imperial militarization

[Illuminatus Primus]

It. Does. Not. The OOB is not yet filled. That has been my point for some time now. It is a goal, not yet reached.

Yes, and if you'd been following me then its my point that you're not accounting for all the evidence if you disregard that. The OOB itself never describes it as a goal. That's your conclusion, not your evidence.

I very simply showed that 'The Emperor commanding the military to mobilize' and 'The fleet rosters filling up' do not just happen.

You didn't show anything. The circumstancial evidence of the Empire's construction rates is exactly why I did not favor the lower figure. Because the idea of the Empire taking years to build up to something at a rate at least tens of millions of times slower than canonically observed seems absurd.

Do you actually know what Sophistry is, you ingrate?

sophistry

n : a deliberately invalid argument displaying ingenuity in reasoning in the hope of deceiving someone [syn: sophism, sophistication]

Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University

Coming up with this over-complex litany of explanation when "I'm 're-interpreting' (read: totally invalidating what it was supposed to mean) the source in question because I find the other sources in corroboration more compelling" is sophistry. It sounds like its crystal and clear but its really just noise and dressing up on the fact that we're changing the OOB from what it says it is (a representation of the average to minimum SG) to a desired goal in order to slide with other sources.

Do you know what ingrate is? Can you explain my ingratitude toward you, Martin?

Sophistry would be saying 'They're all right' and 'I'm right and you're right and that's fine.'.

This is actually looking at the evidence in context.

Which means you found two other sources in corroboration and so you changed the meaning of the OOB as it describes itself to fit.

While the organization and Order of Battle of a Sector Group has been outlined according to the numbers in these reports, these numbers can at best be considered averages. And in the wake of the Emperor’s command to mobilize the Imperial war machine, they may even be considered minimum levels of force. Also, the forces deployed in a given sector will depend upon the importance, size, and location of that sector.

That's not consistent with "may be considered averages in 4 years."

YOU invented the strawman that saying the OOB isn't filled yet is discarding it. And for what? So you can dredge up your vendetta from a year ago? Seriously, do you just sit around in this forum, sitting in your own feces, waiting for me to post so you can cackle and jump around in glee?

Actually, moron, the argumentation I quoted has absolutely nothing to do with the OoB.

In case your wondering what emotion to read into that paragraph, it's contempt. If this is in any way like how you behave in the real world, get used to it. You'll feel it your whole life.

Whatever, Martin. Keep your amateur psychotherapy at home. I don't give a fuck what you think.

If there is a difference between the ISB statement of how many TS's exist, and the OOB's statement of how many TS's exist, my theory that the OOB is not yet filled is supported, by the source of the OOB itself. So. Please. Answer the question and let me know if I'm correct in my remembering of how many TS's are in the OOB.

Actually, Martin, you're wrong. The OOB as it exists for a Sector Group contains no Bombard Fleets, thus no Force Bombards, thus no Bombard Squadrons, thus no Torpedo Lines, and thus not a single Torpedo Sphere.

In fact, the OOB specifically shows the "expanded unit designations" with a grey background.

And the four Superiority Fleets are in the white - the OOB actually states exactly what will be increased. That is - one Superiority Fleet, two Assault Fleets, and one Bombard Fleet. (Future Sector Groups will contain 30 ISDs).

Funny the OOB already marks the "to be increased" bits if the whole thing is a "hopeful projection" or something, eh? You're shoehorning the OOB against what its actually saying. Now I don't disagree that might be necessary. But your incessant pleading that that is not, in fact, what you are doing is increasingly aggrivating in the depth of its dishonesty. Did you even look at what it said before you started spouting all of this?

Give me a few hours and I can have the scans up and hosted so I can in-line the images and demonstrate all of the above directly.

You're bloody obsessed. You're a bloody zealot.

I admitted it might be necessary. The only thing I'm disputing is your dishonesty.

You can't fathom that, in context, the OOB is not necessarily iron-clad truth, but a goal.

If the OOB is intended to be a goal, why does it include within itself, "expanded units" and other designators showing how it is going to increase in the future, if that is exactly what it is? The OOB itself draws distinctions between what is apparently achieved and what will be achieved.

If necessary, one may have to contradict it and interpret it as a goal. But that sure is not what is says, and to claim it does is just bullshit.

Stop strawmanning my statement from 'The OOB is a goal being worked towards during the Rebellion era' into 'The OOB is worthless'. Because at no point am I saying this. You can yell and stamp your feet, but I'm not saying that. The closest you can get to that is saying 'The OOB is worthless for stating the exact number of ships present now.' The OOB still holds use, however, especially for anyone wanting to think about what the Empire could have done if it beat the Rebellion.

Look, that might be your shoe-horn fix, but that is certainly not what the ISB, in of itself, says.

Wow, we don't get along. Jesus Christ, there's a news flash. You only leapt into a conversasion I had with Conner

There's no segregated discussion zones, nitwit. If you want that communicate via e-mail or PM.

and started dredging up year-old threads at the first opportunity.

The fifth or sixth post is first oppurtunity? Give me a break; you would've whined like a bitch regardless of when or why or how I showed you spewing the same bullshit before in front of someone else.

