Clone Wars Chapter 21 to 25, revelations on Jedi vs Droid

[Rommie2006]

Huh???

Luke NEVER defeated Palpatine. He got trashed by Palpy force lightning(and if you go strictly by canon on screen evidence, he couldnt even block Palpy lightning!) It was Vader that trashed Palpy, pls dun tell me you cant remember???

A) Necron said Luke could have, not that he did.

B) Luke did not block the Force lightning in the sense that Yoda blocked Dooku's. He rather deflected it off of himself much like water deflects off of a plastic surface. But he could only do that for so long until he was worn out. This is stated rather explicitly in the novelization and is not in any way contradicted by what we see on screen, enshrining it as canon.

Luke defeated Vader, OK fine. As I said before my assertion is that Vader is a crippled old cyborg who is stiff as 3PO. Big deal... If he takes on Windu and wins, you got me... but then we'll never know now won't we?

As Necron said, style-over-substance fallacy. If Vader is a stiff, crippled cyborg, then the Naboo starfighters are more advanced than X-wings. It's bullshit based on flashy looks rather than rational assessment. As others have stated, if you want to live in a swordfight, you do not go around being flashy. That gets you killed in real life. In the OR, it's reasonable to conclude that the Jedi got used to dealing with blaster people. Perhaps for that, their techniques were fine. For actual lightsaber dueling, though, their technique was awful. Look at Dooku for a better comparison. Very few flashy moves, very little movement, and very exacting control. Yoda's bouncing around all over the place, but Dooku stays relatively motionless and holds off the greatest Jedi swordsman to ever live.

Oh pls this shows how little you know of AOTC.
For the record, Dooku was NOT holding his ground against bouncing Yoda in FACT he WAS LOSING TO YODA FAST. If you read the official script, it clearly states that Dooku was quickly losing the battle with Yoda and thus he had to flee. Now since on film evidence did not contract this, Yoda was owning Dooku!

And whatever you guys have on flashy saber techniques is irrelevant. Jedi like Yoda, QuiGon, ObiWan(in ep1 only) use Form 4 saber technique, and form 4 is SUPPOSED to be flashy. It uses a combination of acrobatics maneuvers and saber moves to fight a duel. There is NOTHING wrong with flashy maneuvers. It's only a matter of STYLE. Dooku wasnt flashy cos he was using Form 2.

[NecronLord]

I dont know...this all seems like OT wanking.

Is it really that hard to beleive that a guy who had been through what Vader had, physically, was just stiff and slow? For God's sake he lost part of his spine and was on an iron lung, sustained by the Darkside. He couldnt do half the stuff he used to, and guess what, he didnt do half the stuff he used to either.

Show where he is stiff and slow then. Go on. Where is he stiff and slow? Star wars artificial limbs, such as Luke's, are just as effective as the ones they replace. Why should vader be using cheap motors like C-3P0's?

SotF explicity says he is not sustained by the dark side of the force. The only example I can think of is the Dark Jedi 'Maw' in Jedi Knight.

And yeah so Mace may be older, thats REAL arguable using actor ages...but Mace wasnt on a resporator and had bionics and Dark Force power keeping him held together.

You guys are really just way, WAY, over estimating Vader and Luke and really wanking them here.

Because, yes, star wars bionics are shit. Just like Grevious'. Or Luke's. Or Lobot's... Wait...

[18-Till-I-Die]

Personally i agree with the fact Luke was a Jedi Kinight but inexpereinced. I was trying to say that, but i didnt word it very well. McC said it better. So yeah, conceeded.

But i still think you guys are wanking the Holy Hell out of Vader. He was no where near as agile or fast as his old self. Somersalts and stuff aside, Anakin did no such thing in any of the movies and is still faster and more agile if you watch.

And Dooku was loosing to Yoda, badly. Thats why he pulled that trick with the cieling collapsing and ran like a little girl. Yoda was about to run his ass through.

