EU with it 1200 meter lone home one....

*sigh* its NOT just the EU ender, its the OT ICS as well. Are you going to insist on dismissing that as well based on "canon"? You yourself admitted that we don't see the bulk of the Imperial fleet in the movies. This means that we can't really say one way OR another how common shielded TIEs are.

What we CAN say is that there exist TIES that are shielded (Which was already established in the EU, incidentally), and that its probable that even standard TIEs can be designed to mount shields. However, there IS no explicit evidence that suggests that they ARE equipped with shields as standard. In the absence of evidence one way or another, other evidencee (like the OT ICS) prevails (up to a point, at least.) - there is no explicit contradiction in the movies against it.

I would further point out taht since shield generators add mass and draw power, we could infer that adding shields would reduce their performance, so they may not always add them (or only add them as circumstances dictate.) As an example, point out to the limitations added to Vader's TIE Advanced X1 - it has shields and a hyperdrive, but the added mass greatly hampers it speed and mobility, even though it has a substantially better powerplant as well.

Despite what some people might infer about you, I don't think you're being an idiot about it. However, I do believe you're making an unjustified conclusion based on your interpretation of the evidence, and I think you should reconsider that position.

[Alyeska]

In X-Wing Wraith Squadron it was commented how both shields and hyper drives reduce the speed and maneveruability of the Tie-Interceptors they were equiped to. It appears that equiping shields and hyperdrives isn't really difficult, its just not done both for expense and performance. Hyperdrives appear to affect performance less then shields, but even then it has an affect. In a later Wraith book they comment that when doing an infiltration mission with Tie-Interceptors they had to mimic poorer manueverability and acceleraton/deceleraton to make it look as if the Tie-Interceptors were hyperdrive equiped.

[Illuminatus Primus]

You state that my point is based off a vague implication, however your statement that shielded Ties are rare is the same thing - vague. The rest of the Ties we see in the films come from local backwater sectors: No shit they won't have the best equipment. Next stuff we see if after the civil wars. No shit we only see the lesser equipment.

You only have vague implications that shielded Ties are rare as well. We never see the bulk of the imperial forces.

You parade on this point every single time; yet it is you who asserts in every occasion of the common TIE that it should be shielded because a handful in the canon were seen to be shielded. Moreover, most TIEs described in the EU and post-ANH are TIE Line Fighters and you have no examples of them being shielded. Its irrational and you've had this pointed out before.