What am I supposed to do? Pretend it didn't happen. I have a good memory.

At least I ignore you most of the time.

Give me a break, you rarely post in here.

Dragging up past threads fits the definition well.

Then why don't you report to Vympel my horrid behavior and have disciplinary action posted against me, if my crimes are so blatant and obvious?

I'm not the one desperately trying to assail the other with strawmen and past greivances,

I didn't bring up any grievances. We debated rather heatedly in that thread, and I never directly refered to those instances or to our arguments. Rather, I referred you to making a verbatim argument against the only person on this webboard who did the Dodonna calc (so odd that I find it then, if that's what we're discussing )

or leaping into the first thread in my domain with a certain name in it.

This isn't fucking Fantasy. Go cry me a fucking river, Martin.

As predictable as Newtonian physics.

The put your money where your mouth is and get me in trouble, asswipe. I'm done with your loudmouth horseshit. You started stinking up the "vendetta" and "personal" bullshit. I simply linked you to a prior argument you have with ANOTHER POSTER. Why? Because I wasn't going to plagerize his work (he's the only one who did that calc) and it was the precise same argument. I wasn't going to waste my times over several pages just doing what had already been covered. And since you abandoned it (in favor of "Primey's a big JERK" bitching), it quite obviously worked.

Yep. Now what would really help the figures is if I could find any evidence my half-remembered thoughts of an ISD 'test bed' for a ship-mounted superlaser was Official and not fan-made.

The Errant Venture had an axial superlaser mounted on it in the NJO. But that doesn't do shit for you; it simply directs the same power through a different conduit.

You need a bigger reactor in order to get the firepower figures up, and that means bigger ships. The Death Star is really powerful because it has a HUGE and powerful power source, not because its prime weapon is called a "superlaser."

All the ISD SL does is take the firepower delivered by the HTL batteries and direct it in a different manner.

If there is evidence the Empire constructed a mini-SL in such a way, it would massively ramp up things.

No it wouldn't, for the aforementioned reasons.

Much like the quake device(Can't recall the name for it) SSD's and the like could equip. Couldn't they shake apart small moons or something? Gods, now I have to find HDS' notes, he pointed them out...

The ISB is again our friend.

Two-Wave Gravshock Devices

Housed within the shell of a Torpedo Sphere, the two-wave gravshock - or planetbuster - is designed to do terrible damage on a near-planetary scale.

By localizing a planet’s gravity, the gravshock waves can simulate earthquakes, floods, and other natural disasters. Unfortunately, time and power make this weapon somewhat impractical on the everyday scale. The Super-class Star Destroyer, for example, is the only ship with engines powerful enough to pump the massive amounts of energy necessary for a full planetary disruption, but it has no need of such a weapon considering the armaments it packs.

The localization effect of the gravwave is not without problems either. As a planet’s gravitational field is altered, any vessels navigating in near-space (including the attacker) are subject to rapid and unpredictable orbital shifts.

However, successful tests make this ordnance worth exploring. Crushing cities in upon themselves, shaking them to pieces, redirecting waterways to make the most of their destructive power, the gravshock device is worthy of Imperial thinking and use.

One new concept for the gravshock technology involves asteroid mining and surveying. Imperial engineers theorize that by studying the effects of a weak gravwave attack on a small body, like a moon or asteroid, they can learn information about its interior. Thus, the weapon can be used to find important ores and metals for making even more weapons.

This does very little to help with power concerns. First of all, its obvious SW can manipulate gravity without resorting to the necessary mass-energy quantities (lack of curvature and mass on simple starships with artigrav, for example). And secondly the events are not that large in scale.

[SirNitram]

Primus, when you can actually maintain the concentration necessary to carry on multiple threads of conversasion at once, we'll talk. You're now mixing and matching: I bring up the torpedo sphere's in reference to the total firepower of the Starfleet, not the Sector Fleets and their dispositions.

And regardless of energy expended(Isn't it you who just said, not a page ago, that reactor output wasn't how to measure the fleet's for the Dodonna quote?), the practical damage a Torpedo Sphere can inflict is massive. The fact it's got a device described as able to destroy a world(Presumably render it utterly uninhabitable), kind of ramps up the firepower. But when it looks like the ability to put this power on the target is brought up(As with my half remembered Obliterator, which I think actually is a fan creation, so bugger it), you bring up reactor power. You're a hypocrit:

Dodonna did not compare "time-averaged reactor output" between the Starfleet and the Death Star. He compared FIREPOWER.

You can continue to whine and bitch, but this is tiresome. If you're not going to 'get into a three page screaming match', walk the fuck away you ignorant shitstain. I've got no magic psychic powers holding you here and demanding you post.

As for getting you in trouble? I'm not as petty as you are, Primus. I don't bring up violations unless it would benefit the board as a whole. You having serious fucking issues and hounding me whenever I post in this forum isn't a large issue.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Primus, when you can actually maintain the concentration necessary to carry on multiple threads of conversasion at once, we'll talk. You're now mixing and matching: I bring up the torpedo sphere's in reference to the total firepower of the Starfleet, not the Sector Fleets and their dispositions.