[Rommie2006]

Ok so Luke was fully trained, could have fooled me since he didnt seem to show much of it. I would've expected him to own Palpy more since he was, indeed, more powerful in terms of his Force application, as i understand it.

*sigh* Luke was a fully trained Jedi Knight. As a fully trained Jedi Knight, he could not stand up to both of them. Fuck, from the trailer it looks like Yoda can't stand up to Palpatine. The fact that with sufficient honing of his skills and, probably most importantly, centering in the light side, Luke was prophesied to defeat both of them should be sufficient evidence enough. Luke was more powerful, yes. But he was not experienced.

Look at it this way. You go to start a new job and you get trained to do that job. You are then qualified to do the job. However, as you work at the job, you get better at it over time until you can train the next newb to come along. Luke was powerful and trained, but not experienced. That's point. "No more training do you require." Yoda didn't say, "No more experience need you."

[/quote]

Heh. I give you and opposing view.
Luke was annointed as Jedi Knight cos YODA WAS GOING TO DIE.
The more likely truth is that Yoda had to tell Luke that he was ready(whether he was really a Jedi is questionable), as he needed to
1)Boost Luke confidence in the upcoming battle.
2)He is fucking DYING. He cant possibly teach anything more.
3)Luke is the fuckinG LAST of the Jedi(save Leia), so it is his last one-shot desperate attempt to win the war with Palpy.

So in reality Luke's training was far from complete. Why you think he seek out Jedi knowledge from ancient sites and holocrons in EU? Why do you think he has been challenged time and time again as being a lousy/fake Jedi knight/master by both HIMSELF, HIS STUDENTS and HIS ENEMY (i.e. everyone)

[NecronLord]

But i still think you guys are wanking the Holy Hell out of Vader. He was no where near as agile or fast as his old self. Somersalts and stuff aside, Anakin did no such thing in any of the movies and is still faster and more agile if you watch.

His technique is better. You don't understand. He's not jumping because he doesn't need to. He is using a winning sword fighting technique.

And Dooku was loosing to Yoda, badly. Thats why he pulled that trick with the cieling collapsing and ran like a little girl. Yoda was about to run his ass through.

Holds off does not mean win. I can barricade my door and hold off a police drug bust for a time. Does it mean they're going to give up and go home? Does it mean I'm winning? No. It means I'm buying time.

[McC]

MUHAHAHA??? Luke a trained JEDI???? LOL! ROTFLMAO.

omgwtfbbq Enough with your lame AOL speak, already.

Luke only "completed" his training cause Yoda died and could not train him no longer.

False. Luke left early in ESB, but in the intervening time between ESB and ROTJ, he honed his skills to the point where Yoda ("For 800 years have I trained Jedi. My own council will I keep on who is to be trained") says to him "No more training do you require. Already know you that which you need." Any further attempts to argue that Luke has not received complete martial training will be dismissed as trollish asshat behavior.

Do you know how LONG a Jedi training is? The younglings are taken in practically at birth, and it would seem that their apprenticeship doesnt end until their late teens.

Yes, and do you know how slow that training is? Luke's training was stripped down and far more intensive than the typical "train the class of younglings, get attached as a padawan to a knight, travel around the galaxy learning the fine art of Jedi" training routine.

All the training he ever received was Yoda's "theory lecture" on the force and its associated concepts. He knows NOTHING about lightsaber combat and techniques, and he would be ass raped by any Old Republic Jedi Knight.

We see glimpses of physical training, theory training, and we know that between the beginning of ESB and the end of ESB, Luke's lightsaber skills have increased dramatically. Your assertion is false.

You're joking right? I read Lucas changed the canon rules lately, but I am not buying into the shit that KOTOR is canon. You might as well say games like X-wing and TIE Fighter are cannon, and a ISD can be taken down by a few dozen proton torps.... sheesh. Game writers don't even do any proper SW research...

