TIE Defenders to expensive?!?!?

[Jim Raynor]

TIE Phantoms completely ignored the fact that SW cloaking devices cause a double blind. I don't remember whether they had to decloak to shoot, but a pilot would still have be able to navigate and track his target while still cloaked. This wouldn't work unless all the Phantom pilots had Force skills like Maul or C'Baoth did.

[nightmare]

If the Empire could build the Death Stars they could easily have used the TIE Defenders. They did not use them because they are basically 'fan-boy-ish' in nature. They are too powerful and their existence really upsets the balance between the roles of the capital ships and the starfighters.

Fuck off. TIE Defenders are not fanboyish. The only fanboyish fighters I've seen are those X-wings with the 3rd torp launcher. Defenders are not capship killers, but they are superpredators when it comes to fighter combat.

TIE Phantoms, Missile Boats, K-Wings, and Virago are all fan-boy creations. That in no way makes them less cool, but their observed combat performance is so vastly in excess of what has been seen in the SW universe so as to make them out-of-place. The TIE Defender is similarly designed, and while undoubtedly an impressive fighter, its kiloton scale weapons are no match for gigaton level shielding on many capital ships. There is simply no way that the starfighters shown in the games are as powerful as they are depicted as being.

I don't agree with this. Phantoms are not overly powerful in anything, they rate lower than TIE Advanced in terms of maneouvreability and firepower. Their ability to cloak is their only unique capability (for such a small vessel).

K-Wings have a large payload, but only a little more than B-Wings, with less beam weapons. I don't find it excessive in any way.

Virago is a unique ship. Standard Vipers are no where near it.

The Missile Boat is the only thing that can be said to have excessive firepower. But if it can really mount all those missiles, it would indeed work.. though it should fly like a brick. The Mk I version with 40 warheads was a damned lot, the 80 missile version is overkill.

[Kuja]

TIE Phantoms, Missile Boats, K-Wings, and Virago are all fan-boy creations. That in no way makes them less cool, but their observed combat performance is so vastly in excess of what has been seen in the SW universe so as to make them out-of-place.

TIE Phantom: wankfest. Completely ignores the "double-blind" drawback of SW cloaking.
Missile Boat: Meh. *waggles hand*
K-Wing: steers like a bathtub. 'Nuff said.
Virago: no comment (not enough info for me)

The TIE Defender is similarly designed, and while undoubtedly an impressive fighter, its kiloton scale weapons are no match for gigaton level shielding on many capital ships. There is simply no way that the starfighters shown in the games are as powerful as they are depicted as being.

Games are full of it. They have to be, or they wouldn't be nearly as much fun.

[Lex]

to comeback to the topic, i definitly think that the prob was the money! alto the DS, or other the Galaxy Cannon coasted lots of money, but they were a)unique units, and b)built to be undestroyable. But if u want to have T/D's in a whole fleet, you need new fabrics, mass production, and u will have to reset lost fighters, and train new pilots for a new type of fighter. all that will prolly cost much more money than a DS project!

[Kuja]

to comeback to the topic, i definitly think that the prob was the money! alto the DS, or other the Galaxy Cannon coasted lots of money, but they were a)unique units, and b)built to be undestroyable.

They were also built to be terror weapons, which meant that high costs were considered an easy trade-off.

But if u want to have T/D's in a whole fleet, you need new fabrics, mass production, and u will have to reset lost fighters, and train new pilots for a new type of fighter. all that will prolly cost much more money than a DS project!

Retrain all the pilots? ROFL. It's stated that even ace pilots have trouble cotrolling the Defender and tapping its limits. No way a cadet could handle this monster.

[Lex]

to comeback to the topic, i definitly think that the prob was the money! alto the DS, or other the Galaxy Cannon coasted lots of money, but they were a)unique units, and b)built to be undestroyable.

They were also built to be terror weapons, which meant that high costs were considered an easy trade-off.

But if u want to have T/D's in a whole fleet, you need new fabrics, mass production, and u will have to reset lost fighters, and train new pilots for a new type of fighter. all that will prolly cost much more money than a DS project!

Retrain all the pilots? ROFL. It's stated that even ace pilots have trouble cotrolling the Defender and tapping its limits. No way a cadet could handle this monster.

however, that only strenghtens my theory(or however u spell that)

[Currald]

Would this be a good time to point out that the TIE Interceptor actually has ten cannons, rather than four?

[Master of Ossus]

Would this be a good time to point out that the TIE Interceptor actually has ten cannons, rather than four?

Not really, and I don't believe that anyway. We've only seen six of them ever fire.

[Spartan]

Whoa! I forgot I even started this thread.

Just a few thoughts:

On the Tie Phantom: There is no reason that the phantoms could not have employed a cloak that operated on a different system than the Thawn version. Off the top of my head I can think of three instances in comics where the cloaks aren'y double blinds, and don't rely on the Sith Infiltrators magical crystals Besides its canon, so we just have to deal. Not all SW cloaks are double blinds.