If there is a difference between the ISB statement of how many TS's exist, and the OOB's statement of how many TS's exist, my theory that the OOB is not yet filled is supported, by the source of the OOB itself. So. Please. Answer the question and let me know if I'm correct in my remembering of how many TS's are in the OOB.

You're a fucking liar. Maybe you should READ WHAT I'M REPLYING TO.

And regardless of energy expended(Isn't it you who just said, not a page ago, that reactor output wasn't how to measure the fleet's for the Dodonna quote?), the practical damage a Torpedo Sphere can inflict is massive. The fact it's got a device described as able to destroy a world(Presumably render it utterly uninhabitable), kind of ramps up the firepower. But when it looks like the ability to put this power on the target is brought up(As with my half remembered Obliterator, which I think actually is a fan creation, so bugger it), you bring up reactor power. You're a hypocrit:

Dodonna did not compare "time-averaged reactor output" between the Starfleet and the Death Star. He compared FIREPOWER.

Firepower, as in power pumped into a target. You want to start with stupid unquantificable bullshit like "destroying a world?" (by what meaningless criteria the ISD has the same firepower as a Death Star yet one can batter a shield down and the other can't - hm might this count in firepower? Couldn't be.) I expected better from an ASVSer.

Nice bullshit though; its easy when you twist things into unquantificable bullshit to avoid doing math work. I love how you bring up peripheral one-hit wonders and maybes like ISD SLs (which was meaningless as shown earlier) and gravshocks of which you have no quantificable estimates or even the number of examples of these weapons.

You're full of shit, Martin. When you've mixed this bag of shit together, counted your beans, and produced something equaling 1e38 for your estimates, come back. Until then, shut the fuck up.

You can continue to whine and bitch, but this is tiresome. If you're not going to 'get into a three page screaming match', walk the fuck away you ignorant shitstain. I've got no magic psychic powers holding you here and demanding you post.

You're a liar and a bullshit artist, and I'm enjoying continuing to expose it.

As for getting you in trouble? I'm not as petty as you are, Primus. I don't bring up violations unless it would benefit the board as a whole. You having serious fucking issues and hounding me whenever I post in this forum isn't a large issue.

In other words, you're full of hot air. Buzz off, grandstander.

[SirNitram]

Primus, when you can actually maintain the concentration necessary to carry on multiple threads of conversasion at once, we'll talk. You're now mixing and matching: I bring up the torpedo sphere's in reference to the total firepower of the Starfleet, not the Sector Fleets and their dispositions.

If there is a difference between the ISB statement of how many TS's exist, and the OOB's statement of how many TS's exist, my theory that the OOB is not yet filled is supported, by the source of the OOB itself. So. Please. Answer the question and let me know if I'm correct in my remembering of how many TS's are in the OOB.

You're a fucking liar. Maybe you should READ WHAT I'M REPLYING TO.

I see now what you were trying to rave about. Fine, no Spheres in the OOB. You could have saved so much damn trouble by simply saying that, but no, you had to go on your spiel.

And regardless of energy expended(Isn't it you who just said, not a page ago, that reactor output wasn't how to measure the fleet's for the Dodonna quote?), the practical damage a Torpedo Sphere can inflict is massive. The fact it's got a device described as able to destroy a world(Presumably render it utterly uninhabitable), kind of ramps up the firepower. But when it looks like the ability to put this power on the target is brought up(As with my half remembered Obliterator, which I think actually is a fan creation, so bugger it), you bring up reactor power. You're a hypocrit:

Dodonna did not compare "time-averaged reactor output" between the Starfleet and the Death Star. He compared FIREPOWER.

Firepower, as in power pumped into a target. You want to start with stupid unquantificable bullshit like "destroying a world?" (by what meaningless criteria the ISD has the same firepower as a Death Star yet one can batter a shield down and the other can't - hm might this count in firepower? Couldn't be.) I expected better from an ASVSer.

Oh wow. Yes, let's not discuss what a vessel capable of dropping a planetary shield and then shaking a planet to 'Disruption' would mean firepower-wise: Discuss only it's reactor output! The hypocrisy is enormous. If you want to discuss reactor-output, then your quoted statement is blatant, burning hypocrisy, and the point about 25,000 ISD's, each capable of BDZing an aqueaous world with their guns, will suffice the standard. If you are instead talking about firepower, let's discuss the implications of six vessels capable of de-shielding a planet and then shaking it so hard everyone on the surface is dead, which is a pretty conservative estimation of 'Destroyed', when the text reads 'Total planetary disruption'.

Nice bullshit though; its easy when you twist things into unquantificable bullshit to avoid doing math work. I love how you bring up peripheral one-hit wonders and maybes like ISD SLs (which was meaningless as shown earlier) and gravshocks of which you have no quantificable estimates or even the number of examples of these weapons.

Six Gravito-Shock devices, as they appear to be mounted on Torp Spheres.

As for the damage they do, it is quantifiable. But like comic fan-whores and fantasy retards, you run away from anything that isn't easy. Typical. Six vessels capable of devastating shielded planets means alot of firepower if we're talking about damage potential. Again, if we're talking about Reactor Output, you've got egg on your face...