You read bullshit. The mechanics are irrelevant, the events depicted are not. Bastila, Carth, et. al. are canon characters, as are characters mentioned in the X-wing/TIE Fighter games such as the rebel pilot Farlander and Admiral Harkov.

I dont know...this all seems like OT wanking.

Funny, seemed to me like I was bitch-slapping EU minimalist attitudes.

Is it really that hard to beleive that a guy who had been through what Vader had, physically, was just stiff and slow? For God's sake he lost part of his spine and was on an iron lung, sustained by the Darkside. He couldnt do half the stuff he used to, and guess what, he didnt do half the stuff he used to either.

And Grevious was an organic head and spine. Your point? If Vader's injuries had been left without augmentation, you would have a claim. They were not. As such, you don't. Vader's cybernetic appendages at least replace if not enhance his original physical ability.

And yeah so Mace may be older, thats REAL arguable using actor ages...but Mace wasnt on a resporator and had bionics and Dark Force power keeping him held together.

Fair enough on the actor age point, but until there's a reason to think otherwise, it's a fair assessment.

And you are still on the kick about Vader falling apart without the Force. Vader might not have survived the augmentation without the Force, but his bionics are not a physical handicap.

You guys are really just way, WAY, over estimating Vader and Luke and really wanking them here.

No, you're being drawn into style-over-substance brainbugs that "flashy = better/more advanced." This goes back to the old Trek argument of "well, the Federation looks sleeker so clearly it's more advanced." It's bullshit.

[NecronLord]

I am XOCTAR! UBER JEDI OF DEATH.

I have two techniques available.

Technique one: Kendo ish moves with some force use added in. Provides good offensive power as well as solid defensive techniques.

Technique two: Prequel nonsense. This involves being flashy, guards that are completely useless, and exhausting myself with pointless acrobatics. Its offensive power is about as good as technique one's, and its defensive power far inferior.

Which am I going to use?

[NecronLord]

Luke was annointed as Jedi Knight cos YODA WAS GOING TO DIE.

"I see you have constructed a new lightsaber. Your skills are complete, indeed you are powerful as the emperor has foreseen." - Darth Vader.

[Rommie2006]

But i still think you guys are wanking the Holy Hell out of Vader. He was no where near as agile or fast as his old self. Somersalts and stuff aside, Anakin did no such thing in any of the movies and is still faster and more agile if you watch.

His technique is better. You don't understand. He's not jumping because he doesn't need to. He is using a winning sword fighting technique.

Anakin uses a combination of Form III and Form IV technique in PT. Vader supposedly uses Form V. There is NO evidence to suggest that one form is better than another. Perhaps with the exception of Form II(Dooku) and form 7(Mace). So perhaps he HAD to switch to Form V technique as he could not use Form III/IV due to his acute stiffness???

And Dooku was loosing to Yoda, badly. Thats why he pulled that trick with the cieling collapsing and ran like a little girl. Yoda was about to run his ass through.

Holds off does not mean win. I can barricade my door and hold off a police drug bust for a time. Does it mean they're going to give up and go home? Does it mean I'm winning? No. It means I'm buying time.

Clarification. Dooku was getting his ASS KICKED by yoda. Read the script for AOTC and you will know.

[18-Till-I-Die]

I'm not talking about Vader doing somersalts and shit, nor that he isnt flashy enough. I mean why cant he do half the shit young Obi could? Or Anakin? Why is his best trick some saber throw that was bested by inexperienced Luke fresh out of Jedi training? Palpy was more powerful than him, as an old half dead man, kicking Luke's ass rather well...yeah he wanted Luke to get angry and shit but...it just seems like a cop out.

I dont know i'm probably wrong, point conceeded.

But personally, i think you guys are really making Vader out to be more powerful than he is, and Luke to be a better fighter than he was EVER shown to be, and you're totally putting down Yoda for no reason. And also, SoD or not some of the rationalizations...pure cop outs, especially that stuff about Vader vs Old Obi.

