Some truths revealed by GL in AOTC

[Illuminatus Primus]

Yes it takes longer to get them, but they can be made to be more loyal and accept comands (read suicidal) that regular people would not take. Also the clones are desposable, " Oh a bunch were killed in action? Well I'll place an order next week." A truely fire and forget weapon, the stormtrooper.

Does anyone really think that the logistical costs and sheer stupidity of an all-clone army is worth their being a little more subservient to authority? Hitler did a damn good job w/ good old political techniques w/ the SS and many German people back in the '40's, eh?

Moreover, they should have the technology to make them less independently thinking if they can build the Death Star. Don't tell me they don't have complex drugs or surgery or some sort of gene therapy to help with the problem.

There's no way that the slightly less independent-ness of the clones makes them worth the enormously greater expenditure. Moreover, there's no way the New Republic.

[Stormbringer]

Yeah but you get a completely loyal soldier that you can order to do anything and he won't betray you, be bribed, or rebel. Every emperor needs a loyal royal guard to help him secure power, even bannana republic dictators understand that. So Palpy creates an army that is immune to bribes and seduction and will back him up no matter what. Also, perhaps the clones make it easier for him to manipulate their performance ala Zahn's theory.

Bull and you know that. The whole point of Kamino would be for Palpy to have a ready army so he could easily start a war, and nothing more: it's a bit harder to rouse the warmongering spirits when the tooling up and training and conscripting costs hit the desk of the Senators. Not to mention the political anathema of such an idea to an entity such as the Galactic Republic.

But you're only providing more evidence for the clone army notion. Sure he did it in secret in the beginning but there our advantages to keeping a completely loyal clone army especially when you rule purely by force.

(I think going back and making all the stormtroopes clones is dumb idea. )

[Illuminatus Primus]

I know you're arguing for Lucas, but we all know it's retarded. It's better to extend authority through the previously mostly indepedent planets by recruiting stormies. The risk of proliferating the cloning technology to the Rebellion and previously, the Seperatists would make it not worth it. The stormies don't have to be a crack uberforce, they're really just the internal security of a huge police state, so why waste time making them so damn expensive?

[Illuminatus Primus]

However, if I were Lucas, I'd say that the Stormtroopers weren't cloned but rather genetically tailored as embryos and recruited extensively from a few select families with strong military traditions - kind of a futuristic Waffen SS.

That's about the most brilliant idea I've heard yet on this thing.

[SirNitram]

People see so many contradictions where they don't exist.

The Thrawn Trilogies cloning system is completely different from the one seen in Ep II.

One produces a full clone in ten years. One produces it in a year(In a week, with Ysalamri).

One must be rigorously trained. The other simply has brain patterns etched into their mind instantly.

One is docile, prone to taking orders and not questioning them(If you can't see how this is a major weakness in a Rebellion..). The other is a full person.

And then you must think about the fact that...

A) With Jango gone, they will need new 'stock'. A simple small recruiting campaign will provide plenty of varied material, allowing for people with varied looks(Like Kanos).

B) The Empire has lost serious ground by the time Thrawn appears. Has anyone thought of the possibility they might have lost their main facilities?

[Illuminatus Primus]

People see so many contradictions where they don't exist.

IIRC, in the Thrawn Trilogy they do say that cloning was banned.

One is docile, prone to taking orders and not questioning them (If you can't see how this is a major weakness in a Rebellion..). The other is a full person.

Kanos, Davin Felth, etc showed creative and independent streaks. One held on to duty and formulated a strategy for avenging his Master beyond the orders of anyone, and Felth actually saw a design flaw in the AT-AT and eventually killed his superior officer whom he believed was corrupt.

I don't deny that its possible to stetch things to make sense, but I can't see how clones like those we saw in AoTC can fill these other roles.

A) With Jango gone, they will need new 'stock'. A simple small recruiting campaign will provide plenty of varied material, allowing for people with varied looks(Like Kanos).

The Royal Guards were selected from stormies who showed skill and an aptitude for the Force. Shouldn't the cloners know which clones had Force-potential and which did not? (Reference: Dark Side Sourcebook)

B) The Empire has lost serious ground by the time Thrawn appears. Has anyone thought of the possibility they might have lost their main facilities?

That's a stetch (its hard to imagine that somehow cloning was that highly restricted), but ultimately possible (perhaps the cloning planets in your view could've been in the Deep Core, shielded from the Civil War and in loyal Imperial hands?).

[Illuminatus Primus]

I'm not debating its impossible, because I know that's wrong and I know how things work, but I just think this Lucas retcon is retarded and I will personally disregard it.

[Typhonis 1]

here are some points to remeber after AOTC
1 Jango Fett is dead and a new source of DNA needed to be found

2 Identical clones are very vulnerable to geneengineered viruses

3 by Thrawns Era Stromtroopers were rare meaning that the cloning of them was not occuring or that the supply just couldnt keep up with the demand

4by NJO the Empire may need to recruit Troopers like all other oldiers

Here you have an explanation for Lucass and the EUs vision of the clones

Yes in the OT the Troopers were clones but not of just one person

[Illuminatus Primus]

What about Kyp Durron's brother?