You're full of shit, Martin. When you've mixed this bag of shit together, counted your beans, and produced something equaling 1e38 for your estimates, come back. Until then, shut the fuck up.

I've got my ducks in a row, as much as you'd love to screech that I don't. I've shown the weight of evidence is against the OOB being filled, I've shown you to be a zealot trying to save face with your constant strawmanning of my position that the OOB is not yet filled, and I've certainly shown you as a hypocrit with this ridiculous 'IT'S NOT REACTOR POWER!' and then 'UH, STOP, WAIT, REACTOR POWER!' dance.

You can continue to whine and bitch, but this is tiresome. If you're not going to 'get into a three page screaming match', walk the fuck away you ignorant shitstain. I've got no magic psychic powers holding you here and demanding you post.

You're a liar and a bullshit artist, and I'm enjoying continuing to expose it.

How's the meal service on Planet Delusion?

As for getting you in trouble? I'm not as petty as you are, Primus. I don't bring up violations unless it would benefit the board as a whole. You having serious fucking issues and hounding me whenever I post in this forum isn't a large issue.

In other words, you're full of hot air. Buzz off, grandstander.

Grandstander? You pathetic little worm. I'm not the one [deleted], and trying to twist this into some sort of vendetta, when you're the one waiting for me to post here, and then dragging up ancient history in a vague effort to impress your fans. I'm not the one spouting, verbatim, Creationist-grade asshattery about 'Absense of evidence is not evidence of absense!'. I am not the one committing blatant hypocrisy for all to see and pretending it's the other guy.

Crawl back into your hole.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

This entire debate seems to me to be one that could be easily rationalized by a fact I brought up years ago, that "Navy" and "Starfleet" are two different things and the Empire appears to have one of each. Figures for one are not necessarily applicable to the other. Pellaeon's statement about 25,000 ISDs is coming from an officer in the Starfleet, a ranking officer in a flying squadron to be precise, not an officer in one of the Sector Groups, the later being the forces normally referred to as the Navy.

Just to have one ship per planet according to the WEG sourcebook (1 million member worlds and 50 million "colonies, governorators, and protectorates") would require a truly staggering force numerically--and yet that one ship per planet would only really be effectual for customs duties. It's really quite easy when you think about it that way. The "Navy" is a coast guard, who's largest ships--which it pretentiously refers to as battleships--are just destroyers to the Starfleet, which has twenty-five thousand of them. The reason the Navy (or coast guard) has more than the Starfleet is because destroyers are suited to patrol duties and it needs a lot of them. The Starfleet only needs enough for the tactical support of the Line of Battle.

Do remember that the largest ships in our own coast guard were comparable to destroyers, so this is not only grounded in the available evidence (since we have clearly contradicting numbers for ships which are definitely stated to exist) but also in the terminology variations, and, last though not least, in our own historical examples of how such forces are organized.

[SirNitram]

My only quarrel with you on that point, Marina, is that we so rarely see local ISD's, or ISD-scale ships, attached to the planet. But you are right in the underlying logic.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

My only quarrel with you on that point, Marina, is that we so rarely see local ISD's, or ISD-scale ships, attached to the planet. But you are right in the underlying logic.

Well, my calculations were originally written as upper limits. I think if I were to re-do them now, I would remove the ISDs assigned for planetary defence in the core regions (perhaps more VSDs for the task tho), but simultaneously increase the number of sector groups to account for the much greater number of large oversectors and special projects that had them assigned. That would bring the number of ISDs down to around 300k while bringing up overall fleet levels. Not only that, but the calculations would no longer be an upper limit but rather a rough mid-range estimate.

Let me amend this by adding that my calculations were for the period of Endor, whereas the Imperial Sourcebook was set immediately after Yavin. Even assuming that the Death Star was consuming all the military-industrial capacity of the galaxy, which is clearly not true if it was supposed to be even farcically secret, the augmented fleets could be completed long before production on it had begun.

[Connor MacLeod]

There are in fact valid reasons to expect that the "Order of Battle" In the ISB would NOT be realistically met (at least in the timeframe around ANH). The Senate is still an obstacle to Palpatine's intentions prior to the completion of the Death Star - both politically and militarily (in fact, its quite probable that the military threat of the Senate is the reason WHY the Death Star was built, rather than simply building more conventional warships.)

I suspect that naval expansion to the point that the OOB suggests would have been seen as a sign of aggression by the Senate, and unified them against Palpatine (in fact, the dissolution of the senate and the existence of the Death Star more than likely lead to those problems Palpatine was hoping to avoid - which in turn meant he probably had to scramble to expand his fleets and risk an arms race in order to maintain control. Which in turn probably explains why no real attempt to build another Death Star occured until 3 years after Yavin.)

[Enforcer Talen]

conner, if ds2 could be built in secret, then the militarization of the movies would be practically inconsequential to a galactic budget.

[Connor MacLeod]

conner, if ds2 could be built in secret, then the militarization of the movies would be practically inconsequential to a galactic budget.

What are you talking about? I'm discussing the opposition of the Senate (and subsequent open Rebellion ensuing post Yavin). Where exactly did I talk about a "galactic budget?"