[Rommie2006]

Luke was annointed as Jedi Knight cos YODA WAS GOING TO DIE.

"I see you have constructed a new lightsaber. Your skills are complete, indeed you are powerful as the emperor has foreseen." - Darth Vader.

I see. Your skills are complete. What skills? Your lightsaber building skills? LOL.
Oh please a quote from the movie isnt gonna get you anywhere. If you just use your eyes to observe and your head to think, you will see the great disparity between PT jedi and OT jedi.

[NecronLord]

Anakin uses a combination of Form III and Form IV technique in PT. Vader supposedly uses Form V. There is NO evidence to suggest that one form is better than another. Perhaps with the exception of Form II(Dooku) and form 7(Mace). So perhaps he HAD to switch to Form V technique as he could not use Form III/IV due to his acute stiffness???

Actually, the literature does indeed specify that some forms are superior to one another. The diplomat's form is manifestly inferiior to the others. It also specifies that he used Form V because it took advantage of his new augmetic strength.

Clarification. Dooku was getting his ASS KICKED by yoda. Read the script for AOTC and you will know.

He held Yoda off for a time. In that Yoda didn't simply cut him down on the first blow. Is this impossible for you to grasp?

[McC]

Oh pls this shows how little you know of AOTC.

I know! I'm losing an argument so I'll act like the people I'm arguing with don't know what they're talking about! It's not like they own the DVDs, do a lot of debating on this topic, or read the books or anything. It's not like McC even re-watched AOTC just last night.

Or is it? Hmm, maybe I'm fucked...

You are doing great as a n00b and a troll. Keep it up and you'll be VI'ed or banned within a month or so, if not less.

For the record, Dooku was NOT holding his ground against bouncing Yoda in FACT he WAS LOSING TO YODA FAST. If you read the official script, it clearly states that Dooku was quickly losing the battle with Yoda and thus he had to flee. Now since on film evidence did not contract this, Yoda was owning Dooku!

Yes, and do you know why? Because Yoda was exerting a fuckton of Force energy to attack Dooku rapidly and repeatedly from unpredictable vectors. Dooku was working fiercely to predict where Yoda was coming from. This is far different than flashy saber moves. It was because Yoda was moving so fucking fast and so fucking randomly that Dooku was getting tired out by keeping up with him.

And whatever you guys have on flashy saber techniques is irrelevant. Jedi like Yoda, QuiGon, ObiWan(in ep1 only) use Form 4 saber technique, and form 4 is SUPPOSED to be flashy. It uses a combination of acrobatics maneuvers and saber moves to fight a duel. There is NOTHING wrong with flashy maneuvers. It's only a matter of STYLE. Dooku wasnt flashy cos he was using Form 2.

Fine. You learn Form 4 saber fighting and I'll go learn Form 2, and we'll see who gets owned. No, really.

Jesus. Every single actual swordfighter to ever watch the fucking PT says that, while the moves look good, they will get you killed if you actually try them.

But i still think you guys are wanking the Holy Hell out of Vader. He was no where near as agile or fast as his old self. Somersalts and stuff aside, Anakin did no such thing in any of the movies and is still faster and more agile if you watch.

When he needs to be. Tell me when Vader needed to be faster or more agile than he was in the OT. No, go ahead. Take your time. I'll wait.

And Dooku was loosing to Yoda, badly. Thats why he pulled that trick with the cieling collapsing and ran like a little girl. Yoda was about to run his ass through.

See above.

Heh. I give you and opposing view.
Luke was annointed as Jedi Knight cos YODA WAS GOING TO DIE.

Last time I checked, Luke wasn't annointed a Jedi by Yoda when Yoda died. "Then I am a Jedi!" "Ohh! Not yet. One thing remains. Vader. You must confront Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi will you be." Yoda didn't give Luke a free pass 'cause he was dying and wanted to get it out of the way. Yoda told him what he needed.

It's on the fucking Death Star that Luke becomes a Jedi Knight.