Fighters vs ISD: MOO is right that fighters are inferior to capital ships, and they can't perform capital ships missions. But they're not intended to. There are a number of significant missions that hyperspace capable fighter is useful. Scouting for instance: sure probots are great but droids are limited, some targets need to be eyeballed, and in most cases using an ISD would be wasteful or counterpoductive. Also during most of the Imperial era pirates and smugglers are a far greater threat than the Rebellion. An ISD would be a waste on such inferior ships, hyperdrive equiped fighter units, garrisoned at key points along a hyperlane could be very effective. I completely agree that they do not need the Defender. I just take issue that a Government that can build artifical moons an harness neutron stars and black holes, could not afford the Defender if they choose to. I not saying there are no limits, just that this is well within the limits.

World Devestators: You know I can't recall the books name but I remember reading about a similar technology called the "Santa Clause Machine" that nasa had studied for use on near earth asteroids. The WD are von neuman machines, selfreplicating etc. My guess as to why we never see them mentioned again it that they would unbalance the SW universe to much. That and its essentially a BIG droid, and no body trusted sentient droids.

[Currald]

Well, if I see ten identical pieces of equipment on a machine, I don't consider it to be unreasonable to assume that all ten do the same thing. An assumption isn't proof, but I will continue to assume that sources stating four cannons are contradictory to the primary source material (i.e. the films). Or, a more inclusive interpretation is that there are two (or more) models of TIE Interceptor.

The Dark Empire Sourcebook states that the World Devastators cannot make more World Devastators, so they aren't von Neuman machines. I'm sure that an upgrade would be relatively simply, however.

The Empire must have has some purpose in mind when they started developement of the TIE Defender. It seems clear to me that they were trying to compete directly with the superior Rebel fighters, which were used in hit and run raids, primarily. Is there a situation where the Empire would want to do hit and run raids, where low attrition was a factor for mission success?

[consequences]

The World Devestators may not self-replicate, but they can enlarge themselves, and thus increase the speed that they can devour and manufacture things.

[Master of Ossus]

The World Devestators may not self-replicate, but they can enlarge themselves, and thus increase the speed that they can devour and manufacture things.

The EU clearly indicates that they can create other World Devastators. I have always assumed that they can create the basic World Devastator, which then expands itself by "feeding" further on the planet.

[Kuja]

Well, if I see ten identical pieces of equipment on a machine, I don't consider it to be unreasonable to assume that all ten do the same thing. An assumption isn't proof, but I will continue to assume that sources stating four cannons are contradictory to the primary source material (i.e. the films). Or, a more inclusive interpretation is that there are two (or more) models of TIE Interceptor.

Lot production. A TIE of one lot might not match a TIE from another lot. Add in prototypes, and you can end up with a huge range of variations in one type of TIE.

The Dark Empire Sourcebook states that the World Devastators cannot make more World Devastators, so they aren't von Neuman machines. I'm sure that an upgrade would be relatively simply, however.

The Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels overrules the DES. A Devastator CAN produce other Devastators.

The Empire must have has some purpose in mind when they started developement of the TIE Defender. It seems clear to me that they were trying to compete directly with the superior Rebel fighters, which were used in hit and run raids, primarily. Is there a situation where the Empire would want to do hit and run raids, where low attrition was a factor for mission success?

The Defenders were meant to chew through enemy lines, not simply perform hit-and-runs.

[Master of Ossus]

TIE Defenders were not meant for strike and fade tactics. They were built to engage Alliance starfighters, and perhaps light freighters, with good success rates. Remember that the Empire is primarily trying to defend its capital ships and freighters against Alliance starfighters, and nearly all of their designs have been created with that in mind.

[Currald]

The Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels overrules the DES. A Devastator CAN produce other Devastators.

Ah! So it does. I stand... updated.

The Defenders were meant to chew through enemy lines, not simply perform hit-and-runs.

TIE Defenders were not meant for strike and fade tactics. They were built to engage Alliance starfighters, and perhaps light freighters, with good success rates. Remember that the Empire is primarily trying to defend its capital ships and freighters against Alliance starfighters, and nearly all of their designs have been created with that in mind.

Why the hyperdrive, then?

Maybe we would be better served by looking at what little evidence we have: the TIE/D missions from TIE Fighter. I'll go over them a bit and get back to ya'll.

[Kuja]

Why the hyperdrive, then?

Maybe we would be better served by looking at what little evidence we have: the TIE/D missions from TIE Fighter. I'll go over them a bit and get back to ya'll.

FLEXIBILITY. Far easier for a squadron of hype-equipped fighter to take off on a new mission when priorities change than to all pile back onto the momma ship.

INDEPENDENCE. When they're going in without other TIEs as backup, they need all the firepower they can get.

OPPONENTS. Designers of the Defender knew it would be going up against the X- and Y-wings of the Alliance, which were heavily armed and armored compared to TIE fighters. They wanted something another step up the toughness ladder. The Defender came through.

PURSUIT. If Alliance fighters suddenly broke off and went to hyper, the Defenders could follow, rather than pound the dashboard in frustration.