[Enforcer Talen]

why would they oppose something that costs about as much as a coast guard boat for congress?

[SirNitram]

My only quarrel with you on that point, Marina, is that we so rarely see local ISD's, or ISD-scale ships, attached to the planet. But you are right in the underlying logic.

Well, my calculations were originally written as upper limits. I think if I were to re-do them now, I would remove the ISDs assigned for planetary defence in the core regions (perhaps more VSDs for the task tho), but simultaneously increase the number of sector groups to account for the much greater number of large oversectors and special projects that had them assigned. That would bring the number of ISDs down to around 300k while bringing up overall fleet levels. Not only that, but the calculations would no longer be an upper limit but rather a rough mid-range estimate.

Ah. They were upper limits? See, that's never mentioned by those who trot them out and demand they're perfectly fine as midline or even minimums. Yes, I think they're reliable as upper limits.

Let me amend this by adding that my calculations were for the period of Endor, whereas the Imperial Sourcebook was set immediately after Yavin. Even assuming that the Death Star was consuming all the military-industrial capacity of the galaxy, which is clearly not true if it was supposed to be even farcically secret, the augmented fleets could be completed long before production on it had begun.

I agree that, if the Empire knuckled down hard, it could build fleets that match or dwarf your estimates. I just object to assuming this when you can, in fact, swing a mynock without hitting an FTL warship.

[Connor MacLeod]

why would they oppose something that costs about as much as a coast guard boat for congress?

Because it enhances Palpatine's own authority, which in turns becomes a challenge and threat to their own. Palpatine's ultimate goal was to remove the Senate entirely, ,after all, and that is something they are not simply going to accept.

[Enforcer Talen]

why would they oppose something that costs about as much as a coast guard boat for congress?

Because it enhances Palpatine's own authority, which in turns becomes a challenge and threat to their own. Palpatine's ultimate goal was to remove the Senate entirely, ,after all, and that is something they are not simply going to accept.

the senate had no power. they gave him emergency powers in aotc

[Enforcer Talen]

My only quarrel with you on that point, Marina, is that we so rarely see local ISD's, or ISD-scale ships, attached to the planet. But you are right in the underlying logic.

Well, my calculations were originally written as upper limits. I think if I were to re-do them now, I would remove the ISDs assigned for planetary defence in the core regions (perhaps more VSDs for the task tho), but simultaneously increase the number of sector groups to account for the much greater number of large oversectors and special projects that had them assigned. That would bring the number of ISDs down to around 300k while bringing up overall fleet levels. Not only that, but the calculations would no longer be an upper limit but rather a rough mid-range estimate.

Ah. They were upper limits? See, that's never mentioned by those who trot them out and demand they're perfectly fine as midline or even minimums. Yes, I think they're reliable as upper limits.

Let me amend this by adding that my calculations were for the period of Endor, whereas the Imperial Sourcebook was set immediately after Yavin. Even assuming that the Death Star was consuming all the military-industrial capacity of the galaxy, which is clearly not true if it was supposed to be even farcically secret, the augmented fleets could be completed long before production on it had begun.

I agree that, if the Empire knuckled down hard, it could build fleets that match or dwarf your estimates. I just object to assuming this when you can, in fact, swing a mynock without hitting an FTL warship.

"Incidentally, the total number of crewers required for
this fleet comes out as roughly 40% of the population of
Coruscant. (Assuming the accepted figure of 650 trillion
people).

Considering the number of worlds the Empire has.. Even
with an army, they're still under-militarized."

from the link I posted on page 2.

duchess, is your most recent post a change in stance on the militarization of the empire?

[Connor MacLeod]

Ah. They were upper limits? See, that's never mentioned by those who trot them out and demand they're perfectly fine as midline or even minimums. Yes, I think they're reliable as upper limits.

They're upper limits in the sense that they assume a fully augmented Sector Group (filled to capacity, in other words). They also are rather conservative in a sense that the absolute numbers you derive from them depend on how many Sectors are inferred to exist within the Empire (Marina's assume around 1000-1500 Sectors i believe, far less than what can be plausibly estimated.) Thus, one could arguably propose tens of millions of ships (or even hundreds of millions) without the necessity of assuming that the OOB was "maxed out" the way Duchess' calcs do.

[Connor MacLeod]

why would they oppose something that costs about as much as a coast guard boat for congress?

Because it enhances Palpatine's own authority, which in turns becomes a challenge and threat to their own. Palpatine's ultimate goal was to remove the Senate entirely, ,after all, and that is something they are not simply going to accept.

the senate had no power. they gave him emergency powers in aotc

Yes, thats why the Senate was such a big concern in ANH.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

"Incidentally, the total number of crewers required for
this fleet comes out as roughly 40% of the population of
Coruscant. (Assuming the accepted figure of 650 trillion
people).

Considering the number of worlds the Empire has.. Even
with an army, they're still under-militarized."

from the link I posted on page 2.

duchess, is your most recent post a change in stance on the militarization of the empire?