So in reality Luke's training was far from complete. Why you think he seek out Jedi knowledge from ancient sites and holocrons in EU? Why do you think he has been challenged time and time again as being a lousy/fake Jedi knight/master by both HIMSELF, HIS STUDENTS and HIS ENEMY (i.e. everyone)

You're being a retard now. No one said Luke's overall Jedi training was complete. Necron and I are saying that his martial skills that he needs to fight the Emperor and Vader were deemed complete. This is like saying, "Oh, well, clearly Yoda and Mace Windu have nothing left to learn." If you seriously think once you get a diploma, you're done learning, then you're going to end up a pretty dumb piece of shit. Hey look, you're well on your way

[Karza]

Luke NEVER defeated Palpatine. He got trashed by Palpy force lightning(and if you go strictly by canon on screen evidence, he couldnt even block Palpy lightning!) It was Vader that trashed Palpy, pls dun tell me you cant remember???

He wasn't even trying to fight Palpatine. He threw the saber away and let Palpy zap him. Palpatines visions said that Luke would be able to destroy him and Vader, and both Yoda and Obi-Wan said that if he had stayed to complete the training before facing vader, he would have been able to defeat the Emperor.

Though in Dark Empire Luke fought the Emperor head on, and lost. And he was a master by then (at least according to himself).

[Shroom Man 777]

And what did Dooku do to Obi-Wan and Anakin? And what did Dooku do to Asaaji Ventress? And what did Dooku do to Grevious? He pwned them all! OMFG! KLAWN WARZ WANKZORS!!!! STIFF OLD FART!!!!! YODA DIE DIE DIE!!!! DIE DIE!!!!

Dooku was stronger than your average Jedi who did flashy acrobatic bullshit, yet he was a stiff old fart. The fact that he couldn't beat the strongest Jedi at that time means nothing, all those other circus freaks are meat to him and his REAL swordfighting technique.

[NecronLord]

I'm not talking about Vader doing somersalts and shit, nor that he isnt flashy enough. I mean why cant he do half the shit young Obi could? Or Anakin? Why is his best trick some saber throw that was bested by inexperienced Luke fresh out of Jedi training? Palpy was more powerful than him, as an old half dead man, kicking Luke's ass rather well...yeah he wanted Luke to get angry and shit but...it just seems like a cop out.

WTF? He was never aiming to kill his opponent. And saber throwing was not the most impressive trick he did. Deflecting blasters with his hand was.

I dont know i'm probably wrong, point conceeded.

A wise decision.

But personally, i think you guys are really making Vader out to be more powerful than he is, and Luke to be a better fighter than he was EVER shown to be, and you're totally putting down Yoda for no reason. And also, SoD or not some of the rationalizations...pure cop outs, especially that stuff about Vader vs Old Obi.

SoD is a cop out? It's the entire point of this site. If you don't like SoD, I suggest you quit SDN.

[The Original Nex]

Anakin uses a combination of Form III and Form IV technique in PT. Vader supposedly uses Form V. There is NO evidence to suggest that one form is better than another. Perhaps with the exception of Form II(Dooku) and form 7(Mace). So perhaps he HAD to switch to Form V technique as he could not use Form III/IV due to his acute stiffness???

Where did you hear this? Every source I've seen says that Anakin always used Form V.

Clarification. Dooku was getting his ASS KICKED by yoda. Read the script for AOTC and you will know.

Hmm, the film doesn't make this clear. Dooku fought two K.O. battles with Obi-wan and Anakin, and still was able to hold his own against Yoda, AND AT THE SAME TIME be able to topple a large pylon onto Obi and Ani.

It looked to me like Yoda was attempting to evade Dooku more than Dooku was trying to evade Yoda.

[Rommie2006]

Anakin uses a combination of Form III and Form IV technique in PT. Vader supposedly uses Form V. There is NO evidence to suggest that one form is better than another. Perhaps with the exception of Form II(Dooku) and form 7(Mace). So perhaps he HAD to switch to Form V technique as he could not use Form III/IV due to his acute stiffness???