[Knife]

What about Kyp Durron's brother?

Do you really need another reason to know that KJA's work is crap.

[Stormbringer]

What about Kyp Durron's brother?

It's possible they recruit (or conscript) in small numbers with the intention of finding new and more varied soldiers. They could then modify them for suceeding generations of clones. That could be how they can use just Carida as a military academy.

[neoolong]

here are some points to remeber after AOTC
1 Jango Fett is dead and a new source of DNA needed to be found

2 Identical clones are very vulnerable to geneengineered viruses

3 by Thrawns Era Stromtroopers were rare meaning that the cloning of them was not occuring or that the supply just couldnt keep up with the demand

4by NJO the Empire may need to recruit Troopers like all other oldiers

Here you have an explanation for Lucass and the EUs vision of the clones

Yes in the OT the Troopers were clones but not of just one person

Why would they need a new source if Jango is dead? Surely they must have had some stored DNA in storage somewhere. Considering that Jango wasn't confined to Kamino there was a chance, given that he is a bounty hunter, that he would die somewhere. The Kaminoans probably thought of a contingency in case this happened. Or else they are incredibly stupid.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Furthermore, Lucas has consistently changed his opinions both in and outside the movies over and over again. Since his opinion stated in the commentary is not in the movie, and he didn't find a way to put it in the movie or chose not to, it isn't part of the explicit movie canon, IMHO. He changes his mind too damn much. Since the in-universe movie canon tells me that the OT stormtroopers have different voices and different heights, then they're not clones since this isn't contradicted by official data. Lucas' opinion is subject to change and is quite stupid. Furthermore he didn't insert it into the movie, so I'll convienently forget it.

I may not have the technical ability to argue to above, but that's my personal view.

Also: KJA's work isn't crap because he actually remained consistent with Zahn here. Don't pick at the man just because a lot of his shit doesn't make sense. Here it does. And Carida is NOT the only Imperial Academy. Emperor's Hand Shire Brie graduated from the Coruscant Academy, IIRC w/ full honors.

[Stormbringer]

here are some points to remeber after AOTC
1 Jango Fett is dead and a new source of DNA needed to be found

2 Identical clones are very vulnerable to geneengineered viruses

3 by Thrawns Era Stromtroopers were rare meaning that the cloning of them was not occuring or that the supply just couldnt keep up with the demand

4by NJO the Empire may need to recruit Troopers like all other oldiers

Here you have an explanation for Lucass and the EUs vision of the clones

Yes in the OT the Troopers were clones but not of just one person

Why would they need a new source if Jango is dead? Surely they must have had some stored DNA in storage somewhere. Considering that Jango wasn't confined to Kamino there was a chance, given that he is a bounty hunter, that he would die somewhere. The Kaminoans probably thought of a contingency in case this happened. Or else they are incredibly stupid.

Or it might be the DNA samples can only be used to so many times. And as it has been suggested they might simply want a bit of genetic diversity.

[Knife]

here are some points to remeber after AOTC
1 Jango Fett is dead and a new source of DNA needed to be found

2 Identical clones are very vulnerable to geneengineered viruses

3 by Thrawns Era Stromtroopers were rare meaning that the cloning of them was not occuring or that the supply just couldnt keep up with the demand

4by NJO the Empire may need to recruit Troopers like all other oldiers

Here you have an explanation for Lucass and the EUs vision of the clones

Yes in the OT the Troopers were clones but not of just one person

Why would they need a new source if Jango is dead? Surely they must have had some stored DNA in storage somewhere. Considering that Jango wasn't confined to Kamino there was a chance, given that he is a bounty hunter, that he would die somewhere. The Kaminoans probably thought of a contingency in case this happened. Or else they are incredibly stupid.

You might run into the problem of a copy of a copy of a copy slowly getting worse.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Or it might be the DNA samples can only be used to so many times. And as it has been suggested they might simply want a bit of genetic diversity.

Exactly. So why not recruit people or rely on the other "Imp SS" idea? It's not cost-effective. There's no way its worth it.

I'll just believe GL is senile to myself and be done.

[Stormbringer]

Or it might be the DNA samples can only be used to so many times. And as it has been suggested they might simply want a bit of genetic diversity.

Exactly. So why not recruit people or rely on the other "Imp SS" idea? It's not cost-effective. There's no way its worth it.

Because Palpatine wants a loyal army of enforecers. Remember that Stormtroopers are generally used to do the dirtiest deeds you don't want them to suddenly flinch. It's to create and army of extremely loyal enforcers and damn the cost.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Because Palpatine wants a loyal army of enforecers. Remember that Stormtroopers are generally used to do the dirtiest deeds you don't want them to suddenly flinch. It's to create and army of extremely loyal enforcers and damn the cost.

Brainbug. Now you have to clone to make loyal troops who will commit atrocities? If you look through history, its really easy to brainwash large numbers or people and really easy to get troops to commit atrocities.