No. I'm just saying that according to population estimates of the Galactic Empire the number of personnel in uniform is pitifully small. Generally 1% of the population in uniform was considered about the average for a peacetime military a century ago. In that context the Empire makes Canada look militaristic.

[Enforcer Talen]

rebel sympathizers in the senate seems different from a threat to his authority, neh? palpatine was quite clear that he regarded the entire rebellion as insignificant.

[Enforcer Talen]

"Incidentally, the total number of crewers required for
this fleet comes out as roughly 40% of the population of
Coruscant. (Assuming the accepted figure of 650 trillion
people).

Considering the number of worlds the Empire has.. Even
with an army, they're still under-militarized."

from the link I posted on page 2.

duchess, is your most recent post a change in stance on the militarization of the empire?

No. I'm just saying that according to population estimates of the Galactic Empire the number of personnel in uniform is pitifully small. Generally 1% of the population in uniform was considered about the average for a peacetime military a century ago. In that context the Empire makes Canada look militaristic.

so that shows the full militarization of what they had, not what they were capable of?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

rebel sympathizers in the senate seems different from a threat to his authority, neh? palpatine was quite clear that he regarded the entire rebellion as insignificant.

You have to distinguish between people who want to end the Empire (the rebels), and people who want to be Emperor themselves instead of Palpatine. Warlordism is a demonstrated occurrence even before Endor.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

so that shows the full militarization of what they had, not what they were capable of?

I think you're taking my later quote out of context, to be blunt. My reference to the Death Star II requiring "the full military-industrial complex of the galaxy to build" previously was a reference to a minimum construction capability which has been demonstrated. My reference to the Empire being under-militarized was in regard to manpower. The two are totally unrelated and anyway the first is just a baseline extreme minimum.

[Connor MacLeod]

rebel sympathizers in the senate seems different from a threat to his authority, neh? palpatine was quite clear that he regarded the entire rebellion as insignificant.

The Senate controlled the bureacracy ("How will the Emperor maintain control without the bureacracy?") at the very minimum. They would need additional strength in some other (likely military) form as well to prevent Palpatine from simply steamrolling them with a greatly expanded fleet (He needed the Death Stars with which to threaten the Senate, since he apparently could not effectively do this with standard naval assets of any size.)

Furthermore, Leia's diplomatic immunity (again from ANH) would not have been of any consequence if the Senate had no authority.

I suggest you go to domuspublica.net and read the essay "All the Emperor's Men" to get a better grasp of the relationship between Palpatine and the Imperial Senate.

[PainRack]

You have to distinguish between people who want to end the Empire (the rebels), and people who want to be Emperor themselves instead of Palpatine. Warlordism is a demonstrated occurrence even before Endor.

Isn't that more difficult in "reality" than not? We really only have the word of the Rebel Alliance that they totally crushed every single "warlord" out there, and that every "warlord" is a bad guy.

However, the fact that the Rebels accepted the surrender of Imperial worlds and governors, assimilated Imperial military forces into their own all suggested that after the battle of Coruscant, the New Republic most likely engendered a coalition of "warlords" into her wing.

There are in fact valid reasons to expect that the "Order of Battle" In the ISB would NOT be realistically met (at least in the timeframe around ANH). The Senate is still an obstacle to Palpatine's intentions prior to the completion of the Death Star - both politically and militarily (in fact, its quite probable that the military threat of the Senate is the reason WHY the Death Star was built, rather than simply building more conventional warships.)

Both of us know that in lieu of the Endor fleet being the sector fleet for the area, reinforced by Death Squadron, its extremely likely that the OoB was fulfilled, as that fleet was at least 18 ISDs for the sector fleet alone.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I see now what you were trying to rave about. Fine, no Spheres in the OOB. You could have saved so much damn trouble by simply saying that, but no, you had to go on your spiel.

Fuck you, Martin. You did EXACTLY WHAT YOU WERE ACCUSING ME OF.

You're a fucking hypocrite. It was YOU in YOUR shrill, loony desire to rant and rave against me that you couldn't even bother yourself to read what I actually said, much less remember what YOU YOURSELF said just one post prior.

Oh, and yet another example of your inability to read or remember just about anything (be it WEG material, my posts, hell, your posts, etc.):

Actually, Martin, you're wrong. The OOB as it exists for a Sector Group contains no Bombard Fleets, thus no Force Bombards, thus no Bombard Squadrons, thus no Torpedo Lines, and thus not a single Torpedo Sphere.

Sorry, I DID SAY EXACTLY THAT.

This is only the third time I've had to quote back either your or my own posts. Oddly, I have responded succintly to everything you have made and haven't disregarded a single thing. Oddly, I'm the loony one with a vendetta who can't think straight.

Fine, I'll take that. At least I have an attention span longer than five minutes.

And I kind of like to post my quotes and evidence, unlike you who just spouts whatever floated to the top of your skull.

As I said here:

I admitted it might be necessary. The only thing I'm disputing is your dishonesty.