Actually, the literature does indeed specify that some forms are superior to one another. The diplomat's form is manifestly inferiior to the others. It also specifies that he used Form V because it took advantage of his new augmetic strength.

But there is no evidence to suggest that Form 5 is more powerful than 3 or 4. Anakin never used Form 6.

Clarification. Dooku was getting his ASS KICKED by yoda. Read the script for AOTC and you will know.

He held Yoda off for a time. In that Yoda didn't simply cut him down on the first blow. Is this impossible for you to grasp?

So when Obi wan and Anakin was fighting Dooku and they did not die by the first blow they were holding off Dooku for a time too? If that is your definition so be it. If your definition of not holding off a Jedi means dying on the first slice, then I guess all Jedi can hold off even the greatest Sith lords. I've yet to see Jedi killed in the first opening move you know...

[Shroom Man 777]

I used to fence in college (not well, might I add, so I admit to not being an expert on this subject), and you know what our coach always told us? Keep it simple, stupid. Why waste time and energy on flashy, complicated shit, when a straight up lunge or parry is going to get the job done? If you ever watch Olympic level fencers, a lot of them are just doing basic moves, back and forth. Each move leads into the next as part of a greater strategy, like a chess game, but this strategy is built on the basics.

Also, what's more intimidating? The big scary guy who's jumping around on walls swinging four lightsabres, or the guy who just stands there and kills you effortlessly by raising his hand and making a fist? Flashy does not always equal better. Yes, Mace can do all sorts of amazing and creative stuff with the Force. But what happens when Grievous whips out all his sabres and tries to intimidate him? Mace gives him the Force equivallent of a bitch slap. Simple — but direct, powerful, and most importantly, effective.

Hey, tell that to the idiots, not me. I'm with you, friend.

[NecronLord]

Though in Dark Empire Luke fought the Emperor head on, and lost. And he was a master by then (at least according to himself).

Dark Empire Palpy is Wankatine. Wankatine is decanonised by Lucas' quotes on RotS, specifically, that the full limit of Palpatine's power is shown. No gigaton range force storms appear, thus, either only the clone has them, or wankatine is completely non canon. Either way, they have no bearing on the real Palpatine.

God I hate Wankatine.

[McC]

Anakin uses a combination of Form III and Form IV technique in PT. Vader supposedly uses Form V. There is NO evidence to suggest that one form is better than another. Perhaps with the exception of Form II(Dooku) and form 7(Mace). So perhaps he HAD to switch to Form V technique as he could not use Form III/IV due to his acute stiffness??

Or, you know, what Necron said: he got stronger due to augmented strength and chose a new form more suited to him.

"Making conclusions based on incomplete facts is fun!"

I'm not talking about Vader doing somersalts and shit, nor that he isnt flashy enough. I mean why cant he do half the shit young Obi could? Or Anakin? Why is his best trick some saber throw that was bested by inexperienced Luke fresh out of Jedi training? Palpy was more powerful than him, as an old half dead man, kicking Luke's ass rather well...yeah he wanted Luke to get angry and shit but...it just seems like a cop out.

Again, illustrate when he ever needed to do any of this stuff. When was it ever in his best interest to do a crazy move?

But personally, i think you guys are really making Vader out to be more powerful than he is, and Luke to be a better fighter than he was EVER shown to be, and you're totally putting down Yoda for no reason. And also, SoD or not some of the rationalizations...pure cop outs, especially that stuff about Vader vs Old Obi.

The Vader vs. Old Obi thing is my statement on the matter, and you are free to argue the point -- I'm not entirely convinced of my justification either It seemed pretty weak. But attributing it to Vader's inability? That's far weaker.

I see. Your skills are complete. What skills? Your lightsaber building skills? LOL.