[Stormbringer]

Because Palpatine wants a loyal army of enforecers. Remember that Stormtroopers are generally used to do the dirtiest deeds you don't want them to suddenly flinch. It's to create and army of extremely loyal enforcers and damn the cost.

Brainbug. Now you have to clone to make loyal troops who will commit atrocities? If you look through history, its really easy to brainwash large numbers or people and really easy to get troops to commit atrocities.

I'm not saying it isn't. But he wants an army with absolute loyalty. He can get that from the clones, recruits will always be somewhat suspect.

[Typhonis 1]

My point is is that said source of Jangos DNA would eventually run out I mean even if they had 20 million cells that means they may only get 20 million clones of him what then?

[neoolong]

My point is is that said source of Jangos DNA would eventually run out I mean even if they had 20 million cells that means they may only get 20 million clones of him what then?

It depends on the cloning process. Is that how cloning is done by the Kaminoans?

[Sokar]

First off I personally don't care at all if GL's ideas screw over the EU, I've found most of the books to be utter crap. after "Darksaber" I swore to never read another one. So for me they have nothing to do with anything. Second , this is HIS world, he can alter it at will , you, me or any other fan boy has NO say in it nor does he really care if he steps on some SW junkies toes by changing things to suit his current vision.

Now with that said , the idea of Stormies as clones works for me. There are several instances in the material produced for the original books and the West End RPG(don't even start with the errors in scale and weaponry argument, these are GAMES , not exercises in mindless fandom devotion) that state that the Stormtroopers just sort of "appear" they have no logistics train , training centers or recruitment centers, Places like the Coruscant Military Academy and Caraidia are all Imperial Army training centers. This is an improtant distinction, Stormtroopers are the Elite shock troops of the Empire, they exist in small numbers and are used for very specific purposes. The Imperial Army on the other hand forms the bulk of the Imperial might , recruited or consripted from across the Empire and trained in a few months , just like current armies. Stormtroopers are NOT the entierty of the Imperial ground forces. With this in mind the idea of them all being clones works , and even Kamino as the sole source of the clones works. With the size of the Empire and the need for continual replacement of losses , Kamino could have turned their entire planetary economy over to the production of cloned, highquality Stormtroopers for Palpatine and the Empire and probably become insanely wealthy at the same time. (During the Clone War there is mention in the Zhan books that clones produced to quickly suffered from insanity and emotional instability, this is what likely led to the outlawing of large scale cloning after the end of the War) Remember though that Palpy is the winner of said war , so suitably he gets to make the rules. The law banning cloning keeps anyone else from trying the same idea. Kamino had already been expunged form the Jedi and no doubt Republic archives, and the only ones who knew of its precise location and existence , the Jedi, are dead by the time of ANH and the Rebellion.

As for arguments for the recruiting of Stormtroopers post ROTJ, with the death of the Emperor at Endor , the Kaminoans lost their contact with the Imperial gov't, and probably shut down the production lines as they saw the rapid decline of the Empire and its replacement with the New Republlic, who would no doubt take a dim view of their interaction with the Emperor. Wealthy beyond measure from decades of Republic and Imperial payments, and protected by the cloak of invisibility granted by erasure, probably retreated into the crowds of strange worlds beyond the Outer Rim. With the tap closed , Imperial Warlords began Stormtrooper recruitment campaigns , expanded the academies to include ST's and fought each other and the Republic.

Thats my two bits

[SirNitram]

My point is is that said source of Jangos DNA would eventually run out I mean even if they had 20 million cells that means they may only get 20 million clones of him what then?

It depends on the cloning process. Is that how cloning is done by the Kaminoans?

Given that they kept Jango around, it would seem so.

[Admiral Piett]

I know you're arguing for Lucas, but we all know it's retarded. It's better to extend authority through the previously mostly indepedent planets by recruiting stormies. The risk of proliferating the cloning technology to the Rebellion and previously, the Seperatists would make it not worth it. The stormies don't have to be a crack uberforce, they're really just the internal security of a huge police state, so why waste time making them so damn expensive?

The SW galaxy is in a state of technological plateau.Cloning technology is probably in the possibilities every industrialized world,although this does not mean that they would be as much as good at cloning as the Kaminoans.
For the rebel clones are not an option for a variety of reasons.And the separatists have droids which,if designed decently,are the ultimate soldiers.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Because Palpatine wants a loyal army of enforecers. Remember that Stormtroopers are generally used to do the dirtiest deeds you don't want them to suddenly flinch. It's to create and army of extremely loyal enforcers and damn the cost.

Brainbug. Now you have to clone to make loyal troops who will commit atrocities? If you look through history, its really easy to brainwash large numbers or people and really easy to get troops to commit atrocities.

I'm not saying it isn't. But he wants an army with absolute loyalty. He can get that from the clones, recruits will always be somewhat suspect.

Palpatine's not Stalin. Here's a smart man. He is not that paranoid. He knows there's no such things as absolutes and you're stretching things here. There's little intelligent reason to expend so much over clones that offer so little more then recruits.