You MAY BE RIGHT that the ISB has to be "re-interpreted" so everything fits. But this is commonly known as a cludge. You're self-important praising that Lonely Martin, the Lone Guardian of Logic And Science is encorporating all the evidence is pure bullshit, and for four posts now, that's all I've been trying to say. Regardless of how you spin and spin, the ISB explicitly states its purpose and content as mutually exclusive from what you claim it is. Not only does it claim to represent at worst the average current content of sector military resources, it already includes projected increases, thus discounting the possibility that the original figures are already increases. The ISB makes its own distinction between "to be increased" formations, and "existing formations."

Your claims that you were going totally with the evidence are bullshit. You HAVE TO selectively ignore or contradict certain parts of the ISB in order to make the cludge fit, and so in the end you're altering evidence to suit what you think is the best conclusion. THAT'S OK (I took the liberty of adding extra emphasis since you apparently have 20/1000 vision and forgot your reading glasses when it comes to my posts). You have your case with multiple instances of opposing corrobating evidence. But you couldn't just say that. You had to go on this self-important speech like you always do, ranting and raving about the uneducated, irrational masses or some tripe like that:

I don't know where you learned science and logic, but the only theories worth a damn incorporate all evidence, not toss it out.

But hey. I'm just doing the logical thing and including all availiable evidence. This is apparently taboo for you.

So your answer is to completely disregard all other evidence?

Fuck you Martin. You are a hypocrite.

Oh wow. Yes, let's not discuss what a vessel capable of dropping a planetary shield and then shaking a planet to 'Disruption'

First of all, dropping the shields is not an issue of firepower. The weapon uses highly specialized shield-disrupting torpedoes. And I remind you they do not inflict equivalent damage on other targets, to its not brute force - the Torpedo Sphere's torpedos are rated at less than half the damage of each of the VSD II's torpedos, 4D v. 9D. (And from AOTC ICS comparison to RPG sources, we know RPG stats HIGHLY COMPRESS the differences in firepower - several orders of magnitude between light and heavy Acclamator guns to within a single order of magnitude, so its probably the disparity in firepower is actually measurable in factors of ten.) to punch through weak spots in the shield, and then destroy the generator with a turbolaser.

Ok, so for being over ten times the volume of the VSD the Torpedo Sphere has less than three times the missile firepower.

And you're mixing and matching in your INABILITY TO READ, again, Martin. The "total disruption" (whatever that means, though I assume it means causing geologic activity to the degree that the planet becomes uninhabitable) applies to SSDs only, not to Torpedo Spheres. Accept the gravshock is not mounted aboard SSDs, and I quote, "...but it has no need of such a weapon considering the armaments it packs."

Oh what's that mean? Its hypothetical. So practically, "total disruption" is irrelevent because there's no gravshock being fed enough power to do it.

And nice semantics whoring (since the Torpedo Sphere is explicitly not included to be capable of feeding "total disruption," but that doesn't stop you), to buy one of your favorite cliches. The effective (read: existing capability) effects are explicitly described:

By localizing a planet’s gravity, the gravshock waves can simulate earthquakes, floods, and other natural disasters. Unfortunately, time and power make this weapon somewhat impractical on the everyday scale...

...Crushing cities in upon themselves, shaking them to pieces, redirecting waterways to make the most of their destructive power, the gravshock device is worthy of Imperial thinking and use.

This amount of energy is almost certainly sub-BDZ, so I do not see why it is so important.

In any case, you have no estimate. Would you like to calculate the amount of energy to cause large earthquakes?

would mean firepower-wise: Discuss only it's reactor output! The hypocrisy is enormous. If you want to discuss reactor-output, then your quoted statement is blatant, burning hypocrisy, and the point about 25,000 ISD's, each capable of BDZing an aqueaous world with their guns, will suffice the standard.

THAN RUN THE CALCULATION, MARTIN.

I'm sick and fucking tired of your speeches and grandstanding. You keep making self-important spiels about your superior debating and logic. Well you say that Ender's estimates are wildly inaccurate. ESTIMATE THE POWER ABSORBED BY THE PLANET, ADD IT WITH YOUR OTHER ESTIMATES, AND GIVE 1 E 38.

You say you're right, so fucking prove it instead of attacking my language. You say wonders like this do the trick to meet the standard. SO FUCKING PROVE IT.

It is not my job to invalidate whatever proposed trash you dredge up. Do your own fucking homework.

You say it'll suffice, so you substanciate your hot air.

If you are instead talking about firepower, let's discuss the implications of six vessels capable of de-shielding a planet and then shaking it so hard everyone on the surface is dead, which is a pretty conservative estimation of 'Destroyed', when the text reads 'Total planetary disruption'.

Except "total disruption" is a subjective term and has no qualifiers attached to determine what that actually means, and is a hypothetical proposal regarding if it was mounted on a SSD, which it is not.

So those six vessels have at least sixty times the mass of a VSD, and have less than seventeen times the firepower. Gotcha.

And you haven't quantified the gravshock effects yet. I'm waiting. And there's no excuse for "accidentally confusing" the hypothetical SSD mount with the described effects for the existing Torpedo Sphere model since I've spoon-fed you it several times now.

Six Gravito-Shock devices, as they appear to be mounted on Torp Spheres.

As for the damage they do, it is quantifiable.

It is not my job to invalidate whatever proposed trash you dredge up. Do your own fucking homework.