Yes, asshat, because Vader's talking about Luke's lightsaber specifically Since Luke has constructed a new lightsaber, which ostensibly somehow involves the Force, Luke has demonstrated a sufficient level of skill to Vader in general that Vader can sense his skills are complete. Jesus.

Oh please a quote from the movie isnt gonna get you anywhere. If you just use your eyes to observe and your head to think, you will see the great disparity between PT jedi and OT jedi.

Yeah, 'cause when canon disagrees with you, you can just throw it out, right? I mean, it's not like quotes from the movies mean anything. They're not G-level canon and depictions of 'the truth' of the SW universe or anything.

You're just digging yourself deeper and deeper.

[The Original Nex]

And perhaps you could explain your reasoning as to why exactly Vader's bionics should make him less than he was before?

As McC said, if anything, they would enhance him.

Look at Grievous. Did his mechanical augmentation detract from his ability?

Did Luke's mechanical hand hinder his ability?

No, of course not, why should Vader's bionics be any different?

In ANH, Vader effortlessly lifts an average sized human a good 6 inches off the floor and then throws him into a wall. Sounds like his mechanical arm augmented his strength.

We know Grievous' bionics augmented his strength, speed and agility, why should Vader be any different?

[NecronLord]

Oh please a quote from the movie isnt gonna get you anywhere. If you just use your eyes to observe and your head to think, you will see the great disparity between PT jedi and OT jedi.

Yes. PT jedi use nonsensical moves - some of which come from tennis, of all places - which are of no practical use in a sword fight. OT jedi use real sword fighting techniques (barring Luke's last saber fighting ,which is basically using the thing as a club).

[18-Till-I-Die]

But personally, i think you guys are really making Vader out to be more powerful than he is, and Luke to be a better fighter than he was EVER shown to be, and you're totally putting down Yoda for no reason. And also, SoD or not some of the rationalizations...pure cop outs, especially that stuff about Vader vs Old Obi.

SoD is a cop out? It's the entire point of this site. If you don't like SoD, I suggest you quit SDN.

SoD isnt a cop out. Rationalizing something to help make Vader look uber-bad ass in a situation where, clearly, he wasnt is a cop out. More so it's wanking, and silly.

Oh he was confused that Old Obi wasnt agresssive, so he wasnt agressive...c'mon thats not SoD.

If i were to try and rationalize it id say this: Old Obi...was old and trying to fight a guy he knew could kick his ever-lovin' ass three ways from sunday with one hand. Vader was a guy who had been badly injured in his youth and while still very powerful, Force wise, was not at his prime anymore. Two guys, way past their prime, having a final duel. There, not so silly and wankish but just as good.

[Rommie2006]

Anakin uses a combination of Form III and Form IV technique in PT. Vader supposedly uses Form V. There is NO evidence to suggest that one form is better than another. Perhaps with the exception of Form II(Dooku) and form 7(Mace). So perhaps he HAD to switch to Form V technique as he could not use Form III/IV due to his acute stiffness???

Where did you hear this? Every source I've seen says that Anakin always used Form V.

Hmm... ok. I think you might be right. I might have gotten my facts mixed up. Anakin uses a combination of Form 5(single saber) and Form 4(Dual saber). If Anakin really uses Form 5/4 then it makes my case even easier... because Vader's Form 5 is obviously much inferior to Anakin's Form 5.

Clarification. Dooku was getting his ASS KICKED by yoda. Read the script for AOTC and you will know.

Hmm, the film doesn't make this clear. Dooku fought two K.O. battles with Obi-wan and Anakin, and still was able to hold his own against Yoda, AND AT THE SAME TIME be able to topple a large pylon onto Obi and Ani.

It looked to me like Yoda was attempting to evade Dooku more than Dooku was trying to evade Yoda.

The film wasnt that clear. The script was. READ THE DAMN SCRIPT. And since onfilm evidence DOES not contradict the script. Dooku was getting his ass kicked by Yoda.