You say it'll suffice, so you substanciate your hot air.

But like comic fan-whores and fantasy retards, you run away from anything that isn't easy. Typical.

You're a shitty debator, Martin. Your modus operandi is to compare people to various "evil people" without any substance. There should be a Godwin's Law regarding you and references to "comic retards," "fantasy loonies," "creationists," etc.

Anyway, you proposed it as a gap-closer. So guess what?

It is not my job to invalidate whatever proposed trash you dredge up. Do your own fucking homework.

You say it'll suffice, so you substanciate your hot air.

Six vessels capable of devastating shielded planets means alot of firepower if we're talking about damage potential. Again, if we're talking about Reactor Output, you've got egg on your face...

Alright, I'll explain it to you since your brain is deficient.

The superlaser was 3.4E38 joules and fired for .21 seconds on Alderaan. As previously noted, this should be higher since that's really just the kinetic energy content of the debris. That is 1.62E39 watts. Divide that by 1E24, and you get 1.62E15.

We're underballing again, but let's use the typical bare 1E38 figure. Divide by 1E24, and you have 1E15.

You can even go down to the 1E33 figure, the lamented time averaged reactor output. Divide by 1E24 (Mike's BDZ figure - so we're using the ISD figured firepower as an average) and you get 1E9.

You need A LOT of big ships to average out a billion ships with equivalent to ISD firepower. It gets even worse with a palty 10 million estimates starfleet. And you were just arguing that there couldn't be more than 8, then 16 Executor-class ships.

The largest ships in the Empire AFTER Dodonna's remark are the Executors. And they have 5000 weapon emplacements roughly comparable to an ISD II's main turrets. That's 7.81E25. Even dividing with that figure yields 12.8 million ships - that's using a huge vessel the Navy brass whined about that was built AFTER Yavin as a basis. The largest vessels we know of as of Yavin were possibly the Mandator-class battleships.

And since the ship numbers are obviously distributed logarthmically like a pyramid - increasing as you get lower, the mean should be biased toward the small.

And despite all that, we're still unfairly comparing the ISD's firepower to the Death Star's time-averaged reactor output.

I've got my ducks in a row, as much as you'd love to screech that I don't.

Do the calcs yourself then, and show it adding up.

I've shown the weight of evidence is against the OOB being filled, I've shown you to be a zealot trying to save face with your constant strawmanning of my position that the OOB is not yet filled,

Bullshit, I'm just sick your self-important preaching.

and I've certainly shown you as a hypocrit with this ridiculous 'IT'S NOT REACTOR POWER!' and then 'UH, STOP, WAIT, REACTOR POWER!' dance.

Give me a break. Reactor power estimated from reactor volume places a neat limit on gun firepower on most warships. Why would you use it when you have a completely canonical view of firepower from a ship? And besides, the calcs above are all based on BDZ figures, not reactor power.

How's the meal service on Planet Delusion?

How many times have I had to quote either myself or yourself back to you, Martin?

Grandstander? You pathetic little worm.

:yawn:

and trying to twist this into some sort of vendetta,

You spiked the word first, and all I did was cite you spewing the identical argument to someone else AFTER YOU CLAIMED YOU NEVER MADE IT BEFORE. Fuck off, Martin. You made the claim, and I showed you were lying. Don't whine to me.

when you're the one waiting for me to post here,

Really, Martin? Let's examine your post history.

Martin's Thread #1

Martin's Thread #2

Martin's Thread #3

Martin's Thread #4

Martin's Thread #5

Martin's Thread #6

Martin's Thread #7

Martin's Thread #8

Martin's Thread #9

Martin's Thread #10

Where's my flaming you? Where's my waiting for you? Where's my vendetta.

In fact, in order to find one of our flamewars, you have to go back to this thread in January. That's right, the very same one you claim is ancient, and lamented my remember something in which you emphasized how long ago it was:

You keep notes from threads over a year old just for these little vendettas?

Funny you didn't remember that thread, yet you remember by Evil Vendetta (tm) (which piques apparently with a 10-month frequency ) even though its the last example of my supposed hounding over you (nevermind the 10 threads with numerous posts you made in PSW since then where I did not address you at all).

and then dragging up ancient history in a vague effort to impress your fans.

What fans, dumbass? No one's arguing with me here. I just think you're a dumbfuck, and I aim to show it, which I have amply with your repetative ignoring of posts (both yours and mine), calcs (Ender's), and evidence (repetative WEG quotes).

I'm not the one spouting, verbatim, Creationist-grade asshattery about 'Absense of evidence is not evidence of absense!'.

Its true, idiot. Its completely absurd to regard the number of Executors seen as an upper limit if a figure on the number ever constructed does not exist.

I am not the one committing blatant hypocrisy for all to see and pretending it's the other guy.

Like your last post with its pretentious preening about how I confuse your posts when you couldn't even remember the fact of what your last post said?

Crawl back into your hole.

Blow me, Martin. I've done all the work here, and you've just bitched.

I provided ALL the evidence, have done ALL the calcs, provided ALL the examples.

You are hot air. Go back to Fantasy where this shit flies.